swords and scales

[Rúmil]

This morning I went to a conferance, and quickly regretted it as I got bored out of my mind. So I started drawing Aragorn with Andúril. Then I realised that PJ had made a serious (well, serious...) scale mistake on Andúril, and Aragorn while he was at it!)
here is how it goes:

1 - Andúril was formerly Narsil, the sword of Elendil

2 - Out of all the swords made my mighty smiths of old (Telchar in this case), Elendil obviously chose the one wich most matched his stature.

3 - In UT, Elendil is told to have been 2 1/2 rangar, i.e., about 8 foot to 8"2'

4 - He problably wore it the most usual way, in a sheath at his side.

5 - According to the usual proportions oh human beings, Elendil's sword hung roughly 4" from the ground (or up to 4"6' if he wore it on a shorter baldric), at an angle, and down to ankle-hight. (I assume the owner it was originally made for wore it across his back and wielded it two-handed). so we have a 4"6' to even 5"-long sword.

6- In Lotr, Aragorn, being of royal Númenorean blood, is said to be much taller than men of later days, even taller than Imrahil and Faramir (see the Field of Cormallen, book VI); but in the movie, Aragorn is roughly the same hight as Boromir and Gandalf, and generally as most other men and elves they meet. This in itself is quite a major scale error, but I'll let it slide since due to budget cuts (and not enough time to study the book in detail) he probably couldn't make him any taller.

7 - so (finally), my point is: Aragorn (the movie one, anyway; the 'real' one either wore it across his back or wery short under his armpit) could not have worn Andúril at his waist, as he does in the movie!
(or is it Andúril he wears? anyway we'll see Narsil in the other two movies, and they're bound to have overlooked this)

So do you think I'm just demented to make such a fuss over nothing?

[TheFool]

In FOTR film (I haven't seen EE) he does not have Anduril/Narsil. It is still in pieces waiting to be re-forged.

The thing that bugs me is, when you see the 'shards of Narsil' laid out on the plinth in the film, there is no way that those pieces could be put together into a long enough sword! The most they'll get out of those pieces is a very wide dagger :D ;)

p.s. Rúmil I think you may have your feet-and-inches symbols mixed up there

[Rúmil]

Rúmil I think you may have your feet-and-inches symbols mixed up there oops. I'm French and I grew up with Metric. Every time I use feet and inches something goes wrong :p

[Mablung]

Tolkien's Narsil would be approximatly 1 and a half to 2/3 meters I think probably wrong but thats ok. But even in the flashback scenes Elendil didn't look like a giant to me.

[Eledhwen]

The trouble with the movie is that most actors fall within the 5/95 SD percentiles for height. I think PJ wanted Hobbits, Dwarves, Men, Elves and Numenoreans to be of 'normal' body proportions, which meant using average size actors and making them look taller/smaller. Generally, all he tried to do was make Gimli a bit shorter and the Hobbits a lot shorter, ignoring any other height differences. It's just another short cut in the transfer from paper to celluloid.

In response to TheFool's comment, I noticed that too. I also think it was an error to omit Andúril from the film - it was a tangible and powerful picture of the link between Aragorn and Isildur.

[Rúmil]

In the prologue, it's normal for Elendil not to look like a giant because all the other Númenoreans would be very tall as well, though not quite as much as Elendil. But Aragorn being so short kind of bugs me. I've read a lot of complaints about the hobbits constantly changing scale, but I never noticed anything, even after watching the film 5 or 6 times. Aragorn is another matter though.

[TheFool]

There are many instances in Tolkien when characters 'draw themselves up to their full height' or 'seem to fill the room' - I thought it was great how, in FOTR, they did this with Gandalf's 'do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks' bit. My point is, does anything like this ever happen with Aragorn, and could it be worked into the film? or would it be confusing for the audience if he suddenly seemed to have 'magic powers'?

[Rúmil]

But when Aragorn arose all that beheld him gazed in silence, for it seemed to them that he was revealed to them now for the first time. Tall as the sea-kings of old, he stood above all that were near; ancient of days he seemed and yet in the flower of manhood; and wisdom sat upon his brow, and strength and healing were in his hands, and a light was about him (Lotr, book VI chapter 5)

I do suppose it would be surprising for a movie audience, but natural to the knowledgable reader: after all, he does have Maia blood (not to mention Elda) Maybe they could come up with some sort of compromise?

[TheFool]

They could definitely work something up with the lighting at that point - and the music as well. TTT looks like it has loads of Aragorn-hero bits in it, so it will be very interesting to see.

I also hope Narsil doesn't end up like that (for want of a better word) silly sword in Braveheart - I mean not like an 8-foot-long 3-handed sword with a grip half way down the blade. I hope it's something subtle, eg the FOTR zoom-in shot of Sauron's 'helmet' where it looks quite plain, but is covered with intricate fine patterns...

[Talimon]

A couple points worth noting:

1. Narsil isn't reforged as Anduril in FotR. PJ has said in an interview this has been moved on purpose to RotK.

2. There is a book-cover for RotK that shows Aragorn holding Narsil, and it looks pretty big to me. Go to www.books.com. Then type in 'Return of the King' in the search field. Scroll down until you see what I'm talking about. It shows Aragorn on the cover holding Narsil.

[TheFool]

That looks pretty good to me. It's a 'big' sword without being a 'huge' sword. Sort of like a hand-and-a-half sword :)

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
2. There is a book-cover for RotK that shows Aragorn holding Narsil, and it looks pretty big to me. Go to www.books.com. Then type in 'Return of the King' in the search field. Scroll down until you see what I'm talking about. It shows Aragorn on the cover holding Narsil.
That's not Anduril. That's still Aragorn's Ranger sword. You can tell by the hilt, but not from that picture. I've seen the same picture elsewhere without the ROTK title covering the hilt.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by PRH
That's not Anduril. That's still Aragorn's Ranger sword. You can tell by the hilt, but not from that picture. I've seen the same picture elsewhere without the ROTK title covering the hilt.

If it's not Anduril it's a somewhat random picture. I remembered seeing it in the book-store and noticing how it all the broken shards were melted together. You can't see it in that picture, but the actual texture of hte swords has a lot of small devisions. I'll post that pic if I find it elsewhere.

[Talimon]

Here we go.

The pic from the book-cover:

http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/ttt/people/aragorn/temps/image11.shtml

Another interesting pic. This one looks more like Anduril to me:

http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/ttt/people/aragorn/temps/image9.shtml

[PRH]

Nope. Still the Ranger sword. This is all stuff from Helm's Deep (though the picture appears on RoTK). Notice the Uruk Hai in the background.

This (http://www.budkww.com/partfullview.asp?partno=UC1267&image=uc1267.jpg&name=Lord+of+the+Rings+Narsil+Sword&catpos=99999&subject=H&discflag=) is Narsil, so I imagine Anduril will look more like this, only with new runes.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by TheFool
There are many instances in Tolkien when characters 'draw themselves up to their full height' or 'seem to fill the room' - I thought it was great how, in FOTR, they did this with Gandalf's 'do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks' bit. My point is, does anything like this ever happen with Aragorn, and could it be worked into the film? or would it be confusing for the audience if he suddenly seemed to have 'magic powers'? After what they did to Galadriel in the mirror scene, I hope they don't bother!

Also, if it's true that Anduril appears in RotK, then PJ is saying he can re-write Tolkien better than the original. I suppose it also means that in PJ's TTT there won't be any argument about weapons at Theoden's place (maybe just about Gandalf's staff), where Aragorn shows his humility by yielding to Theoden's authority in his own kingdom and suffering Anduril to be removed (we've been discussing it in a thread about Glorfindel and Elrond).

[Talimon]

Originally posted by PRH
Nope. Still the Ranger sword. This is all stuff from Helm's Deep (though the picture appears on RoTK). Notice the Uruk Hai in the background.

This (http://www.budkww.com/partfullview.asp?partno=UC1267&image=uc1267.jpg&name=Lord+of+the+Rings+Narsil+Sword&catpos=99999&subject=H&discflag=) is Narsil, so I imagine Anduril will look more like this, only with new runes.

How then do you explain the black spotches on the sword in the second pic I posted? Blood?

[Mablung]

I would it doesn't look nearly majestic enough in my opinion to be the real Anduril. The guard also looks different which would not be changed if it was simply remade from a bunch of shards.

[Eledhwen]

Perhaps this will help you argue this out. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rj.stelling/features/sword/

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
How then do you explain the black spotches on the sword in the second pic I posted? Blood?
Blood indeed, the black blood of orcs. You gotta admit that if those were joints where it'd been reforged, the elves would've done a pretty crappy job.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by PRH
Blood indeed, the black blood of orcs. You gotta admit that if those were joints where it'd been reforged, the elves would've done a pretty crappy job.

Well, with all due respect to the elves, we're not talking about any old sword here... it would take a mighty furnace to melt and forge Narsil anew without any markings or scratches on it. But I'll take your word for it :).

[Eledhwen]

If you guys stopped arguing for a minute and clicked on the link I have provided above, you will find out how to make a sword. You will also read that the process of normalising the blade realigns the crystalline structure of the metal, so the reforging would not result in cracks or dents in the sword. Also, we're talking Middle Earth Elves here - the guys whose kin forged the rings of power. I think they could manage reforging a sword properly.

[PRH]

Good info there Eledhwen.

Talimon - I don't think we've actually seen a picture of Anduril yet. Not that I'm aware. I don't think cracks (if there were any) would be black, and they certainly wouldn't change the guard on Narsil.

We'll have to wait and see.

[Rúmil]

I suppose it also means that in PJ's TTT there won't be any argument about weapons at Theoden's place (maybe just about Gandalf's staff), where Aragorn shows his humility by yielding to Theoden's authority

Not necessarily; the argument could happen even without Narsil (though that does make Aragorn look a tad fussy) A central point of this passage is Gandalf refusing to yield his staff, which is a element of the theme of his power and dignity having been so much increased (his power is now greater than that which is woelded by Saruman through Wormtongue)
But anyway, PJ has stated that TTT would be the least faithful to Tolkien of the three films, so just brace yourselves and hope for the best...

[Eledhwen]

I thought this thread would be helped by some technical info on the armour in LotR.From: http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/lord_of_the_rings_2_new.htmOne of the biggest challenges of WETA Workshop was to create functional armor that had the appearance of having gone through battle, but was also comfortable and safe for actors. "WETA went to great lengths to hand-make everything in Middle-earth," explains Taylor. "Hand-beating the armor out of plate steel exactly as it had been done in the Medieval era; the swords being hand-ground out of plate steel; the hilts and crossbars cast out of the lost wax casting. In the process, we were trying to make sure the physics of the manufacturing complemented very closely that which was available 500 years ago."

WETA set up a foundry with two full-time armor smiths, Stu Johnson and Warren Green, to hand-beat and hand-make the armor from steel. From these original suits, molds were made and 48,000 separate pieces of armor were made for all of Tolkien's Middle-earth civilizations, including Elves, Orcs, Uruk-hai, Rohans and Gondorians.

Taylor, with the aid of designs by John Howe, wanted to create armor that had a different look and felt authentic. To make them functional, WETA designed mock chain maille from rubber tubing painted to look like metal. A department of four full-time chain maille technicians assembled more than 12 million circular links to make up the hero suits featured in the trilogy.