A change I'd like to see

[PRH]

SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T READ LOTR!:

In the book, at Sammath Naur the final destruction of the Ring is brought about by a chance or fated "accident" where Gollum falls into the fire. I always found this a little bit silly and I don't think it's going to translate to the screen very well at all. It's quite cartoonish and I don't think they can pull it off in the serious live-action setting without it coming off too hokey. Hokey is not what we want at the climax of the climatic chapter of this huge 3-part cinematic saga.

In one of JRRT's letters (#246) Tolkien talks about all the other ways things at Sammath Naur might have gone down if certain chance occurences might not have happened. One of these was - 'what if Sam had recognized what exactly Gollum was struggling with when he found F&S asleep at the entrance to the tunnel?' If not for Sam's harsh words to Gollum at that point, Gollum would probably not have betrayed them to Shelob and the journey would've continued:

The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

I really like this better and I think it would play out much better in the movie than the book ending. It would also tie up the loose plot thread of Gollum being torn between his lust for the Ring and his love for Frodo. Plus, I think it can still work the same without changing anything else (i.e. Gollum still betrays them to Shelob). The only downside is that it does change Gollum's character from an 'unrepentant to the end' to 'repents on his deathbed' type character. I think that's probably also a good change. Thoughts?

[Talimon]

I agree. I think the main idea behind Gollum "destroying" the ring, as it is in the book, is to drive home the point of pity. I am thinking here specifically of Sams scene right there at the top where he is about to kill Gollum, but ultimately has pity on him. This is in my opinion one of the most important scenes in the book, because had Sam not had pity the ring would never have been destroyed.

If I understand you correctly you are talking about having Gollum still bite off the ring, but then decide to sacrifice himself and jump into the fire? This could be an interesting interpretation of Tolkien, and personally I think this would be a nice change as well. But I think it's important to remember the import of that scene: it's about the triumph of forgiveness. I think Frodo's words in that chapter to Sam, after the ring is destroyed, is proof of this. To have Gollums repentance be the focus there might undermine the greater theme. But then again it might not.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
If I understand you correctly you are talking about having Gollum still bite off the ring, but then decide to sacrifice himself and jump into the fire?
Exactly.

You know, this change would probably drive home the point of pity and forgiveness even more than the book. In the book, F&S take pity on Gollum and therefore he is still alive to facilitate this "chance" occurence of falling into the fire. If Gollum were to sacrifice himself, it would be because F&S's pity had had an effect on Gollum's heart. Though he could not free himself of the force of the desire for the Ring, his graciousness and love for Frodo would be another force strong enough to bring about the destruction of the Ring. Gollum needed it, he didn't need to live with it. In fact, if he had lived on in possesion of the Ring, his life would not have improved at all.

So, if Gollum did willingly jump, would it diminish Frodo's hero role (compared to the book) at all? Though he never actually tossed the Ring into the fire himself, Frodo was considered to have fulfilled the quest (in fact history showed that he did - consider the Silmarillion's account of the quest). If Gollum willingly rather than accidentally had completed the quest, how much would this take away from Frodo's part? Enough to make historical note of it? Certainly enough to credit Gollum with something noble.

[Talimon]

If Gollum were to sacrifice himself, it would be because F&S's pity had had an effect on Gollum's heart.

Good point.

Though he could not free himself of the force of the desire for the Ring, his graciousness and love for Frodo would be another force strong enough to bring about the destruction of the Ring. Gollum needed it, he didn't need to live with it. In fact, if he had lived on in possesion of the Ring, his life would not have improved at all.

I basically agree, except on one small point: I think depicting that scene with Gollum having love for Frodo would would be pushing it. The way I'm imagining it is like this: Gollum bites it off, and Frodo falls to the ground. Sam runs up to Frodo. Gollum, after innitially celebrating his ecstacy, sees now the pitiful state that Frodo is in, on the floor, still reeling from the effect of the ring. Seeing its evil, and perhaps even seeing himself for once, he falls into the cracks of doom.

An alternative would be to actually have Gollum put on the ring. He'd then have a vision of the battle at the black gates, and death taking place there. That would shift to Saurons eye, and in Gollums fear he'd take the ring off. Then he'd see Frodo, and with that he'd make his decision.

Personally I rather have him drop the ring, and in his lust go after it. But I guess that doesn't show much in the name of repentance. There is just something not right about having him commit suicide. Yes, it's a sacrifice, but still...

Another point worth mentioning is that perhaps Tolkien wanted Gollums greed to be the element that destroys the ring. This way, we see that evil destroys itself. But maybe not :).

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
I basically agree, except on one small point: I think depicting that scene with Gollum having love for Frodo would would be pushing it.
Well I wasn't envisioning a goodbye kiss exactly.

The way I'm imagining it is like this: Gollum bites it off, and Frodo falls to the ground. Sam runs up to Frodo. Gollum, after innitially celebrating his ecstacy, sees now the pitiful state that Frodo is in, on the floor, still reeling from the effect of the ring. Seeing its evil, and perhaps even seeing himself for once, he falls into the cracks of doom.That's basically what I was thinking. Very reminiscient in some ways of the end of Les Miserables now that I think about it.

An alternative would be to actually have Gollum put on the ring. He'd then have a vision of the battle at the black gates, and death taking place there. That would shift to Saurons eye, and in Gollums fear he'd take the ring off. Then he'd see Frodo, and with that he'd make his decision.
Cool idea, but I think that'd really stretch the moment out too long. It would have to happen in pretty short order I think.

Another point worth mentioning is that perhaps Tolkien wanted Gollums greed to be the element that destroys the ring. This way, we see that evil destroys itself. But maybe not :).
Interesting point...greed destroying itself. Never thought of it that way. Except, was greed really destroying itself (i.e. an act of greed caused Gollum's fall) - or was it just by chance that Gollum fell (and he just as easily could've gotten away with the same act of greed)?

If they do end up doing it in the book fashion, it's gotta happen quick. I hope he's not dancing around singing for any length of time before his fall (the BBC Radio Drama strung this out for 50 seconds and that Rankin Bass cartoon made it about 25 seconds).

[Talimon]

If they do end up doing it in the book fashion, it's gotta happen quick. I hope he's not dancing around singing for any length of time before his fall (the BBC Radio Drama strung this out for 50 seconds and that Rankin Bass cartoon made it about 25 seconds).

Off-topic, but WTF were the Rankin & Bass directors thinking?!? Frodo and Sam get to Mt. Doom before the battle of Pellenor Fields is even over?!? Pure genius, pure genius... :rolleyes:

[PRH]

Where there's a whip, there's a way....

[Talimon]

Originally posted by PRH
Where there's a whip, there's a way....

Don't even start...

[Ariana Undomiel]

I don't think they should change such a major element in the story. Gollum to the last gave into his greed and it was because of that the ring was destroyed. It would almost be like saying the Gollum, who had had the ring way longer than Frodo, in the end had a stronger will to destroy the ring than Frodo did. I wouldn't like that at all.

- Ariana

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
I don't think they should change such a major element in the story. Gollum to the last gave into his greed and it was because of that the ring was destroyed. It would almost be like saying the Gollum, who had had the ring way longer than Frodo, in the end had a stronger will to destroy the ring than Frodo did. I wouldn't like that at all. Ariana

Exactly. PJ has over emphasised the hold that the ring has on Gollum, to the point that he has a total split personality. He's going to be able to resist the ring's power and throw himself in when Frodo hasn't even been under the power of the ring 6 times as long?? I highly doubt it. It is even less believable with the way PJ has set it up. The length of time in the Shire was pretty much the next day according to the movie. How could the ring have more power over Frodo and not Gollum? Now SAM doing that would make sense...

Tolkien wrote it a certain way. I like how it was said earlier. Evil destroys itself. To make Gollum a tragic hero is too Hollywood and moving too far away from the meaning of Tolkien. I feel that this is where Jackson is going to go, however. After Frodo and Sam's conversation about Gollum and Frodo saying, "I need to believe that he can be saved" sets it up something fierce.

[PRH]

What about Tolkien's letter? If not for the chance slipping Gollum may well have jumped in.

Also, to have Gollum jump is absolutely NOT to have him overcome the Ring's hold on him in any way. He can't give it up. He must have it. He doesn't need to live though... Frodo can't give up the Ring, but he still has plenty desire to live.

Would you rather PJ had Gollum slip on a banana peel? Given his record for slapstick thus far, that's what we're likely to be in for if Gollum's fall is accidental as per the book.

[Gandalf White]

Exactly. PJ has over emphasised the hold that the ring has on Gollum, to the point that he has a total split personality.
I wasn't aware of this.


Anyway, I don't know how Jackson's gonna have it go. It's an interesting theory PRH, but I don't know if the Tolkien inside me can really take it.

[Calimehtar]

Also, to have Gollum jump is absolutely NOT to have him overcome the Ring's hold on him in any way. He can't give it up. He must have it. He doesn't need to live though... Frodo can't give up the Ring, but he still has plenty desire to live.

But for him to jump he will be knowing he is destroying his "PRECIOUS" and the ring would not allow him to do that.

[BelDain]

Smeagol can't be the hero. Sam has to be!