Ost-in-Edhil & TolkienWiki

[Ancalagon]

As many of you are aware, we here at Ost-in-Edhil have considerable links to The TolkienWiki (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi), founded by Walter. Many of our members contribute to the Wiki, in the hope of improving access for all to an encyclopedia of Tolkien lore. As with every creative endeavour, continued support is needed to develop and grow the knowledge therein.

I had envisaged a joint venture, between Ost-in-Edhil and The Tolkien Wiki that would ultimately satisfy our thirst for, and access to knowledge. My goal is to actually try and deliver a more scientific approach to providing the Wiki with solid, factual information while debating and deliberating among ourselves the content and putting together our own encyclopedia of research. This would be in keeping with the considerations some members have expressed regarding this Guilds approach to researching Tolkien. I tend to agree and feel a more concerted effort be made in contributions. I guess it might be considered a miniature along the lines of 'The Silmarillion - Proposed Draft, Canon Studies and Theories' currently in production at The Barrow-Downs (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi) only focusing on single items, places, events etc.

I would hope all members would become involved, both internally and externally to Ost-in-Edhil. As much of this is a repeat of the discussion previously held on the matter, I would ask then all those who wish to contribute to add their names, and any further ideas on approaching the task. Walter, I hope will add his voice to this and additional ideas on where we go from here.

[Turgon]

Personally as a (not very active) member of both the The Tolkien Wiki and The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, I think this is an idea that will bring profit to all parties involved - especially to those participating. A great task I might add for Ost-in-Edhil to host, as I believe it could benefit the guild greatly.

Unfortunately my own mind is inclined more towards wild speculation than scientific reasoning so I don't think I will of much use in this great enterprise, but you have my whole-hearted support. I might even be the tea-boy if you ask nicely...:)

[Ancalagon]

Turgon, I can empathise with you entirely regarding 'wild speculation' as it is a driving force behind many of my own interpretations of Tolkiens works. However, the luxury afforded us all by Tolkien is that much of his work can easily be considered canon, and this is where we must first focus our attention. Those subjects that are more difficult to clarify can follow later, and as such, will ensure healthy debate among us all.

[Walter]

As I already stated in the other thread I greatly appreciate "Anc's idea" of a joint venture between TTF and TheTolkienWiki (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org) and of course this project will have my wholehearted support.

For those of you not already familiar with the Wiki I will try to give a short overview about it here.

The different sections are:


A basic compendium with brief descriptions of the names, persons, places, things, etc. in Middle-earth and Arda:
The Compendium (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?FolderCompendium)
An overview about books of J.R.R. Tolkien or other Middle-earth related books:
Tolkien Books (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?TolkienBooks) and All Books (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?FolderBooks)
Information about JRR Tolkien and authors of other Tolkien- or Middle-earth related books:
The Authors (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?FolderAuthors)
An FAQ section with questions and answers about Tolkien and Middle-earth:
FAQ (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?FAQ)
Essays and Summaries about all possible Tolkien-related topics:
The Essays (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?FolderEssays)


The basic "Compendium" and the "Books" and "Authors" sections contain the necessary background information (at the moment only some 800 pages), whereas the "FAQ" and the "Essays and Summaries" sections represent the main goal of the "Knowledgebase".

The TolkienWiki is still "in the craddle", at the moment it consists of no more than 1077 pages in total (whereas some two- or threethousand pages might be necessary for the Compendium alone in the final stage, in other words the TolkienWiki is a "long term project".

One of the advantages of the Wiki software is, that it automatically generates links to existing pages when they are referenced in the text of a page, meaning that e.g. in an essay all words which represent Compendium entries are created as links to the respective pages, so that the reader can easily look up terms, s/he is not familiar with, during the reading process.

Another advantage is that - basically - any member can edit every page, which makes it a "tool of choice" when several people are working on one project.

----

For a joint venture - like this is going to be - it would appear necessary that we organize the work some. What we need first and foremost are a handful of people (at least two or three) who would be willing to busy themselves with this organization- and scheduling- process.

The next step would be to generate a list of the necessary tasks (e.g. a list of all FAQs that could or should be answered in the Wiki or a list of various topics we would provide an essay/summaries for). Then we could appoint one - or more - volunteers to those tasks/topics that can easily be answered by one (or a few).

At the same time we needed to schedule discussions about those topics that will have to be debated about (and also consider those topics where such discussions have already been held here).

When this is done, we need volunteers to summarize the results of the discussions/debates and finally we need volunteers to do a final editing and layout for the Wiki pages.

----

Last not least I would like to mention that the Wiki is not "Walter's Wiki" like it has been referred to, but is the common property of all it's members and contributors (some TTF members have already contributed much more there, than I have; Chymaera, DGoeij, GamilZirak, Lhunithiliel, Turgon (in alphabethical order) deserve special thanks) it is - and will remain such - a non profit/no advertizing site, dedicated to the interested Tolkien reader or Tolkien scholar.

[Arvedui]

I would love to be more active on the Wiki, like for instance in a way that Walter proposes. Unfortunately, my time is limited. Therefore, my contribution wil have to be on a participating level, and not organizing so far. If something changes, I will be happy to do more.

[Lhunithiliel]

Gentlemen, I've been thinking on a possible way of oganizing the TTF-TW interaction and this is what I've come up to. This I've posted in TW as well.

1/It should be asked from the TTF-Webmaster that he grants a special place in the TTF, something like the space for a guild. This section could be called directly "TTF-TW Joint Venture".... or sth.similar.

2/ Within this space subsections should be open corresponding to :

- either TW Folders.....or

- J.R.R.Tolkien main books

3/ Within each subsection contributors may then open threads for reading/discussions or/and debates; pure data threads etc.

4/ Three-four people both from TTF and TW will run and take care of this process and personally occupy themselves with the extracting the essence of the information provided in these threads and prepare it as a data-sheet to be ready-entered into the respective TW data-base. They of course may/can/will/should assign this work to other people they chose.

Within the space provided for the TTF-TW Joint Venture a lot of activities could be organized as for example: essay contests; best on-topic quote contests etc. I suppose that the most valuable contributions should be done in debates and essays.

Well, this is how I picture it out. You're welcome to comment, agree and disagree with this order and organization. :)

[Ancalagon]

Interesting idea Lhun, but for the meantime, until we see how it progresses, the project will remain within the confines of the Guild. The rest of the proposals seem fine by me.

[Maedhros]

I guess it might be considered a miniature along the lines of 'The Silmarillion - Proposed Draft, Canon Studies and Theories' currently in production at The Barrow-Downs only focusing on single items, places, events etc.
I think that all forum members can help with the developing of the Tolkien Wiki, and also that people would get interested in the Revised Silmarillion Project. And also, why not work on both.

[Lhunithiliel]

It's OK, Mighty Dragon! ;) :D
Any other comments and ESPECIALLY suggestions?
I think, if this thing is to be started running, particular steps should be taken asap :)

[Walter]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Interesting idea Lhun, but for the meantime, until we see how it progresses, the project will remain within the confines of the Guild. Well what's that supposed to mean, I wonder?

Without having spoken with Lhun about her suggestions, they represent mostly the ideas Helmut and I came up with when we first discussed HOW this joint venture project could be initiated in a way so it would be likely to succeed and create a maximum of synergy effects.

Frankly, if this project has only been initiated to increase activity and traffic for OiE and if this will about be where the "official support" ends, it is IMO not likely to survive, let alone succeed. Another thing that comes to mind is, that some who already participate now, are either no guild members and/or are for some reasons not quite partial of some of the guild-policies.

So - to sum it up - it seems we may have Anc's wholehearted support - whatever the motives may be - but for the moment this seems all the "official support" we can hope for.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Any other comments and ESPECIALLY suggestions?
I think, if this thing is to be started running, particular steps should be taken asap My first suggestion is we find the 2-3 volunteers to start organizing it...

Anyone?

[Walter]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I think that all forum members can help with the developing of the Tolkien Wiki, and also that people would get interested in the Revised Silmarillion Project. And also, why not work on both. Ognuno tocca l'aqua nel suo mulino... ;)

Indeed the "Revised Silmarillion" is an interesting and very engaged project, but whereas it requires a rather high level of expertise of each participant, the "overall level" of expertise required to contribute in this joint venture project is much lower...

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
I would hope all members would become involved, both internally and externally to Ost-in-Edhil.

Frankly, if this project has only been initiated to increase activity and traffic for OiE and if this will about be where the "official support" ends, it is IMO not likely to survive, let alone succeed. Another thing that comes to mind is, that some who already participate now, are either no guild members and/or are for some reasons not quite partial of some of the guild-policies. So - to sum it up - it seems we may have Anc's wholehearted support - whatever the motives may be - but for the moment this seems all the "official support" we can hope for.


******EDITED OF ALL ANGER QUOTES BECAUSE I AM CALM AND SHORT_TEMPERED*******.

My goal was to get this thing up and running within Ost-in-Edhil, both to give us someting to work towards and to ensure a steady flow of information to the Wiki as a result. If it proved successful within this small section of the forum, then maybe we could have a case for seeking more involved links on a larger scale with the main forum. However, for us to make a case to Webmaster, is it not prudent to begin at the beginning and prove that we can make it work.

In truth Walter, like it or not, I had thought this was something that you might value, in addition to my own commitment to support it and see it grow. However, your snide remarks truly feel like a low-blow which I am trying to come to terms with understanding, and from which I am still reeling. If you think I have an agenda, then yes, you are absolutely correct, because I told in my email that I wanted to see an increase in activity and ownership within Ost-in-Edhil, while at the same time delivering tangible results and support to the Wiki on behalf of the forum. *******SAME AS ABOVE****

Where do you expect me to go from here?

[Walter]

Anc, I'm sorry, but I think I better refrain from replying to your last post in detail, I just wish you had chosen less insulting words to express your feelings...

I will leave it up to you to decide "where you would like to go from here", but I have brought this Wiki to life and thanks to the contributions and help of not much more than a dozen of contributors it has now grown - within 4 months - to about 1100 pages with interesting and meaningful contents and about 1000 page accesses each day. And all this without ANY direct support of TTF as a whole, or the guild or yourself.

Of course I appreciate any form of joint venture, but I would like to make clear that the wiki is not at the mercy of you, or the guild, or TTF.
If we find a serious way to cooperate the members of both TTF and the wiki will gain, if not it will be a loss for all of us.

To start the project within the guild and see how it develops is one thing, but "declaring" it will be restrained to the confines of OiE - which is how I read it - is anotherone and this statement of you was IMO counterproductive...

----
P.S. Yes, I know that this is not the wisest of all possible replies, but I'm not immune to such insults either...

[Ancalagon]

I'm also sorry Walter, for I expressed my feelings exactly as they were, (and still are) after reading your post. I have absolute admiration for your Wiki venture, but feel that you have sorely misjudged my intentions in seeking to reach some type of joint initiative. I am not immune to insults either as you can see clearly by my response.

I apologise for letting my anger get the better of me, but as I am not Webmaster of this forum, the best I can offer is to use this Guild as a starting point. My 'declaration' states 'but for the meantime, until we see how it progresses, the project will remain within the confines of the Guild' is a practical suggestion and is a testing ground for this idea. If it worked, then we could try and break out with the Webmasters support, once evidence supported it. No, the Wiki does not rely on TTF, nor does TTF rely on the Wiki, which is why a joint effort is beneficial to both without reading anything else into it.

I want this to work. I would hope that we can draw members in from around the forum to participate. I regret that you and I have not been able to understand each other more clearly. I still stand by my desire to see this work, not because I beleive the Wiki needs our help, but because it ought to have been a great starting point for bridging both sites.

[Walter]

I'm sorry too that there seem to have been some misunderstandings and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

However, having reread my post from this morning in the way you emphasized it, I would like point out, that it wasn't meant to question YOUR willingness or motives to support the project, I meant to say that whatever the motives may be, we won't get any more "official support from TTF" for the moment..., I guess the interpunctuation was misleading...

As you know, after the general approval of the original idea of the knowledgebase, I somehow "expected" a little more support from TTF when I actually started with the wiki, and I still don't quite seem to understand the motives, why this hasn't happened (well, maybe I do, but that's a different story...)

Let's bury the grudge...

[Maedhros]

Wow, big misunderstanding in the waters.
I don't think that Anc meant that the Wiki was going to be restricted to only OIE, I think that he meant to use OiE as a kind of rallying place where the members would submit work to the Wiki, at least that is how I see it. I don't think that there is a way to monopolize the Wiki.
I have to apologize to Walter because I owe the Wiki a few bios of a certain family, that I will do, but I'm kind of busy in work right now.
I can always go to the Wiki and create a new page and post my bios and essays, as I have done with the Maedhros one.

[Ancalagon]

I agree. I am not usually the grudge-bearing type anyhoo;)

I am sorry if I misunderstood your intentions, though in hindsight I understand now your meaning. I am certain that in order to show this can work, we need to initialise the project and get a joint work in progress. We can then approach TTF WM and make suggestions on how to further the venture between the two sites. This would involve seeking to write a code that highlights links to aspects of the knowledgebase, though how this might work in practice is for smarter people than me to work out.

Yet, the fact remains, that it must start somewhere, and this is as good a place as any. The starting point would be to continue to add to the pages, the content and knowledge from as many sources as we can entice. As this moves forward (as it has already been doing in the Wiki) then we can ask WM to look at the proposals of linking up. You know, that's a good idea. A 'knowledge base' similar to that found at MICROSOFT.com and other sites. We could host it at THELORDOFTHERINGS.com, drive it with a SQL database, so various search parameters could be entered. Sounds like we have a nice project to work on here.
So, we know WM supported the idea. All I seek to do now is progress the knowledge in tune with how the Wiki has been doing, and then get WM to look at it from this end.

[Walter]

okay, deal...

[Lhunithiliel]

Finally!!!!
I was running out of pop-corn, guys!
What a show!

Why fight? All this energy should have been used for creativity..IMO.

Anyway, as a "spectator" from aside let me tell you that the final result out of your discussion has been nul. We are at the same spot where it all started.

Walt, if volunteers are needed for activity - you know I'm at disposal of the TTF-TW Joint Venture. :)

The question stays, however - WHAT will this activity be EXACTLY?!

Anc, you are the host of OiE - you should be the person to suggest a clear organization chart for the project - i.e. HOW EXACTLY will it work from here - from TTF?

Besides, while I was "listening" to you, I noticed a few remarks that now please allow me to comment on.
Walter:Indeed the "Revised Silmarillion" is an interesting and very engaged project, but whereas it requires a rather high level of expertise of each participant, the "overall level" of expertise required to contribute in this joint venture project is much lower...
I may not be familliar with the grand B-D project but I deffinitely don't think that the TTF-TW-project requires less knowledge and/or expertise! :eek: :mad:

The next remark will go without any quotes, because it's something that came to my mind while watching the fight (i.e. reading your comments).... I personally appreciate and respect the fact that Anc is the OiE Guild-Master and Walter is the TW-Master, but you, gentlemen, have to finally decide one thing: - Do you really need anybody's opinion on the matter or you two make up the start and only then involve other participants. If my statement is a bit unclear,let me refrain in fewer words (though too direct and maybe I'll risk hurting somebody's feelings) - The idea is yours, so work your b***s on it. You should make it work and make it attractive and only then you'll get results, meaning - more participants, more opinions and contributions.... IMO. :rolleyes: :p

[Walter]

Lhun, really, throwing popcorn at two people argu...errrm...discussing something is not nice! ;)

And of course I am happy you volunteered, I am going to open up two or three necessary threads for the organization.

And while the result may have been "nil" - which I doubt - it has served to "clear the air" some, especially after the talk Anc and I had lateron.

As for my comment about the level of expertise: What I mean is, that in order to partake in the New Sil project one needs to know the Sil very well (IIRC the initiator suggests to have read it 3-4 times) and also all other Me-related works (incl HoMe) reasonably well. Whereas to contribute to the Wiki (e.g for making a simple but good compendium-entry) it sure is not necessary to know all Me related books well (it sure helps, but it isn't a necessity). So - every help will be appreciated, no matter what the level of knowledge is, there'll be plenty to do for everyone who wants to take part.

My last comment goes on your "Walter is the TW-Master" statement: This simply is not the case I am only the "host" and as such I consider myself as "primus inter pares" (since I was the first starting to realize the knowledgebase-project) nothing more nothing less. As for the rest every wiki member has the same rights, your voice counts as much as mine, that's one of the basic principles of every (well almost) WikiWeb, aside from the primary purpose of each Wiki, a WikiWeb in general is also an "experiment in democracy" (since everyone could change or even delete each page) and those systems work very well for several years (e.g. Wards Wiki or the UseMod Wiki) now.

[Lhunithiliel]

Walt, the popcorns were for me! :D
I like eating hot pop-corns while watching a nice sh... arg...discussion! ;)
And of course I am happy you volunteered, I am going to open up two or three necessary threads for the organization.
My big mouth! :eek:
Anyway, I see there is a result now and I'm going to carefully read everything! I would like to help as much as my knowledge permits it.

I still can't agree on the issue of the "less expertise"-needed for the TTF-TW-project, though! !
You are saying that I, just like every other TW-member, have the authority at the TW.....So, I, personally, would not like to see in the TW anything less than an "expertise"-level entry. I'm thinking of these people, who will look for the needed information in the TW. They have to find profound and exact data there! And this can be provided only by people, who have profound and true knowledge in Tolkien (father & son) writings! Don't you agree? Of course, I'm referring to the Folders like Compendium, Books, Events, Kings...etc. The "Essays & Summaries"-section is sth.else. This could be used by people, who have just "met" Tolkien and those summaries and/or essays can only light up their interest towards the writings even more.

I'm going to get my pop-corns....;) :D and read the new threads.

[Ancalagon]

Note for any forum members who have linked in from my Sig; you can add your names and level of participation in here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7610)

[Walter]

The TTF-TTW Joint venture project has resulted so far in some 40 pages at the Wiki, most of which represent top quality standards. Hence I would like to thank everyone who has lent us a helping hand.

Furthermore it has produced some creative ideas (like page structure and layout) which will help improve the overall quality of the knowledgebase in the future.

What I do not quite understand, though, is the fact that most pages - even those which are lengthy and/or required a lot of work have been created rather by single members than by some joint efforts of the various teams.

I wonder how we could/should proceed now, does that mean that we should give up on the idea of the teams and just go on working, everyone what he prefers to do, or does the team-idea need some re-considering?

[Arvedui]

Well, the progress of the Essays/Summaries squad seemed to have died during x-mas holidays. I can't say why, but we didn't quite seem to get a common agreement on how to do it,or what to start up with.
I'll check with the others.