The Real Theme

[Goro Shimura]

"I do not think that even Power or Domination is the real centre of my story. It provides the theme of a War, about something dark and threatening enough to seem at that time of supreme importance, but that is mainly a 'setting' for characters to show themselves. The real theme for me is about something much more permanent and difficult: Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race 'doomed' to leave and seemingly loose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete." (Tolkien, Letter #186)


Tolkien makes such statements repeatedly in his letters... and yet few critics seem to have grip on this. Was Tolkien such a bad writer that he failed to get his primary point across? Or... are critics so blinded by their own opinions that they fail to see the obvious?

[Snaga]

The latter is closer.

I would say the writer, once his work is published loses control of his work. Thus he may comment on it, and his insight may be privileged but still open to dispute.

The other point is that the theme he describes is more central perhaps to his entire mythology than it is to Lord of the Rings.

To me the real theme is that however awesome and complete your plans are, never underestimate the ability for some hairy-footed little wretch to mess it up for you. But that's just me.:rolleyes:

[Goro Shimura]

I think one reason why we tend to overlook the Death/Immortality themes in LotR is because the book is focused on the hobbits perspective. This narrative choice forced the tale of Aragorn and Arwen to end up being tucked away in the appendices-- and that tale is of course where those themes culminate and climax. (Never mind that to really appreciate that short passage you practically have to understand the entire Silmarillion!!)

[Lady_of_Gondor]

I agree with what was said about the author losing control of the interpretation of his book once published. I think that for those who read the Lord of the Rings once and believe that they truly understand the story and all its underlying themes, the idea of good versus evil may just be good enough. What I mean is who can deney that that is one of the most valiant of all themes.
But for those who love the story just that much more, and read it many times over and explore the more complicated works concerning middle earth.....good versus evil just doesn't cut it anymore. When we look at Middle Earth as a whole, and the races as a whole, and NOT the individual characters presented to us in LotR, the theme of immortality begins to show it true importance.
The point is that the critics are not the true lovers of the story. Tolkien was a true lover of the story, for he made it. We are true lovers of the story, for we explore it. The critics are not, for they merely read and comment on it. It's difficult for those who merely read to understand so complicated a work and all of its many themes. So perhaps Tolkien wasn't clear enough on this theme. I don't believe that matters all that much. Because if he sees it, and much of his audience sees it, then he has achieved what he set out to achieve.

[Goro Shimura]

"Since the whole matter from begining to end is mainly concerned with the relation of Creation to making and sub-creation (and subsidiarily with the related matter of 'mortality'), it must be clear that references to these things are not casual, but fundamental...."

Tolkien, Letter #153


SO...

It's not about Power... it just looks like the book is mainly about Power and Domination. It's really about Death and Immortality.

But it's not mainly about Death and Immortaility... the whole of the legendarium is concerned primarily with the relation of of Creation to sub-creation.


Got that? :eek:

(Is anyone out there capable of elucidating these three ideas and explaining how they relate?)

[Goro Shimura]

Tolkien's saying "Certainly it has no allegorical intentions..." does not mean that his work is has no themes. Only a hack could write a work of the size of LotR without a large set of themes in it that could provide ample room for discussion in a thread such as this. Tolkien was no hack.

But even the passage you cite indicates that there is a metaphysical framework behind the work: "It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'."



As Tolkien began writing the Lord of the Rings in the late thirties he wrote a manifesto of sorts: the essay "On Fairy Stories." In it he discusses his personal theory of Fairy Stories... what makes them work... what is essential in them:And lastly there is the oldest and deepest desire, the Great Escape: the Escape from Death. Fairy-stories provide many examples and modes of this -- which might be called the genuine escapist, or (I would say) fugitive spirit. But so do other stories (notably those of scientific inspiration), and so do other studies. Fairy-stories are made by men and not by fairies. The Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness.... Few lessons are taught more clearly in them than the burden of that kind of immortality, or rather endless serial living, to which the "fugitive" would fly. For the fairy-story is apt to teach such things, of old and still today.The above passage might not make as much sense out of context... but I hope it is enough to show that Tolkien believed the themes of Mortality and Imortaility to be somehow fundamental to the Fairy-Stories-- and that those themes were on his mind as he began to undertake the writing of his own great Fairy-Story.

Any principle that Tolkien believed to be fundamental to the art of Fairy-Story cannot be disclaimed by a citation of any of his numerous "I Hate Allegory" letters.

Finally... the idea of Creation is the of course the primary theme dealt with in the opening to the Silmarilion. The notion of "sub-creation" is explored in the histories of the Valar and the elves. And Tolkien's work is itself a sub-creation.


I confess I am not a literary critic. (I never did well in my English classes.) But if there's anyone out there would like to help unravel these themes and the ideas behind them... please post here and enlighten us!!!!

[Goro Shimura]

I agree that "The Real Theme" cannot be boiled down to just one simple statement.

I posted the original Tolkien Quote in this thread because it was provocative enough to (hopefully) start a good discussion. And of course I later found some other comments from Tolkien about the theme(s) of the work that needed to be reconciled with the original quote.

(My "Got That?" was meant to be a chummy sort of "wow... that's a real mouthful and it's is getting really complicated quick" sort of thing. It was not meant to be a brusque challenge to everyone that might have something to add to the discussion!)

At any rate... it's my hope that this thread would be more of a discussion thread than a debate thread. Any complete treatment of the theme question would require much more than a single post-- it needs more of an essay.

Such a hypothetical essay would IMO have to (at least) address the following themes:

1) Power/Domination
2) Death/Immortality
3) Creation/Sub-Creation

It's not my goal here to force a particular view of Tolkien on anyone. The themes I mention are clearly in his works... yet I don't see them discussed much here in the forum. That's why I bring them up here! I welcome anyone that wishes to add more themes to the thread. I especially welcome the input of anyone that would like to take a stab at elucidating and elaborating on the meaning and relationship of all the various themes.

I think that open-minded Tolkienologists/Tolkienophiles that are interested in discovering more about Tolkien's intentions would be very interested in delving into the three I've mentioned: how they appear in his works... and what he wrote about them in his essays and letters.

[Ancalagon]

Goro,

I know you always like my tuppence worth in matters concerning Tolkien and theology;)

I wonder often about the theme that permeates Tolkiens work. One cannot deny the fact that it is simply a world, not unlike our own yet one without religion as we would understand it. It does have an underlying theme that presents us with identifiable traits common among our own race. I think the best way to describe this is through the 7 deadly Sins and 7 Heavenly Virtues.

Take each aspect of his work, for every action there is an opposite reaction, each facet of his work presents us with a simplified, mirror image of our own strengths and weaknesses. Of course, for one man to do any more than present us with the basics of a society is difficult, hence the fact it is a lifetimes work. Yet, there is no doubt he has shown us both the darkest reccesses and brightest attributes relevant to our very existence. However, it is deliberately not Christian as each of the sins and virtues affect every faith, creed, race and society. Even the Ainur do not escape these facets that one would think is subject only to the Children.

My belief is that there is no other theme in his work other than to present us with a mirror image of all that is positive and negative in our psychological nature. In doing so, he has shown each character to be specifically one-demensional, not to remove their uniqueness, but to show us with clarity, every facet of our own humanity. Not each character can be so simply labelled though, certainly many have more than one side to them, however, one usually tends to stand out in his/her character.

Pride - Feanor
Faith - Sam
Envy - Saruman
Hope - Frodo
Gluttony - Shelob
Charity - Finrod Felagund
Lust - Dwarves (consider the Nauglamir)
Fortitude - Aragorn
Wrath - Heck, we have a War named after it due to The Wrath of the Valar.

I have intermingled deliberately, however I can assume that anyone could easily continue to identify 'justice, temperance and prudence, aswell as 'greed and sloth'.

I know this may be an over-simplified way of understanding Tolkiens themes, but if you consider how each aspect of his work conveys these traits, then all else seems built around them.

As I said, my tuppence worth and ever up for debate;)

[Ancalagon]

Anybody?

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
One cannot deny the fact that it is simply a world, not unlike our own yet one without religion as we would understand it. Well... I don't know that I would completely agree with this.

IF we grant that the Numenoreans were monotheists with an Hebraic theology... whose race/tribe began as part of a Divine Plane for the enoblement of humanity... and who had kings whose line would never fail even through all eternity...

THEN the religion of Middle Earth is one with whom any student of the Bible is immediately familiar!!! :D :D :D

Pride - Feanor
Faith - Sam
Envy - Saruman
Hope - Frodo
Gluttony - Shelob
Charity - Finrod Felagund
Lust - Dwarves (consider the Nauglamir)
Fortitude - Aragorn
Wrath - Heck, we have a War named after it due to The Wrath of the Valar.

I have intermingled deliberately, however I can assume that anyone could easily continue to identify 'justice, temperance and prudence, aswell as 'greed and sloth'.
Wow... you realize of course that you're fitting the work(s) into an allegorical framework. Hmm.... Shouldn't someone cry "Foul!" for that?

Here's another question....

Is my above thumbnail sketch an allegory as well? Or is it something else?

[Marenautha]

I don't have a whole lot to add to this discussion-though I have very much enjoyed reading each of your messages.
I would just like to share what Tolkein wrote for me personaly.
I do think that he speaks to us on an individual level. Tolkien was an amazing scholar and theologian long before he wrote the books and had to have known that each reader would come away with his/her own feelings and theories. With this acknowledgement before hand, the writer can free himself to truely infuse everything he beleives, loves, and feels, into his work. If writen in a way as masterful as Tolkien's, this in turn, frees the reader to explore his world, but not be bound to it.

I said all this to share the experience that he has given me personally, as a Christian and also as an idealist woman, seeking the best life for myself and my family. From his visions, the morals and spiritual beleives that I already have, are not only confermed, but incouraged. He has used his writings, to speak to me, in the same way that the book of Revelation has been used for it's readers-for encouragement and instilling hope of things to come.

I think that my prospective is more likely to be shared by Christians, but I have talked with many people that do not share my beleifs, but do share my opions on Tolkien's writings.

I thank you all for this chance to talk about Tolkien. This is a great forum!

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Marenautha
...If writen in a way as masterful as Tolkien's, this in turn, frees the reader to explore his world, but not be bound to it.

...From his visions, the morals and spiritual beleives that I already have, are not only confermed, but incouraged. He has used his writings, to speak to me, in the same way that the book of Revelation has been used for it's readers-for encouragement and instilling hope of things to come.Welcome to the forum!

Those are two interesting points there.

Here's a simple example illustrating them:

A Creationist could read the Lord of the Rings and find his beliefs not only confirmed, but encouraged. But non-Creationists can read the story without feeling that Tolkien is beating them over the head with Creationist precepts.

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Walter
Well, IF there is ONE theme that permeates Tolkien's work it is IMO "Lit. and Lang.". Almost every single name carries its own story. I think Tolkien spent more time contemplating the names (of characters and places) than on the plot of the story.

But to a point I agree with Goroshimura, if we put enough premisses of the Judeo-Christian religions into the story and omit everything else that would contradict this view, there is some chance that we get to the result that Tolkien could not have anything else in mind with the LotR than to provide us with "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work"... Are you reading T.A. Shippey? Great writer!!

Is Lit. and Lang. a theme of the work?? Seems to me to have more of a technical view of the work in mind.... But maybe theme has a broader definition than what I'm thinking.

To be more specific:

We know that hobbits came to exist because of a word... "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit." It all started right there. But the fact that hobbits were created from the inspiration of an odd sound and it's spelling... that doesn't really have much to do with the Themes of The Hobbit?

Or does it?

[Marenautha]

That's exactly what I'm saying, thank you! And thank you for the welcome Goro. I'll be back with you guys soon but I'll be away for the rest of the night.

[Goro Shimura]

Originally posted by Walter
If you have difficulties with the term, the OED has a good definition of "Theme", so does Webster's dictionary and so do most Latin dictionaries ("Thema"). Yeah, but Tolkien was pretty critical of the O.E.D. Can we trust it? ;)


There he could elaborate on and present his ideas and interpretations about certain developments of the English language without the burdens and boundaries of making academic publications and the unavoidable criticism of fellow linguists whenever new or uncommon ideas or approaches to certain topics are presented, which are not commonly approved.So there's some kind of hidden philological message in LotR?

That doesn't quite jive with "It is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political."

Hmmm....

IMO... both the linguistic and theological ideas/themes/notions/premises are about equally present in his works. Those two sets of ideas are the nuts and bolts from which the basic stucture of the setting is derived. Sort of the chemical composition of the props, as it were.

If lit. and lang. was the seed... then Tolkien's theological premises were the soil. (Carrying the analogy forward... what could the water have been??)

[Goro Shimura]

One suggestion for the "water:"

(just hit me!)

Seed: Lit and Lang
Soil: Theological premises
Water: Shock at the consequences of Modernity: WWI, the destruction of rural England, the "inexorable" march of technology.


IMO, it is the dynamic interaction of these three threads that gives tLotR its depth.

[Mrs. Maggott]

The problem with Tolkien's works about Arda are not that there are no themes, but that there are so many themes that it is difficult to sort them out or separate them one from another. In fact, it may not be possible to do that anyway since often they merge and then separate several times throughout the stories.

Tolkien's work is like a great tapastry and anyone who has ever looked closely at fabric will see that it is composed of threads, some going one way, others going at right angles to the first. All are woven together to form the whole. Some threads may vary in color or even in texture. Some may be woven "loosely" to make a gauze-like translucent fabric, others may be woven more tightly and be heavier, producing a thicker, opaque fabric. But all the threads are necessary to produce the finished fabric.

However, there are main "threads" running through Tolkien's work. Love is one and not just "love" in the sense that we generally consider that emotion. Love of self is just as strong - and sometimes stronger - than love of even the most adored companion. Melkor becomes Morgoth because he loves himself more than he loves anyone or anything else - and he is not the only one who does so.

Death and immortality is another main thread. Tolkien calls death man's "gift", not his punishment. Why? Because it is intimated (and certainly would have been part of Tolkien's own belief system) that man is able to grow ever closer to his Creator because he leaves this world and its limitations which opens countless possibilities. On the other hand, the elves are forever doomed to live within the confines of this world while this world lasts - and I think that this is the most important point. As the Fellowship is finally broken, Gadriel replies to Treebeard's question as to whether they will ever meet again: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!"

Christians (or at least the Orthodox and R.Catholics) believe that at the time of the Last Judgment, the World will be made anew, the Kingdom of God in which all that was fair and good will once again exist. After all, man was made for this world and the world for man. The things that most of us love are the same as those things that the elves love and that they attempt to keep from being destroyed by the passage of time in the mortal lands. It was for this reason that the Elven Rings were made and not as means of gaining power over others or for strength in war.

It may be that at the end of all things, the sundering of the Children of Illuvatar may cease as the lands that presently lie under the wave are lifted up and all that was beautiful and good restored. But, of course, Tolkien makes no pronouncement on that and as far as the elves in his story are concerned, those of their kind who choose mortality are lost to them forever. And yet, Galadriel's statement to Treebeard (a mortal creature) bears the promise that such may not be the case.

[BlackCaptain]

When i was reading the books, and as i am, ive found that I think the central theme of LOTR is the diminishing of the Elves, and the rise of Men. And this makes an already hard quest even harder, because Gondor, the main realm of Men is failing. Thank god for the Rohirrim.

I think Mrs.Maggot put it right. There is no main theme. Too many themes.

LOTR, is about the rise and fall of an enemy. What strength is left in this enemy falls into the hands of our main character Frodo. As the enemy regains strength, our main character is in a quest to destroy it. At the peak of the enemys power, and the near unavoidable victory of him, Frodo sneaks behind his back, and destroys him. (thats how i generaly see it)

A 8th grade bully is bullying a bunch of 5th graders. The 5th graders take a low blow and the bully falls. The strongest 5th graders flee and leave the weak 5th graders because they fear that they could get hurt when the bully recovers strength. Another 8th grader (gandalf), that isnt as strong as the bully, comes and helps the 5th graders and now the bully is so mad that he comes up fists blazing, and when all hope fails, and the remaining 5th graders think theyre gonna lose, a 1st grader goes and gets the princapal, and ends the bullying once and for all. The 1st grader got the princapal, cuz the friendly eith grader asked him to


Sauron is reaking havoc on ME, and the elves and men. the elves and men win the battle of Dagorlad plain luckily, and Sauron looses much of his strength. the Elves now are leaving middle earth, because of the growing shadow of the world. Men stay.Gandalf is now in middle earth, to finish him once and for all. Sauron is regaining much of his strength, and finaly launches an assault on middle-earth (helms deep, pellenor feilds). Now at the battle at the Moranon, all hope has failed, and in the nick of time, before they are finaly destroyed, the ring is destroyed and so is evil, once and for all. Frodo went to destroy the ring, because Gandalf asked him to

do you see any simalarities between these 2 stories?
I know it has nothing to do with this topic, but it fits here more than anywere else. hehe

[Elijah'sgurl]

I havent read the books at all yet but planing on to.


~*Rawien*~

[Celebithil]

I think Tolkien gets his message across quite clear to those who really understand it.

[elffriend]

I do not have much to add to this thread, but I feel Tolkien was a very intelligient man who was able to write books that individuals would read, and each reader would find different themes, and those themes would be applicable to them particularly, what i mean is a christian will find christian themes, a pagan will find pagan themes,a buddist, buddist themes. Although power and domination, life and death, creation and sub creation, are some of the themes, there are others, such as, doing what you know to be right, no matter how hard that is.
Tolkien created a world, that i am sure many people would love to live in, I think Tolkien had a great intuition, and understanding of people in general.