Middle-earth is Our World

[Goro Shimura]

'Middle-earth,' by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.

-- J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter #165 To Houghton Mifflin Co.)

[Anamatar IV]

as you can see here:

http://members.tripod.com/john.ohara/images/Maps/Arda_2ndAge.jpg

middle earth/arda looks like our own. Hither lands/harad=africa, middle earth=europe...its all in there;)

[HerenIstarion]

I will add to the chorus here:

from letter 183 to W.H.Auden

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumenç, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance in time.


but the stress of my ad-on fall on "historical period is imagary'

congrats to myself on my first post with you (surfing this excellent online gathering for 2 days beforeplunging in :D)

[Goro Shimura]

From the LotR:

"Hobbits are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today.... Even in ancient days they were, as a rule, shy of 'the Big Folk', as they call us, and now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find." (Prologue page 19)

"It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered.... Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed...." (Prologue page 20-21)

"At this point our History begins." (Prologue: page 36)

[Maeglin]

Ohhh I was gonna use those quotes Goroshimura.:rolleyes:
But anyway I had always thought of the story of The Hobbit and LOTR talking place long ago in our world such as in medieval Europe or in Ancient Roman times up until a few years ago, when I came to the conclusion(based more or less on everyone else's thoughts) that it was not meant to take place in our world history at all, but in a totally different fantasy time period. But now you people are making me think about this again.....

[Goro Shimura]

Technologically it doesn't work, though.... Too many anachronisms and odd juxtapositions...

But the device is used even if it's not completely consistent:

"That the device adopted, that of giving its setting an historical air or feeling, and (an illusion of?) three dimensions, is successful, seems shown by the fact that several correspondents have treated it in the same way...." Tolkien, Letter #153

The Red Book of Westmarch is in the Louvre now, right??? :)

[j0n4th4n]

Anamatar, I've never seen that map before. What's the 'Dark Land' and 'Eastland' supposed to be like? Are they ever mentioned in any books?
Also, by the looks of the map, Harad doesn't seem to be part of Middle-Earth.. and what's that Romen place like??

[Thomas Baggins]

A most interesting link Anamatar, thank you for posting it.