Athrabeth Faenor!

[Maedhros]

From the Published Silmarillion
But when they were landed, Maedhros the eldest of his sons, and on a time the friend of Fingon ere Morgoth's lies came between, spoke to Fëanor, saying: 'Now what ships and rowers will you spare to return, and whom shall they bear hither first? Fingon the valiant?'
Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar
Was this the way that Fëanor gave the host of Fingolfin and Finarfin (minus Finarfin) the chance at redemption and to try and save the Majority of the Noldor from a hopeless war? Or not?

Team A will choose that it was a chance at redemption.
Team B will choose that it was just plain wrong.

[Nóm]

[Removed statement months later... hehehe]

Little foresight could there be for those who dared to take so dark a road. yet all was done in over-haste; for Fëanor drove them on, fearing lest in the cooling of their hearts his words should wane and other counsels yet prevail...

But Fëanor laughed, and spoke not to the herald, but to the Noldor, saying: 'So! Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only, and return to their bondage? But if any will come with me, I say to them: Is sorrow foreboded to you? But in Aman we have seen it. In Aman we have come through bliss to woe. The other now we will try: through sorrow to find joy; or freedom, at the least.'


But as the mind of Fëanor cooled and took counsel he perceived overlate that all these great companies would never overcome the long leagues to the north, nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships; yet it would need long time and toil to build so great a sleet, even were there any among the Noldor skilled in that craft. he resolved now therefore to persuade the Teleri, , ever friends to the Noldor, to join with them; and in his rebellion he thought that thus the bliss of Valinor might be further diminished and his power for war upon Morgoth be increased. he hastened then to Alqualondë, and spoke to the Teleri as he had spoken before in Tirion.

All of those actions taken by Feanor show his great determination in having a large following in war against Morgoth. He also thought that the bliss of Valinor would be futher diminished and he seems to want that. These are not things that he would change his mind about since they make sense to him. He could only be persuaded otherwise if he had a change of heart.

So we have Feanor who wants more than anything to attack Morgoth.
He plans to do this by having a large army, and he puts forth a lot of effort to get one.

'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also...'

This curse is were Feanor learned just how much hell he would put everyone through if the people of Finarfin and Fingolfin followed him.

Therefore Fëanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take. But they began to suffer anguish from the cold, and the clinging mists through which no gleam of star could pierce; and many repented of the road and began to murmur, especially those that followed Fingolfin, cursing Fëanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar.

This caused Feanor to have pity on them, and he knew that what they said was true, and that he was to blame. Being near to Middle-earth Feanor began to have such confindence and his pride grew, and in his foolishness he thought that his people alone could stand against Morgoth. Because of this pity, and this thought that he could succeed without them, he thought to give them a last chance to save themselves from the curse.


Then Fingolfin seeing that Fëanor had left him to perish in Araman or return in shame to Valinor was filled with bitterness; bit he desired now as never before to come by some way to Middle-earth, and meet Fëanor again.

Fingolfin thought that Feanor left them to either return in shame or to die. But Feanor was not thinking that they would die, he thought they would return to Aman, as he tells his sons here:
Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss: needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!'

Needless baggage? No. For one thing, some of those helped in the battle against the Teleri. Not only that, but Feanor knew that they could be of assistance in fighting Morgoth who was the enemy of all. Feanor was too proud to tell his followers that he had mercy on the people of Fingolfin and Finarfin. To tell his people the truth would cause doubt in them as they would wonder why Feanor saw fit to let the other Noldor return to Valinor. Feanor also knew that his people would want the aid of all the Noldor in the war against Morgoth.
But Feanor had to convince his people that the others should be left behind. So he lied about his reasons.
In telling these lies he awoke fear of betrayal, and convinced all but one of his sons that the people of Fingolfin and Finarfin were useless baggage (which was more of a stretch than a lie). Being short on ships was the perfect excuse, rather than an actual reason to leave the others behind.

This is were he decieved his people:

But Fëanor, knowing all that was said, took counsel with his sons; and two courses only they saw to escape from Araman and come into Endor: by the straits or by ship. But the Helcaraxë they deemed impassable, whereas the ships were too few. Many had been lost upon their long journey, and there remained now not enough to bear across all the great host together; yet none were willing to abide upon the western coast while others were ferried first: already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor. Therefore it came into the hearts of Fëanor and his sons to seize all the ships and depart suddenly; for they had retained the mastery of the fleet since the battle of the Haven, and it was manned only by those who had fought there and were bound to Fëanor. And as though it came at his call, there sprang up a wind from the north-west, and Fëanor slipped away secretly with all whom he deemed true to him, and went aboard, and put out to sea, and left Fingolfin in Araman

Fear of treachery awoke because Feanor wanted it to, for the reasons I named above, he put this those thoughts of treachery into their minds.
He took only those that he deemed true to him because he knew that they would not return to Valinor if given a chance, and he at least wanted a decent sized army to go up against Morgoth. He thought this army would be big enough because in his pride and because of his burning desire to ruin Morgoth he foolishly began to think that his people alone could defeat Morgoth. He knew that a bigger army would be better than a small one, but he didnt want to bring extra people needlessly into the curse.

The fact is that he left Fingolfin and Finarfin's people with the perfect opportunity for redemption. Had Finarfin still be with the hosts, I think Feanor would have accomplished just that.

Though Feanor did some foolish things, he did have a heart, and because of his great pride causing him to think that Fingolfin's people were not needed as much as he pervious thought - he left a chance for redemption.

[Maedhros]

What Fëanor did was just plain wrong.
The Ñoldor that followed Fingolfin and Finarfin (that stayed after the Kingslaying of Alqualondë) where in no way going to turn back.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.
That was the problem of the majority of the Ñoldor, they were very prideful. They were not going to turn back.
As for Fëanor having pity on the hosts of Fingolfin and the sons of Finarfin, that is not true. Fëanor had many qualities, and pity was not one of them.
From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
Fëanor loved his mother dearly, though except in obstinacy their characters were widely different. He was not gentle. He was proud and hot-tempered, and opposition to his will he met not with the quiet steadfastness of his mother but with fierce resentment.
In telling these lies he awoke fear of betrayal, and convinced all but one of his sons that the people of Fingolfin and Finarfin were useless baggage (which was more of a stretch than a lie). Being short on ships was the perfect excuse, rather than an actual reason to leave the others behind.
One of the things that most impacted me as I read the Published Silmarillion is that a Ñoldorian prince ever lies. Fëanor was very upset that the hosts of the Ñoldor didn't all acknowledge him as High King of the Ñoldor, and he resented them. That is why he left them in Araman.
The fact is that he left Fingolfin and Finarfin's people with the perfect opportunity for redemption. Had Finarfin still be with the hosts, I think Feanor would have accomplished just that.
Fëanor never meant for redemption of the Hosts of Fingolfin and the sons of Finarfin, he meant to put them in shame. That is the worst thing that you can do to hurt someones pride, and the Ñoldor were very prideful.

[Khamul]

The very fact that Feanor needed Fingolfin and Finarfin to fight against Morgoth leads us to believe that his only goal in such was to put them to shame by asking for Redemption.

I feel that the topic can be viewed either way. By giving them a chance for Redemption, it can still be considered an attempt to merely embarrass them. The fact that Feanor loved him mother dearly proves that he was not altogether evil and cruel as well.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Maedhros
What Fëanor did was just plain wrong.
The Ñoldor that followed Fingolfin and Finarfin (that stayed after the Kingslaying of Alqualondë) where in no way going to turn back.

[quote revomed]

That was the problem of the majority of the Ñoldor, they were very prideful. They were not going to turn back.
While we know this because we have read the book, it is not relevant as a reason that Feanor did what he did because he did not know it. In fact, he believed otherwise.
He tells his son...
By Maedhros
Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!'
This is the only idea of Feanor's that is mentioned in regards to what the abandonded hosts will do.
By Maedhros
As for Fëanor having pity on the hosts of Fingolfin and the sons of Finarfin, that is not true. Fëanor had many qualities, and pity was not one of them.
From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

[quote removed]


This quote says nothing about pity, furthermore it doesn't give any good indication that Feanor was entirely without pity. Only someone who is truely evil would be uncapable of the very human/elf emotion/thought of pity. Feanor was an elf, and capable of all feelings that we know of (jealousy, love, hate)... why not pity.


By Maedhros
One of the things that most impacted me as I read the Published Silmarillion is that a Ñoldorian prince ever lies. Fëanor was very upset that the hosts of the Ñoldor didn't all acknowledge him as High King of the Ñoldor, and he resented them. That is why he left them in Araman.
I too can not recall one of the princes flat out lying. I think rather than lie, Feanor stretched the truth, stating small possabilities as fact.
For example: rather than say "there is a chance they will betray us"
he might have said "they will betray us!"
Also, if you reason that Feanor could not have lied simply because we know of no other princes of the Noldor telling a lie, you might as well reason that Feanor could not make a silmaril while you're at it.
You say he left them behind because of resentment, but:

I too think that Feanor did resent them, but he had always resented his brothers, yet this did not stop him from working to bring them with him against Morgoth earlier on. he wanted every Noldor (it seems, every elf) he could get to aid in the war against Morgoth.

By Maedhros
Fëanor never meant for redemption of the Hosts of Fingolfin and the sons of Finarfin, he meant to put them in shame. That is the worst thing that you can do to hurt someones pride, and the Ñoldor were very prideful.
Sting brought up a good point, I imagine that in his pity Feanor might have been pleased to think of the shame that they would have when they return.
Also, you claiming that Feanor's intention was shame, contradicts any claim by you that 'they were in no way going to turn back' has anything to do with Feanor's motives.

[Maedhros]

This quote says nothing about pity, furthermore it doesn't give any good indication that Feanor was entirely without pity. Only someone who is truely evil would be uncapable of the very human/elf emotion/thought of pity. Feanor was an elf, and capable of all feelings that we know of (jealousy, love, hate)... why not pity.
That quote gives us a better understanding of Fëanor. He was not a typical elf. Once he sets his mind, he goes all the way to achieve his purposes.
From the Published Silmarillion:Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
in the pursuit of all his purposes eager and steadfast. Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force.
Fëanor had little love for his half-brothers, and pity is something that he didn't have with them nor the Teleri in Alqualondë.
Also, if you reason that Feanor could not have lied simply because we know of no other princes of the Noldor telling a lie, you might as well reason that Feanor could not make a silmaril while you're at it.
Ñoldorian princes do not lie, simple. They held their honor above all else, hence they were very very prideful. They just didn't lie or mislead, they spoke what they believed in.
Oh, and Fëanor was unable to make more Silmarils after the theft of Melkor, the same as other Ñoldorian princes too, while I'm at it.
Also, you claiming that Feanor's intention was shame, contradicts any claim by you that 'they were in no way going to turn back' has anything to do with Feanor's motives.
Nope it doesn't.
As by the quotes, Fëanor wanted to shame them, by having the hosts of Fingolfin and the sons of Finarfin return to Valinor because he thought that to go to the Helcaraxë was impossible.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor
But Fëanor, knowing all that was said, took counsel with his sons; and two courses only they saw to escape from Araman and come into Endor: by the straits or by ship. But the Helcaraxë they deemed impassable, whereas the ships were too few.
Fëanor didn't think that the Helcaraxë was possible to pass, and when he left them in the Wastes of Araman, he thought that the only possible way for the remaining Ñoldor was to turn back to Valinor.
The hosts of Fingolfin and the Sons of Finarfin, wouldn't turn back and did the impossible and went to the Helcaraxë. The betraying of Fëanor had actually the opposite effect that he thought it would. It only hardened the resolve of Fingolfin to go to ME, and face Fëanor again.
Then Fingolfin seeing that Fëanor had left him to perish in Araman or return in shame to Valinor was filled with bitterness; but he desired now as never before to come by some way to Middle-earth, and meet Fëanor again.
There is no contradiction at all.

[Ithrynluin]

TEAM B - What Fëanor did was just plain wrong!

'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also...'

By Nóm
This curse is were Feanor learned just how much hell he would put everyone through if the people of Finarfin and Fingolfin followed him.


Fëanor learned diddly squat from the curse. He disregarded the Valar all the way and heeded their warnings not in the least. He never regarded anyone's advice but his own:

For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

He was ill-disposed towards his half brothers from the very beginning, he wanted his father's attention all to himself and he rejected his brother's kindly offerings of truce and compassion. In the following passage, Fingolfin spoke gently to his father and he does not exhibit hatred towards Fëanor...but see how Fëanor replies:

Then there was great unrest in Tirion, and Finwë was troubled; and he summoned all his lords to council. But Fingolfin hastened to his halls and stood before him, saying: 'King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother, Curufinwë, who is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly? By what right does he speak for all our people, as if he were King? Thou it was who long ago spoke before the Quendi, bidding them accept the summons of the Valar to Aman. Thou it was that led the Noldor upon the long road through the perils of Middle-earth to the light of Eldamar. If thou dost not now repent of it, two sons at least thou hast to honour thy words.'
But even as Fingolfin spoke, Fëanor strode into the chamber, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said. 'My half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters.' Then turning upon Fingolfin he drew his sword, crying: 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!'
Fingolfin bowed before Finwë, and without word or glance to Fëanor he went from the chamber. But Fëanor followed him, and at the door of the king's house he stayed him; and the point of his bright sword he set against Fingolfin's breast 'See, half-brother!' he said. 'This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.'


Even after such harsh treatment, Fingolfin still retained love for his half-brother and spoke thus before Manwë:

'I will release my brother.' But Fëanor spoke no word in answer, standing silent before the Valar. Then he turned and left the council, and departed from Valmar.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore Fëanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take. But they began to suffer anguish from the cold, and the clinging mists through which no gleam of star could pierce; and many repented of the road and began to murmur, especially those that followed Fingolfin, cursing Fëanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar.

By Nóm
This caused Feanor to have pity on them, and he knew that what they said was true, and that he was to blame. Being near to Middle-earth Feanor began to have such confindence and his pride grew, and in his foolishness he thought that his people alone could stand against Morgoth. Because of this pity, and this thought that he could succeed without them, he thought to give them a last chance to save themselves from the curse.

Now that's a laughing matter! Judging from the quote above, what possibly led you to believe that pity stirred in Fëanor's heart? He hardly knew that emotion, and was guided by arrogance first and foremost. Hearing the followers of Fingolfin curse his name would surely arouse his wrath and another kinslaying could have possibly taken place there and then. What stayed his anger at that time then? The fact that his host was by far outnumbered by Fingolfin's & Finarfin's!
He though only about how he might use them for the attainment of his goals - the recovery of the Silmarils and the vengeance for his father's death.

Here is undeniable proof that Fëanor resented being cursed by the host of Fingolfin:
Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss: needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!'
----------------------------------------------------------------------

By Nóm
He knew that a bigger army would be better than a small one, but he didnt want to bring extra people needlessly into the curse.

Oh really? When did Fëanor turn into such a charitable, altruistic person all of a sudden? His only reason for abandoning the rest of the Noldor was "taking the easy way out". If he could have had his way in all things, he would have had Fingolfin's host tag along and serve only as "cannon fodder" against Morgoth. But since his mind was clouded by the overwhelming desire to have the precious Silmarils back in his possession as soon as possible, he just discarded his brothers' people. And in his arrogance he believed that his own host would be enough.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

To offer redemption, one must feel at least a little bit of love and compassion towards the person to whom he is offering it. Fëanor clearly had none towards his own people and he acted solely out of self interest and selfishness.

If there was ANY offer of redemption at all, then it was the princes of the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin that offered it - to the sons of Fëanor. This was a personal redemption, to make the sons of Fëanor abjure their ruinous quest of claiming the Silmarils and to repent for their unjust treatment of the people of Fingolfin and Finarfin.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by ithrynluin


Now that's a laughing matter! Judging from the quote above, what possibly led you to believe that pity stirred in Fëanor's heart? He hardly knew that emotion, and was guided by arrogance first and foremost. Hearing the followers of Fingolfin curse his name would surely arouse his wrath and another kinslaying could have possibly taken place there and then. What stayed his anger at that time then? The fact that his host was by far outnumbered by Fingolfin's & Finarfin's!
He though only about how he might use them for the attainment of his goals - the recovery of the Silmarils and the vengeance for his father's death.
Feanor would not stop because he was outnumbered. He went after Morgoth for crying out loud. He rebelled against the Valar! No one could hold Feanor back.
What stopped kinslaying is that Feanor had mercy, though he was too proud to admit it.

by ithrynluin
But since his mind was clouded by the overwhelming desire to have the precious Silmarils back in his possession as soon as possible, he just discarded his brothers' people. And in his arrogance he believed that his own host would be enough.
Surely if Feanor thought he could stand against Morgoth he would have thought he could attack the rest of the Noldor too!
He didn't attack them because he pitied them.
By ithrynluin
Here is undeniable proof that Fëanor resented being cursed by the host of Fingolfin:

[QUOTE REMOVED]


So he resented being cursed by them. Big deal. Surely someone can have an amount of pity, and show mercy upon something that they resent. Surely Grima and Gollum were resented but they were shown mercy.


By ithrynluin
Oh really? When did Fëanor turn into such a charitable, altruistic person all of a sudden? His only reason for abandoning the rest of the Noldor was "taking the easy way out". If he could have had his way in all things, he would have had Fingolfin's host tag along and serve only as "cannon fodder" against Morgoth.
Exactly, he wanted all of Fingolfin's people to fight against Morgoth, so why didn't he bring them all the way? He changed hs mind about this, because of pity. Surely he always had resentment for his brothers but that didn't stop him from trying to bring them along in the first place. Only when he realized what hell he was pulling them into, and that they blamed him, did he have pity and change his mind.


by ithrynluin
To offer redemption, one must feel at least a little bit of love and compassion towards the person to whom he is offering it. Fëanor clearly had none towards his own people and he acted solely out of self interest and selfishness.
Compassion yes, but love is not needed to show mercy. Just a human sense of goodness. To say that Feanor was not capable of pity, you are saying that he had no good in him. He was very selfish and didn't seem to care much for others after his father died but he was not beyond feeling human things like pride, anger, or pity.

by ithrynluin
If there was ANY offer of redemption at all, then it was the princes of the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin that offered it - to the sons of Fëanor. This was a personal redemption, to make the sons of Fëanor abjure their ruinous quest of claiming the Silmarils and to repent for their unjust treatment of the people of Fingolfin and Finarfin.
So they returned the favor that they maybe never saw for what it was.

by Maedhros
Ñoldorian princes do not lie, simple. They held their honor above all else, hence they were very very prideful. They just didn't lie or mislead, they spoke what they believed in.
Oh, and Fëanor was unable to make more Silmarils after the theft of Melkor, the same as other Ñoldorian princes too, while I'm at it.
Oh, so at one point in time Feanor could do something that no one else could do. Well then, at one point in time he decieved his people too.
By Maedhros
That quote gives us a better understanding of Fëanor. He was not a typical elf.
He was not a typical elf.
That quote, demonstartes also, that there is no reason to think that Feanor was not capable of pity.

[Maedhros]

From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
He was not gentle. He was proud and hot-tempered, and opposition to his will he met not with the quiet steadfastness of his mother but with fierce resentment.
In the time when the Ñoldor were in the Wastes of Araman, the Ñoldor of the Fingolfin host were beginning to curse Fëanor as the cause of their woes. Couple that to the fact that they didn't choose him to be the High King of the Ñoldor, makes me think that they were not in direct accordance to him. That would make Faenor treat those Ñoldor with resentment and leave them were they were.
Faenor could have had the quality of showing pity, but just not to those Ñoldor who defied and cursed him in the Wastes of Araman. He wanted to shame them by having returned them to Valinor in shame.

[Elfarmari]

There does not seem to be much to add to this debate, but here is my contribution.
Originally posted by Nóm
Surely if Feanor thought he could stand against Morgoth he would have thought he could attack the rest of the Noldor too!
He didn't attack them because he pitied them.
I believe that he did not attack the host of Fingolfin because he had no need to. He only had to board the ships and sail away, leaving them to go back to Valinor. Tolkien only gave us limited information as to Feanor's character, but from what I have read, he was blinded by his purpose, but his will. He was determined to mow down anything or anyone who opposed him, be they vala, elf, man, orc or any other creature. His purpose was revenge. In order to accomplish this goal, he needed to get to Middle Earth with as large a host as possible. Because of the lies of Morgoth and the curse of Mandos, Feanor already mistrusted his own kin. Because of this, he would not suffer any of his host to use the white ships of the Teleri as ferries, fearing the very thing that ultimately would happen: Fingolfin's people would carry their malcontent beyond cursing and into action. Feanor, as all others seemed to at this time, believed the Helecarxe (sorry about the spelling) to be impassable. He did not think it physically possible to pass them. Therefore he [thought he] knew that Fingolfin would be forced to march back to Aman and beg forgiveness of the Valar. Nowhere do we see Feanor give pity to any, and rarely did his sons do so. The kinslaying at Alqualonde was only the beginning of all the evils accomlished by Feanor's terrible oath.
Feanor, while not entirely evil, did not know the feeling of pity. He murdered innocents because they withheld their treasure, which they loved even as he had loved the silmarils. This lack of pity or understanding shows to me the failure of Feanor's mind. The greatest of the Eldar he may have been, but the single-minded purpose which drove his great deeds also blinded him to the needs of others. If he wanted something, he would take it. Another example of this is Galadriel. She mistrusted him, and denied his request for a strand of her hair. This refusal stabbed him who would have his way in all things. Think of his jealousy of Fingolfin! Fingolfin did nothing to anger him, save talk to his father, and was repaid for this with a sword at his breast. Fingolfin even forgave Feanor this evil, but Feanor's pride could not allow him to accept forgiveness. Pity? This was the furthest from the mind of Feanor! His mind was focused on Morgoth, on the revenge he would wreak on that dark power, he cared nothing for the parting curse of the Valar, and even less for its effects on his half-brother.
Feanor may not have been purely evil, but leaving Fingolfin and all his people stranded in the wastes of Aman with no way out but shame or death cannot be anything else.

[Nóm]

If we were dealing with someone more reasonable than Feanor I would agreee that he didn't attack them because he didn't have to. But this is Feanor, and if he left Fingolfin and burned the ships for the reasons that you guys say he did, out of cruelty, then surely it would have been even more cruel still to attack them. If he was acting out of resentment, a burning hatred or anger, then wouldn't he do the worse thing and attack them in his hot-headedness, rather than abandom them to face only shame. We're talk about someone so violent and rash that he threatend his brother with a sword out of childish jealousy.

Everything is black and white for Feanor, you are either with him, or against him. For Feanor to leave behind so many great warriors, who could otherwise help his cause, he had to have either viewed them as enemies, or have spared them. If he viewed them as enemies it would have been like Feanor to attack them.

Would Feanor sit by and let people curse his name? No... of course not, he'd fight them for doing it. Such a thing to Feanor would be viewed as an attack. But Feanor saw truth in their words, and he was moved to mercy and understanding this was his fault, he hid it.

Elfarmari gives a good arguement against Feanor being capable of pity. But, this is not so... he is capable of pity and other things, buthides that in his pride.
He did not want his sons to know his true reason for leaving Fingolfin behind to return to the Valar.
Then Feanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!
Doesn't sound like Feanor was doing this for the good of Fingolfin's people, but why should it? Feanor's pride would not show his true reasons, that he wanted to spare them!
Even when Feanor accidently burned his son in the ships, he hid his dismay, and showed no care about it. When Feanor learned that his son had been aboard the ship when they were burned, this is how he reacted:
From the Shibboleth of Feanor
'That ship I destroyed first,' said Feanor (hiding his own dismay).
That is the kind of pride that we are looking at. Feanor showed no remorse for the death of his son, and even went one further and and played it off as though he ment to do it, even though he didn't! Even though he will have been grieved by the death of his son.

Now why would such a person admit to leaving Fingolfin a chance for repemption? There is no way he would.

Hiding anything like pity, or remorse, is just like Feanor.

[Nóm]

I just have to say...

My arguement has two main lines.

1) The reason Feanor had pity

2) The reason Feanor was willing to let the people go back to Valinor, in other words.. why he did not need them



Now 1) I reason that he experienced guilt upon hearing the Noldor curse his name, and that given the words of Mandos... Feanor became aware of the hell he was about to take these people into. I say he showed them mercy because of those things.

Now with 2) I reason Feanor (in his mind) no longer needed the extras left behind, since in his great pride he thought him and his followers alone would whoop Morgoth.

I just have to say that these lines contradict eachother so much that you guys not pointing this out is very fun. :D

Clearly if he thought he would whoop Morgoth without the help of the other Noldor, then he can not have thought he was dragging them into hell from which he would spare them by showing mercy in his pity.

;)

[Lhunithiliel]

It may have been started as a debate, but it turned into a duscussion. An excellent and challenging one! Perhaps it's time to revive it?