Guild Auction - Judging and Poll

[Ancalagon]

Hello all,

The time has come again for a Guild to be auctioned off to the best bidder! The best being, he/she who can deliver a Guild that is first and foremost inspired by Tolkien learning and discussion, and who can encourage continuos developement and growth. It is also important that this Guild continues to be a debating Guild (against other Guilds) and retains the spirit in which it was designed.

The Guild of Scholar's Hall (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=39) which was Elbereth's Guild, is open to all members who wish to submit proposals in order to grow and develop the Guild. As I have described above, the thrust of the Guild must be centred around Tolkien discussion and debating.

Depending on how many people submit a proposal, a form of judging will be prescribed in the fairest possible manner.

Good Luck.

[Nóm]

As a Tolkien based guild I would like that this guild work together to increase/contribute to discussions taking place throughout the Works of J.R.R. Tolkien area, engage in debate, have guild discussions, and within the guild assist other readers.
When we notice questions at the forum that aren't being answered, we can pick some to tackle.
I envision that within the guild we would reseach certain topics, and place any new information in the proper thread. We would have designated researchers, though all members would be welcomed to contribute to the researching! The purpose of designating some researchers is just to avoid the "someone else will do it" mentality, which might result in slacking off.
We will also pick some questions of our own to research, and hold open dicussions within the guild. Also, Guild members interested in doing so could host lectures as was the costum in the old Guild of Scholars hall.

I would like for debate to be a major part of this guild! We would set up debates within the guild, and we would also debate against the Tolkienologists and Ost-in-Edhil! Not all guild members would be required to debate though.

It is important to me that new or struggling readers be helped out by those readers with more experience. It's also important that newer readers not be put off by more advanced type dicussion. I would like to put a deal of effort into maintaining an area where newer readers can have a free flowing discussion that would be overlooked by, and have questions answered by a more experienced member(s). The Guild would work to the best of it's ability to promote exchanges between people with all levels of experience.

1) debate
2) contribute group work throughout the forum
3) encourage/assist new readers
4) guild discussions/lectures

Why the wide variety of activities? Different people enjoy different areas; be it debating, learning, discussing, reseach and organization, helping others, or teaching others! But this is all about enjoying and studying Tolkien's books!
Though, nothing other than debating is written in stone, so these other ideas may be altered based on members' input, through trial and error, and depending upon the number of willing members.

[Maedhros]

I have always believed in the following principle once told me by a friend:
People who can THINK. Age is not important, but a good mind and a semblance of wit are. All discussions would be open for all. The only resquisite is that you like Tolkien, you don’t have to be an expert on him, because we will all learn together by reading and discussing.

Discussions will be arranged, depending on the books. There will be a section for LOTR, Hobbit, The Silmarillion – Home – Unfinished Tales, and Other Works. I have started a discussion about the Silmarillion that has gone from inside a guild (Tolk) to the Silmarillion forum. I would like to have 2 types of discussions: chapter by chapter of books and topic related ones. There are a lot of interesting things hidden in the books that are just waiting to be mentioned. I would like to try and begin a discussion about Bolt 1, it’s very beautiful. We could see the beginning of the Legendarium in action and see how it evolved in a more specific looking book by book.

I believe in the debates, and I personally have taken part in many of the inter guild debates. Debating is a very important activity because it makes the participants to think about certain things that otherwise they would have never done. Hopefully the members will be willing to try them out, and also to challenge and accept challenges from the other guilds. Debates also help individuals because it makes them think, it helps develop and refine their mental abilities and makes you research.

Scholars should be able to research. They should constantly be reading to find new things. The great thing about Tolkien, is that every time that you read something again, you will find something new, or something that you have missed. I would like to begin the research with Topics such as: The different versions of the Tale of the Sun and the Moon, and to do a “revised” Tale of Years, using all of the data available in Home. Members will choose the topics in which they wish to research of course.

Members who are new to Tolkien should not be afraid to use the guild. Why? Because the purpose is to learn, and what better way to learn than to have chapter by chapters or discussions about specific topics of the books? What a better place to post your questions than in a discussion of it? What a better place to see and look at different points of view and things that you may have missed?

I have seen in another guild the idea of mentors. Members of the Scholars guild will be encouraged to go out and aid members in Tolkien. You could choose a member in which you trust and respect and ask him to help you. Because we are in a Tolkien community any member of the forum may ask for a mentor or just someone to help them with certain matters.

The purpose of the Scholars guild should be to enjoy discussing Tolkien. The books are pure magic. It will be a place where ideas will flow freely. The guild will be a tribute to the works of Tolkien.

[Galdor]

Here is my idea for the guild.

One of the first things I thought of for the guild, is for it to be a place where a few people, learned in Tolkien lore, could answer questions from, and teach other TTF members.

As to the teaching, there would always be at least 2-3 classes running at a time. Each one would be taught by a Professor in the area of his/her expertise. They would range from the history of Gondor to a study on the writing styles of Tolkien. They would be rp based, so the Prof would give lectures, text, reading assignments etc. Obviously the Prof wouldn't give too much work, considering that most people on here are still in school and don't want to have piles of homework for their forum classes as well as their real school. Each class will work like they do in a real college, each will have a certain amount of credits, according to how much work will be involved in the class. People will also be graded, if you flunk the class you don't get the credits, etc. How many credits you have, will define between, freshmen, sophomores, juniors, and seniors. When people get a certain amount of credits, the graduate, I am trying to think up something to define Scholar's Hall grads form other members, I'm going to try and work something out with WM. There is one that has already started in the guild, though it is not what quite what I had in mind when I ask him to start it, it is very similar.
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6253

There would also be a thread where people could ask whatever they want, and it will be answered by one or more Profs. If the question has no definite answer, then the Profs will present all the different views. To keep the thread from getting cluttered, and so debates don't form, TTF members, would only be aloud to ask questions, and no one would be aloud to ask a question until the latest one has been answered.

A debating club would also be formed, there would be plenty of discussion threads, etc. Pretty much all of the kind of stuff you see in the Tolkienologgist(sp?) guild, will also be in the Scholar's Hall. The difference will be that the SH will be centered on the classes, and not on debating.

[Walter]

With a few of the discussions going on when the Guild of Scholars was formed I was rather happy, for I felt this was going to be a scholarly or scientific approach to Tolkien's literary works (e.g. the Origin of Orcs discussion at some point).

I am not sure this forum needs another "debating guild" and if anyway, maybe another name would seem more appropriate. Please don't get me wrong, but wouldn't a corner fit this forum well, where pure facts about Tolkien and his literary works can be collected, discussed and a knowledge-exchange without the usual "my opinion against your opinion"-approach can happen? If so, the "Guild of Scholars Hall" would seem a good name for such a guild.

But another question that would arise in this case is: Do we have enough people interested in such a corner and do we have enough people capable of providing enough "quality information" for such a corner?

Originally posted by Nóm
Sounds good, but this can be done in the corner of a guild. :DYeah sure, that's about as much as this issue seems to deserve around here... ;)
Hey Walter, why don't you try to get leadership over a guild?
Maybe you could open one that doesn't debate. I feel I could only lead a guild where I am really interested in its purposes and goals and where I fully qualify for a leadership, which leaves me to "The guild of Ignorants" maybe.

But seriously, as you will have noticed by now, I'm not at all interested in a debating guild and alas! I do not (yet) qualify for a serious Tolkien-scholars Guild, as I see it only Cian, Rumil (who seems to have disappeared) and maybe a handful of other members would qualify for this...

Originally posted by Nóm
Well until someone with that level of knowledge of Tolkien's writings steps forward and asks for a guild, I guess this will not happen.
So for now it is left up to those interested in running a guild to the best they can, and for this guild to include debate since there is a demand for it! If it includes debate as a main goal it excludes me as a guild leader, as I already expressed in more detail in our guild (OiE) the days when I delighted myself in practising the fine arts of dialectics are long gone...

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The best being, he/she who can deliver a Guild that is first and foremost inspired by Tolkien learning and discussion, and who can encourage continuos developement and growth. It is also important that this Guild continues to be a debating Guild (against other Guilds) and retains the spirit in which it was designed.
The Guild of Scholar's Hall (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=39) which was Elbereth's Guild, is open to all members who wish to submit proposals in order to grow and develop the Guild. As I have described above, the thrust of the Guild must be centred around Tolkien discussion and debating.

There are no proposed changes made in this statement designed to undermine the current activity in the Guild, if the successful applicant can retain the original integrity of the Guild, all the better. As long as Tolkien is the inspiration, it can promote discussion and knowledge and would be keen to debate with other Guilds, it will not be too far from where it is now. To be honest, it is up to the leader to drive the Guild forward in whatever style or manner they wish, as long as it retains these core values.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
It is also important that this Guild continues to be a debating Guild (against other Guilds) Just out of curiosity: Has this guild ever taken part in such a "debate"?

[Grond]

The Guild of Tolkien Scholars hasn't taken part in much of anything over the last few months; hence, the auction.

Rather than deleting old, unused or idle guilds and then opening and creating new ones, it was decided that we use what existing guilds were already here to energize the guild format we envision. Tolkienology has 50 members, so the interest is here. Actually, a guild is more easily managed with probably half that number. I would envision losing some of my membership to whoever wins this guild auction. This has been encouraged in the guild because it will allow existing senior members to advance their level of participation and share their expertise.

Walter, there may not be any true masters on the forum, but all of the guilds have many members with significant expertise not only in the words of this forum's namesake... but also in the ideas and philosophies he conveyed.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Grond
Walter, there may not be any true masters on the forum, but all of the guilds have many members with significant expertise not only in the words of this forum's namesake... but also in the ideas and philosophies he conveyed. You know the "scientific approach" I have been tought back then is to first study a given topic (i.e. the literary works of JRR Tolkien) thoroughly and then start on the underlying ideas and philosophies plus always being careful to keep the facts apart from the conclusions. Furthermore it seems only proper and just to me for everyone to build their own opinions about a given issue based on the pure facts rather than on the conclusions someone else has drawn...

Anyway, from Anc's and Grond's anwers I take it there is no interest at the moderators' side for a guild NOT taking part in debates but rather gathering knowledge and Tolkien-related information....

Maybe it would be helpful to share with us members what "guild format" you "envision". Or is it just: You play the flute and we follow?...

[Ancalagon]

Not to my knowledge.

Walter, you know full well my opinions on debates and their contribution to the spirit of the Guilds themselves. However, I will reiterate my feelings on why I think debates are healthy between Guilds.

First and foremost, seeking a scientific approach to understanding Tolkien is certainly an essential aspect to imparting knowledge among members, both in the forum general and within a Guild structure. However, by only taking a scientific approach it tends to compartmentalize the analysis, dry out and stifle the more elaborate imaginings members have regarding much of Tolkiens works.

Whereas the endless search for Tolkien understanding, approached via a systematic dissection of the facts can be scintillating in its own right, there is something to be said for allowing members the opportunity to diversify and develop their more fervent imaginings. Let's face it, even Scientists need to debate, contrive and counter the opinions of another.

I know you have stated clearly that your days of debating are long gone, but I am sure you would not want to impede those members within your Guild, under your leadership who are keen to confer and communicate on behalf of their Guild against others of likemind? Considering debating is a skill in itself and still only a small facet of the overall desire to seek knowledge, allow those within the Guild to decide whether they might wish to field a team worthy of the name the Guild and the one who leads it;)

[Grond]

Originally posted by Walter
You know the "scientific approach" I have been tought back then is to first study a given topic (i.e. the literary works of JRR Tolkien) thoroughly and then start on the underlying ideas and philosophies plus always being careful to keep the facts apart from the conclusions. Furthermore it seems only proper and just to me for everyone to build their own opinions about a given issue based on the pure facts rather than on the conclusions someone else has drawn...

Anyway, from Anc's and Grond's anwers I take it there is no interest at the moderators' side for a guild NOT taking part in debates but rather gathering knowledge and Tolkien-related information....

Maybe it would be helpful to share with us members what "guild format" you "envision". Or is it just: You play the flute and we follow?... I have always followed the "scientific approach" in my studies, whether they be Tolkien or Marconi. Our conflicts occur most often over our own individual definition of fact. To me, the author making a direct comment on an issue is enough to derive a scientifically sound conclusion. Your standards appear to be different than mine. I guess you would expect a clear description of Gandalf appearing before Eru. ;)

As for the other part of your post, a guild may be devoted to discussion and knowledge and still be a debating guild. Tolkienology is a debating guild but has devoted much more time and effort into the Silmarillion discussion and other topical discussions of Tolkien than they've spent in debating.

[Walter]

Anc, I would not want to impede any member from anything s/he wishes to do, I was merely asking whether there was some interest amongst the members for a guild which mainly focuses on different things than the currently flourishing guilds.

Given such an interest existed, and in the hope one of those very few members with sufficient knowledge to lead this guild would volunteer for that task, I wanted to offer to contribute and maybe help with the lower works...

I feel there is already enough room, interest and support on TTF for those who want to debate, so why not encourage a different path as well?

[Walter]

Originally posted by Grond
I have always followed the "scientific approach" in my studies, whether they be Tolkien or Marconi. Our conflicts occur most often over our own individual definition of fact. To me, the author making a direct comment on an issue is enough to derive a scientifically sound conclusion. Your standards appear to be different than mine. I guess you would expect a clear description of Gandalf appearing before Eru. ;) I never took offense in your conclusions per se, in most cases they make a lot of sense anyway, what I am frequently critizising is that in your posts it is often not quite clear where the facts end and the conclusions begin. This is IMO what often leads to a simplification of facts which often no longer represents the complexity of the situation (e.g. to statements like "The names of the Blue Wizards are Alatar and Pallando")

I prefer to provide the reader with the necessary facts to draw their own conclusions and am happy when theirs occasionally match my own. And when I throw in my own conclusions I try to make them recognizable as such....

[Walter]

Originally posted by Nóm
Ah but Walter, I'm sure you read my bid for this guild. Research and compilation of factual (not speculative) information is part of my plan for this guild. Nóm, if you take over this guild you will have my support in that area of activities if you want so, but - no offense intended - have you ever consulted the microfilm-archives at Marquette or have you subscribed Vinyar Tengwar? Me neither, hence I said I feel I do not qualify as a guild leader for a guild with the quality standards I had in mind...

[Grond]

Well, Walter... If you would get someone who had done those things and was willing to make a bid for the Guild of Tolkien Scholars and wanted the guild to be exclusively a research/discussion guild, you would have my whole-hearted support. I'm waiting for that person to submit a bid.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Walter
Anc, I would not want to impede any member from anything s/he wishes to do, I was merely asking whether there was some interest amongst the members for a guild which mainly focuses on different things than the currently flourishing guilds.
I feel there is already enough room, interest and support on TTF for those who want to debate, so why not encourage a different path as well?

I do not disagree with you at all in this matter Walter, I think you have an extrmely valid point and I would only seek to encourage you (or anyone else) to develop it further. I would also point out, if memebers within the Guild had absolutely no interest in debating with other Guilds.........so be it, nothing is compulsory in the forum (or Guilds) other than the rules of conduct.

In the matter of developing a different approach, you are always free to use Ost-in-Edhil as a ground for any new ideas you wish to try. It is your Guild also and I would positively encourage you to seek new forms of discussion within.

[Walter]

Wow, I didn't expect that much support for my ideas, thanks Anc and Grond... :)

[Grond]

Walter, I think Anc and I have always been supportive of the idea of any "true scholar" having a place where the deepest delvings into Tolkien could occur. Those places would certainly not be "fun" in the traditional sense of the word. They would be fun for people who really want to get into the deepest recesses of Tolkien's world. I have always claimed to be inadequate for any such endeavor because, aside from knowing J. R. R. T.'s published writings pretty well, HoMe is new to me and the Elvish languages and other things that you have cited in the past, are beyond me.

You find the leader and we'll find a place for him. :)

[Ancalagon]

Walter, while we are on the subject of Science! I wanted to share this page with you, a simple layout, but some intriguing and fascinating research which I constantly check in on for progress. Not really relevant to anything we have been discussing, but excellent all the same

Lalaith (http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~lalaith/M-earth.html)

[Ancalagon]

Please find included a poll for members to add their vote for whichever submission they feel would best serve The Guild of Scholars.

A selection of 3 judges will also add their vote below, simply by adding the name of the individual they feel presented the best case. No judge will be revealed until they post their vote, so as to avoid anyone trying to bribe them with money or positions of power within the Guild;)

All 3 votes and the results of the poll will decide the new GuildMaster of The Guild of Scholars.

Good Luck.

[PRH]

My judge's vote goes to Maedhros's bid.

[Ithrynluin]

I was in doubt whether to choose Maedhros or Nóm. Both presented their bids very well and the prospect of having either of them as guild leaders is very exciting.
However, Maedhros has more expertise in Tolkien's works and that is why I have to choose him.

[Lhunithiliel]

GO, MAEDHROS :D :D !!!!!!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Although all three applicants have presented excellent ideas for the Guild, I have chosen Maedhros as I am especially interested in his chapter by chapter discussion mode which should be interesting to all participants whatever their level of expertise. However, many of the points made by the other applicants are of great interest as well and it is to be hoped that their vision will also be tapped, if not immediately then at some future time.

As for debates: this is an excellent means by which various - and in some cases unusual - viewpoints may be explored. I am not all that aware of the presentation of debates in the Guilds being new to the forum and only recently entering into the area, but I would hope that debate forums are limited to that: the debate itself with whatever postings are necessary by the moderator(s). I find it very confusing in a thread when extraneous postings commenting upon the ongoing discussion are inserted. Debate threads should be (are being now?) limited to the exchanges themselves (with moderator comments as necessary) until the final judgment is made regarding the winner of the debate.

As to the other matters - say a chapter by chapter study - that, too, should be limited to comments germane to the matter at hand and in time or length as well lest the interested parties never get past Chapter 1! We do have a tendency to "chew" things to death and I consider myself one of the greatest "sinners" in that particular situation. It would also be useful to have someone monitoring the thread who can put a stop to endless regurgitation of the same point/question etc. I have noted that we do tend to repeat ourselves, going over the same thing again and again even after a legitimate answer has been forthcoming. This dooms a thread to death by dullness. Itis possible to receive an answer to a question. However, simply because one does not like the answer is not an excuse to ask the question again (and again) in hopes of receiving a more acceptable one.

In any event, good luck to Maedhros and my congratulations to all the participants for being worthy of consideration for this position! :)

[Gothmog]

Mrs. Maggott,

In answer to your questions about debates. As one who has participated in or Judged a few of the debates, I can assure you that such threads are limited to the debate itself. Any extraneous posts would be removed and if pertinent would be placed in a separate commentary thread. This has been done on one debate that I know of.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Thank you. I am thinking of another forum where debates are interspersed with comments, very cute and fun, but confusing if one is participating in or judging a debate.

As I said, I have not had an opportunity to "look in" at a debate in a Guild, but as soon as I can see "daylight", I shall endeavor to do so. Ignorance is easily cured, but not always immediately.

Again, thank you. ;)

[Ancalagon]

Many thanks to all those who put forward their ideas and to all those who judged them. Congratulations to Maedhros.

The Guild of Scholars is now yours to oder as you will. I will open a thread stating that fact within the Guild and you may begin to introduce your plans in addition to introducing yourself to its exisiting members.

[Maedhros]

I would like to thank all of the judges and the people who voted on the poll. I also would like to thank the other participants of the bid, their plans are very good and hopefully I can barrow some of their ideas.
I would like to thank the opportunity and the confidence that has been given to me to run the Scholar's Guild, I will try and make it the place I envisioned it to be.:)

[Ithrynluin]

Yet again I congratulate you,Maedhros. And good luck with your new guild!