PJ's Arwen more like Tolkien's Luthien?

[Nóm]

I just thought of one way that PJ's Arwen stuff actualy does fit in with Tolkien's little themes. Though it may not be sufficient to justify what PJ did, it is a similarily I failed to notice before.
In Tolkien's books we always have these powerful women like Luthien and Melian, who sit around protecting 1 or several people, but they never use themselves as real weapons. I mean, think what Meadhros, or Fingon would have done if they have the power of Luthien. I can not get past it. The power these women have seems something that can only use in certain situations? Well I don't buy that. I think the women are just different in his story and have no inclination to go kick some butt unless to save 1 person that they love. Futhermore the men seem to be perfectly fine with this. There is something in Tolkien's world were powerful women are expected not to be weapons. Now in PJ's movie we see this hero Arwen, and this powerful 'magic', why doesn't she join the fellowship? Because Luthien didn't try to kill Morgoth...that's why. So PJ has at least carried on the little theme of the powerful female who protects 1 or so people, but then hangs around her father's realm safe like she's at a park.
Luthien left Doriath against her fathers command, she snuck out into danger to help Beren, so maybe Arwen would have snuck out of Rivendell to aid Frodo and them.
(My major problem with this scene was the thought that Arwen wouldn't do this, and her father would never let her. Well I hadn't yet read The Silmarillion back in March when I first watched this movie)
Both elf-women are aiding in a quest that if fulfilled will enable them to marry the man that they love, and in both cases the quest is one that has other results which have enormous positive impact on all of Middle-earth. In Luthien's case the Silmaril eventualy went to Earendil.
The problem with all of this is:
1) Luthien would not have held her power over Beren in a way, that includes a sword to the neck :D
2) We have no implications that Arwen left Rivdendell against her fathers will. I rather think that she did though, even Elrond of the movie doesn't seem one to let his daughter go into danger. She wasn't even at the council, which implies (as I see it) that she did not have the same authority as the men.

[Ariana Undomiel]

Interesting thought.

- Ariana

[Talimon]

I have always taken the tale of Beren and Luthien into account when watching Arwen. Say what you will, but Luthiens actions make PJ's Arwen seem timid. And I think there is a fine line here: Arwen doesn't ever actually fight. Indeed, people seem to forget that the whole time she is fleeing in fear from the Nazgul. And at the very end her challenge to them is more of a taunt. I think it's a huge exageration when people call her "XenaArwen" and so on. No one would ever say "XenaLuthien".

[Ariana Undomiel]

I agree with Talimon.

- Ariana

[Nóm]

Luthien didn't exactly go around fighting either. It is true that Arwen is not as great as Luthien, my point is that if anyone wants to think that Arwen snuck out of Rivendell, they may be able to accept this scene better.
1) it could explain WHY she was there
2) it would explain why she hasn't been seen saying magic words again since then

[aragil]

As far as I know, Greenwood (the great) was the first on these boards to remark on the Luthien-Arwen connection. His opening post has been pruned, but he references it here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=24874#post24874).
For my part, I agree with it heartily, and I've taken that tac in my defense of Arwen on this thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1531), and more specifically I address Tolkien's view on the role of female elves in my quote here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=123431#post123431). In fact, I almost quoted JRRT's letter comparing Arwen to Luthien in my post here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=140136#post140136), which I note was read by both Talimon and Confusti-Nóm. And here I am lecturing again. Shame on me. Anyway, these are some links where this idea has been discussed a little bit before, if anybody wants to see some background before continuing here.

[Nóm]

Ah, Thanks aragil. I know people are aware of the connects between Arwen and Luthien but I did not know that someone had used Luthien's actions in helping Beren as an excuse for her going to rescue Frodo.

By Greenwood
It also shows that this descendent of Luthien Tinuviel is not afraid of the Ringwraiths. I also took it to be a challenge to the Ringwraiths, in response to which they attempt to cross the river and are swept away by the flood. I did not get a feeling of "Oh my God! They took me seriously and are coming over!" after Arwen issues this challenge, but rather that she calmly and immediately calls for the flood that is the Ringwraiths (temporary) undoing. I did think the next part of the scene was overdone.
...........[Next Quote]..........
I apologize if I am breaking any forum rules by lifting things from one of my own posts from another thread, but I just didn't feel like retyping the stuff below. It is from some posts I did on the "My precious ..." thread.

Anyway in defense of probably the most complained about change in the movie:

In the Silmarillion (p. 175 of the first American edition) we find the following passages: “Then Sauron yielded himself, and Luthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there .....” One paragraph later: “Then Luthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare ......” A few pages later on p. 178: “With that leaf she staunched Beren’s wound, and by her arts and by her love she healed him ....” Luthien sounds pretty powerful and active to me. Is it really so untrue to Tolkien’s vision to think that Luthien’s direct descendent Arwen, might have some of the same abilities?

It was not my intention to explain Arwen's ability to call the flood but rather to explain what she was even doing there in the first place. Which previously bothered me more than her calling the flood or showing off her sword.

[aragil]

To further your claim that Arwen would 'sneak' out of Rivendell like Luthien did in Menegroth, there is a bit in Tolkien's letters where he compares the two. I don't have Letters with me, but you can find the passage in question by looking up 'Arwen' in the index, and seeing where it says ~'as a reincarnation of Luthien'. What Tolkien says in the letter is that Arwen is not a reincarnation of Luthien, but a descendent very much like her in character and fate. To me this means that Tolkien would not have objected to having Arwen go out and help Aragorn bring the Hobbits in.

[Nóm]

This is what he says of them being of like charactor:
Letter 152
Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate.

[joxy]

Originally posted by aragil
....Tolkien says in the letter is that Arwen is not a reincarnation of Luthien, but a descendant very much like her in character and fate.
To me this means that Tolkien would not have objected to having Arwen go out and help Aragorn bring the Hobbits in.
And to me that looks like a very big jump!
He spent twenty years deciding, with great care, often changing his mind, but eventually DECIDING, who did what to whom.
I don't think PJ took into account all this fascinating and high-level analysis, though all credit to him if he did.
It looks more like a variation on the theme that Bakshi started: "Who's more interesting than that guy with the horse? Legolas?
No, that's been done, let's try Arwen, she's getting a lot of money, let's make better use of her".

[aragil]

I don't know how it could be a big jump.
1) It is in Luthien's character to do such a thing- because she does such things for Beren.
2) Arwen's character is 'very like' Luthien's. Not my words- Tolkien's, who spent from ~1917-1973 deciding what Luthien's character was like.
3) If it's in Luthien's character, and Arwen has a similar character to Luthien, it is probably in Arwen's character.
Where is the big jump here?
PJ has already linked Arwen to Luthien in the movie- see especially the Marsh scene. A wide jump would be saying that Glorfindel was replaced with Arwen because PJ was following Bakshi's trend.