Dwarf secret tongue

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Did Tolkien ever write out some information on the Dwarvish tongue, or did he leave it a mystery? If he does have some information on it, can someone please let me know? Thanks.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

I guess no one knows much about the Dwarf tongue...:( Maybe I should change the topic title to "Live Nudes." Then people would come right in!:D

[Anamatar IV]

I dont suppose anyone knows about it. Ive been dying to find an english to dwarvish translator for ages:( ;)

[BelDain]

In the Extended Edition Gimli spoke some "impolite" Dwarvish words to Haldolir. Was that in the book?

[Anamatar IV]

NO!! hehe. Some purists were ranting about this because dwarves rarely use their tongue to others.

[Zale]

On the Ardalambion website (www.ardalambion.com), there is pretty much all the info. that Tolkien gave on Khuzdul. (at least, I think it's called Khuzdul)
Also in the appendices to LOTR there is a table with the Angerthas which the Dwarves used, along with the modifications they made to it.

[Lantarion]

Yes, the Angerthas Moria was a slight deviation from the original Angerthas Daeron.. I believe the text on Balin's tomb was AM.
I'd say that what Gimli says to Haldir is mostly invented by Peter Jackson or somebody else (although I doubt David Salo would let that happen!), because so little info on Khuzdûl is given at all that it would be near impossible to create a full sentence from it.

[BelDain]

The Khuzdûl was supposed to be in Angerthas Moria
The Westron was supposed to be in Angerthas Erebor

[goldmare]

I have recently translated some dwarvish from LoR and the Hobbit. Has anyone else noticed that the dwarvish letters on the map in the Hobbit don't even use the Angerthas translation? It's like each letter stands for something entirely different. I've translated the letters on the map to be, "Stand by the grey stone when the thrush knocks and the setting sun with the last light of Durin's day will shine upon the keyhole." It uses dwarvish letters, but they are used differently than they are in LoR. Could someone explain this to me?

[Lantarion]

The runes in the Hobbit are not the Cirth/Angerthas. They are a deviation of the futhark used by the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. :)
They are a lot easier to learn than the Angerthas, though. :)
But your transcription (not translation :)) was completely correct. :)

[goldmare]

Sorry, my mistake. I thought they were dwarven letters. In Appendix E of the LoR, there was a table of those symbols and what they mean, and it was labled "The Angerthas." But if it's a Anglo-Saxon/Viking deviation, why do the runes in the Hobbit stand for different sounds than those in the LoR, and still transcript out into English?

And what's a futhark? So many questions! I'm still learning here.

[Lantarion]

Well the futhark/futhork is the name of the rune-system I mentioned; the first six letters of the 'alphabet' are 'f', 'u', 'th', 'o/a', 'r' and 'k', which is where the name comes from.
But apparently the Vikings had an 'o' as their fourth letter, and the A-S had an 'a'. But anyway, it's pretty much the same. :)
But if it's a Anglo-Saxon/Viking deviation, why do the runes in the Hobbit stand for different sounds than those in the LoR, and still translate (sorry, I mean transcript) out into English?

Sorry, could you rephrase this? :rolleyes:

[BelDain]

Originally posted by goldmare
But if it's a Anglo-Saxon/Viking deviation, why do the runes in the Hobbit stand for different sounds than those in the LoR, and still translate (sorry, I mean transcript) out into English?

And what's a futhark? So many questions! I'm still learning here.

The Futhark deviation used in the Hobbit for Thror's map is based on a real world runic writing system.

The Angerthas (Cirth) in the App. E is something the Sindarin Elves created back when they were living in Beleriand before Feanor led the Noldor back to Middle-Earth. The dwarves also used this system of putting sounds to written characters and modified them. Thus you have Angerthas Daeron from the elves, Angerthas Moria from the dwarves and Angerthas Erebor from the later dwarves after they were expelled from Moria.

The Tengwar, also featured in App. E was the writing system Feanor and the Noldor brought with them from Aman.

[goldmare]

Thanks for the info. I'm still a little new at this, but I really want to learn.