Deportation of illegals?

[Asha'man]

I don't know whether I should make this a GOP, or what - maybe a mod could if it's appropriate.

Anyway, here's the issue. Here in America lately there's been squawking about how the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Services) hasn't been doing their job. They didn't deport that Jamaican kid who was one of the snipers when they had chances, and they continually fail to keep illegal aliens out. My main gripe is that they don't or won't come and get admittedly illegal Mexicans.

Recently the state of Colorado has started issuing matricula consular cards (or something like that - I think that's the right word?) to illegal aliens so they can get driver's licenses, health care, and other benefits formerly reserved for citizens. Now the last time I checked, the term "illegal" meant "not legal". If someone is an illegal alien, that should mean that they are not here with permission and must be deported by the INS.

What puzzles me is that we have literally crowds of illegal Mexicans waiting to get their cards, but the INS doesn't jump on this opportunity to round them up and send them back.

Now, please don't take this to mean that I don't like Mexicans - I know lots of Mexican folks and I like many of them a lot. But they all came into this country *legally*. If someone, anyone (I say Mexican because that's the nationality at hand) comes into another country illegally to live there, they should be deported as soon as they're discovered.

Opinions?

Ash

[Asha'man]

Hate to do this, but.......BTTT.

Is this topic that boring? :confused:

Ash

[Khamul]

Didn't really give anyone much to go on. Not a very controversial subject, imo.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

I don't know if it is not controversial enough, as much as it is just too hard a question to make a decision on.
It's a matter of all the American business people deciding to not be cheap, and pay all their workers a living wage so that Americans would want to work the jobs.
This is the same issue as companies going international in order to set up business in other countries where labor is cheaper.
Only in this case, the jobs these aliens do is necessarily inside our borders, such as crop harvest work or roofing houses.
It's a matter of whether we, the consumers really want to pay much higher prices for these things.
I suspect the problem could be solved if the business owners were forced to pay wages to illegals, equal to what they would pay American counterparts.

[Dr. Ransom]

If America was a socialist nation, you might be able to suggest that Mindy, though I doubt seriously that it would work at all.

I believe that America's borders should be open to almost anyone who would like to come and work/live (will the goal of eventually becoming a citizen) here. Here's the catch, I think that we also should be extremely strict with illegals. And not by punishing the American businesses, which are not only supporting our country, but much of the world's economy. Mindy, America has survived more immigration than almost any other modern country, and we did not do it with socialism, but with strong values in individual achievement, and an incredibly strong work ethic. Neither of which seem to be very prevalent now.

Right now one of my good friends in the dorms is from Russia. He wants almost nothing more than to be allowed to stay in America. He even tried to join the Army so that he could stay. But the INS refuses, and he’ll have to leave the US as soon as he’s finished with school. Ok now think about this, a great young Russian man who not only learned English almost perfectly, but is about to graduate from an American University, so he’s well educated, extremely well behaved (more that I can say for a lot of Americans…) and not only that, but due to his education he’s very valuable to this country. Ok, now on the other side, we have millions of Mexicans streaming across the border, no education, refuse to learn English (for the most part) and are a huge part of crime, drugs and violence increases in urban areas. Well, not only does the INS not care about this problem at all, but even Bush is trying to legalize all of them with no future plan on it not happening again! I burn with anger every time I even think about it. And I’m the one paying taxes to support these people! America is almost socialist already! It’s very very sad, and the only people truly damaged by it are the Mexicans, since they will be almost completely doomed to a low opportunity lifestyle here because of the present situation. And the more we try to pull up the ones who are already here, the more we will hurt them. The old axiom is very true in this situation “you can give a poor man a fish, or you can teach him to fish so he can eat the rest of his life.” I see no easy answer to this problem now, and I attach almost 100% of the blame to the radical left in America. Handouts are an easy way to get democratic votes in CA…. sad sad sad…..

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

And I think the problem is entirely 100% caused by the Radical Right - the capitalistic business system that craves cheap labor. That is the only reason illegals are here. The 'left' side socialistic minded people, only go in, out of compassion, to clean up the cruel mess after the illegals get here - when they see living conditions below our standard, and human rights abused by those capitalists.
I have absolutely no problem with legal immigration. There are many foreign people I know personally who are much better people than most Americans I've had to deal with (I rent rooms to foreign students here on visas) they are kind, generous, very considerate, responsible, caring, and are NEVER late with their rent. Every AMERICAN boarder I have had is just the opposite of that.
Anyway, what I'm saying is, either make the illegals leave by not letting our people take advantage of them, or legallize them and let them have the SAME rights as our own people. How is that socialist? It's only just. You can't have it both ways. It's not a matter of punishing businesses, it's a matter of the businesses needing to sacrifice greediness to do the right thing. ONLY HIRE LEGALS - those who get the legal benefits of any citizen! Then we will not have this 'illegals' problem.
(I also extrapolate this same reasoning for legalizing prostitution.)
P.S. I like Mexicans. Legal or Illegal. It's NOT the people that is the problem, but the covertly santioned illegal system. I grew up in Southern California. On the 'Mexican' (poor) side of town. Mexicans are hard working people and are not any more criminal than anyone else thrust into the trap of poverty. Didn't you ever read 'The Jungle'?
In my own city here, I've known many Mexican-Americans, including politicians, who are wonderful, caring and responsible people. Most of them are religious and humble. Why should the illegal ones learn English if they are not citizens here? And that's not true of all of them - only those who aren't good at it. Neither am I good at learning languages. I've tried year after year to learn Spanish, and I cannot.
As for our country being too Socialist - hah! not during Bush's reign! But however the far right rails against it, a fair share of socialistic policies is a GOOD thing. We need a balance of both Capitalism and Socialism to keep a see-saw balance to cover all bases - the side of opportunity to better yourself AND the side of taking care of and 'loving our fellow man' who is unable to get by on their own - some of whom get the double whammy of cruelly being taken advantage of while they are down. Why in the world would you want one system (C or S) totally exclusive of the other. Never would I want to see that happen! Both sides are evil alone, but together create an optimum good. (equalibrium).

[Dr. Ransom]

Mindy, we essentially agree on this issue: Illegal immigration should be stopped, Business should not be allowed to hire illegals, Legal Immigration should be promoted, and much more.

I think our differences mainly lie in the nature of capitalism;


And I think the problem is entirely 100% caused by the Radical Right - the capitalistic business system that craves cheap labor. That is the only reason illegals are here.

I think this is a rather simplistic statement, but whatever. I don't agree that capitalism is the case of illegal immigration, it is just one of many factors, including the freedom and opportunity in America as compared with Mexico. I think outright incompetence in the US government is the cause. This is the one area that I am very upset with Bush about, illegal immigration needs to stop. Illegal immigration is so prevalent now that many democrat politicians are not even using that phrase anymore. They now prefer to call them "undocumented immigrants." What other illegal activities could we change by giving them a better name? We could call Drug dealers "progressing entrepreneurs." The US is in trouble if it can't get its act together. Castro himself keeps emptying his jails and shipping them to the US so we can support them. This is crazy.
If the INS and the border patrol can't stop it, than I think that the US military should get involved. The Military’s job is to "protect the borders" of the US, and unfortunately nobody is.

[FREEDOM!]

They need to get those dirty Mexicans out of our country!! And the Cubans!!

[Dr. Ransom]

Although in this curcumstance (illegal immigration) I think You might be somewhat right Wallace, I have a feeling that you are very anti-imigration in gereral. As a conservative Christian, I can not agree with your view. Foreingers have much to offer this country when they are taught to abide by our laws and to some extent, our customs.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

get those dirty Mexicans out of our country!! And the Cubans!!

I hope WW isn't Christian. He'd be giving them a bad name by being so hateful. (Unless he's joking. I can't tell)

My Mother's family all imigrated here in 1906. My Dad's family came over in the 1800's and they helped settle South Dakota after the real 100% Americans were driven out onto reservations.)

[Dr. Ransom]

You're exactly right Mindy, in fact, I have a simular background. On my fathers side I come from the most pursecuted group in european history. The Mennonite Brethren, who are from the Anabaptist tradition. They were slautered by Protestant and Catholic alike for their religious belifes, namely believers baptism and separation of church and state. They came to American in within the past 150 yrs (not sure of the date).
I'm Scottish on my mothers side. In fact, my Grandpa grew up in Scottland and than moved to America because of the lack of jobs in Scottland at the time. He scored like one of the highest in the country on math, so he felt it was his duty to Scottland to move to Canada since he was bright enough to get a job in overseas easilly, that way less mathmatically inclined people in Scottland wouldn't be out of a job. I can't imagine using that reasoning today, but it shows the integrity a lot of Aliens have.

P.S. I don't think you can rightly refer to Native American's as the only "true" americans. America as a country would not exist if only the "true" Americans were here in 1776. Anyway, I see your point, but the atrocites comitted to Indians and Whites alike really don't affect this argument.

[FREEDOM!]

I am a Christian and i was partially joking! what i meant by dirty mexicans is those that are here illegally, and or those that are here selling cocane and other drugs. but i didnt mean to be so blunt. it just came out that way.

SORRY

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

WW - apology accepted, Whew!

Dr. R. Actually, I said '100%', not 'true'. I meant not some combination of other nationalities.
Like if you go to Hawaii, the people who live there are mostly not Hawaiians. There are probably no 100% Hawaiians left, but some still have 1/4 Hawaiian blood in them and are considered Hawaiian.

Hawaiians being the natives of the place, like our American Indians were the natives of our place.

(P.S. My name is Irish, as you can tell)

[Athelas]

Some actor was raising a hissy fit over the illegal aliens who die trying to cross the desert to get into this country, as if we are supposed to provide rest stops and clean bathrooms. The operative word here is illegal. If we wanted to throw open our borders to everyone, we would. We should not only deport all illegals, but charge their native countries for the cost of processing them.

[Thorin]

I have no problems with immigration (up to a certain extent). However, there has to be a time when our countries say "enough".

I also have a problem with those (legal immigrants, not just illegal) who come over to our "free countries" to continue their criminal enterprises because they know that at the most they will receive some jail time or at least, get a slap on the wrist. In their own countries, death would usually be the case. I'm thinking specifically on the coast of Canada where the Chinese population is booming in Vancouver (like San Francisco as well I'm sure). Chinese triad gangs operate all over, even in Alberta.

That irks me and it irks me even more because our country puts up with it and we have a bunch of bleeding hearts in the immigration offices. Hence, the reason why I was so incensed because Canada wouldn't turn over serial killer Charles Ng to the States to face capital murder charges....Bah! Ship em all away, don't clutter up our jails and take the tax payers money.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

Actually, I think we shouldn't be too hard on them. They are just people trying to survive, like all of us. There but for fortune, go I. I would prefer everyone get equal treatment, but, until then, I am also not so possesive of our privileges that I would not want to be helpful to, or forgiving of, or empathetic to, people less fortunate.

I still think that as long as we tolerate illegal prostitution (because is provides us a useful service) then we should tolerate illegal aliens (because they provide us a service). It is not my point to push for continued tolerance of something illegal, but for legalization of those things and gradual incorporation of fair treatment to those providing the services.
Especially since, those individuals or businesses hiring the illegals (or prostitutes), using illegal methods, avoiding the laws, and probably avoiding the taxes they should be paying, are the REAL immoral people in this picture.

The blame never seems to be put on the right people in evil systems, when those people might be you or me, or our neighbor, or people we just happen to like.
For instance - rich white American importers of cocaine or other drugs. Instead of casting our hateful venom on them, we blast the poor Columbians who grow it, or the poor urban kids who use it to kill thier mental pain.

In the same way, we shouldn't blast the illegal Mexicans themselves, anymore than you should blast a homeless person who is starving and steals a loaf of bread from a grocery stand.

He who is without sin should cast the first stone. That includes the sin of supporting these systems, by buying and eating the fruit, or buying the garments, or the less expensive roofs on our houses. Are each of us that pure? I know I for one, have indulged in afforable oranges!

[Athelas]

One of the repercussions of 9/11 is a tightening of our borders, and about time. I think a mine field between two towering electrified fences topped with razor wire, with motion-activated machine guns would really be the most effective way to go. No one would get across, and it would be suicidal to try. Perhaps the people who are in favor of illegal immigrants would like to share the cost of allowing them in; maybe even "adopt" one or two or three or fourteen into their homes; of course, three or more together makes a gang.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

I would not wish to live in this prison you are building for me. Especially if I'm stuck inside with such hateful people. The Mexicans did not fly any planes into any buildings. It's a falacy to apply the sins of one group of people to any other group.
Day by day, I am more and more seeing my own country turning into the real "Evil Empire".