Is it Tolkien - or is it us?

[Arvedui]

This thread is open to all members of the Forum.

There are many threads to be found here at TTF, and elsewhere, where the most minute details of Tolkien's works are debated on and on.
This thread here is one example:

Saruman's Caradhras motives (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7670)
What, among other things, is done here is to discuss if the Balrog would've attacked the fellowship if it weren't for Pippin acting as stupid as he was. And that thread is one of the reasons why I ask myself this question:

Are we simply putting to much thought into the works of JRRT?

I mean: why bother whether or not? You can find it there, in black letters on a white piece of paper, saying that Pippin made a lot of noise, and later on, that Gandalf actually fought the Balrog. Is there any reason to discuss the why, what and if?

And this thread is my personal favourite:
Why didn't Frodo fly to Mount Doom? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3135)
And this idea have been mentioned elsewhere also.
My answer to that question would normally be: Because Tolkien didn't write it that way!

Are we simply putting to much into Tolkien's works, or what is it that makes us come up with all this? Is it really nescesarry?

I have my own opinion, now I want to hear yours.

Hopefully, this might help in recreating some of the activity Walter was begging for. I hope so.

[Gothmog]

Is it Tolkien - or is it us?

Well the only answer that I can give to this question is "Yes".

Tolkien created a World and a Mythology. He then told a story about that world. After reading about 'Bilbo Baggins and his absurd adventure' many people wanted more. So another story was told and this one did more than entertain the reader, it opened a door to that other world and invited you to look around.

It is not necessary that we have these threads and debates about the books, but it is fun. For me, it increases my enjoyment of the books. That anybody could tell a story that gives rise to such passions as are seen on the many tolkien sites around the net shows just how he was able to capture the imagination of people.

[Thorin]

Anyone who writes a work expects it to be scrutinized. Many authors write their works with this purpose specifically in mind incorporating allegory and symbolism. Many works have been discussed for millenia. That is the joy of the written word. One can find so much that means something to them and another can find something completely different in the same thing. That is what our English classes are based on, discussion of something concrete that can be referred back to and discussed to enhance learning and meaning.
LoTR falls under the class of great literary works. It is only natural that one would discuss even the minute points of this work. Let's not be ashamed and embarrassed to "pick it apart"!

[Lhunithiliel]

And if you permit me say, I think that it is because people recognize our world and us in Tolkien's ME and its inhabitants...And people start looking at themselves as from aside and this is the best way to analyse yourself...Or maybe this was Tolkien's reason... To make us look at ourselves and at the world that we are changing being so irresponsible!

And I would also like to quote a few lines I read in an edition of the "Hobbit" (I have just received it from the USA :) )
He (Tolkien) is a great enough magician to tap our most common nigthmares, day-dreams and twilight fancies, but he never invented them either: he found them a place to live, a green alternative to each day's madness here in a poisoned world.
Peter S.Beagle

[Walter]

I think there exists a great variety of reasons why people join online communities (like TTF) and partake and contribute to the site. Two of the most basic and common reasons IMO are

1) because it is interesting, and
2) because it is fun.

In both cases there may be different underlying reasons for 1) and 2)

As long as either applies (or both), no hair will be too fine to split and and no topic be too far-fetched, if a few people find some delight in it, it will be discussed, if it is once brought up (in spite of others who might find the issue boring, annoying, etc.)

As for the "pratical usability" of the "results" (if any), of such a discussion it is less important, since there is - in most cases - no declared "mission" or "goal" which would make such results (of an individual thread or topic) necessary.

An overall result, like - in case of non-commercial sites - spreading information and enthusiasm about the communities main topic of interest (e.g. Tolkien's literary works) will be achieved independently from the results of any individual thread or topic.

In case that commercial interests are involved with the site, the underlieing motivations may be different, but the mechanisms and effects work just the same way (hence such non-commercial online-communites are in many cases "used" as a starting point or side-branch to provide and prepare a clientel for the main commercial interests) but that's a different story...

[Pale King]

I can see both sides on this one. Arvedui - I agree that sometimes (myself included sometimes) we get hung up on the minutidae of Tolkiens works to the extent that it becomes a discussion that is no longer even about Tolkiens writing, but about some hypothetical "what if" scenario that bears little resembelance to anything that Tolkien created. When people ask why Gwaihir didnt just fly off to Orodruin with the One I often find myself thinking "its a story - please just accept it as such". I think that many people also seem to forget that the story was written as a mythic pre-history, and as such there will (and should) be gaps in our knowlege of that pre-history. It is remarkable that there are so few gaps in fact. For this reason its surely more satisfying to accept for example that Bombadil remains and enigma than to endlessly concoct more and more elaborate and far-fetched theories for his identity.

On the other hand, theres little that I enjoy more than learning something new about Tolkien and his works so while these chats go on I find it hard to resist lurking on the outskirts looking for the occasional gem:) .

[Nóm]

Are we simply putting to much into Tolkien's works, or what is it that makes us come up with all this? Is it really nescesarry?

I do not think we are putting too much into Tolkien's works. I think each person is fine to put however much thought and imagination they'd like into it. The amount of thought and speculation put into the works is different for different people.

What makes us come up with this? I say it is the same thing that makes us ask similar questions about our own world. Curiousity, fascination, and for some a desire to understand why and how.

Nescessary? Yes. For those who do it. It is part of the enjoymeny of the books. It is great to get wrapped up in a story while you're reading it, but it is just as good for some to find the things thought provoking.

I would even guess that those who think more about Tolkien's books, think more about our own world than the average person does.

What puzzles me is how some people can tell me the name of every person, place, and thing in The Silmarillion, and give alternate names, and they know the events as though they've read the book 50 times, and yet if you ask them a question who's answer isn't spelled out in the book, they simply have no ideas. I've met a couple people like this (not at TTF) and I just do not get it.

I also think that people love Tolkien's world so much that they want more, and in thinking and discussing about it, they keep that world alive.

I think we are able discuss the books the way we do because they seem so real, and I also think that they seem so real because we are able to think and wonder about the world in which these stories take place so the world exists to us even when we aren't reading the books.

Is there any reason to discuss the why, what and if?
Enjoyment and satisfaction.

The eagles failure to help out more in The Lord of the Rings did uses to puzzle me sometimes, but after reading The Silmarillion I am content.
About Pippin's stones - I dont know, and I don't care.
Balrog wings? - don't care.
Tom B? - don't care
The msytery that bothers me most is Gildor Inglorion. I want to know the story of his life.
But mysteries aren't my big thing with Tolkien, I'm more interested in philosophical type questions.
Are the Valar to blame for Feanor's rebellion?
Melkor, evil by will?
And the motivations and thoughts of charactors.
I posted this in a thread a few hours ago:
Of all the types of 'errors' that occur in Tolkien's books... the only to bother me is the one where a 'wise' person does not know something that I think they should have been able to figure out.

On the whole I think we intellectualy treat Tolkien's world as we treat our own.

I see no harm or wrong in any of these things.
Are we simply putting to much thought into the works of JRRT?
We? No. But individuals might be and that is for them to measure.

[Arvedui]

I stated that I had my own opinion, and I wanted to wait a little to give it away, but I feel that we are going somewhere here.

I do not think we put too much into the works of Tolkien. I actually believe the main reason why we are acting as I described, is a sure sign of Tolkien's greatness. He created a world where we can read, think, learn and understand more and more everytime we read one of his books. And even if we can do that, there are always new details to be learned, new views to discover.

Of course many discussions could be killed by stating: 'Tolkien wrote it that way!' But then we would also deprive ourselves of the opportunity to use our own imagination, to learn of other peoples ideas, and to give something of yourself to the benefit of others.

So to sum it all up from my point of view: We might be putting too much into the works of Tolkien, but if we did not, we would only be passive readers. My personal opinion is that Tolkien created such a fantastic world that we cannot remain untouched by it. His works deserve that we discuss every tiniest detail.

And that also explains why I am so delighted at having found this forum, were I find som many people with the same interest as I have. Thank you all for beeing just as crazy about Tolkien as I am, and continue to enlighten my experience of JRR Tolkien.

Of course, I could have just said: 'Read my sig!'

[Turgon]

I think there is something in us which makes us (that is too say we who frequent boards like this one) delve so deeply into Tolkien's work. After all there are many people who are lovers of the good professor's world and yet do not get much out discussions, deliberations, debates and such. It doesn't make them less knowledgable - after all it's all there in the books; or less in love with Middle-earth - again Middle-earth is different to each person who perceives it. Some people I guess like to keep their love affair private. It just a matter of choice really - To delve or not to delve. Personally I feel that to delve too deeply is to diminish the illusion of wholeness that Tolkien worked so hard to create. This is especially true of certain books in the HoME series (The Return of the Shadow and so on) but then not to delve at all is to miss out on many gems hidden in the depths. Eek!?! I feel a Balrog metaphor coming on...

[Ravenna]

I think part of it is also that in one sense, while the published works like LoTR are 'finished' items, they can also be regarded as 'works in progress', after all Tolkien was making notes and rewriting bits of the stories, up till his death, more or less.
For me part of the fascination of these discussions is the different angles portrayed in different places. A question is asked, and apparently answered, until someone comes in with 'But in HoME its got a completely different, outcome/interpretation', and off we go again. Of course, much discussion then comes over which version is best/truest/my favourite.
Partly too, imo, such intricate debate on Tolkien's works is able to happen due to the much alluded to lack of allegory in them. There is no one right interpretation, as put by the author, as there are in some purely allegorical works, so who cares who's utterly correct, as long as we can enjoy the debate and get others to at least listen to our opinions, as Walter said earlier in this thread, if it's interesting and fun, why not? (very bad paraphrase there, sorry!)
For me personally, its a way also to learn more about Middle Earth, without having access to all the books (yet), and to get at least some of my questions answered by those who know more than me.

[Chymaera]

Tolkien has created a world and a mythology to support his stories which we have all enjoyed.

Here is over 10,000 years of history including Gods, elves, men, dwarves, hobbits, ents, trolls, giants, and other creatures. The main stories are covered fairly well and are revisited and rewritten numerous times and there are stories that are skimmed over with less than a paragraph and other stories that are just implyed which are never explored.

It is all ours to explore!

If debate and discussion ensues that makes it that much more fun.

So I agree with Gothmog. Yes it is Tolkien and Yes it is us. That is how it was meant to be.