A thought to consider when you watch TTT

[Talimon]

I haven't seen the film, so obviously I am just speculating here. However, I think I can offer some "advice" based on the reviews I've read and the impressions I've gotten. Since a lot of folks seem to be worried about TTT, I thought I might mention these few points:

1) This movie can't be watched as a separate entity from FotR (or RotK). This sounds obvious, but if you go into the theatre comparing the two you will only be hurting yourself. While they are obviously two separate movies, ultimately they aren't meant to be seen independently. Think of it like this: is TTT, the book, worth anything without FotR? Indeed, could you even read it and understand it without having first read FotR? PJ has stated countless times that his ultimate goal is to make one long 9-10 hour movie, rather then 3 smaller ones. That is to say, ideally they are to be watched together, not apart. In short, you might be better off seeing the EE version of FotR a day or two before going to see TTT. Tolkien wouldn't have liked you to read TTT a long time after finishing FotR, and I doubt PJ would like you to do the same with his films.They are meant to feed off themselves. I also mention this point in regards to the structure of TTT. The thing is, TTT doesn't have a beginning nor an end, both in Tolkiens book and in PJ's movie. Keep all these points in mind, and try to see it as part of the greater whole.

2) A lot of people have been prophecizing that TTT will completely butcher Tolkiens book. From the reviews I've read, however, I am slightly confused as to why people get this impression. Let me remind people that 7 chapters were outright cut from FotR. We more or less cut from the chapter 'The Shadow of the Past' to 'At the Sign of The Prancing Pony'. Then, if we are considering the Theatrical Cut here, we also have 'Farewell to Lorien' cut out as well. From the reviews I've read of TTT, not one chapter was outright cut. Indeed, the only thing that is different is that the first chapter of the book happened in FotR, and the last chapters are going to happen in RotK. None of these, however, are considered in my book "cuts". The chronology is still the same, and the only difference is that those last chapters have been moved up to the next installment.

Now I'm not saying there won't be additions and changes, but the fact is that, in terms of pure narrative, TTT (apparently) sticks much closer to the book then FotR. But, for consistencies sake, let's just say it sticks "as close". My point is this: keep in mind the changes/cuts that PJ made in FotR before criticizing the changes he's made in TTT.

[Thorin]

There is no way to really look at this movie as a single entity. Yes, you can wow at the visual effects but I doubt this will be up for as many awards as FoTR was. Technical awards, yes. However, it is presented as a middle part of a three part movie. Hence, the only thing we can do is compare it with the book. Ultimately, it cannot be judged on its own merit, but how does it gel with PJ's FotR? I can't help but feel that those who never saw the EE are going to be shortchanged and confused in the next two movies (eg. lack of character development, Galadriel's gifts) especially for those who haven't read the books.

[Aragon'sGirl24]

:D Thanks for the heads up.

[Mrs. Maggott]

This movie can't be watched as a separate entity from FotR (or RotK). This sounds obvious, but if you go into the theatre comparing the two you will only be hurting yourself. <quote Talimon>

Let me get this straight: I cannot watch TTT as a "separate entity from FOTR" - and later ROTK, but, at the same time, I cannot go "into the theatre comparing the two". What, exactly, am I supposed to do then? If I am "considering" TTT as an "extension" of the story begun in FOTR, how can I help but "compare" the two? Surely, I will by the very nature of my memories of the first film, "compare" the behavior and demeanor of the various characters in the first film with their behavior and demeanor in the second film! How could I not? In other words, if Aragorn is a blonde woman in the second film after being a brunette male in the first, I'm gonna notice the difference!

Certainly the plot line will not be duplicated or I might just as well go back and watch the first film! I know there will be a "different" sequence of events (hopefully within the "flow" of the story), but there has to be a continuity and "flow" from the first to the second film (and from the second to the third). If that "flow" doesn't exist, then the story itself may be irrepairably damaged, creating a dramatic nonsense held together simply by the common elements of setting, props and characters.

I have already had to "forget" the book. If I now must "avoid comparison" with the first film, I'm going to find myself "all at sea" in the middle of the story - and that's simply not acceptable.

[Talimon]

Let me clarify, MM. What I meant was that you can't go in judging TTT as it's own entity. It's not meant to exist on it's own, and it's not meant to be judged on its own. I compared it to Tolkiens book: would you judge the book TTT as a complete separate entity from FotR? They are part of the same tale, and only broken up out of neccessity/convention. Tolkien viewed them as one long book, and PJ is viewing these as one long movie. If you neglect the fact that they are part of a trilogy, both the book and the film FotR are very incomplete. This is in contrast with, say, the Star Wars films. Although you are meant to idealy see them in order, you can easily see any of the movies on thier own without needing to have seen the others. I believe this simply won't be true for the LotR movies, and this is because of the way they've been made. If you attempt to view them as completely indpendent of one another there is no doubt you will slightly dissapointed.

I think you misinterpreted my statement "avoid comparison". I meant avoid comparing the two as two separate tales. They are the same tale, and the demands of that tale are being spread over three films. Likewise, the experience of that tale cannot be correctly percieved without viewing it as one. By that I mean that you'd never say, "The themes of FotR are 'x', the themes of TTT are 'y', and the themes of RotK are 'z'." Rather you'd say, "The themes of LotR are xyz." Yes, as a film TTT will have to work as a coherent experience, but it isn't it's own tale. It is the rather difficult middle section with no begginning and no end. It is a continuation of themes that began in FotR, and yet it wont finish those themes. All I'm saying is keep this in mind.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I kinda figgured that yeh meant somethin' like that, but if yow'd askit me to fergit one more thing, I wudna been able teh find me seat in the theater! :eek:

[chrome_rocknave]

What exactly are you getting at here Talimon? Call me dense, but I don't understand what this is all about. I mean obviously FoTR and TTT have different plots...and would therefore be viewed as two seperate parts of the whole... I don't understand!:( :confused: :(

[Talimon]

What exactly are you getting at here Talimon? Call me dense, but I don't understand what this is all about. I mean obviously FoTR and TTT have different plots...and would therefore be viewed as two seperate parts of the whole... I don't understand!

I think after you see the film it might make more sense. I'm just basing this off my impressions, and I might be wrong (as I haven't actually seen the film). But a lot of people have been saying how "TTT won't be as true as FotR", and in my opinion you need to view them as a whole. I think this will make more sense once the film is released. Don't view them as having "two separate plots" but as being part of the same continuing plot.

[chrome_rocknave]

So you mean if TTT has completely veered away from the plot of the books, you wouldn't say it was less true than FoTR but that the movies were untrue?

[Talimon]

So you mean if TTT has completely veered away from the plot of the books, you wouldn't say it was less true than FoTR but that the movies were untrue?

In a way, you could put it like that... what I'm getting at is that ultimately these films will have to be viewed as a whole rather then 3 separate entities. Many plot lines and scenes may not make sense until you've seen how they resolve in RotK (and, likewise, would not make sense had you not seen how they had started in FotR). From the reviews I've read I have a few examples in mind that would help me articulate this, though perhaps it's better that we see the film before discussing this any further. In specific I am thinking about Faramir, whose charachter has been said to be altered. But the same might be said about any of the charachters. Aragorn will no doubt change, M & P will no doubt change, Sam and Frodo, Eowyn, Theoden... Many of these "changes" that seem to make no sense now might make much more sense once you've seen RotK, and can view them as part of the whole. That is what I was getting at with my first point in my original post. My second point was that there is no need to make noise about the changes in TTT without first acknowledging the changes in FotR. Don't expect any less changes to occur in TTT, and keep in mind that for FotR 7 chapters from the book were cut from the theatrical release. That is a pretty significant change, in my book, so keep that in mind when making statements such as "TTT isn't as true as FotR".

[PRH]

I find it odd that we can't treat TTT as a fairly stand-alone film while PJ has supposedly 'adapted' it from the book the most of all 3 films because the TT book didn't have a film-friendly dramatic arc. Which is it? Can all the changes really be defended for the cause of a dramatically staged and resolved movie if it can't really be treated as such?

[Aerin]

And once again, we return to PJ's reducing Tolkien's masterpiece of 6 'books', to a trilogy.. :rolleyes:

I've given up just about all hope that I will even recognize the TT movie as even having the barest roots in Tolkien's book; from what I've heard/read/seen, it's going to be so vastly different that there will be extremely little connection with the original storyline.

---This is probably in a weird place, but I must say - I heard a rumour that Legolas is to die in The Two Towers! :eek: Needless to say, I was completely shocked when my friend (who owns the Extended Edition DVD) told me that a friend of hers had already seen TTT (which I highly doubt), and that Legolas dies in it.... Can anyone refute that? Please? It's not that I'm a fan of the movie Legolas, but killing Legolas off would certainly change the plot in more horrible ways than I wish to imagine.---

Comparing TTT to FotR.. hmmm... how does one avoid that? I understand your point, Talimon, of TTT being a continuation of FotR, an interlude, if you will, between FotR and RotK.. but comparisons will be made, nonetheless.
If it "gels" with PJ's other two movies, then it would be permissible to say that he "made a good movie" - but certainly not a "good adaptation of Tolkien's works".

And, in my stance as a Purist, I will never "be grateful that there's a movie of Lord of the Rings at all"! If PJ's creation is the most we can hope for, then I'd rather not have it associated with Tolkien or his books at all. :D

[Mrs. Maggott]

Don't expect any less changes to occur in TTT <quote Talimon>

If I may remaind all and sundry, I think I made that point several times. However, given Talimon's gentle disclaimer, the changes must be more than even I had imagined! :rolleyes:

[Fimbrethil]

And once again, we return to PJ's reducing Tolkien's masterpiece of 6 'books', to a trilogy..

And here be me thinking of the whole thing as a single book ;) They don't read separate, and I rip out the 'book/part' divides in my paper back copy. It reads as one very long book. Not six ickle ones :D


Anyways. As someone who has become a determined sitter on the fence about the movies, I'm just gonna say that I am currently itching in my seat to see the film. I've read the book numerous times, and recently purchased the unabridged Hobbit on cd to get my tolkien fix. Being able to loose myself in such beautiful (if flawed) realisations of tolkiens world as the DVD:EE is all very well, but I want to see Treebeard and Mumakil.

Yus, there is an Oliphant in TT. I quote from the special LOTR:TT edition of Total Film (there are some other interesting quotes that I will transcribe)


Discussion from Monaghan about the hobbit duo's scenes with tree beard, then going onto voice of tree beard....
And Rhys-Davies? By his own admision, he was barely there. "You are only one small part of an enormous technical process that is needed to bring a character to life,"he says. And that 'technical process' is responsible for conjuring up not only Gollum and Treebeard in the way of new monsters. In The Two Towers, audiences will be able to see the Ringwraiths return on their new steeds the Fell Beasts ("like a tyrannosaurus with wings" says director of animation Randy Cook), witness the gargantuan, elephantine Mumakil and see the orcs in action will riding the vicious wargs.....

Elsewhere in a rather long archive, those who act out Merry and Pippen talk about their characters growing. I think in all the disgust from some purists about the pairs 'joke' scenes in FotR, people tend to forget that those two haven't come of age when they leave the shire. They aren't going to be well behaved and on the ball all the time in the first film, they are leaving their cosy world. From what I can see, through the first film, they behave like kids or students.

In TT, they get to grow up and show the traits which are beginning to come through at the end of the last film. Hopefully, for the purists, this means less so-called moronic jokes. Sadly, it also means that the light heartedness fun of the shire has literally been.


Hmm, maybe I'm looking forward more to the characters that have been developed in the first film, than to seeing which scenes are in and which are out. One thing I do wonder is exactly WHERE they are going to leave Frodo and Sam?

The shocking way Sam is left on his own at the end of the book would make a fantastic cliff hanger....aswell as his determination to hang on.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I think in all the disgust from some purists about the pairs 'joke' scenes in FotR, people tend to forget that those two haven't come of age when they leave the shire. They aren't going to be well behaved and on the ball all the time in the first film, they are leaving their cosy world. From what I can see, through the first film, they behave like kids or students. <quote Fimbrethil>

No, my problem is not that Merry and Pippin were immature and rather scapegrace, but that they were not presented in their true nature; that is, knowledgeable about the Ring and the danger involved, but willing to accompany Frodo into exile for friendship's sake.

In the film, they are simply "caught up" in the pursuit of the Riders and swept along, so to speak, with the action. That is an entirely different "take" on the two hobbits' character and motive. Not only is it "false" to the plot of the book, but to its essential meaning and vision which is much concerned with the virtue of true friendship. Whatever Merry and Pippin become in the film, they do not begin the tale with the same personal virtues as they display in the book.

[Talimon]

---This is probably in a weird place, but I must say - I heard a rumour that Legolas is to die in The Two Towers! Needless to say, I was completely shocked when my friend (who owns the Extended Edition DVD) told me that a friend of hers had already seen TTT (which I highly doubt), and that Legolas dies in it.... Can anyone refute that? Please? It's not that I'm a fan of the movie Legolas, but killing Legolas off would certainly change the plot in more horrible ways than I wish to imagine.---

Going in with absurd rumours like that, you will certainly be pleasantly surprised, Aerin. Legolas dying?!? That is almost as pathetic a rumour as Arwen riding to Mt. Doom herself. But please, do go in expecting these things. I rather you come in with dirt-cheap expectations and end up being happy.

[Aerin]

Oh, trust me, Talimon, I expect such "dirt-cheap" things from PJ at this point. I won't be "pleasantly surpsied" with the drivel PJ is giving, and expect to be satisfied. :rolleyes: Legolas dying in TTT wouldn't suprise me, seeing as how the director has decided to change the story so much as to make it unrecognizeable from Tolkien's LotR.