Saw it! - my comments:

[PRH]

Saw it last night. Good times.

Here's some comments on some things which we've talked about (spoilers!):



1) There's no Brego story. Aragorn doesn't let him go, he's not identified as Theodred's horse, nothing. He just shows up to rescue Aragorn (Aragorn identifies him as Brego though). Must've been cut for time.

2) No Huorns at Helm's Deep. This is what we originally suspected but then the "Helm's Deep battle map" in the back of one of the movie guides made us wonder. Anyway, they're not there. It would probably have been too much anyway. It was a great climax to the battle without it.

3) Arwen and Aragorn kiss like 4 times. A bit much if you ask me. Otherwise, her stuff was very appropriate and very sad.

4) Appearance of Gandalf to the 3 hunters was great -- notice the melting of Gandalf's and Saruman's voices, works to nice effect.

5) Sadly, Saruman is not developed as 'being in it for himself' any more. He is 100% Sauron's lackey. The non-Uruk's of the group of orcs transporting M&P are not identified as being from Mordor. There is no dissent in the group about where to take the prisoners. This is too bad. I was hoping we might see more of the 'book' Saruman's motives but it was not to be.

6) Gollum exceeded my expectations for realism. Set your's high. He was great!

7) The Elves at Helm's Deep seemed more appropriate than I had expected. They don't steal the show and in reality it makes a little more sense than in the book. Why was this whole war Man's problem in the book while it was the Elves who started all the trouble with the forging of Rings? Is it all Isildur's fault? Well, this is a full debate in and of itself, but I was not as bothered with their presence as I expected to be.

8) Sadly, also, there was basically no development of Aragorn's rise to become king. It is spoken of in 3rd person by Elrond, so the potential is laid out again, and Arwen tells Aragorn his path is laid before him (in flashback), but there is no 'real-time' development of Aragorn's wishes and intentions. The line from the original 3 1/2 minute March preview - "He fears you Aragorn, he fear what you may become" was not in.

9) Along with #8, there was nothing regarding the broken sword. Seems strange. I can't imagine their gonna skip this but it seems weird to go a whole movie without any reminder. The only thing - Elrond looks at the painting of Isildur holding the broken sword up to Sauron. The shot from the March preview of Arwen approaching the shrine is not in. Arwen does leave Rivendell though (as was seen in the final trailer). So what's to become of Narsil? TTT EE anyone?


Overall, great great movie. I'm not sure I would place it above FOTR (if forced to compare the two, which isn't really necessary). I'm still having to digest the merits of all the changes though, and there were a lot. So many of the same events and lines from the book were in the movie, but it did not feel like the book very much at all. My feelings will probably change with repeat viewings, as they did with FOTR. I just wish I turn 'turn-off' all knowledge of the book to freshly evaluate this as a movie and not as a book on screen.

I can answer any pressing questions anyone has, here or in PM (although Wednesday is fast approaching!).

[Celebthôl]

how have u seen it? (i may be wasted but i still no it wont come out until 18-12 so how? (soz if this is spelt wrong, im kinda drunk and qont remember this tomorrow)!

Thol

[Thorin]

How in the world did you see it this early?

Anyway. I'm sorely disappointed to here about Saruman. I was hoping that with PJ having the orcs taking the ring back to Saruman rather than to Mordor showed that Saruman wanted the ring for himself. I guess all the FADs can eat their words with the whole Lurtz thing "Who do you serve?" "SAAARUUUMAAANNN!". Why PJ didn't turn this around to make it obvious that Saruman was playing sides is beyond me. Sad sad sad.

1)What were your thoughts on Treebeard? Did he come across as realistic?
2)Were Merry and Pippin's characters grow and develop more from buffoons?
3) Helm's Deep?

Please do tell! ;)

[PRH]

Originally posted by Thorin
How in the world did you see it this early?

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/1/1038889641
Same deal last year. Hoping for the same next year.

Anyway. I'm sorely disappointed to here about Saruman. I was hoping that with PJ having the orcs taking the ring back to Saruman rather than to Mordor showed that Saruman wanted the ring for himself. I guess all the FADs can eat their words with the whole Lurtz thing "Who do you serve?" "SAAARUUUMAAANNN!". Why PJ didn't turn this around to make it obvious that Saruman was playing sides is beyond me. Sad sad sad.
I guess so. Rather disappointing to me too. The character of Saruman serves much less purpose because of this.

I seem to remember tiny TTT clip somewhere of Pippin saying to Merry "they think we have the Ring" while their captor orcs were stopped. This was not in the movie. Glimmer of hope that this might be touched on in the EE.

Galadriel even refers to Saruman as Sauron's puppet.

1)What were your thoughts on Treebeard? Did he come across as realistic?
2)Were Merry and Pippin's characters grow and develop more from buffoons?
3) Helm's Deep?
1) Yes, I thought he was quite good, and plenty realistic. Small (very small) complaint that he didn't seem to be part of the background when he was walking some of the time. No big deal, he looked and moved pretty great. Couldn't really ask for much more. The voice was pretty good but unfortunately sounded too much like Gimli. JRD was probably not the best choice for Treebeard's voice since he couldn't differentiate the two enough. A few of the other ents looked nearly cartoonish in the face, but not quite. Close call there. Storming of Isengard was all I could've hoped for.

2) I'm of the opinion that in FOTR they were extremely well represented compared to the book (except for stealing crops - it might be in their nature (at least Pippin's) but they're both rich, so why? except mischief, which explaings the firework). But even so, yes, they don't fool around in this movie really at all. I was worried though that they weren't going to amount to anything plot-wise (fulfill their 'rippling of small stones' role), but they did.

3) Helm's Deep was quite excellent. The progression of the battle was fairly similar to the book. Subtract Huorns, add some help from Elves, change Erkenbrand's cut-off troops to Eomer and Rohan exiles and you're on track. Even the part where Aragorn and Gimli (no Eomer obviously) sneak out the side door to protect the gate is there. The 'blasting fire from Isengard' was very well done. Legolas and Gimli held their contest but we never hear who won (there would've been no appropriate place after the battle to do this anyway). I don't want to ruin any more for you!


Here's a fairly big problem I had with the movie: 3 story lines. It just didn't feel right. I know that's how it goes in the book but I found it to be a quite different story experience with the intercutting as opposed to the full (or nearly full) stories told seperately. In FOTR, we followed the one group the whole time (with a few cuts to Isengard). In TTT, the constant shifting between 3 different groups really lent a different, very 'episodic' feel to TTT which took some of FOTR's magic out for me. I know it probably wouldn't work at all to tell the seperate stories in full as in the book, but I kind of wish that the intercutting was less frequent; that we stuck with each story for longer periods. I don't know...just felt strange (actually, it felt much more like a conventional movie in this regard).

[PRH]

One more thing (spoiler):

Interesting facet about the Aragorn/Arwen relationship - Aragorn basically dumped Arwen (for her own good) before he left Rivendell with the Fellowship. This explains her look at the farewell scene in the FOTR EE, but not his...

They (PJ/FW/PB) are really trying to make it look like they won't get together. I suppose that's pretty interesting.

[Ancalagon]

I was reading through a review recently by a BBC critic, who said the film looked to have been subject to the same desperate editing that The Fellowship suffered from! For those of you who have seen it, is this your opinion also? Do you think this release is cut down for the masses, whereas the EE will satisfy much of the NPW gripes? Personally I felt the cut scenes from the original release dramatically reduced the quality of the viewing, not from any other perspective than it simply looked amateurish!!

[PRH]

Yes. Probably more so than FOTR. At times it really felt like a desperate attempt to whittle it down to 3 hours. Some of this was just noticing parts that I know were shot which were cut, or even parts from trailers that weren't in. At other times, it was just rushed editing. That fact that it was 3 intercut stories amplified the rushed edit feel even more. I never found this horribly distracting in FOTR, but it was getting a little distracting in TTT. Again, my opinion will probably change with repeat viewings, it was a lot to digest.

I'm of the opinion that FOTR TC flowed a little more smoothly but the EE certainly fleshed out the story more. In TTT, I think we might find that the EE will both flow better in pacing as well as flesh out the story.

[PRH]

Another thing - the FOTR EE wasn't really as crucial a primer to TTT as it was made out to be.

Aragorn's lineage story wasn't really developed any more so those scenes in FOTR EE didn't matter much to TTT.

The only gift that is explicitly shown is Sam's rope. He ties up Gollum with it and Gollum can't stand the pain (as in the book), so the gift giving scene didn't play into TTT very much (maybe more in RoTK?). We also see lembas bread so that's good I suppose.

It was good to give Haldir a little more screen time in the EE because he shows up at Helm's Deep and it warmly greeted. Wouldn't have meant as much seeing him after his brief appearance in FOTR TC.

edit: Elven cloaks come into play too

All in all, I doubt anyone would be too lost at any point having only seen the TC of FOTR.


One more gripe - One of my favorite lines was not in!:
Frodo: "But he was alive and strong when we parted. And he lives still for all that I know. Though surely there are many perils in the world."

Faramir: "Many indeed, and treachery not the least."

[Thorin]

Originally posted by PRH
Interesting facet about the Aragorn/Arwen relationship - Aragorn basically dumped Arwen (for her own good) before he left Rivendell with the Fellowship. This explains her look at the farewell scene in the FOTR EE, but not his...

They (PJ/FW/PB) are really trying to make it look like they won't get together. I suppose that's pretty interesting.

Actually, that's mortifying! This just goes to show that the NPWs are justified in PJ's potrayal of Aragorn. Mrs.Maggot is going to have a field day with this! Aragorn denies his birthright so much that he is even willing to shirk the one thing that drives him in the book: winning the hand of Arwen. What a crock!!

The story is being changed. This is beyond a mere character change or cut, it is seriously altering the story. From a noble, kingly ranger who seeks to grasp his birthright and become king to winning the hand of the fair elven princess to a selfish, prodigal son who not only wants nothing to do with his heritage, but also tries to show his unworthiness of earning it by trying to convince his betrothed that it's not worth it. Why? Because he doesn't really want the throne anyway.

Please FADs, surely you have more little respect for Tolkien's Aragorn and will voice some sort of negative response to this concept that seems to be escalating in the next few movies!

[Kelonus]

I still think TTT and ROTK will still be good movies. Maybe it would be better if it was actually following the book. It would of been hard maybe, but still its close to the book.

[Mablung]

or even parts from trailers that weren't in.

Its actually pretty common to only use edited out parts in the trailer. If you watch you will notice it happens a lot.

[Ancalagon]

I suppose my main concern is whether the flow of the films is interupted by the splicing of the story? Consider a 'non-Tolkien' viewer watching these individual works. If they cannot equate missing parts of the original story due to poor editing, does the film tend to leave them stranded, clutching for some hidden meaning, only known to those who have read the books?

[morello13]

NPW and FAD? What fo they stand for?

[Niniel]

I wanted to ask that too;)
What I really want to know is what you your opinion is about the change in Faramir's storyline. He is one of my favourite characters and I am very worried about what they've done to him. I have heard a lot of negative comments on it. What do you think?

[Talimon]

Sounds good PRH. I'm seeing it on Tuesday, so I'll put my thoughts up then. What did you think of Faramir?


NPW stands for "Nit Picking Weenie", and FAD stands for "Film Adaptation Defender". Personally I prefer "critic" and "fan", or at the worst "purist" and "film-defenders". ;)

As for Narsil, I believe PJ confirmed in one of the old interviews that this will be addressed in one of (if not the) first shots of RotK. I'm not so sure about Aragorn not gaining his confidence, though. I'll have to see it before making up my mind about that.

[Éomond]

Yes, I would like to know about Faramir.

What about Erkenbrand? Was he in it?

How was Osgiliath? Was there a Nazgul flying over the city?

That's all I want to know:) Thanks

[PRH]

Ancalagon: I think non-readers will be just fine. They really do an excellent job of outright story-telling (which story their telling is another matter...). The main confusion for non-readers is probably going to be "where in Middle Earth are we" and "what's the deal between Gondor and Rohan, how do they relate?" Other than that, I doubt non-readers will miss what's missing.

Re: Faramir -- I liked 'book' Faramir quite a bit. I don't think he would've worked very well on screen though. This 'movie' Faramir makes it possible to put F&S in more peril, and round out a semblance of a story for them (in this movie alone). Taken on his own, 'movie' Faramir is a pretty great character. He is a lot like Boromir I suppose, but he isn't quite so personally tempted by the Ring. It's more like he thinks that obviously the right thing to do is use it. After some time and deliberation and convincing he sees the proper course. If he had been at the CoE, he certainly wouldn't have gone the way of Boromir. It's kind of funny, Faramir says a lot of the same things, but in the book they're almost in jest while in the movie they're serious. I don't think that 'movie' Faramir really changed too much, he was really just too wrapped up in the war to take the time to stop and deliberate on the matter of Frodo for long. By the end, he is essentially of the same mindset as the Faramir we know in the book. I do feel like the Henneth Annun Faramir scenes were a little rushed though, and I was surprised how openly the Ring was spoken of around the other Rangers. The Forbidden Pool scene was right-on btw. Finally, what it was exactly that changed Faramir's mind escaped me a bit. Maybe he saw the exchange between F&S right before he let them go. They didn't show him watching though. I'll have to see if this part makes sense on my next viewing, maybe I missed something subtle, all 3 story lines were climaxing at the same moment.

Re: Erkenbrand -- no, unfortunately he's not in. Hama is and Gamling is (though he's not called Gamling the Old and he doesn't look it anyway).

Re: Osgiliath -- yes, there was a flying Nazgul. It was the same black rider from FOTR, riding upon the exact 'fell beast' of John Howe's drawings.

Re: Narsil -- I knew it wouldn't be reforged, I just would've expected some talk of it. Perhaps Elrond gazing at the mural was enough of a reminder of the sword's story?

Re: dumping Arwen -- yes, I suppose this is a rather odd alteration after all. It flows pretty logically from Aragorn's lack of intent to ascend to the throne though. The strangest thing is that she seems to have the hots for him more than he for her. Aragorn clearly still pines for Arwen in the movie (TTT) but doesn't feel at all worthy of her it seems. Why he's not all over Eowyn in light of turning from Arwen is beyond me. Well, their last interaction was a big hug so...who knows what RoTK will bring in this crazy 'love triangle.' This better turn out real great to be worthy of this level of changes.

[Ithrynluin]

Is Galadriel present in TTT (I think she is but I'm not sure)? What is her role in the movie?
I think I'll be getting pretty mad at PJ very soon! He includes her in The Two Towers needlessly and yet she probably won't be present at Aragorn and Arwen's wedding in ROTK (because she tells Aragorn they shall not meet again). Are such witless alterations really needed PJ????:mad:

[PRH]

Galadriel has one scene. She talks to Elrond from afar somehow... It's a good scene. It basically functions as a voiceover for her and Elrond's thoughts on the current situation.

[markrob]

Thorin would u calm down and hold off your spars and jabs at least until the TT is officially released? Let us FAD's see it first and then we can engage in stimulating conversation. And truthfully we really wont know totally how to evaluate the flick until the release of RoTK. I no doubt believe these spoilers are biasdly (is that a word?) accurate but I of coarse want to see the job myself. Wont be long will it? I would love to go see it with you Thorin, hell I might even buy you some popcorn. :p :D

[PRH]

Originally posted by markrob
I no doubt believe these spoilers are biasdly (is that a word?) accurate
Basically considered myself to lean more FAD than NPW...

[Thorin]

Originally posted by markrob
Thorin would u calm down and hold off your spars and jabs at least until the TT is officially released? Let us FAD's see it first and then we can engage in stimulating conversation. And truthfully we really wont know totally how to evaluate the flick until the release of RoTK.

I'm trying, marky, but each review I read makes it worse. I can accept changes to the story, but the 'altering' of character plots is bugging me more and more. Saruman and Aragorn's transformations into characters other than what Tolkien intended them to be, IMO, goes against what Tolkien wanted. Tolkien was very specific about leaving his characters the way they were. Were it just plain old cuts and edits and little liberties taken with the facts, I could live with it. This is getting to be too much. How will this affect the route these characters are taking for RoTK?

Originally posted by markrob
I no doubt believe these spoilers are biasdly (is that a word?) accurate but I of coarse want to see the job myself. Wont be long will it? I would love to go see it with you Thorin, hell I might even buy you some popcorn. :p :D
That would be some sight to see:

"Martha, who the heck are those two guys choking each other in the front row? They they're growling something that sounds like 'fads' and 'weenies'."
"No clue, dear. Now be quiet so I can watch that warrior elven princess Arwen save that nice fellow from drowning."

[markrob]

LOL, thats pretty good. A couple more days and 2/3's will be revealed.

[Winch]

Man, I was under the impression that the sword HAD been reforged and that they just didn't have much to do about it. I thought there was a reference to that in the FoTR EE. I thought it was being skipped over too much but it seems like the whole kingly ascention thing is being downplayed so far anyway.

[Éomond]

Originally posted by Winch
Man, I was under the impression that the sword HAD been reforged and that they just didn't have much to do about it. I thought there was a reference to that in the FoTR EE. I thought it was being skipped over too much but it seems like the whole kingly ascention thing is being downplayed so far anyway.

That's what I thought. I think in the book Narsil is reforged, isn't it?

There was a reference in FotR EE:
"...The skill of the Elves can reforge the Sword of Kings, but only you have the power to wield it."
"I do not want that power. I have never wanted it."
"You are the last of that blood-line, there is no other!" Elrond and Aragorn, FotR EE

[PRH]

In the movie Aragorn carries his Ranger sword and Narsil continues to sit on the shrine (through the end of TTT TC).

In the book Narsil is reforged into Anduril before the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell.

[Winch]

Is there a scene of it still on the shrine in TTT? If not, I'm going to have to freeze frame it on two TVs to compare it. The one Aragorn is shown about to pull when he tells Boromir to give the ring back to Frodo sure looks like the one on the shrine.
I'm hoping you're right and that PJ still makes a big deal out of it. It is as important as the sword in the stone was to King Arthur.

[PRH]

No. The only Narsil reference in TTT is Elrond staring at the mural of Isildur holding the broken sword up to Sauron.

In the 3 1/2 minute TTT preview from March, there is a shot of Arwen approaching the shrine, presumably to collect the shards for reforging (or just to admire?). This is not in TTT TC.

The sword Aragorn nearly draws on Boromir on Caradhras is not Narsil. It's his Ranger sword. The guard and the pommel give it away every time.

This (http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/ttt/people/aragorn/temps/image11.shtml) is the Ranger sword.

This (http://www.budkww.com/partfullview.asp?partno=UC1267&image=uc1267.jpg&name=Lord+of+the+Rings+Narsil+Sword&catpos=99999&subject=H&discflag=) is Narsil.

As far as we know PJ will make a big deal out of the reforging of Narsil. The last we heard on the matter was that the reforging would happen toward the very beginning of RoTK.