Maedhros's right hand

[Nóm]

.............

[Ithrynluin]

In the event of rehousing, why would his right hand not be restored?:confused:
Common sense tells me that a person is better off having 2 hands than only one, so I'll simply vote for that.

[Maedhros]

The great Maedhros, if rehoused would had his right hand, but he would cut it off. He would do it because it was a reminder of his pain in Thangorodrim. And he sees it as a purge of his sins in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.

[Rúmil]

I don't think the Eldar look very kindly on self-maiming. Doesn't seem to fit in the picture. Besides, Maedhros wouldn't need such a reminder: remember that to Elves memory is just like wakeful sensation. I think Maedhros would be just as well without it, because if he is rehoused, he has already paid for his sins with a long sentence in Mandos.

[Brent]

Question:
When Sauron gets his finger cut off and then gets "rehoused" its still missing, is this because he's a bad boy ? Or is it that you don't get bits back that come off - ooh err

[Rúmil]

Sauron's rehousing is different from an Elf's rehousing: Sauron is a maia, his body is like what clothes are to us: he can make his own body, in time, by meditating or the like: he just weaves flesh around his own spirit. Therefore, his body is made by himself alone.

Elves, on the other hand, are in essence spirit and flesh: they canot make their own body. Their spirit, if they die and wish to be re-born, is set into a new body (provided by an elf-man and an elf-woman in the good old way) by special grace of Illúvatar. It is not made by the Elf himself.

If you have to make your own body, like Sauron, and if you have lost power since you last made one, this diminishment will have an effect on the body you make: the first time Sauron was killed (in the downfall Númenor) he lost the option of making himself fair; the second time, after Isildur's finger-chopping, he lost the ability to have more than 4 fingers on his right hand.

Gandalf's re-housing after Zirak-zigil was speeded up and ehanced by a grace of the Valar and of Illúvatar: that is why, allthough he had obviously lost some power in the fight against the Balrog, the body he bore afterwards was not maimed in some way but actually enhanced.

Maedhros' re-housing would be entirely performed by Illúvatar, so his new body would not be affected in any way by whatever happened to him previously.


I hope this answers your question :)

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
I thought Tolkien decided that elves can not be reborn in the good old way but only rehoused.
I got this idea from reading Morgoth's Ring.

If I recalll correctly, Tolkien thought that an elf being reborn would have different parents and therefore a different body and that having a diffferent body while maintaining memory of the former body would cause problems for the elf. So he settled that Elves would only be rehoused right into the former body. This is just my summary of the writings as I remember them, and I could be wrong.

I also thought that was the case (and hence I agree with you). I like the idea of Glorfindel simply emerging from the halls of Mandos with a new body (but the memory of his "old life" pretty much intact) rather than being born to new parents.

[Rúmil]

Well in 'laws and customs of the Eldar' in Morgoth's Ring it says they were reborn into the bodies of children procreated by Elven parents... Morgoth's Ring is the only text in which he makes a clear statement one way or the other, so that is usually considered the canonical opinion on re-housing.

[Turin]

:confused: Who is Maedhros:mad:

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Rúmil
I don't think the Eldar look very kindly on self-maiming. Doesn't seem to fit in the picture. Besides, Maedhros wouldn't need such a reminder: remember that to Elves memory is just like wakeful sensation. I think Maedhros would be just as well without it, because if he is rehoused, he has already paid for his sins with a long sentence in Mandos.
I have since changed my opinion on this, having read a lot more since then.

I think that Maedhros would not be released from Mandos until he was healed enough that he would be able to have his hand back without any ill effects.

At any rate, I do not think Maedhros would cut off his own hand if given his full body.

Well in 'laws and customs of the Eldar' in Morgoth's Ring it says they were reborn into the bodies of children procreated by Elven parents... Morgoth's Ring is the only text in which he makes a clear statement one way or the other, so that is usually considered the canonical opinion on re-housing.

Before I had only read the Athrabeth and Manwe's conversation with Iluvatar, and that made clear that the old rebirth writings from Laws and Costums were over-ruled by the idea of rehousing, but I didn't argue with Rumil who had read the whole book.

But I read Laws and Costums a couple days ago and again looked over what is said later in the book and it is clear... the later idea was in favor of rehousing rather than rebirth.

The odd thing is that it is because of rebirth that the elves decided that the fea of an offspring must come from Iluvatar and not only from the parents, As rebirthing would be unjust if the fea of an offspring was normally made of the two parents.

Since rebirth was later decided against, I wonder if the elves now have any good reason to suppose that the fea of an offspring is not made of the parents. I suppose they might have learned this from the Valar, or even deduced it on their own based on wisdom gained through the years.

[olorin the maia]

Turin, Maedhros was the oldest son of Feanor, mightiest of the Noldor. Go read the Silmarillion for what he did, how he lost his hand, etc.

or were you having me on?:rolleyes:

[Turin]

I haven't been able to get the Sil yet.

[BlackCaptain]

Hey, 2 hands are always better than 1!