Saruman's Caradhras motives

[PRH]

Originally I thought I had Saruman's motives figured out regarding the whole 'waking Carahdras/controlling the storm thing.' I figured he knew Gandalf would want to avoid Moria ("If the mountain defeats you, will you risk the more dangerous road?....Moria, you fear to go that way....You know what the dwarves awoke, shadow and flame.") so by trying to block the pass of Caradhras he figured Gandalf would go through the Gap of Rohan, and close to Isengard. Makes sense right?

Well, on the production team commentary track, Mark Ordesky says that Saruman's motive was to force Gandalf through Moria in order to get him killed by the Balrog so the Fellowship would be defenseless without him. This makes no sense whatsoever. It makes huge assumptions about what will happen in Moria. First off, if Pippin hadn't caused all the noise they'd have gone through scot-free. Next, if Saruman assumes the Balrog will kill Gandalf, the logically assumption is to guess that it would kill the whole Fellowship. What were the odds that Gandalf and the Balrog would simultaneously take each other out? Chances were far better that one or the other would win. Assuming the Balrog had killed Gandalf, it would have killed all the others, probably taken the Ring and certainly not given it to Saruman (or even Sauron) who he had absolutely no alliegance with (and probably even no knowledge of). Nice plan Saruman! You must play craps.

I think Mr. Ordesky is a little cornfused.

[Mablung]

Well I have no answer as to why he assumed they would go through Moria and was certain the Balrog would attack. But I think he assumed Gandalf would do as he did and fight the Balrog himself. Assuming that he also probably assumed that the Fellowship would turn and run out of Moria getting to safety while they were still fighting. Or even if the Balrog did kill all of them and take the ring he was stronger than Gandalf at that point and probably thought he could get it back after all he did think he could take on Sauron.

[Nóm]

Who is Mark Ordesky? What was his job? What he said was probably a bunch of stupid speculation on his part. I do not think that others would agree with him. Hopefully his job didn't require he know this kind of thing!

[Mithlond]

Mark Ordesky is one of the New Line executives isnt he? I believe he was prtty close to Peter Jackson on alot of the decisions with the film, but im not too sure.

[Thorin]

Hence, all the more reason why PJ's Caradhras scene should have remained true to the book. It makes no sense. In the book, there is no mention of Saruman's name involved with the falling the of the mountain. Actually, it was speculated by Gimli that it might be Sauron, but ultimately, Tolkien showed (through other scenes) that it was just the nature of the mountain itself.

By doing what PJ did, he made Saruman more powerful than he was, he has Saruman finding out from the crebain where the fellowship was in record time, plus, it assumes that S knows about the Balrog. Gandalf didn't even know about the Balrog! PJ practically gives it all away backed up by illogical assumptions to a "dumb" audience (like he does with a good chunk of his movie)

PRH pointed out many obvious things...PJ straying from the book created more confusion and illogic then had he not exercised his foolish "vision".

[PRH]

It a fairly sound plan on Saruman's part if my first interpretation is correct and Mr. Ordesky's is wrong (yes, Ordesky is the New Line executive - he was very very much a part of the filmmaking).

[aragil]

Thorin- in the movie it is the nature of the mountain- Saruman's is beseeching the Mountain to help him, Gandalf is beseeching the mountain to stay asleep.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Thorin
PJ practically gives it all away backed up by illogical assumptions to a "dumb" audience (like he does with a good chunk of his movie)
There have been so many references here to what people think the audiences could have accepted, understood, and enjoyed. They, along with PJ, have sadly underestimated people's intelligence, as this suggests. With a little more respect for those audiences we could have had an even better film.

[Talimon]

I don't think Saruman had any intention of them going into Moria. The scene where he is "speaking" Gandalf's thoughts shows that his intention is to scare the Fellowship from going into Moria, thus forcing them to head South. Also, I may have misinterpreted that scene, but in the book I always got the impression that there was some "other" force at work on the mountain. There is that reference by one of the Fellowship saying how Saurons hand has grown long indeed if he can call a storm on Caradhras. Gandalf, out of all people, acknowledges this. This in my opinion is meant to show how Saruman has fallen under Saurons influence.

PRH pointed out many obvious things...PJ straying from the book created more confusion and illogic then had he not exercised his foolish "vision".

Thorin, I beg you to read PRH's post... If anything he is criticizing Mark Ordesky, thus his last line being:

I think Mr. Ordesky is a little cornfused.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
Thorin, I beg you to read PRH's post... If anything he is criticizing Mark Ordesky
I basically like Mark - most of what he says everywhere else. I just think he's gotta be mistaken on this point.

As for Thorin, every little comment questioning some aspect of the movie turns into another reason PJ blows. I figure about 3 more posts before this turns into yet another 'Arwen at the Ford' thread.

[Arvedui]

This will not concern Arwen at the Ford, so two to go.;)
First of all, I have always imagined that Caradhras was acting on its own. Thus PJ's interpretation was not to my liking.
I can, however, understand Mr. Ordesky's comment:
Gandalf would never lead the Fellowship through the Gap of Rohan, because of the fall of Saruman. That leaves Moria.
In the event that Pippin had not made their presence clear to every inhabitant in Moria, I believe that the Balrog (Maia) would have senced the presence of Gandalf (Maia) and therefore have turned up anyhow. In Saruman's reasoning one must add the fact that he knows Gandalf, and know his powers and his loyalty. He knows Gandalf will fight the Balrog himself, if for no other reason, then to keep the Ring safe. The key here is the mission of the Ringbearer. Gandalf knows that, and he knows that he is the only one who can stand up against a Balrog and have a slightest chance at winning. And Saruman knows this as well.

[Nóm]

Arvedui,
While I agree that Saruman was probaby wise enough to know that Gandalf would put himself between the Balrog and the ring bearer, there is just no way that Saruman could be sure that any of them would get out of Moria alive. Chances were very much against it.
I think this is a bigger gamble than Saruman would be willing to take.
I doubt he could have known the details of the circumstances in Moria, such as the location of the encounter: the bridge.

I figure if Gandalf hadn't been on the bridge when he fought balrog that the entire fellowship would have been destroyed.

Unless Legolas decided to run for his life. ;)
Did everyone notice that Legolas stayed in back of the group until that Balrog showed up?

[aragil]

I just thought I'd say that I can't stand Arwen at the ford. Anyone agree with me?

[Thorin]

I agree! You know it just frosts me that PJ had to go and put that stupid Arwen scene or three in there and spoil the whole thing.... Hmmm. I believe I've been set up.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by aragil
I just thought I'd say that I can't stand Arwen at the ford. Anyone agree with me?

Aragil going off-topic on a completely random tangent...? Something smells fishy here... ;)

[PRH]

Originally posted by aragil
I just thought I'd say that I can't stand Arwen at the ford. Anyone agree with me?
right on schedule...

You know what burns me most about AATF? Asfaloth was supposed to have BELLS!!! I guess prissy little Liv Tyler didn't like the tinkling in her pwetty wittle ears, so there was no bells and in one fell swoop Asfaloth's character is totally destroyed!

[Arvedui]

On topic, and may movie-Arwen rest in peace. ROFLMAO

Nóm, Gandalf was on the bridge. And that clearly was his plan.
To the bridge of Khazad-dum!

He knew he had the best possibility to defeat the Balrog there, and not just anywhere.

I want you to take a look at this thread, and voice your opinions as well.
Is it Tolkien - or is it us? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7681)

[Parrot]

Asfaloth was supposed to have BELLS!!!
PRH, are you honestly suggesting Asfaloth in the movie was a mare? I really don't know how you can say with any certainty that it didn't have ..... oh wait, you said "BELLS", heh heh,... nevermind....

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Arvedui
On topic, and may movie-Arwen rest in peace. ROFLMAO

Nóm, Gandalf was on the bridge. And that clearly was his plan.


He knew he had the best possibility to defeat the Balrog there, and not just anywhere.

I want you to take a look at this thread, and voice your opinions as well.
Is it Tolkien - or is it us? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7681)

I know that Gandalf ment to be on the bridge, I was saying that Saruman didn't know that the encounter would happen on the bride. That Saruman, even if he thought Gandalf would do his best to protect the ringbearer, had no reason to think the fellowship would survive Moria. While it was possible, it was more unlikely than Saruman should bet on.

I will reply to that thread. I am always hesitant about posting in Ost-in-Edhil unless the opening post specifies that the discussion is open to everyone. I wil also post in your hobbit thread.

[Arvedui]

I agree that Saruman took a rather heavy risk, betting on an encounter with a Balrog, but what choises did he have? Could he hope that Gandalf would lead the Fellowship past his own front door, after having revealed that he wanted the Ring himself? I don't think so.

That leaves Moria, and a faint hope that somehow, the Balrog would bring him the Ring. Not the best hope, but at least some hope.

I have changed the heading of the first post. So feel free to post. Oh, you already did.. Thanks ;)

[Nóm]

If Saruman were wise enough to know that Gandalf would pick Balrog over Gap of Rohan then he never should have drove them from the mountain.

Since he did drive them from the mountain I can only assume that he wanted Gandalf to take the Gap and thought that Gandalf would. There is no reason he should rather them go through Moria than over Caradhras though.

What if the orcs or Balrog heard the clanking of the bucket and skeleton and just assumed it was some orcs, until they heard an old man's voice saying "...rid us of your stupidity!" :D

[aragil]

Then we'd be back to Gandalf 'choosing' to fall in Moria

Before anyone completely dismisses the Gap, you should all know that a certain ex-member used to argue passionately that the Gap would have been a much better choice than Moria in the books. Of course, I'm not saying that anyone believed this theory (myself included), but if anyone's interested, here are the links:

Saruman's Military Intelligence (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2302)- How much could Saruman or Sauron have known about the Fellowship at the time they disappeared into Moria.

So why did Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria??? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2058)- Re-hashing an older thread that was (sadly) deleted.

The Ring Thru the Gap (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2362)- More of the same.

Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3099)- Should Gandalf (or any of the wise) known that a Balrog was in Moria. Of course this last thread is less pertinent for the movie, as Saruman outright says "You know what the dwarves disturbed there."

[Nóm]

I know two of those threads by name and they are both interesting. I too think that it is a little funny that so many people did not know about the Balrog. The only thing to bother me in the books are insidents of unbelievable ignorance on the part of the wise. Everything else I can look past.

I don't want to relate any of this stuff to the movie though. The structure of events are different. I do not even believe that Saruman had a hand in the Caradhras business in the book. If he did, then it had to have been with the intention of killing them, or driving then back so that the wargs could get them. In that case he would had to have had some reliable way of getting the ring from the corpses which would be hard to do without alterting his workers about the Ring being very special.
If anything Saruman should have aided the fellowship until they neared a good place for ambushing them. Both in the book and movie, I think. :D
Just try telling an orc to bring back corpses, or dig through corpses for rings and see if that orc doesn't get suspicious. The ringbearer needed to brought in alive to avoid these suspicions and Saruman in the book and movie seem to know this. So, Saruman didn't do the Caradhras bit.

In the movie we have the same situation, he could have easily killed them on the mountain, then what? I best not think about the movie too much.

[Talimon]

Two quotes:

'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. 'They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'

'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimili, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'

'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf.

Gandalf has the last word here, and I believe that last sentence is an approval of Boromirs guesses. I believe this is up for interpretation, and as I said before I personally always assumed it was the enemies work, either through Saruman or Sauron. As for the hounds:

Gandalf stood up and strode forward, holding his staff aloft. 'Listen, Hound of Sauron!' he cried. 'Gandalf is here. Fly, if you value your foul skin! I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you come within the ring.'

Then later, in the morning:

'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. 'These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness. Let us eat quickly and go!'

Add these two quotes together, plus the spying crowes, and I don't believe PJ's interpretation of events is that distorted, if indeed it is distorted at all.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Talimon
Gandalf has the last word here, and I believe that last sentence is an approval of Boromirs guesses. I believe this is up for interpretation, and as I said before I personally always assumed it was the enemies work, either through Saruman or Sauron.....
Add these two quotes together, plus the spying crowes, and I don't believe PJ's interpretation of events is that distorted, if indeed it is distorted at all.

No, it does not. You are assuming that Gandalf was affirming that it was Sauron who was bringing the mountain down. Gandalf does no such thing. He only confirms that Sauron's arm has grown long, not that he is the reason why the mountain crumbles. Gimli moved the conversation into another area: from bringing the mountain down to having a lot of power. Gandalf's confirming the truth (Sauron having power) does not mean that he was confirming Boromir's suspicions. The way he ends it and states it matter of factly shows that Gandalf has latched on to the new concept of Sauron's arm growing long.

Plus, you are trying to link fabrications and changes from the movie with the book to prove your point. You cannot because you are missing pieces that aren't there. Firstly, never was Sauron's name mentioned in the movie concerning Caradhras, so anything mentioned in the book about this whole thing is mute, and never was Saruman mentioned in the book as being responsible for Caradhras, never mind being so obviously linked as one of Saruman's "allies" that Boromir speaks of. Hence Saruman in the movie is pure speculation which cannot be supported by the book. You can't link the two together when one didn't exist in the other. In the book it is the suspicion of Sauron for the mountain, in the movie it is the fact of Saruman. To link the two together, never mind justify PJ's change with the book is stretching it.

[aragil]

Originally posted by Thorin
never was Saruman mentioned in the book as being responsible for Caradhras, never mind being so obviously linked as one of Saruman's "allies"
Saruman was never mentioned by name in the books as having controlled the mountain, but it is certainly speculated that allies of Sauron might have done so. Is there nothing linking Saruman as an ally to Sauron?
Aragorn at the CoE
The shadow of Mordor lies on distant lands,' answered Aragorn. 'Saruman has fallen under it.'
Nobody in the book is mentioned as being 'responsible' for the mountain, including the mountain itself. Three things are speculated about in the books: the mountain itself, the long arm of Sauron, or one of his allies, as shown in the quotes by Talimon. In the books it is implied at least once that Saruman is in league with Sauron. Further, in the movies Saruman beseeches the Mountain to hinder the fellowship, rather than actually controlling the mountain himself. In other words, of the three things speculated in the books, two of them are shown in the movie. How is this so hard to swallow?

[Mablung]

Is there nothing linking Saruman as an ally to Sauron?

The Palantir

[Thorin]

Originally posted by aragil
Saruman was never mentioned by name in the books as having controlled the mountain, but it is certainly speculated that allies of Sauron might have done so. Is there nothing linking Saruman as an ally to Sauron?

As I've said before, to say that Saruman was an "ally" of Sauron, never mind is devoted crony as the movie shows it, is stretching it. To have Saruman directly bringing down the mountain and forcing the fellowship to turn back is EXTREMELY stretching it, and is not supported by the book. Plain and simple. It was nothing more than a creation of PJ to further enhance the villainy of Saruman.

Originally posted by aragil
Nobody in the book is mentioned as being 'responsible' for the mountain, including the mountain itself.

So the references to the mountain as "Caradhras the Cruel" and Gimli's warning about the mountain, and Gimli shaking his fist at the mountain, and Tolkien's personification of the mountain in numerous references like, "Caradhras was not finished throwing snow at them" which was responsible for them turning back, isn't reference enough?

Originally posted by aragil
Further, in the movies Saruman beseeches the Mountain to hinder the fellowship, rather than actually controlling the mountain himself.

Oh. So storm clouds raging over Orthanc, Saruman with his hands to the sky chanting incantations and storm clouds coming over Caradhras with lightening bolts causing an avalanche on the Fellowship was Caradhras? Please! It was one or the other. Tolkien or PJ; Caradhras or Saruman.

Really, these arguments are getting quite foolish. Just accept it for what it was: PJ's invention for dramatic purposes. I don't care if you like it or whether it worked in the movie or not. Just quit justifying it with so many loooooong, stretched out attempts of reason to connect it to Tolkien's scenes. they don't fit.

[aragil]

All I'm going to say is that if you understood the line in the movie that Saruman is speaking, then you'd understand that it was the fury of the mountain (yes, awoken by Saruman) that thwarted the fellowship in the movie. If you don't want to acknowledge this, then by all means, continue your crusade against PJ. Just keep in mind that it is your interpretation of PJ's film, and not PJ's film itself that you are railing against.

[Thorin]

What I'm telling you, is that the book shows more evidence that it was the mountain and NO evidence that it was Saruman. This whole "tying the movie scene to the book" to make it fit comes from deep analysis and comparison and gratutitous assumptions. An initial viewing and an initial audience reaction (especially a non-Tolkien audience) will take exactly what was intended: that Saruman brought the mountain down deliberately.

Are you telling me that PJ made it pretty clear that Caradhras had a mind of it's own? Not at all! The only reason WE know that is because we read it. It was not presented as such, and because the background which we know, was not presented as such, it was meant to be taken that it was all Saruman's direct influence. You cannot interpret the movie scene with the book's inference when the movie stands alone in its interpretation independant from the book.

[joxy]

Originally posted by aragil
All I'm going to say is that if you understood the line in the movie that Saruman is speaking, then you'd understand that it was the fury of the mountain (yes, awoken by Saruman)
So, what IS he saying?

[aragil]

Thorin- The book gives three possibilities for what forced the fellowship back: Sauron, allies of Sauron, the mountain itself.
The movie has no ambiguities- it is Saruman (acting as an ally of Sauron) and the mountain. Interesting- the things shown in the movie correspond with two of the speculative culprits from the books. Did JRRT ever type the word 'Saruman'? No. Did JRRT type the words 'ally of Sauron' and in other places imply that Saruman was acting as Sauron's ally? Yes.

Joxy- A theoretical question: If you wake someone up and then ask them to shoot a duck for you, and that person then shoots a duck, who shot the duck? Most of us would say that the other person did, even though you 'woke them up'. If you need me to be more clear with my diction I can, but this might get a little ridiculous.

[Nóm]

Cuiva is the first word and I know that means wake or awaken. I'll look around some sites to see if I can find the whole thing and it's translation.


But anyhow, there is a difference between the speculations made in the book and what is shown in the movie.
The book leaves it open for you to decide why the mountain was acting up. Sauron, Saruman, the mountain acting of it's own will, or none of the above. We can make our own sense of it.

When in the movie we see Saruman cause the mountain to do this, that means that this should make sense with the rest of the story.

PJ took this step and so it is up to him to make sure that this action by Saruman has a rationale.

To me the book makes the most sense if I assume that the mountain was acting on it's own because as I said before, Sauron or Saruman would be stupid to provoke this.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by aragil
Thorin- The book gives three possibilities for what forced the fellowship back: Sauron, allies of Sauron, the mountain itself.
The movie has no ambiguities- it is Saruman (acting as an ally of Sauron) and the mountain. Interesting- the things shown in the movie correspond with two of the speculative culprits from the books. Did JRRT ever type the word 'Saruman'? No. Did JRRT type the words 'ally of Sauron' and in other places imply that Saruman was acting as Sauron's ally? Yes.

The book casually mentions (by two superstitous races of ME no doubt) of Sauron being responsible. The rest of the treacherous attempt and all other evidence puts to rest that it is the mountain doing the damage.

Saruman bringing down the mountain is a broad interpretation. That and Saruman even knowing about the Balrog is nothing but giving away the story and gives Saruman waaay too much power.

[Nóm]

Cuiva nwalca Carnirassë!
(Wake up cruel Redhorn!)

Nai yarvaxëa rasselya taltuva ñotto-carinnar!
(May your blood-stained horn fall upon the enemy-heads)



This is from the quintessential Lord of the Rings site.

Funny, that Saruman asks the mountain to fall upon the enemy heads. Sounds to me like he almost got them killed, and then what?

[aragil]

Sauron promotes him to chief in charge of killing good guys.
Thorin- I'm happy with 'broad interpretation'.

[Glomund]

I want to support nom in calling saruman stupid in the the movie if he is causing the mountain to act, as it is his fault they are there at all. In the scene the ring goes south, G's voiceover is saying that they must go south for 40 days( a little biblical) through the gap of rohan but the crebain cause them to head towards the pass. If S had all that power, ex. to know where they were, how they would react to the mountain, and what would happen in moria, then he should have been able to know there original path, so he could have called of the crebain and let them walk into his lap, and started building his throne as ruler of middle earth.

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Glomund
I want to support nom in calling saruman stupid in the the movie if he is causing the mountain to act, as it is his fault they are there at all. In the scene the ring goes south, G's voiceover is saying that they must go south for 40 days( a little biblical) through the gap of rohan but the crebain cause them to head towards the pass. If S had all that power, ex. to know where they were, how they would react to the mountain, and what would happen in moria, then he should have been able to know there original path, so he could have called of the crebain and let them walk into his lap, and started building his throne as ruler of middle earth.

You know, I've also had a big problem with the movie's "ring-goes-south" episode. Namely:

1. Why in the world would Gandalf (of all people!) want to go through the Gap? He'd already taken one beating from Saruman, he knew that he was building a massive army, and that he was using the palantir to gather intelligence. Although the movie does a poor job (IMO) of explaining it, they have 3 options:a) Moria, b) the Pass, or c) the Gap (keep in mind I'm just using "movie-logic").

a) Moria: Gandalf knows the Balrog is there and is pretty sure that the Dwarves have been wiped out (see Saruman's voice-over). He can't know that it would take Pippin's foolish corpse to stir up the Balrog, Orcs, and Trolls (if indeed that's the reason). If I were Gandalf, knowing what he knows, I would have to assume that it would be inviting something terrible to go through Moria. The second worst option.

b) The Pass: the best option and I can't for the life of me figure out why that wasn't the first option of the Fellowship, given that Moria & the Gap were much worse choices.

c) The Gap: the worst option (see my opening paragraph). The only chain of options that makes sense is Pass (don't know if anything bad can happen), Moria (bad things there - may be able to slip by them), and the Gap (Saruman's got his eyes peeled for the Ring and has the means to go get it). I'd love to know what someone who hadn't read the book before seeing the movie thought about all this.

2. Saruman's too powerful. Given what we've seen so far (in the first two movies), I have to imagine that some of the audience who haven't read the book would think that Saruman's more powerful (I may be wrong on this - maybe the prologue explains Sauron better than I'm giving it credit for).

a) I, too, thought that it was Saruman himself calling down the mountain on the Company. The translation that someone posted above does make it possible that he's asking the mountain to do it, but it's still pretty murky. If he could make the avalanche happen, why couldn't he have sent the Uruk-Hai north to intercept the Company? I don't know exactly when he picked up the Ring's trail (was it the crebain? maybe, but he was watching them after the crebain left), but given the speed in which the Orcs got to Amon Hen, they should have been able to get to the Pass to greet the Company when they came back down.

b) So, where did Saruman want the Ring to go after Caradhras? The Gap, it would seem. Given the (faulty, IMO) logic the movie's used so far, it would have to be. Too many unforseen things can happen in Moria (although Gandalf's death-by-Balrog wouldn't cause Saruman to lose any sleep) to take the Ring out of Saruman's grasp.

[Isenho]

great points! all great :p