Guild of Elves: The house/line of Elrond

[Maeglin]

Hey everyone in the guild this is going to be our first discussion thread, yayyy!:) But anyway what its going to be is this: I am going to post a genealogy chart(also known as a Pedigree) of Elronds family/ancestors going all the way back to Beren and Luthien, and we will spend at least a few days on one particular part of his ancestry at a time before moving on to the next part(in an effort to give people more time to post and so we don't go all over the place), we will discuss anything any of you would like to about that particular part of Elrond's ancestry at a time, thanks, your leader:D,
Glorfindel

P.S. sorry I can't put up the chart right now but I'm running out the door and don't have time now, but if any of you want to start discussing something go right ahead.;)

[Rasec]

Very nice indeed. I can't wait for the chart. =)

See you soon,
'Cesar.

[Earendil]

hye glorfindel! no rush but i can't wait either this is so exciting!!!;)

[Maeglin]

Hey everyone I made a chart but then my computer P!$$ed me off and screwed it all up! so it might be a day or two before I get one up, thanks for your patience,
Glorf

[Anamatar IV]

Hey glor, these people seem excited so you wouldnt mind if I put mine up, would you? :)

P.s: I wasnt sure how far back you wanted Earendil's line.

[Maeglin]

Thanks Anamatar!:) For some reason I couldn't copy and paste the one you sent me onto the thread:mad:.

But anyway to the rest of the guild if we continued what anamatar was kind enough to make for us we would see that Elrond married Celebrian and there children were Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen. The descendants of Elros (Elronds brother) were all of the kings of Numenor, Arnor, Chieftans of the Dunedain, etc. in direct descent all the way down to Aragorn, who, we all know, married Arwen, ewwwwwww arwen married her like 60th cousin!:p

Anyway, someone must have something to say about Beren and Luthien, although you could look at it as there being a lot to say about it or very little, but personally I think there's a lot that can be said, so I suggest that if you own the Sil to reread the chapter "Of Beren and Luthien" and we'll talk about it in a couple of days, or if you want to say something about it now and you don't feel you need to reread it then feel free to post something, but I'm gonna go read it cause its been about 8 months since I read the Sil (and that was for the first time so I'm still confused about a lot of things.)

[Anamatar IV]

oh you were looking for the line of Elrond AND BEYOND. okay. gotcha;)

I am not sure everyone in the guild has read the sil so it might be a good idea to give an overview of the chapter:

(remember this is a very quick outine. Any parts that you will need Silmarillion background I will put what it is in [])

Beren son of Barahir stumbled into the woods of Doriath [the realm of Elu Thingol, and elf]. He came across Luthien [daughter of Thingol and Melian, a maia. Luthien was fairest of all elves] Beren was brought before Thingol and thingol told Beren basically that to get Luthien's hand in marriage he would need to bring to Doriath a silmaril [the prized jewels of beleriand].

In this chapter Beren was imprisoned by Sauron with Finrod Felagund and other people. Sauron sent in were-wolves and each were wolf devoured one person. When the were-wolf came for Beren Finrod through himself before the wolf and they killed each other.

Eventually Luthien came to the rescue of Beren upon Huan [the great hound of Valinor]. Huan fought Sauron (in wolf form) and soon Huan won the battle...
...over a while beren and luthien came before the throne of Morgoth [the bad guy] and Luthien put him to sleep. Beren cut a silmaril from his crown and tried to cut another but pricked Morgoth instead. As Beren and Luthien trried to escape the great hound of Morgoth (greatest wolf of all) caught them and he bit off Berens hand. The silmaril burned the wolf's stomach and he went on a rampage. Beren was poisoned and died for the first time. He came back to life and married Luthien but Luthien had to give up an immortal life.

This is in as simple terms as it gets. In days I cant tell you an outline of this chapter for it is great: read it. You will never understand how great it is until you do. Check the book out in the library just to read the chapter if you have to;)

[Maeglin]

You told us to post little bits of information we know, well I know pretty much that whole chapter but I'm going to read it again just to make sure it is fresh in my memory.;)

[Anamatar IV]

I dont mean on the chapter but rather little bits you know of Elrond and his ancestors. such as (noting that I did not put Elros on the chart):

"Elrond's brother is Elros."

And then someone else who knew more of this would say
"Elros chose to be a mortal man while Elrond chose to be an elf."

and then someone else might say:

"Elros became the first king of Numenor." and so forth.:)

[Maeglin]

ohhh okay, gotcha.

Well I could probably go on and on about this but for now I'll just say that when Elros became the King of Numenor he took the name Tar-Minyatur.

[Carantalath]

Slightly off topic but I have a question about Elrond's wife. What ever happened to her? Did she die? If so, how? Or did she go back to Valinor? I always wanted to know what happened to her.

[Maeglin]

she(Gilraen) did not die, but If I remember correctly she was taken and tortured by orcs in the mountains, and her wounds were beyond the skill of Elrond to heal, so yes she went off into the west.

[Anamatar IV]

youre confused Glorfindel. Gilrean was ARAGORN's MOTHER. Elrond's WIFE was Celebrian. Indeed all of what else you said was correct.:)

[Maeglin]

Ahhh whatever they're all related (however distantly) anyway.

[Rasec]

I have some questions. Well, Elros and Elrond, since they were sons of an elf and a human, they could decide if they were elf or human. Ok. But when they choose to be elf they get immortal and when they choose to be human they die?! That seems like obvious, but I was thinking to myself that this is kind of strange. I don't know why. And how do they choose this? They just go there and say "I want to be an elf" or human?? Or is there a ritual or something? I'm confused. Hope you are able to answer it. Yes, I have read The Silmarillion.

'Cesar.

[Maeglin]

When you ask "do they just go there and say", by there do you mean Aman? Because if you do well no they can't go to Aman, and I would assume that is because they have to make their choice of what they want to be first, for example: Elros chose to be a mortal, but since he chose that then he could not ever have gone to Aman because it is not allowed for mortals to go there, so he had to make his choice first, though I am sorry to say that I am not sure how they make that choice, maybe Anamatar can help us out with this one, or if he can't I am sure some genius mod like Grond or Anc or Lantarion will read this and give us an answer.

[Anamatar IV]

I have absolutely no idea. That is a very good question, Rasec. I would love it if a mod could help us...

[Maeglin]

Alright well lets get the discussion started, does anyone have any questions on the specifics of Beren and Luthien(for any of you that haven't read it) or anything to say about it, well if not then I will find something and post it in here later, but right now I am still looking for something really worth talking about in that story. Well I mean the whole story is worth talking about, but just the story in general is too broad.

[Eöl]

Just a thought for anyone who's really interested in The Silmarillion...There's a Silmarillion discussion going on over in the Silmarillion forum, we are currently only on the first but I am actually very proud to be doing the introduction for "Of Beren And Luthien"! I am sure it will be a challenge but I hope that maybe some of you can give me some feedback when that time rolls around.

[Maeglin]

Yeah I am part of that too Celebrien, but my chapter isn't until March or April, and I don't think yours is for a whole year!:eek:

[Carantalath]

Thanks for answering my question! I can't think of anything right now but I'll come back on later and try to add to this thread.

[Anamatar IV]

okay then I suppose I will continue. Let us start on Elrond's fathers side: Earendil

He also was pitted with the decision to choose between mortal and immortality. By choosing a mortal life he would lose his beloved wife, Elwing. By choosing an immortal life he would never set foot on Middle-earth again-thuus forsaking the land and people he loved.

He chose an immortal life and remained ever in Aman.

[Anamatar IV]

any questions at all?

Then I will go on.

The voyage of Earendil is a chapter in the Silmarillion. It tells of Earendils (when he was still mortal) voyage to Aman. He sailed on his great ship, Vinglot. Over the years earendil was constantly trying to sail to AMan but he never made it. One day he had a feeling of ill-fortune while he was at sea. So he turned and tried to sail back but the waters were turbulant.

Back in Earendils land news came to the sons of Feanor that a silmaril was there. The sons of Feanor slaughtered the people. Dior, son of Beren and Luthien, was captured. Elwing, Earendils wife, cast herself into the sea-still clutching the silmaril.

And Elwing died--but being an elf she returned to Aman. Earendil finally got home and found everyone slain. So he boarded his ship again and sailed once more the seas. [is forgetting alot of what happened]

Elwing came back to Earendil in the likeness of a great bird and she had the silmaril with her. *bunch of love story stuff;)*

Earendil finally made it to the shores of Aman, with the silmaril upon his brow guiding him.

[Rasec]

I do not know if this is too much out of subject, but I have a question: I know there was one Mortal Man who dared going to Valinor. Who was him? I thought for an instant that it was Eärendil. I do not remember now. What say you?

'Rasec.

[Anamatar IV]

well Earendil was the first mortal to set foot on undying lands.

But later, by the lies of Sauron, a fleet of Numenor sailed to Valinor--I think they were crushed by hills but Numenor was sunk.

[Maeglin]

Yes that is right Anamatar, but I can't remember his name....

[Anamatar IV]

Ar-Pharazon:)

[Rasec]

Oh yes, thanks. That's it. I was rather right after all. =)

'Rasec.

[Anamatar IV]

Now let's move on to Elrond's grandfather, Dior. Dior was the son of Beren and Luthien. Now thats a big thing;)

umm...glor, would you like to add something about Dior?

[Maeglin]

Well he was Thingol's heir, but when the evil nassssty dwarveses came and pretty much slaughtered Thingol and a ton of his people they ran away, but then Dior got taken by the sons of Feanor, and remind me here Anamatar, what became of Dior afterwards? I really can't remember, I can't even remember if it is mentioned.....

[Rasec]

By the way, did Dior also have the choice of being either mortal or immortal? I don't remeber now.
Wow, nobody remembers things after all.

'Rasec.

[Maeglin]

Oooh that is tough, I am not sure, but he probably did get to choose, unless he was killed by the sons of Feanor or something.

[Anamatar IV]

No he didnt:

Dior was mortal because, even though Beren was mortal and Luthien immortal, Luthien chose mortality to be able to spend her life with Beren...so both Beren and Luthien were mortal

[Rasec]

Ah, yes! Sorry for my stupidness (exists?). I had forgotten that Lúthien had chosen to be mortal to marry Beren, if that is. Of course that when they had a child, she was already mortal. Thank you Anamatar.

'Rasec.

[Eöl]

Interestingly enough, Dior is also part Maiar because of his grandmother Melian. So, he is therefore part man, part elf and part Maiar. Crazy stuff! I don't think there was ever anything like that in Middle Earth again.

[Anamatar IV]

Luthien gave up her heritage to be a mortal so Dior really isnt Elvish or Maian.

[Eöl]

I don't know about that, I think she still was an elf, it's just she would die like a human. I just think immortality was taken from her, not heritage so she is still of elf-kind and not fully a human.

[Anamatar IV]

But all of Beren and Luthien's kids were of the mortal race-meaning that both the father AND the mother need by Man.

[Earendil]

i agree with Celebrien...Luthien did not have a mortal life any more but she was still an elf and still had her heritage...i'm sure....because an immortal life does not define what an elf is....

[Anamatar IV]

let's move on:

We've heard of Beren and Luthien, of Dior, of Elwing and Earendil, there isnt much to say of Elros, so let us reach the final part of the genealogy:

Tuor and Idril. Does anyone have any questions or comments about this first?

[Maeglin]

Do me a favor and please remind me exactly who Tuor was, he was an elf right? and how was he related to the sons of Feanor? sorry but its been a while since I read it.

[Rasec]

Yes, Glorfindel, I don't really remember Tuor. There are so many elves in The Silmarillion that it is hard to remeber them all. Well, I guess Anamatar the Master could help us. ;)

See you and Merry Christmas!!
'Rasec. (or Cesar, my real name).

[Eöl]

Well actually, Tuor is a man, fostered by the Grey Elves of Mithrim. He was given a message to take to Gondolin from Ulmo the Vala. There he met, fell in love with and wedded Idril Celebrindal. They gave birth to Earendil, and escaped the sack of Gondolin by fleeing to the mouths of Sirion in the south.

[Maeglin]

ohhh okay now I remember it all, thanks Celebrien.

[Earendil]

its been awhil for me too but i have one question...we never found out what happened with them after Tuor sailed away right?

[Rasec]

Thank you, dear Celebrien. See you all soon.

'Rasec.

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Earendil
its been awhil for me too but i have one question...we never found out what happened with them after Tuor sailed away right?

Tuor didn't sail away...he was mortal. I am not sure but I think he was killed in the sack of Gondolin.

[Maeglin]

Yes I think you're right Anamatar, he was killed in the Fall of Gondolin, otherwise he would have been with his children when they made their escape.

[Eöl]

From The J.R.R. Tolkien Handbook by Craig Duriez -

There he married the elf-maiden Idril. With her, and their son Earendil, he escaped the fall of Gondolin.

It doesn't say how he dies, and my friend has my copy of The Silmarillion, so I don't know, maybe some one else who has it could find out.

[Anamatar IV]

Tuor did sail into the West:confused:

Dont know why...he was Edain...Im probably missing something from the book.

[Earendil]

i dunno if he sailed thats just how i remembered it....i dunno i just don't recall what happened to both tuor and Idril.....

[Carantalath]

I thought that Tuor sailed into the west too, in an attempt to find the Undying lands so that he could ask the Valar to help the people of Beleriand defeat Morgoth.

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Tuor did sail into the West

That was Earendil who ventured to move the Valar to force upon Melkor.

[Earendil]

yes but i remember tuor sailing to the west or at least sailing away...and that Idirl sailed after him or something like that adn i don't think we ever heard about them again........but i'm not sure.....

[Carantalath]

That was Earendil who ventured to move the Valar to force upon Melkor.

Earendil is the one who actually reached Valinor. Tuor and Idril attempted to go there but they never made it. Maybe they drowned or something in the ocean.

[Eöl]

Ok, I have my Silmarillion back, and I will set the record straight...

Then the heart of Idril was turned to him, and his to her....Turgon did not refuse him even the hand of his daughter

So he married Idril, and the second union of Man and Elf was made.

In the spring of the year after was born in Gondolin Earendil Half-elven, the son of Tuor and Idril Celebrindal...

If you have looked at the chart then it shows that Earendil is the child of Idril and Tuor so that one's obvious.

...none knew that the region where the Hidden Kingdom lay had been at last revealed to Morgoth by the cries of Hurin...But Idril Celebrindal was wise and far-seeing, and her heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit as a cloud. Therefore in that time she let prepare a secret way...

This tells of the secret passage through which Idril, Earendil and Tuor later escaped.

Then Tuor and Idril led such remnants of the people of Gondolin as they could gather in the confusion of the burning down the secret way which Idril had prepared.

Thus led by Tuor son of Huor the remnant of Gondolin passed over the mountains, and came down into the Vale Of Sirion...

Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Earrame, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

So there you have it, I didn't tell what happened before he reached Gondolin, but basically everyone he lives with is killed and he is left alone as an outlaw. Ulmo the Vala brings him a message, and he takes it to Gondolin, where he meets Idril. And the rest is history.