The Two Towers Reviews

[Talimon]

In an attempt to save space and help consolidate some of the inevitable discussion, I am starting this thread as a place for members to post thier thoughts and reviews on the film The Two Towers. This will serve two purposes:

1) To serve as a future reference for new members interested in past discussion and opinion regarding this film.

2) To serve as a single thread where members can post thier reviews on the film.


The other purpose I see to this thread is that it will be something of a record regarding members opinions about the film at the time of its release. When RotK is finally released next year, I am planning on starting another thread in each of the three movie forums asking people what thier thoughts on the films are in retrospect. Having threads like this one that capture peoples initial reactions will be a useful contrast, and no doubt amusing.


Before we begin, a few basic rules:

1) You are free to reply to and discuss each others opinions. However, please have your first post in this thread be your review of the film.

2) Only post in this thread if you have already seen The Two Towers!!!

[PRH]

Well, I don't know if I want to write a review per se, but I will put down my impressions after one viewing:

I don't think it was as good as FOTR. FOTR had a much better ending, more emotionally satisfying. TTT just kind of stops after some battles are won. Also, the FOTR benefited from basically one story line (with a few jaunts over to Isengard) while TTT was split between 3 (with bits of a few other stories). I know this is how the book goes (although in the book the stories are mostly told in full before jumping to the other stories) and there's probably no way around it, but it detracted from the utter magic that was FOTR. TTT, with it's intercutting stories felt rather episodic, and just downright more like a regular movie.

The time (3 hours) flew by. This movie felt much faster than FOTR. Also, FOTR had that feeling that it should be over when Boromir died, then it had 3 more scenes - so the ending kind of dragged on (though it was a great great ending, especially to a 'to be continued' story). TTT did not have this feel to it.

Helm's Deep was excellent. Good fighting. The desperation escalated over time. They saved the best for last. Everything looked great. Yes, a success.

Gollum is the most believable CG character to appear in a film yet. The model looked great (render-wise), he fit into the set very well, the interaction with the human actors was spot on, and the animation was very un-cartoony (thanks largely to the motion-capture I'm sure). Strangely, the fish he handled from time-to-time looked a little fake. Go figure. His voice was pretty great, but perhaps a sounded a little too much like he just had laryngitis. Gollum as a character was pretty great too, although (after one viewing mind) I felt his schizophrenia was a little over the top. It's basically like they completely separated Smeagol and Gollum into two distinct personalities. I always had more of the impression that they were the polar opposites of his good and bad will but not actually two distinctly different people. This seemed to simplify Gollum a little bit. It's actually 2 sectioned off people in one body wrestling with one another rather than Gollum just wrestling with his own will.

Treebeard looked pretty great. I was worried he (and Gollum) would come off as fake and really bring the movie down. Nope. He looked plenty real. The design of Treebeard was really good too. I thought his voice sounded pretty good but suffered from sounding obviously alike to Gimli. Also, he didn't always blend in to the backgrounds 100% when walking but it was good enough I think.

Storming of Isengard was just right. It looked great. The Ents really kicked some butt and had the right level of anger. One weird edit - only one ent seems to have anything bad happen to him (catches on fire -- possibly Beechbone?). Right after this shot is the time they choose to cut to Saruman's terrified self. Odd. The flooding was great and it was pretty funny when the one ent douses itself in the flood.

Editing: Seemed rather rushed in places. It felt like there was a desperate struggle to keep it at 3 hours.

Merits of changes:

Addition of Arwen scenes - very good. She didn't interrupt the real-time narrative at all and it gave us a heart-wrenching look into her perspective on things. This was the saddest part of the movie. Too much kissing between Arwen and Aragorn though. They behave a bit more like a couple who are...a bit too familiar with one another.

Elves at Helm's Deep (EAHD) - fairly good. This didn't distract much from Rohan's hand in things. The Elves' reason for showing up was pretty solid - honoring the old alliance (although the alliance was not between Men and Elves so much as Elves and Gondor/Arnor). The help from the Elves was nowhere near a deciding factor in the battle. It felt to me like the reason for EAHD was not just to show off Elf warriors (as had been theorized) but rather for solid story telling reasons. Why aren't the Elves helping in the war at all? Well, should the movie just have them say it's not the Elves' fight and leave it at that? Doesn't really work. Didn't work too good in the book for me either. After all, the Elves started all this Ring business so they should help end it (unless you blame everything on Isildur).

Movie Aragorn re: Arwen - not so good. He is shown to have essentially dumped Arwen before embarking with the Fellowship from Rivendell. It is supposedly for her own good, so she can have a life in Valinor. One surmises that Aragorn in the lineage-rejecting state felt unworthy of such a mate. Well, for book Aragorn, the love of Arwen was a driving factor in his deeds of the war. She was what he wanted most. It's hard to swallow the idea that Aragorn would willingly give her up, especially being that Elrond (in the movie) had not set the requirement upon him that he become king before he could wed Arwen. Nevertheless, it's pretty sad stuff. It works apart from the books.

Movie Aragorn re: king - no so good. There is no development of Aragorn insomuch as his lineage guilt vs. intent to ascend to the throne. He seems to be in the same place as he was at the end of FOTR. The only difference is that he risked his life to fight alongside men and lead them, but the fight was against Saruman - his enemy already, so big deal! The only information regarding Aragorn as king comes in conversations between Elrond and Arwen as Elrond explains that even if Aragorn becomes king as she hopes he will still die. It serves nicely as a reminder of Aragorn's lineage, but doesn't develop his ascension story at all. After FOTR, I liked what they seemed to be doing with movie Aragorn. I'm not so sure now. When will movie Aragorn finally catch up to book Aragorn? I hope this pays off big to be worth this degree of change.

Saruman re: alliegiance - bad. We were holding out hope after FOTR that Saruman would reveal that he was trying to get the Ring for himself, and even possibly overthrow Sauron himself. Not the case. His portrayal in TTT was wholly as a servant of Sauron. There was no quarrel between Isengard orcs and Mordor orcs about where to take the prisoners (no orcs are even identified as hailing from Mordor). Galadriel names Saruman as Sauron's puppet. Saruman swears his alliegiance to Sauron over the Palantir. It's just not good. This has diminished Saruman's character a great deal I'm afraid. I don't understand why this was done unless a) they don't think the audience would understand of b) relevant info was cut for time and might possibly be included in TTT EE (glimmer of hope).

Faramir - so-so. I don't have extremely strong feelings on this. Sure, they changed Faramir some, but if he'd have been the same guy as the book there wouldn't have been much peril for Frodo and Sam in this movie. They did cut my favorite Faramir line ("Frodo:...many perils in the world." Faramir:"Yes, and treachery not the least."), and unfortunately he doesn't speak of his dream. The character stuff with Faramir was actually quite rushed. It's hard to actually pinpoint what it was that changed his mind about Frodo in the end too. I may have missed a small detail in my first viewing. I'll watch for this next time around. By the end, Faramir seems to have caught up to book Faramir.

Warg attack - what was this? Just an excuse to show off Wargs and the Rohirrim cavalry? Another chance to show Eowyn wanted to fight? A way to give Hama a screaming death? A roundabout way to have Aragorn espy the army from Isengard? An excuse to work in another (virtual-) kiss from Arwen (was this meant to be some turning point for Aragorn in his relationship with her?)? An excuse to work in an invented sub-plot about Theodred's spooked-horse which ends up getting totally cut? A chance to make Theoden look insensitive? All of the above? I'm at a bit of a loss here. None of this is to say it wasn't a pretty cool scene.

I could probably go on and on but I'm sick of writing. Maybe I'll post an addendum another time.

All in all, great great movie. Doesn't stand alone nearly as well as FOTR (not that it needs to). The liberties taken with the book are a bit hard to swallow at this point, we'll see what time and repeated viewings brings.

[PRH]

Originally posted by PRH
Warg attack - what was this? Just an excuse to show off Wargs and the Rohirrim cavalry? Another chance to show Eowyn wanted to fight? A way to give Hama a screaming death? A roundabout way to have Aragorn espy the army from Isengard? An excuse to work in another (virtual-) kiss from Arwen (was this meant to be some turning point for Aragorn in his relationship with her?)? An excuse to work in an invented sub-plot about Theodred's spooked-horse which ends up getting totally cut? A chance to make Theoden look insensitive? All of the above? I'm at a bit of a loss here. None of this is to say it wasn't a pretty cool scene.
I was thinking more about this. I really don't think we needed another action set piece. We had the Rohirrim destroying the Uruk-Hai and Gandalf vs. the Balrog towards the beginning. We also had Faramir's men vs. the Haradrim near the middle (the Rohirrim and the Haradrim battles could've been souped up a bit to take up any slack in cutting the Warg attack). Unless PJ really felt like he wanted to show off the cavalry I don't think another action scene was needed to keep up the excitement.

So was it for plot points? If so, they really didn't do a very good job with it. The 'loss' of Aragorn didn't really kill everyone else's spirits to the degree it could've. This also could've been a big character moment for Aragorn. He could've either make some progress in his thinking about becoming king, or his intentions toward Arwen. All we really get it that he still cherishes the Evenstar pendant (and presumably her too). We don't even get the Brego subplot which would've been at least something! We also don't get a shot of Aragorn floating lifelessly down the river (I saw video of them shooting this scene, Viggo almost drown, and it doesn't make the cut?!?). What we're left with is a minor point for Eowyn (she'd rather fight, but needs to lead the people to Helm's Deep), and a chance for Aragorn to spot the troops. Big deal, a scout can do the same thing. Oh, and everyone's happy Aragorn is alive, that's just super. That cool moment where he pushes open the doors to the Hornburg was severly chopped short. Real bad edit there.

Maybe I can make more sense of the necessity of this whole sequence on repeat viewings but right now, it seems like it may have been conceived with high hopes but was cut down to a fairly meaningless story alteration.

One more thing I loved in the movie -- near the beginning, the 'toe breaking' scream was great (In reality, Viggo actually broke his toe when he kicked an orc helmet. He screamed in pain, but it is played as a scream of grief).

[FallenOne]

I just saw TTT & I really like the movie...

Ack... 3:40AM... Need some sleep...

Later.

[Talimon]

I saw it!!! I just feel like I've lost 30 pounds ;).

So, what do I think?

Driving home, I remembered my own words here on the forum a week or so ago: this movie is not supposed to stand on its own. No matter how many times I repeat this, you wont truly understand it until you've seen the film. As I was walking out of the theatre, my two main thoughts were a) the film had a bad begginning, and b) it had a bad end. Perhaps I should clarify:

We start the film with some shots that really reminded me of the way Braveheart started. We see a number of shots of the Misty Mountains, and again we are reminded how superb the visuals on these films are. We are then thrown into the story. If you do not have FotR fresh in your mind, your reaction might be similar to mine: we are thrown in far too violently. When I say "fresh in your mind" I literally mean having just seen it: I saw FotR over the weekend, and I still had this reaction. The fact is, we are not re-introduced in any way to our charachters. It's funny, because you watch films your whole life not realizing how many elements go into introducing a new charachter. When you see a charachter, you expect to be introduced to them. PJ has already done this in FotR, and does not spend time doing this again. I suppose the only cure to this feeling I have will be to ultimately see TTT right after seeing FotR: literally ending one and starting the other within the same hour. PJ has stated that TTT ought to be viewed with only a popcorn break between it and FotR. I am still surprised how literal he is when he says it. It is absolutely true.

As for the ending. To be honest with you, this is a film that I feel will benefit from an EE much more then FotR. I might even say it "needs" an EE. The ending comes far too early, and with too many story lines still lingering unfinished (the ents, the Rohirrim in the cave). Again, however, I remind myself: the tale is not over. It is not meant to feel finished. But nonetheless, the ending here feels far more forced then the one in FotR. I can only hope that either 1) RotK will make complete sense of this, or 2) the EE will round things out. The last scene of the film is actually one my favorites in the two movies so far (the one between Frodo and Sam, talking about how thier tale might be told in the future). That scene is very well played out, and has PJ doing what he does best: taking elments of Tolkien that never stood out for me and making them special. It's just the way the different threads are cut together that doesn't feel right to me. But, as I said, I have to keep in mind that ideally PJ would have me take a 15 minute break and come back and finish the tale with RotK. So maybe things will look different in retrospect.

The easiest way for me to lay things out is to simply list what I liked and what I didn't:

Good:

Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. In my opinion these were clearly the best parts of the movie. All three actors do a brilliant job, especially Gollum. There were times when Sam didn't work for me, but in general this thread of the tale worked the best. It had a clear begginning, a solid middle, and a strong end. In a sense the scenes with Gollum are the ones that really carry this movie. He has plenty of superb scenes, and I still couldn't get enough of him. I am absolutely in love with him. Cinematic or not, I'd have a whole film with Gollum alone. And he's CGI!!! If this film were to do nothing more, Gollum would be enough. Absolute brilliance. I'll go see this film again for Gollum alone. In fact, although the Frodo thread of the tale is given plenty of time, I wanted more of it. Considering that I was never a big fan of Elijah Woods Frodo, this is really a compliment to the actors improvement. Frodos charachter really grows, and there are scenes between Frodo and Sam that were great. Frodo really starts getting demented. I remember Ian McKellen saying there were scenes between Frodo and Sam in RotK that made him cry, and we get glimpses of this here. Some may argue this doesn't stay true to the book, but I'm willing to argue in defense. I guess some folks will criticize Frodo defending Gollum and being a little hostile to Sam, but this is only the work of the ring, and is founded on scenes from the book.

Helms Deep. This is the clear set-piece of the film, and it gets plenty of screen time. You should be warned, however: the camera in these battle scenes is unrelenting. It is largely shot with a handheld camera, and you just have to play along. If you are getting a little dizzy, chances are that is what the director inteded. The contrast to this are the "helicopter shots", better know as long shots. These are often breath-taking, so much that you might start feeling a little overwhelmed. The shots where the orcs are moving the ladders up to the walls are unbelieveable (in a good way ;)).

Arwen. I can already hear it... the purists are screaming and preparing to wage thier own war. Well, I honestly don't care. Without Arwens scenes I'd say that Aragorns charachter is rather shallow in this film. But Arwen adds a whole other dimension here. In all fairness, her tale is not directly relevant to the tale at hand. But if my guesses are correct this will all climax together in RotK, and it will make tons more sense. As scenes on thier own, though, Liv Tylers scenes really impressed me. There is one scene where the romance just nearly tops over, but luckily it is restrained. In the end Arwens scenes are tragic, not romantic. The scene between her and Elrond is really powerful. This scene sheds a completely new light on Elrond. And the way Liv said her line in Elvish when crying summed up the whole tradgedy and sorrow of the Elves for me. And the music here is absolutely haunting... sounds almost Indian...

It is a given perhaps that the production design here is incredible. But I cant stress it enough. The gates of Mordor dropped my jaw. The horn that orc blows is absolutely mythic. The statue of Helm looks ancient. Edoras is so well designed... the special effects... the cinematography... in this respect alone I'd argue TTT surpasses FotR.

Bad:

I am just going to come out and say this. I may change my mind on repeat viewings, but for now I stand by it: The Ents ought to have been just cut from the tale. "WHAT?!?" you are screaming. I'm sorry, but they add absolutely nothing. I'm not complaining about thier look. They look perfectly fine, and that didn't bother me in the least. But thier tale is just far too obscure. Innitially I thought it was bad editing, but I've been convinced otherwise. Yes, as a plot device they help destroy Isengard. But to be frank with you, at the end of the film I don't feel we need this extra climax. Helms Deep is quite enough of a battle climax, and Frodo and Sams tale has plenty of emotion. What does the Ents climax have? Nothing. The only theme here worth noting is the Ents fighting industry, but it felt too literal for me. After just a couple scenes with Treebeard I was prepared to say, "This will be much better on the EE." But now I'm convinced otherwise. I don't think it's even the scripting; Most of the lines are from the book. But the Ents almost feel like a Tom Bombadil for me: it's a nice story in the book, but it is just uncinematic. Here we have the stakes getting higher and higher, and then we have this slow, dare I say "boring" tale happening in the woods. In retrospect, the only way Tolkien got away with it was stuffing it all into one long chapter, and even that was a departure for me. It works in a way that only books can. And lets not even talk about the way Treebeard comes to his decision to attack Isengard... :rolleyes: There may be a small, small light at the end of the tunnel, and that light is the EE DVD. But PJ will have to really fight hard to convince me this thread has any worth, and frankly I don't see the point. I'd sooner have him cut the whole thing out. It just doesn't seem to add anything to the tale.

Osgiliath. I'll talk about Faramir in a second, but here I am just talking about Osgiliath itself. To me this felt a little pointless. Again, this is the type of scene that might work if it is finished well in RotK. But for now it just doesn't feel right. Maybe this is the editing, who knows... one explanation I can muster is that PJ didn't want the switch from Helm's Deep to Frodo to be that radical, and as such set Frodo in a setting of war. But this theory crumbles when you look at Treebeards scenes, which are sloooowwww.... and yet are inter-cut with Helms Deep (not effectively, I'd argue). I'm not a big fan of the new ring-wraiths, and maybe that is it. I'll have to see this scene again to get my thoughts straight, but my first reaction here is negative. The dialogue by Sam is good, but the setting feels wrong to me. And one thing I didn't understand was how exactly Frodo and Sam left Osgiliath safely. I think there was a scene in the sewers that was cut, where Faramir wished them farewell. This scene is missing, and you can feel it. Faramirs decision to let them go feels a little forced. Instead of feeling as though Faramir has grown in his wisdom (as was the writers intention in changing his charachter), to me it feels more as though they had gotten into a jam and had to pull a quick manuever to get out of it. I doubt this was thier original intention, and again we return to the need of an EE.

[Talimon]

My post was too long, had to split it in half ;). On we go:

Split:

There are a few bits that I am still struggling with, and not sure whether I like or not. One is Theodens "transformation". I went back and read the book, and to be frank with you even on the page there is little explanation that makes sense of it. Yes, Gandalf helps cure him, but even in the book it feels a little quick. What helps balance this out is that Theoden doesn't regain his full strength immediately. It is a process. We don't get this element in the film. We have old Theoden, and young Theoden. I found this odd, since Bernard Hill himself said that this "regaining his strength" element was being played on in the film. Again we return to the need of an EE.

Gandalfs return. Gandalfs role is so minor in this film that it is hard to make sense of this. He shows up in the first 30 minutes, dissappears, and comes back at the end to say a line of dialogue (and defeat an army of Uruks, in all fairness). I remember PJ saying that Theoden and Gandalf had some sort of arguement that the pick-ups were meant to resolve. So I can only assume Gandalf had more scenes. The EE strikes again.

Saruman and Wormtongue. Saruman must of had one line of dialogue in the whole scene. Well, wait... he had that one speech... but you get the point. He is personified by his armies. Grima is played well, but I just wanted more of him.

Faramir. For the most part I am happy with how this worked out. Faramir has a very strong quality to him that the actor brings, and I liked this. But it is obvious much was cut. I won't go and get all my sources now, but I know of at least half a dozen scenes with Faramir from TTT that were shot but not included. Most notable of these is one where Faramir tells Frodo and Sam of the glory of Gondor, or how it would be. It is a shame the EE is nearly a year away.

Gimili. There is a fine line between having comic relief and between completely relegating a charachter to one role. I can't think of a single scene of Gimili's which was not meant to get a comic reaction. There may have been one, but the audience was already so used to laughing at his scenes that they probably laughed anyway. I had no problem with Merry and Pippin in FotR serving the occasional comic role. The key here is that thier comic parts were mixed with more serious ones. Gimili, at least in terms of audience reaction, is very one-dimensional. This didn't bother me prior to Helm's Deep, but in the heat of battle it occasionally got on my nerves.

Wargs and Aragorn falling. This actually worked for me. I can't really explain why, and I'll have to view it again, but it did something that I felt worked. The actual fight went on 20 seconds too long I think, but Aragorns actual fall worked well.

Elves at Helms Deep. I'm not really sure about this. I guess the point is that it didn't really need to be there, but didn't hurt too much either. Maybe it was just me but I didn't feel any hint of emotion when Haldir died. The music was beautiful, though.


Nit Picks:

I only have a single serious one: the "suicide bomber" orc at Helms Deep. I thought PJ was preaching about Tolkien not supporting allegory, and how the movies aren't about current events. Well, how exactly does having an orc sacrifice himself to blow up the wall at Helm's Deep help this? It's not from the books, if I remember correctly. This may have been shot prior to September 11, but considering there were pick ups I'm sure some alternative could have been devised. It just felt like it was really done in bad taste.

Hand in hand with this, I might mention the middle-eastern design of the Haradrim. This is more excusable if you consider Tolkiens descriptions, but I felt it was a little too blatant in the film.

Also, Gimili blowing the horn in Helms Deep? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the horn was supposedly blown by the spirit of Helm, if I understand correctly. I'm not asking the film-makers to go into the detail of the Appendices, but why show Gimili blowing it? It could just as easily have worked without us seeing the blower. Not a big complaint, really.


Conclusion:

It is hard for me to draw conclusions yet, to be honest with you. My instinct tells me this much: I enjoyed FotR much more (especially the EE). It just felt more complete, much more well rounded. TTT is a minute longer and yet feels an hour shorter. It feels like it ought to be beefed up by an extra half hour, and then extended after it ends to tell another half hour of the tale. The beefing up will no doubt take place with the EE DVD. As for the extension, I can only hope RotK does a superb job in ending many of the unfinished threads. I have a feeling that, as far comparisons go, TTT will be considered the weakest film in this trilogy. Which, all things considered, still doesn't say much. Writing about the film, I already want to go see it again, for Gollum alone, and Helm's Deep. But it is important to keep in mind the fact that the tale is not yet over. A lot of the enjoyment that might come from TTT is inevitably lost without having RotK to follow it up. And I'll finish by saying that this film will make use of an EE much more then FotR did. As for the Ents, I am afraid I won't get over that.


My innitial reaction to FotR was negative, and yet it turned out to be one of my all time favorite movies. I'm sure repeat viewings will help clear my mind regarding TTT. Perhaps not positively, as was the case with repeat viewings on Episode I (Star Wars). But it's hard to judge the film based on one viewing alone, especially when that viewing is clouded by hype and inevitable expectations.

[FallenOne]

I agree about the "Ents"... I didn't like them... the movie would have benn better off without them... but I did like the movie...

...back to sleep...

Zzzz...

:eek:

Zzzz...

[Elennainie]

Wow, such long reviews! 3:50 in the morning here and needing sleep...so this'll be short. I loved how there seemed to be more direct quotes from the book. I loved that the theme of needing to struggle against evil despite the fact that you are almost certain to lose was given a lot of focus. Favorite parts: everybody clapped when Legolas jumped on the horse way cool elvish style! Legolas on the skateboard did not go over so well. (it stunk). Gollum was great - he was even cute and easy to sympathise with, while still retaining the bad side. Aragorn's horse getting down on his knees to rouse him and carry him. Great humor from Gimli and Gollum. Coolest helmets on the Riders of Rohan. Eowyn's beautiful white dress when Aragorn rides up. Yessss!!! when Haldir and his elves show up at Helm's Deep! :D Overall, I don't think it was as strong as the first movie. Too much Treebeard walking around, just walking, still walking...stiiillllll walking. (too bad b/c I love Treebeard in the book) Elijah did a great job with Frodo as he is coming more under the Ring's sway. Beautiful scenery - stunning mountains. O.K. that's it for a quick, tired, first impression. :)

[Winch]

Jeez I think I'll wait till I can read all these reviews before I go in to detail but bottom line is I loved it. Maybe seeing it at midnight with the kind of crowd you get at that time made it better. There was a lot of cheering and applauding. We all seemed to like Legolas on a skateboard very much.
The movie is not near as intense as FoTR. A lot more humor. Orcs don't come off near so frightening. Not nearly as grandios but then we're seeing Edoras, Helms Deep and Fangorn compared to Rivendell and Lothlorien so that's to be expected.

Well got to get some sleep before the 3:15 pm show.

[DGoeij]

I'm somewhat uncertain if I read the same book as mr. Jackson. It must be, because it looked as great as I expected after FotR, Middle-Earth lives and breathes, an achievement I give PJ much credit for. But what is going on there?

Frodo, Sam and Gollum:
If Gollum was a digital character, then somebody praise microsoft! He had a real face, he could spit, scowl, cry and laugh without giving me the feeling I was looking at an android and even moved like a living being. His split personality was done great IMHO. Because of the late hour, it became almost hilarious, but still sad at the same time, thumbs up! I didn't like Frodo getting so worked up about him against Sam, but overall it felt right. The Oliphaunt was rushed and became insignificant, I think they could have saved time by not filming it at all, and work out the ambush a little better, and I missed Sams line about the fallen Easterling. Whatever happened to Faramir I don't know, but they missed. Yes, there was an actor playing a man from Gondor, calling himself Faramir, brother of Boromir, and that's it. He doesn't grab the Ring, yes, he sends it to his father, what?, no he let's the Hobbits go, and sure, take the green dude with you, great idea! Like Talimon said (but maybe for different reasons), it needs an EE a lot, not the least of all at this point. Why they get dragged all the way to Osgiliath is a mystery to me, but it doesn't work either. Gollums refenrence to "She" and so on, was done neat, I liked again his struggle with his dark side.

Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas:
Their chase of the orcs was nicely done, and the way Aragorn tracked Merry and Pippin at the site of the battle worked out fine. It saved time by avoiding the different orc personalities and this way I didn't miss them too much. The re-appearance of Gandalf was great, and the way they entered the golden hall (no fussing over weapons, but they forgot about Anduril anyway) and all. (even Kung-fu Legolas was acceptable, because of the reluctance of Hama to interfere, nice touch) The exorcism of Saruman went a little over the top IMHO, but it did show Gandalfs powers, now that he became the white. Theoden never grasped me as the old, stern, but friendly king.
The warg-attack was ok, until Aragron went over the cliff. What's the whole idea behind that? I hope Eomer is worked out a little better in RotK, because all he did now was show up from time to time. I don't know about Eowyn, but of course her better parts will be in the RotK. Up until now she was only allowed to guide the women and children as in the true story and her looks towards Aragron were clear enough. I had a nasty feeling when the young lads of Rohan were armed, the little boy with the helmet reminded me of pictures of the Hitler-jugend at the battle of Berlin, but that's very personal ((some images stick into your mind when you're 14). It really did show the desperation of Rohan, but I wonder if it can ever be believable now for the Rohirrim to show up at the battle of the Pelennor with thousands of horse-men.
The Terminator-elves reinforcements looked great, but I would have much easier accepted the Rangers showing up at this point.
The Gimli-the-Dwarf- jokes were numerous, maybe a little too much. During the warg-attack he could have done better, standing firmly on the ground. The top of his helmet sticking out between the waists of all the other defenders is funny, but it gave me a "Disney" feeling.

Merry and Pippin:
The footage of their long journey with the Uruk-hai was short (understandable IMHO,), but the escape was nicely done, changing between their view and the tracking by Aragorn. Treebeard looked like an Ent. Like so many other pictures of Ents, not like my Ent, but they all looked great. Fangorn had the ancient forest appearance it deserved. He mumbled too long about the hobbits being orcs and his overall appearance made him feel much more stupid then the image I have from the true story. I can see why Talimon can consider leaving them out, but I will still burn him at the stake for suggesting it.:D I seriously wonder how it could have been done better (on screen, in the book it's all magnificent). Nice touch about the Ents withstanding the flood, while all the Isengard-mess was washed away. That scene did work out great.

I think I enjoyed the film because of the pictures of Middle-earth and the Battle at Helms Deep, and becasue I like a good movie any day. This one sometimes was a bit rushed and had unclear scenes, so I'm glad I read the true story. If I detach from LotR completely, even the lame jokes are funny inventions. But I don't like to detach from LotR, I happen to love that story.

[Eledhwen]

Frodo and Sam: Frodo's build-up to being taken over by the ring is not subtly done (ie: a slow build-up). Sam lectures Frodo about the ring, but I suppose that's to help non-Tolkien-readers to understand what's going on.

The film is short on pauses (though I would be pushed to say where they could be slotted in and still keep to 3 hours). In the book, Sam and Frodo are resting when they discuss their part in the Great Tale. In the film, it's combined with their onward march.

I agree with previous reviewers - the trip to Osgiliath = totally unnecessary. Film Faramir is much less of a total contrast to Boromir than in the book. Book Faramir (who had sat at the feet of Gandalf) was more convincing.

Elves instead of Ents at Helm's Deep? Loved it!

[Mrylkieb]

Ok, my first movie review. My first forum. First midnite showing of a new release. No pressure. Pardon any faux pas. Four hours of sleep later, and after some mulling...I have some observations. Overall, great film. Great use of the landscape, although I pictured Rohan more like the Midwest US (long waving grasses described in book). I reread the TT section of LOTR right before going to see the movie, as I'm sure many did. The changes therefore were much more apparent this time around. Not as much creative license was utilized in FOTR.

The chase in the beginning was very well done, got the same feeling of sleepless pursuit I felt in the book. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli do seem to inexplicably give up their search after they meet Gandalf again.

After reading the other reviews, I rethought my dislike of the elves showing up at HD. Erkenbrand was a very small character in the book so removing him from the movie makes sense. Thanks for letting me know who Haldir was, I missed that...they could have inserted a few fragments from FOTR as he was falling to reinforce his character...would have helped I think.

I really don't get having Eowyn going to HD though. She led the people of Edoras to Dunharrow in the book. That location shows up in ROTK when Aragorn goes there on his way to the Paths of the Dead...yes?...I assume they changed it to 1. give her a larger part 2. play up the minor repartee between her and Aragorn from the book 3. reinforce Aragorn's conflict with himself. I guess time will tell in the next installment where that's going. And what was the point of him going over the cliff? Seems like the people of HD hardly miss him, since he hadn't shown much leadership up to that point.

I agree that Aragorn's character doesn't seem to develop much; that Gimli, although quite amusing, is diminished somewhat by PJ's creativity; could have done without the skateboard scene...very cool acrobatics in the horse scene though.

The scenes with the Ents gets lost in my opinion. The Entmoot means almost nothing without the buildup describe in the book but missing in the movie. I was looking forward to the interpretation...and left a bit disappointed. The younger Ents didn't really look younger, nor did they really look like different varieties of the trees they were supposed to be. I expected them to be more, I guess, willowy...flexible, like younger trees. Treebeard was done well, though. The destruction of Isengard was done very well, though their fury was a bit misplaced considering the lack of developing scenes. It does seem that a large section of Ent film is missing. I would have enjoyed seeing the living Fangorn forest, appearing at HD, passing over the host of Rohan, etc.

Faramir...I must say I'm disappointed. He was supposed to be the "Thinking" son of Denethor, not interested in war for war's sake but in the lives of men, and a friend of Gandalf. He was not tempted by the Ring like Boromir and was a unexpected, unlooked for friend to Frodo in the midst of his miserable journey to Mordor.

So, while I think the interpretations of the landscape and locations (ie: Isengard, Edoras and HD) was pretty much right on, while I overall enjoyed the movie, will doubtless see it many more times, and probably change my opinions as I read more reviews, I felt a tiny bit let down as I left the theater. Thus ends my first uneducated movie review.

[Mrylkieb]

Oh, yeah, one more thing. Loved Gollum/Smeagol. I always thought he seemed schitzophrenic in the book they way he argued with himself. The computer animation was fantastic, hard to remember he wasn't real. I also loved his oblique reference to "She" at the end. Even though the Shelob scene actually takes place in TT, I think saving it for ROTK was a great cliffhanger. That's it, that's all.

[DGoeij]

Welcome to the Forum Mrylkieb! (I honestly wonder what your name means).

For an uneducated review, you at least explained things better then I did. And I even had two more hours of sleep.:) I hope we'll be hearing from you some more as you find your way through the Forum. Feel free to ask any questions, since this happens to be your first forum. My PM (stands for personal message) box is open.

[Beruthiel]

I saw TTT at a midnight showing last night and can only say this: I am sorely disappointed. After the magic of FotR, I was expecting a film of the same caliber, as true to the books and spirit of Middle Earth. That was not, in my opinion, what Peter Jackson delivered. In some cases, the characters and/or plot devices were altered so much that the tale itself was changed, which is sacrilege. :mad:

There is a major difference between expanding a role or adding to a storyline, and altering an existing character or plot. As an example, in FotR, I had no problem with PJ’s expansion of Arwen’s character. I understood why she was made more prominent in the tale, and it worked for me. Perhaps what made it work is that Professor T gave us so little of Arwen in the story, so there was not much to be contradicted by building on her persona.

However, I take strong exception to what PJ did to Faramir’s character. He took a good and noble character, whose persona had been well-developed by Professor T, and transformed him into a grasping and insensitive lout. “Not if I found it on the road would I take it” becomes, “The Ring is going to Gondor…tell my father that Faramir sends him a mighty gift.” He basically becomes Boromir without any of Boromir’s redeeming qualities; instead of being a friend found unlooked-for, he becomes a captor. In my opinion, this was the most unforgivable offense that PJ made in this film.

Theoden is another who suffers from PJ’s persona alterations. He is not the warm and kindly King of Rohan of the books. The moment at Theodred’s grave was well done, but otherwise, Theoden came across as cold and remote. He seemed more akin to the character of Denethor to me than the Theoden of the books.

And what the he** was up with Aragorn going over the cliff? Totally ridiculous and even more ridiculous that Legolas and Gimli would just leave him the way they did. I initially was happy with the way the dream sequences were going, and then they twisted back on themselves and became ridiculous. Elrond’s character seems to have a serious attitude problem and a dislike for Aragorn. And I was completely put off by the scene where Aragorn essentially breaks off his relationship with Arwen. Completely and patently a PJ invention, completely at odds with the books and a bad, bad decision by PJ.

Gimli seems to have become the comic relief for the film. Ugh. :(

There were parts of the movie that I loved, most notably Gandalf’s battle with the Balrog. The Black Gate looked spectacular, as did Edoras. Gollum/Smeagol looked 100% convincing, and in my opinion was the most developed character in the movie. The winged Nazgul worked for me, except for the scene where Frodo is basically standing there offering the Ring to one of them. :confused: And obviously Elrond and Galadriel can communicate telephatically across hundreds of miles. Maybe something to do with their rings? It's not explained at all.

The Ents looked great; unfortunately, they came across as dull-witted, which is assuredly not how they were portrayed in the books. A creature as wise as Treebeard should not have been confounded by Pippin’s “logic”.

Perhaps the film will grow on me with time. Perhaps the EE will exonerate PJ from the sins he committed here, although I doubt it. All I know is that a year ago, I was blown away by a magical, wonderful movie that captured the heart and soul of Tolkien’s work, but this year I feel cheated and betrayed by a warped vision of Middle Earth. Yes, it looked like Middle Earth. It sounded like Middle Earth. But I'm not sure it was Middle Earth.

[Mrylkieb]

Here I go again...quickly becoming addicted. But as I read more reviews, more stuff comes to mind.

In reference to Elrond appearing hard/unfeeling. I agree this is a slight departure from the book. Although the Elves are very Vulcan-like in the book, erudite if you will, the movie makes Elrond appear too against Aragorn. He did not approve of his relationship with Arwen, that is true. Basically a father's belief that no one is good enough for his little girl theme. He felt Aragorn needed to prove himself worthy of Arwen. A feeling Aragorn shared, hence his departure from Rivendell in the first place. Only Arwen seemed to feel this was unnecessary. All this is missing in the movie, or undeveloped. There is no way to know that Aragorn is actually quite ancient by the time of the WOTR, having spent most of his middle years with the Dunedain.

And what is this about Arwen departing to the Grey Havens? I have no recollection of this from any of the books. She lives out her long years on Middle-Earth while Elrond departs after the WOTR. Perhaps the next installment will include her changing her mind somehow?

I also agree with the tampering of Theoden. He does appear to be much like Denethor, a character we haven't even met yet.

I thought the winged Nazgul, while well done, looked too dragon-like. They were supposed to be twisted reincarnations of the stolen horses of Rohan.

[Elennainie]

One more thing - seeing Gandalf's "death" scene replayed so early at the beginning of the TT, almost exactly how it was in the first movie, was awful. In the first movie, it is a poignant scene, full of sadness, very emotional. Why was it necessary to show the whole thing again? Surely most who see TT will already have seen FotR. Taking the death scene out of its context and just kind of sticking it in at the beginning was really painful for me to watch. It really ruined a beautiful moment.

Oh, and I totally agree with you guys who thought Faramir was poorly done.

Welcome to the forum, Mrylkieb! :)

[unfortunate_Zee]

OK, here we go...

Faramir: VERY dissapointing
Orcs: not very scary or interesting
Saruman: not enough of him
Sauron's eye: stupid
Fell Beast-type-things: looked like the Pokémon Lugia
Wargs: why?
Aragorn: somewhat interesting but shallow
Arwen:
Galadriel: brilliant, as ever
the battle: a bit dissapointing
Ents: slightly stupid/annoying/boring
Frodo:pretty
Sam:too annoyed at Gollum for my liking
Gollum: surprisingly life-like, funny and disturbing. fantastic!
Gimli: overused as comedy relief
Leglas: fantastic as ever, espec. in the rain
Gandalf: very good but under used
Elrond: not enough feeling
Elven Army: looked more like jaffa
Aragorn falling off cliff: why?
music: fantasic (apart from the track played while the credits roll)
Eowyn: not enough of a dominatrix
Eomer: ugly

overall: too rushed, lacks the emotion of the fellowship. slightly dissapointing :(

any questions?
any thing i've missed out?

[Rúmil]

Ok, I'm just home from the theatre and in 20 minutes I'm seeing it again — so this will have to be quick.

On the whole, I was disappointed. I'll be brief on the parts I liked because I suppose they can speak for themselves.



Parts I liked

1/ Helm's Deep: brilliant. Allthough I would have preferred to have the Elven reinforcement (if it really had to be Elves as opposed to Rangers) led by Elladan and Elrohir. But it doesn't matter. At first view I wasn't really under the imprssion that Théoden was too cold and distant.

2/ Ents. Not bad. Treebeard at little dense, but I wasn't too shocked. Storming of Isengard very nice.

3/ The Haradrim



Now here comes the hate-mail

1/ Gollum. Just had an instinctive dislike for him. I know he is a masterpiece of CG creation though. But the parts involvinh him, Frodo and Sam were way from the book. Quite apart from the fact it was an over-simplification, it came over to me as a gross lack of respect towards Tolkien's work.

2/ Gimli the clumsy bungler. Enough said. I liked the part in wich he defended the Gate though.

3/ The wrag attack. Well that wasn't the worst.

4/ Most importantly, FARAMIR. Now here's a great actor and a terrible director. He looked like a foolhardy insensitive idiot. After ignoring all laws of hospitality, taking Frodo and the Ring prisoner out of greed and ambition, and refusing to heed simple, clear common sense (you'd have thought Gandalf had taught him better), he changed his mind very quickly and for no good reason. This made me very angry indeed.

5/ Anything concerning Arwen and Elrond. This in my view was just to have a little romance to attract a female audience. One thing shocked me: why was she wearing a low-necked, see-through nightgown? Is this perverting Tolkien's work to a shabby-pseudo-love story with an insensitive and insecure Aragorn or what ?
Sorry if I'm getting a little upset.

6/ Sauron is a big flamy eyeball. Why?

7/ Théoden's healing was a difficult challenge. Too difficult, itr seems. If you were one of the Rohirrim, how would you feel if this guy stormed in, and with barely a word of introduction, started performing wizardry on your king? Théoden's healing was supposed to be a much more subtle affair; much less waving of staff involved. Théoden, also, is supposed to be enfeebled, not possessed. Blargh.


So as a whole it was a good movie with some very, very anoying parts. Looking forward to the EE when I can fast-forward the horrible parts and have more good stuff in the movie.

[Húrin Thalion]

Hi and welcome to the forum Zee!

Here is my review: All in all it was awful, three hours of torture, it felt as if they were making fun of the real book. The worst was the tempo, all was carried on in a rush adn nothing of the cool slow scenses of FotR (for example when Bilbo leaves the Ring). It was all wrapped up in some hollywood/disney style action with heroes and clowns. Take only the scene when Theoden throws Gríma down the stairs, that could have fit in any lousy movie. Second worst was all the changes in feeling and story. The elves at Helm's deep was a bizarre, disturbing and unnecessary way to give the action some extra spice.

The actors who played Faramir and Éomer were the worst possible candidates I have ever seen, éomer's largest role until this one was as Julius Caesar in "Xena, the warrior princess". Those were B actors who shouldn't even be statists in TTT. Another thing was that Faramir really intended to take the Ring to Gondor!!! WHY PJ, WHY!? Faramir was in the books portrayed as altogether good and that he should be, he said he wouldn't pick it up if he saw it at the side of the road! Gollum was perverse, kind of a Disney antihero who is just sooooo pathetic. They have kept the dialogue fairly well but the animation and interpretation of his role is sadly enough lousy. The animation was better in FotR, this time he often turned to the camera and talked to it and was simply awful. His role was as both servile and good not as one minded as PJ has interpreted it. Many critics say that Gollum is the most human in LotR but wouldn't you say that Boromir gets that place?

All the scenes with Arwen were pretty good much because Liv Tyler is so good as Arwen but they kind of ruined a little of the mood but let's move on to the ents. I am not going to complain about their looks which was by the way awful IMO. The felling of trees seem to have been unknown to them and when they saw it they simply said: Let's storm Isengard! In the novel Treebeard explicitly sais that this is something that has been growing with the ents for some time, their last march and all. Now it seems like they were some undistinct beings in the woods who suddenly went angry and demolished and ravaged Isengard.

To get to Helms deep: That was the worst part of all, pure torture. I was already almost in tears from how bad the movie was when I got to that part, I had expected more from it. First of all NO ELVES COULD POSSIBLY COME THERE FROM LÓRIEN! Lothlórien was already at war and the orcs of Moria were awake. Moreover why should Haldir be their captain? Also why were they wearing the same helms as the Númenoreans in the battle of the last alliance, the common Númenorean combat helmet? It was really silly to bring the elves there, I just don't see the point? They had sworn no oaths to the Rohirrim nor could they come there. The battle in itself was kind of stupid I think, no real organization and battle, in the book it gives the feeling of a raging battle and a siege at the same time. This felt like all the orcs stood and waited for someone to open the gates or something like that.

Now for Gimli, all the joking was awful and very disrespectful towards the books in my eyes. Especially that seen when he trys a chainmail is so much disney they should have burned the film original for it. None of the jokes about his stature was funny and they were heavyhandedly done without sufficient respect towards the original text. In this Gimli is no funny figure but a brave and stout warrior who does good despite lacking of length (Húrin was shorter in stature than his fathers and son and was the greatest of warriors anyway). Gimli should not have been a laughing stock, especially that throwing part was unnecessary. I have never been more disappointed by a movie and I have more to write but not the time, of the last 45 hours I have slept three so goodnight soon.

Húrin Thalion

[Talierin]

Ugh, I don't even know where to begin... hmm, here's it simply

Good stuff:

Gollum

Bad Stuff:

The rest of the movie (esp. Faramir and the Ents)

[markrob]

Well after reading some of these reviews I am in a world of confusion. It sounds aweful. I do not know if even us true original FAD's can save this one. Obviously I will see it and pass my judgement. It will take all my Fadship to seperate the movie from the book. I do not like the changes I am hearing about especially character feelings and actions. I am so scared I might have to agree with Thorin which disturbs me. But alas, I will see it soon and decide if my life will be ruined by it. But that seems very doubtful.

Oh woe is me, I might have some extreme purist thoughts in my head after all. :rolleyes: But dont get exicited yet Thorin, let me see it first.

[Niniel]

Here's my review! I've seen it 3 hours ago so I've had time to think it over.
The screen time allotted to Sam & Frodo was a bit short in comparison to there rest. I guess about one/third of the film was about them and it should have been equally divided. I thought Frodo’s deterioration was too quick; he already looked like he had no will of his own left and Sam had to make all his decisions. In the book this happened only when they had entered Moria. All Elijah Wood did was stare around desperately with those great blue eyes of his (not that it’s a problem watching Elijah’s eyes or anything). Sean Astin was great.
Gollum was very well done; he looked very realistic. The problem was that he was too positively cute; people were laughing about him when he debated between his good and bad self. He looked an awful lot like Yoda sometimes. This made it almost impossible to believe that he would actually betray Frodo & Sam. I never trusted the book-Gollum, but now I really liked him and would to have him as a pet ;).
I liked the comparison between Frodo and Gollum; in the book it never was very clear that Frodo really wanted to destroy the Ring at least partly because he could see what he would become if he disn't. I guess that's why they gave Gollum big blue eyes too.
Faramir was weird; I understand that the book-Faramir was a bit too decent, but it looked as if they didn’t know what to make him do otherwise. It was especially unclear why he decided to let Frodo & Sam go; was it Sam’s speech about Boromir or what he saw between Frodo and the Nazgul?
Merry and Pippin had far too little screen time, but I liked the fact that they were no longer portrayed as fools. Pippin’s idea of showing Treebeard what happened at Isengard was really smart. The Ents were nice, but I don’t understand why they could not decide for themselves that they had to destroy Isengard.
Gandalf's fight with the Balrog was great, pity there were no Valar involved. Also a shame that he was on screen so little after that, he's on about ten minutes I guess.
My greatest objection about the film was that the screen time for Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli was too long compared to the rest. Apparently PJ wanted to make an action movie, but I don’t like that fact that he made the action the most important part. After all, Helm’s Deep only takes up in chapter in the book. I liked the battle itself, it was really cool to watch, but it was too much. Especially the attention paid to the poor frightened people of Rohan got annoying; when they had shown like five times that war really isn’t a good thing people started talking and asking to get on with it.
Aragorn was good; unfortunately he did not really claim his kingship in so many words, but he showed by his actions that he is a worthy king. The Warg attack was a bit useless, but I was moved when Aragorn fell off the cliff. One thing that I was wondering about was that in the book Aragorn never got wounded during all his battles, but now he did and it made his character stronger. By the way, did anyone notice that the wound on his arm had an apparent continuity mistake? When he was lying on the river bank it was on his left arm and later on his right. Or was he wounded on both arms?
Legolas was good! I liked the development of the friendship between him and Aragorn; the friendship between Legolas and Gimli was not so clear. It was stupid that they made Gimli look like a clown at some point; luckily he had some great battle action too (like how he put Gríma under, that was nice).
It was a shame they didn’t show more of Éomer; he was on screen about five minutes in total while that was a lot more in the book. It was too short to form a judgment on him but his armour was cool. Éowyn was really good, it was nice how she had a total crush on Aragorn (I have been in love with someone I couldn’t get myself and I really acted like that). They could have shown a bit more of her will to fight but I guess we’ll see more of that in ROTK. Théoden was okay; the exorcism by Gandalf was overdone; I never thought Saruman had actually taken possession of Théoden and I don’t think Tolkien meant that. I suppose it was sone to show Gandalf's new powers, since he has no time to show them anywhere else.
The additions with Elrond and Arwen were too long; I understand they wanted to show more of Arwen and Aragorn but it really dragged on. The part where she left Rivendell was weird; where did she go? It was also confusing because all the Elves then wore the same cloaks as the Elves of Haldir, but they were not the same Elves.
All in all I have some strong points of criticism on TTT; especially the editing was weird. As I said, some parts of the book got too much attention and some too little. It all looked a bit rushed, especially the first half hour was top-speed, so that it was hard to follow. Sometimes they had only one sentence from the book in each scene, so that it looked like they had taken a random quote from the book and put them in a random place in the scene. I don’t agree with people saying that TTT is better than FOTR because of these serious drawbacks, but after all I really enjoyed watching it. As long as you don’t think about the book all the time while watching it, it’s a really good film.

[triple3]

I really need to see it again because I was ****ed off about the FoTR the first time around and then grew to love it. When I take the camparisons from the book out off my head, I think it will be a good movie.

The 3 things that I really didn't like
1) Depth of the characters , especially Aragorn. He's the king of men for crying out loud. He needed more development.

2) The disrespect of Gimli. He's a friggin warrior and hero. I needed no comedy relief from him.

3) The fact that they made the ents seem dumb. Treebeard is the oldest thing in middle earth. WTF !

Otherwise, I except the movie as a movie and not the book on screen.

One last thing. For the people who love the books the scenes were broken up completely differently then the chapters so it was somewhat aggrevating.

Gollums was amazing !

Anyways- I will save final remarks after another viewing

[Athelas]

I really missed the point of the over the cliff with Aragorn scene. It seems a lot just for the sake of a flashback. Why is Elrond being such a d*ck? He RAISED Aragorn like his own son. He seems two faced and petty. It seems more like possessiveness of Arwen than real love and concern.

I think it really takes a mental somersault to get emotionally behind the way in which Elves react to death. We are used to death as it is just as common as birth; but imagine what physical death means to an elf. Arwen's precognition of Aragorn's tomb struck me more than any other scene.

Haldir at Helm's deep was noble, but makes no sense. First of all, he is a Lorien Elf, so why is he leading Rivendell Elves? Second, how did they get there?

Hated what they did to Faramir. Gollum was amazing. BTW, how the hell would Sam know HOW BOROMIR DIED? I thought Aragorn's little tif with Legolas was a waste. Theoden looked like Denethor. In fact, Saruman using a Palantir to control him echoes that idea. Did Saruman have to stand there with his hand like that 24/7? He'd develop carpal tunnel syndrom or in this case maybe goblin tunnel syndrome. As with nuclear Galadriel, a decent actor like him could have pulled off the transformation without all of the effects, and I'm ****ed because it takes that away from the actor.

The Balrog fight just kicked Maiar ass. But they went from a lake at the Khazad-Dum to a mountaintop. I would like to have seen Gwaihir pick up Gandalf, and I missed the line:

“A burden you have been,” he answered, “but not so now. Light as a swan’s feather in my claw you are. The sun shines through you. Indeed, I do not think you need me anymore: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.”~

I'm glad they gave Eowyn her lines about the "cage." Miranda was great.
Brad Douriff was perfect.

I missed the Ent's marching song, but the Ents were cool.

[sweetpea]

I just saw TTT and at first was very upset, drove home angry!
Theoden - wasn't friendly like I expected(wanted)
Ents - Treebeard was done well but PJ didn't put enough thought into how they worked up to attack Isengard.
Faramir - he was a lot worse than Boromir greedy grasping and sly He should have been portrayed more like he was in the book (if he is going to be someone who Eowyn will fall for????).
How many riders of Rohain are there now? Didn't look like Eomer showed up with more than 200.
Not enough explaining from Gandalf on why they(he, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) weren't going after Pippin and Merry. If you read the book you know but some viewers haven't read the books.
Didn't like PJ putting in the possiblity of Aragorn and Arwen not being together. Agree with one review that Aragorn gathered his determination and strength from her belief in him and their love.
And Elrond seemed to dislike Aragorn and determined to drive a wedge between Arwen and him.
Gollum done well, Frodo did well showing how ring will turn bearer against even best of friends, Sam as always GREAT!
I will see it again to catch a few things I missed. The film messed up twice once during Gollums interrogation by Faramir and another in Gondor. Audience was getting upset. I think will probably come to like it better once I see it a few more times. Legolas on skateboard I thought was cool. And the humor with Gimli made me like him a lot more than I did in FOTR.

[Talimon]

Ok, I'm just home from the theatre and in 20 minutes I'm seeing it again — so this will have to be quick.

On the whole, I was disappointed.

Brilliance!!! Not only were you dissapointed, but you are actually going to see it again, only 20 minutes after coming home from seeing it. ;)

I saw it again today, and I to have revise some of my comments. Osgiliath worked better for me this time, much better. Also, Frodo does not offer the ring-wraith the ring: he is about to put it on. That is what Sam is stopping him from doing. Frodos look was perfect when he was demented by it.

I also really liked the ending this time around. Sams speech really worked for me, and Faramirs decision didn't feel as forced. I still want this to be expanded in the EE, but I can live with it.

I am still no big fan of the ents, but they didn't bother me as much. And the shot with Gandalf leading Eomers riders got me shaking this time. It is absolutely mythic, and Gandalfs war-cry sent shivers down my back.

I think it is a compliment to say that TTT feels shorter then FotR. There are moments in FotR where I feel that things should really speed up. The stakes keep getting higher in FotR, but they don't reach a very big climax. TTT climaxes much more effectively, without blowing all the pressure... that is to say, it leaves the ultimate climax for RotK. And with the stakes this high, that will be a great climax indeed. TTT also covers a lot more land, something I personaly appreciated. It has smoother transition shots, which made things much easier for me personally. There are other moments I absolutely love... Theoden reciting the poem... The people of Rohan hearing the Orcs stomping.... The horns and screams outside when Saruman shows Grima his army... and the tear that rolls down Grimas cheek at the sight. A lot of folks are complaining about Theodens transformation, but I actually liked it a lot. Does it make more sense that he'd go out and breathe some air and then be able to ride into battle the very next day? Both scenarios are unlikely, and seeing as how this is PJ's interpretation I found his solution to this problem very effective.

Oh, I nearly forgot. The look of the Elves leaving Rivendell, holding the lamps up in the air, was perfect. The music was beautiful.

My favorite moment in the film right now is when Eowyn walks out into the fresh air, and sees the three horses riding up. The violin solo painfully states the Rohan theme, which is such an epic hint of things to come. And then the banner of Rohan flying in the wind, only to land at Aragorns feet. I shiver all over at that :).

[proudfoot]

I'm posting first, before reading anyone else's reviews, not to be influenced by them.

Perhaps my expectations were raised too high by the magnificent reviews TTT has had in the UK press ("Far better than LOTR" etc), but overall I was not happy.

PJ stuck close to the book, its pace and atmosphere in LOTR, and I was beginning to trust his judgement.

Unfortunately Jackson seems to have lost all confidence in the book with TTT and has decided to make a Hollywood Action Epic.

The first half hour of the film was a confused jumble of action sequences, chopped up bits of three different storylines and orchestral effects. And except for fleeting glimpses of the true spirit of Tolkien, what we see throughout the film is "Big Hollywood Action" - Conan 3 meets Starship Troopers.

The book has been needlessly altered into a Wagnerian cliche.

Perhaps this is too harsh: There are good points in the film. I shall list the best:

Gollum/Smeagol - Excellently realised. Genuine pathos and humour.
The Nazgul - Even better than one imagined them.
The Final battle scenes at Helm's Deep are truly epic and moving.
Frodo - superbly acted
Aragorn, Gimli and Gandalf - ditto
Legolas' heroics.

Bad Points:

Loss of Magic - The magic of the original has gone. This seemed a different world to LOTR. The history, the atmosphere, the culture, were not seamlessly woven into the storyline.

Removal of the Light Elements - The film has been darkened into a Gotterdammerung of unrelieved slaughter and despair. The passages of talk, or enjoyment of life of "small events" have been cut out ruthlessly and replaced by extended battle scenes, or ham-fisted interpolations.

Unnecessary Additions - Aragorn and Arwen, perhaps we needed a reminder of this, but did we need the invented scenes about leaving Middle Earth? Did we need Galadriel appearing mid-film for a long narrative to camera about how everything is doomed? Did we need the side-story of the two children of the Mark and their village?

Merry and Pippin - Ruthlessly cut. Two of my favourite characters, and virtually cut out of the film as far as character development goes.

King Theoden - Why the "exorcism"? And Grima Wormtongue was handled badly - so that he turned into a bad melodrama villain, lusting after Eowyn.

Sam - totally transformed from a likeable supportive character into a bullying Fascist. Why?



So. Negative overall on The Two Towers. PJ has literally lost the plot. Can he salvage something for DVD?

[gate7ole]

My review in only a couple of sentences.

PJ must be CRUSIFIED for this film! He betrayed Tolkien's spirit. EVERY change in the plot was AWFUL serving only one purpose: to make the film more spectacular and easy-going.
Greatly disappointed!

[Mrylkieb]

I agree, replaying Gandalf falling into the pit was unnecessary and somehow trivialized an emotional scene from FotR. I think they could have started the film with Gandalf battling the Balrog as they fell. Most people in the theater would have seen the first film and made the connection quickly. I thought the scene change to Frodo was great tho'.

I have to get to the theater to see it again obviously, so my thoughts may change. Or maybe I need to just let it go and just enjoy the first half decent interpretation of my favorite piece of literature.

[mandy_pal]

the movie was GREAT!!!x100000000000000000000000000.....but it wasn't as good as the fellowship. that said, this movie still kicked ass. i luvvvvvvvvvvvvvvved the battle at helm's deep (especially when legolas slid down on a shield), the ents totally kicked ass (everyone in the cinema was cheering when they destroyed orthanc) and gollum was great as well. I really felt sorry for him in the movie which i wasn't able to in the book. It wasn't as dark as i expected, which was good, and parts fitted together better than i had hoped. Lots of my worries beforehand was uneccesary...the arwen/aragorn story wasn't THAT bad and it really gave me a new perspective on arwen's feelings, etc. eowyn was great, eomer was great, king theoden was great, wormtongue was great, need i say more? the changes made to Faramir wasn't unneccessary as i had thought it was before the movie, it made the brothers more alike. In the book it always seemed that Boromir was the villain while Faramir the hero. I never really thought of them as brothers cos in my mind they were so different. Faramir's resistance to the ring seemed too easy for me. But on seeing the movie, i finally was able to see how they relate, how they are similar, how they had both struggled. But the difference lies in the choices they made (i think someone had already mentioned this). I had tears in my eyes when he let frodo go as it meant death for him.

the highlights (not in any particular order):
1) when Gimli couldn't see the army of orcs approaching cos he was too short. it helped to release the tension.
2) sam's speech at the end. it was then that i really started to cry...before i had tears in my eyes (like when arwen was imagining herself at aragorn's funeral; when eowyn found out aragorn's death; and when that elf dude died at the battle and you saw the layers of dead bodies on the ground) but sam's speech really moved me and the tears started to pour down. Sean Astin should get an oscar for best supporting actor...no kidding.
3) the ents destroying orthanc...that rocked
4) legolas's cool stunts...as in getting on that horse, sliding down on the shied, and shooting at the rope which made the ladder fall down. At each of these events the whole audience clapped. I'm not a legolas nor orlando bloom fan, but you have to admit, that was way cool.
5) aragorn pushing the door open...wow!
6) gollum...he rocked. he looked so real it was unnerving
6) last but not least...HELM'S DEEP!!! THE BEST BATTLE IN THE WHOLE WORLD...TALK ABOUT MASSIVE!

the lows (not in any particular order):
1) the start...i think that's the worst part of the film...you are thrown into it too quickly. i think it would have been better to start with aragorn and them...
2) that's about it... i can't think of anything else that was really dissapointing...

overall it was a GREAT GREAT GREAT movie, but it wasn't as good as the fellowship because there was three storylines instead of one and it didn't have as much emotional stuff as the fotr. Also it was darker. Eg. No rivendell, no lothlorien...etc. They were all alone. anyways, i would suggest it to everyone...unless you happen to be those that gets easily annoyed/mad at tiny details such as whether a balrog has wings or not, or if you are unacceptable to any change. Remember, this iss the movie, it's not the book. If you want it to be exactly like the book, then you should read the book instead. It is meant to entertain...so relax and enjoy yourselves! Cheers!

[Gimli the Dwarf]

Well, I guess I'll post my review as my first post here.:)

I saw The Two Towers first thing this morning and I enjoyed the film thoroughly. A few of the changes made to the film in comparison to the book worried me a bit at first, but overall they didn't really bother me at all. You just have to realize that literature and film are two very different mediums.

As for the film in general though:

Frodo, Sam, and Gollum: I enjoyed the storyline here. It was pretty spot on to the book as best I recall up until their meeting with Faramir. Faramir came off a little colder to me than he seems in the book, but by the end of the film the character feels right. Gollum was great. Really a great transition from page to screen in my opinion.

Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas: I thought they did a good job with this part of the story. I will say I don't know where the concept for the Warg scene came from, but I did enjoy it; it was fun.:)

Firstly, to Gimli. Gimli is of course my favorite character, and I found his character a bit lack-luster in the orginal cut of Fellowship, but found the additions in the EE helped to shape him out a bit better. In TTT, I have to admit I did enjoy him. I could've done without the comic relief; it annoys me that PJ thinks he has to make the Dwarf the comic relief for some reason, but I do think PJ, PB, and FW got the message across that Gimli is not one to be trifled with, and his "bring it on" spirit from the books is certainly displayed more than once. Overall, I was quite pleased with him I have to admit.

I was fine with Aragorn. I agree with everyone here in the sense that I really see no need to deviate Aragorn's character development from the book, but I'll wait until RotK before judging too harshly. I do think PJ tried to establish Aragorn's ability as a leader by having him taking up the slack whenever Theoden was too hesitent or too anxious. My only problem with this is I felt it somewhat hurt Theoden's character of a good leader. The love story/triangle: I don't have a problem with it, mainly because this is a film, and that's just how film works these days. You have to have a love story in a movie like this anymore, and I think PJ and company have done a good job of putting one in without making it too prominent.

Legolas: Not really too much to say. It appears they're trying to establish a friendship between he and Aragorn, which I liked. His fighting scenes once again seemed to get the biggest "oohs" and "ahhs" from the crowd. I think PJ has done this to show the gracefulness of the Elves, and it's enjoyable. He has quite a few more lines in this one as well, many of which were both signifigant and touching ("Your friends are with you Aragorn," for example).

Merry, Pippin, and Treebeard: I though PJ et, al. did a good job with this storyline. They did a great job of making me want to jump into the screen and shake Treebeard and his pals and say "There's a war going on! Get on with it already!" He really captured the slow paced action-taking of the Ents in my opinion. Some may find this boring, but I loved it. Merry and Pippin didn't really develop until the latter part of the film, but they ultimatley did, and they didn't play comic relief at all. The scenes with the Orcs and the Urak-hai were good and though they really didn't establish the Mordor vs. Isengard I felt at least an argument was there. It was a bit less than what I had expected it would be from what I had heard, but nonetheless well-done I thought.

Overall: A few things worried me before I actually saw the film. The appearance of the Elves at Helm's Deep could've gone awry, but I liked it quite a bit. It just made sense for them to be there. Gimli as comic relief did bother me, but breaking an Orcs neck with his bare hands, and his willingness to take on both a charging Warg and hundreds of rampaging Urak-hai made up for it for me.

Arwen's scenes were fine by my and again that's just the name of the game when it comes to film. I didn't feel they were overplayed at all and helped round out the love story established in Fellowship.

Anywho, I'm all written-out for now. I really had a great time though and plan to see it quite a few more times at the theatre. If I had to make a comparison to TFotR right now, I'd say I liked it just as much. They're two very different movies though, and yet their two parts of one grand story, so it's difficult to compare them. Really great though.

Quick side note: My favorite scene, if I had to pick one, would be where Gimli and Aragorn sneak out to take on the charging Urak-hai. It wasn't straight out of the book, but it's one of my favorite scenes in the book (Gimli's basically a hero really) and it was close enough in the film for me to instantly hit the edge of my seat in anticipation in the theatre when it came up.

[aabnab]

I just saw the TTT, and I have to say that I loved it. I've stolen someone else's list from earlier, and I am going to fill in my own critique on each of the points.

Faramir: Okay, here is going to be where I disagree with every other sentient life form in the galaxy. I liked the fact that Faramir was not initially into letting Frodo just walk awy. To have his character be just an anti-Boromir would have been a bit much for the screen. Further, as we find out at the end of his time with Frodo, he is going against the orders of his father by letting them leave. The mighty gift line is a little far out of character, but ultimately I like the fact that it was FARAMIR'S CHOICES AND NOT HIS INCLINATION that led him to set Frodo free. He went against duty to Family and Country to make that decision, and I think he needed to understand the gravity of the ring to make that choice.

Orcs: Hasn't that always been the case with orcs that they were not scary enough? It always seems like no matter the number, they can always be defeated by 10 guys with famous swords. I think they are okay in the movie.

Saruman: I liked having less of him in the film. Less bad guy dialog makes for a scarrier ride.

Sauron's eye: Sauron's eye remains one of my favorite characters in the film. It is lidless, sleepless, and unrelenting. Thank goodness PJ had not dared to try to show us a modern Sauron body.

Fell Beast-type-things: Don't know which creature the person who's list I stole meant.

Wargs: No real opinion. I did think they look to Heyena like and not Wolfish enough, but hey... that's nothing

Aragorn: I'll agree that there was no real further development here, but part of that to me seemed like it was the lack of his final scenes from the the book. Those were what really advanced his character in the TT book. But, TRotK is so much shorter than the other two that I can see why they decided to leave out the end of both story lines in the TT.

Arwen: Liv Tyler is pretty. I liked the fact that she had to come to terms with what being mortal meant, and that she was still willing to love Aragorn (The LOTR movies can'r have the appendices that the books do... so they have to make up new scenes and put them into some sort of chronilogical mix... the making up a battle with wargs seems like as good a place as any to mention the mortality thing).

Galadriel: brilliant, as ever

the battle: The battle was long. PJ captures some of the basic spirit. can't think of any way for him to have done it that would have been better.

Frodo: I like that he is getting dragged down by the ring really hard now. I'm glad they saved the battle with Shelob until the next movie. I liked his tone with both Gollum and Sam. Well done!

Sam: Protective, funny. His hatred of Gollum is perfectly understandable.

Gollum: surprisingly life-like, funny and disturbing. fantastic!

Gimli: overused as comedy relief. One of the great transitions between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings was making Dwarves a believable, noble, stubborn, proud people. PJ has taken a bit of that dignity from the race. But, he sure is fiesty!

Legolas: fantastic as ever, espec. in the rain.

Gandalf: Gandalf is not used enough, but his time better be coming.

Elrond: nothing but feeling.

Elven Army: Interesting choice... making it Haldir (not rangers, not the sons of elrond, which is why I speculate on who is bringing Narsil to the battle). Didn't mind much at all.

Aragorn falling off cliff: See earlier coments under Wargs for why they need to add this device.

music: fantasic (apart from the track played while the credits roll)

Eowyn: I expected to hate her, and instead I really liked her. PJ did a great thing by including Wormtails poisoning of her with words.

Eomer: absent. Could have added much, much more. but, PJ needed something more concrete to come to the rescue of helmes deep than men Gandalf scraped together from the land and a herd of trees.

Theoden: I thought his transformation was dramatic, but understandable to the general audience with the way it was scripted. I liked this actors portrayal. Conservative king.

[Lindir]

And now it's my turn. On the whole I have to say I was disappointed. I loved the first movie and saw it four times in two weeks because I just couldn't stay away. I will most certainly see TTT again as well, but this time I'll watch it again to see if maybe I can bring myself to like it better.

There are many reasons I didn't enjoy it fully. Firstly, I think it was rushed. The scenes were never allowed to develop with a resulting lack of depth. The Warg sequence should have been dropped altogether as it was totally pointless. The saved time could have been distributed on the Three Hunters and Edoras, both of which needed to be fleshed out.

The changes from the book were in most cases really unnecessary and added nothing (more than irritation). I'm mostly ****ed off by the changes in Faramir's character. WHY?! It diminished him totally. And Osgiliath? The movie was action packed enough without this unnecessary addition. Maybe the feeling was that Frodo and Sam needed to see some more action to balance the film. I didn't like it at all.

Treebeard came across as a bit dense and this too is really annoying. The Entmoot's decision not to fight is strange. There was absolutely nothing to be gained by this alteration, since they ended up fighting anyway.

Gimli as comic relief made me angry. The audience around me laughed when they should, I just gritted my teeth. Again a diminishing of a good and strong character.

There were more things I didn't like but I'll leave that for now. Things I did like was Gollum. I think the closing scene worked very well. Maybe he was a bit too sympathetic, but this should resolve itself in the next film.

I also liked Wormtounge. They could have expanded a bit on his role as Théoden king's councillor, but I think he was well played.
The battle scenes worked well. Helm's Deep was exciting (but surfing Legolas sucked) and the battle at Isengard also.

I really think it could have been so much better. I don't think it's necessary o follow the book 100%, but in this case the changes were too many, even though I was prepared. So I'm disappointed, but I didn't hate it.

That's enough for now, but I will have much to say on this subject yet.

[aragil]

Well, looks like I agree with most reviewers about the feel of the movie- personally for me the film felt more rushed than the first, and I absolutely agree with Talimon about the ''doesn't stand alone" bit. I saw the EE FotR last night, and I still felt that the beginning lacked any sense of introduction. I'm trying to imagine what it will be like to watch them back to back- probably a nice transition from Frodo and Sam looking at Mordor to Frodo dreaming about Gandalf. However, having <24 hours between viewings does hurt. I also think that PJ was facing an impossible task trying to weave 3 (call it 4 if you include Arwen) plotlines into a single coherent tale. He made an admirable effort, but I just don't see how it could be successfully done. This is a little disconcerting, because RotK is going to have at least 3 (if not 4) plots intertwined again. Very difficult to do, but perhaps RotK will fare better as the various threads eventually wind together (as opposed to TT where they wind further apart).

I guess my overall review would be as follows: On a scale from one to ten (with Fotr being a 10!) I'd give TT an 8. That's as a film on it's own. If RotK gets another Ten (in my book), then I don't think TT will hurt PJ's overall LotR grade one whit. It's just hard being the middle child.

What I didn't Like:
1)I disagree with Talimon- I liked the Ents, and I didn't think their role needed removal. I do think it could have been done better. Treebeard is a treeherder, after all, and for him to be completely ignorant of Saruman's attrocities seems to show him as not being a very good treeherder. You'd think Gandalf, who had a front-row seat at Orthanc, could have clued him in a bit here. Had they worked the same angle as in the books, with Treebeard being aware and then put over the top by the Hobbits arrival, then I think that the this thread would have worked out better, and could have been done in shorter time. I didn't like how we had to cut away from the other threads to see the Ents still not doing anything. But like I said, this is merely a suggestion on how it would have worked better for me. A little ps here, Tolkien in his letters describes Treebeard as not particularly bright (not one of the "wise", anyway), so I think I disagree with those of you hated his "slow-witted" bits in the film.

2)Aragorn's soliliquoy. Not so much for what it was, but more for what it wasn't. Aragorn in the earlier parts of the movie is completely swept up in the events- no real time for character growth, IMO. When he finds himself isolated from all the other characters, this is a great opportunity for reflection. I think PJ is doing the right thing by having him think about Arwen (especially about what she must mean to him). However, my own preference would have been to take this reflection and a ponderance about what was happening to Rohan and really take a big step towards his becoming King. That would have really made his opening of the doors at Helm's Deep into a goosebump scene. Oh well, it wasn't a total loss, as I think that the Arwen angle was very nice. Btw those Arwen scenes with Elrond were not PJ's invention- they were verbatim out of Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. I thought it was a great way to bring these parts of the Appendices into the movie- although it might hurt Talimon's hope for a bittersweet ending to the series.

3)Faramir's decision to let Frodo go. Just a bit of a miss here for me really. They spent so much time having Faramir take the Hobbits one way, it seemed like they could have put a little more clarity into what makes him let the Hobbits go. All in all I like the idea of having Faramir initially take the Hobbits to Gondor- this explores a rather obscure thread on these very boards: Did Faramir make the right choice? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3446). I think this was a good bit for PJ to put into the movies, he just could have resolved it better.

4)Ugluk's reduced role. Completely personal, and anyone who has seen me posting on either him or the Uruk-hai knows why.

Enough Carping, what did I like enough to give the movie an 8? First off, I think all LotR fans should read the following post by Bjarki: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=202797#post202797
I grade these movies based on two things- how much I liked them as movies, and how much I think they captured the themes of Tolkien. I actually think TT scores better on the latter! I think most of the 'changes' from book to movie actually emphasize the themes which Bjarki expresses in her/his post- those of free-will, redemption, and the necessity of making choices. Many people on these boards complain about how the movies "ruin" JRRT's themes, but very few express what these themes are. I find that Bjarki's three themes resonate most with my reading, and it is quite nice to see these same themes present, emphasized even, in the movies. Enough blabbering.

1)Gollum- outstanding, better beyond any of my wildest expectations. Dare I say it? Yes I dare- falls into the same category as Boromir in FotR: BETTER THAN THE BOOKS! I never empathisized much with Gollum in the books, but that has changed thanks to the movies- he is torn, conflicted, but not irredeemably evil (note the theme from Bjarki's post). This also reflects well on something Tolkien said in his letters- he thought Gollum's near repentance of his evil side while on the stairs of Cirith Ungol to be the saddest part of the whole books. PJ has actually developed that more- kudos. On the down side, I missed his "Don't want fisssh" line (which admittedly wouldn't have fit in well with the tone of this part of the movie), and I didn't really like the voice. Still probably the best part of the movie.

2)Frodo, Sam and the Ring. After FotR I didn't really think they could play up the evil nature of the Ring anymore, but I was wrong. What we saw before was the Ring trying to take hold of individuals- everyone at the Council of Elrond, Galadriel at the Mirror, and of course Boromir. In this film we see what happens when the Ring begins to get a hold of someone- in some scenes Frodo really does seem to be a different Hobbit (to say nothing of Gollum). I was much more impressed with Elijah this time out. I also loved Sam- confronted with the changes in his master and caught up with a guide which he can't trust. I thought Austin played this perfectly.

3)Theoden- who said being a King was easy? Theoden is faced with a no-win situation, and (IMO) is actually getting bad advice from both Gandalf and Aragorn. Yet he continually tries to make the choices which are best for his people- even if that means putting swords in the hands of boys to try and save the women and children. An extremely tough decision, but necessary. Perhaps Aragorn learns something of Kingship from this affair? Also loved his recital of both war songs of Rohan- great stuff from the books, and I like it that Theoden (rather than Aragorn in the books) gets the "where are the horse and the rider" song.

4)Haldir- a great change from the books, IMO. The entire Northern line of the Dunedain is gone in the movies, so like it or not Aragorn is not going to be getting help from that quarter. For what ever reason Aragorn has spent his time with Elves in the movie, not with Men. At Helm's Deep this is finally paying off- Aragorn is getting help from the Elves when he needs it most. And it solves a problem for me in the books- what were all the Rivendell Elves doing during the War of the Rings. This was a refuge for the Elves of Eregion, who were most responsible for the Rings, and for Glorfindel, who was arguably the most powerful Elf combat-wise of the Third Age. Yet they all seemed to drop out of the story right when they were most needed. I guess I could theorize that they were involved in some engagement up North that Tolkien forgot to mention, but I like them better where something important is happening. Also, for those of you who thought Elrond was too bitter in the movies, here is a change of heart. Remember his thoughts from the first movie (and from the book)- he thought that The Last Alliance failed in it's goal due to the weakness of men. Yet here he decides to send his immortal elves to aid men (and in particular Aragorn, heir of Isildur). It seemed a little odd that Haldir led the group, but I thought this made his death scene more poignant. I really did not want to see him die. But that is what was at stake when Elrond sent him, that is the price of war, and that is the consequence of his choice to help humans.

5)Legolas getting on the horse. Pure indulgence here, but Legolas does get a lot of cool shots, and that one was a show-stopper.

[Odo Proudfoot]

I saw it last night, and I liked it OK but with some mixed feelings. I think I will get to like it more after further viewings, and I especially look forward to the Extended Edition because this film needs it even more than the first one.

The photography, scenery, locations, costumes and details are, again, superb. Utterly believable, although I thought Rohan would be more prairie-like and less rugged. Also, after three days or running the three hunters are still high up in the mountains - doesn't feel right to me.

Gollum is very, very well done. Unfortunately I hate his character in the book, and since he stays quite close to the book I don't care too much for him in the film either! There is a lot directly from the book such as his Slinker/Stinker sides, his grovelling for Frodo, his dislike for Sam, the rabbit scene (very well done), his fishing in the forbidden pool etc. The Black Gate is breathtaking and the Oliphaunts are stunning!

Faramir works OK for me up to the point where he points his sword at Frodo and the ring and considers what to do. He is stern, responsible, a captain in war. But the twist that he decides to take Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath puzzles me, I don't see why that is necessary. It happens after the Helms Deep battle and the sight of another fight amongst the ruins was a bit much for me. His final change of mind doesn't come across well, in fact I still hardly understand why he does this. I did like the Flying Nazgul, very eery.

Frodo's struggle with the ring is getting more and more difficult, I thought that was well done. Sam is becoming my favourite character, in fact he is fast becoming top hero, with his determination and stubborn will to make the best of it.

The Pippin and Merry strand is just about all right. The quarrelsome orcs are well portrayed, although the details of their escape are different from the book it works good enough. I thought their relation with Treebeard was less deep than in the book, where there is more chemistry between hobbits and Ents. The Ents are quite well done, but I would have been happy with the Entmoot deciding to go after Isengard rather than the clumsy twist they give it in the film. But I liked the destruction of Isengard, it stays close to the book and convinced me.

The Chase is OK, but the continuous emphasis on Gimli finding it hard to keep up wore off a bit. Their meeting with Eomer and his riders was excellent, with them circling around and coming to a halt with their spears levelled at the three hunters. The dialog stayed pretty close to the book, but it wasn't clear why Eomer would give away two valuable horses just like that. EE material perhaps?

The meeting with Gandalf was well done, and the subsequent arrival at Edoras is just beautiful. Grima is very creepy, but I thought Theoden's makeup before his conversion is way overdone.

The warg attack is fine, excellent monsters. I am at a complete loss with Aragorn's fall over the cliff and subsequent revival. WTF? Seems completely superfluous to me, there should be plenty of opportunity for flashbacks to Arwen without inventing this needless scene. Best forgotten.

The business with Eowyn and Aragorn is by no means as controversial as many people feared before the movie came out. She obviously falls for him, but I thought he responded kindly but still kept his distance. The 'swordfight' scene is no problem at all and serves very nicely to explain Eowyn's character.

I also have no problems with the scene beween Arwen and Elrond, in fact I liked the 'future flashback (?)' to Aragorn lying in state and the mourning Arwen a lot, and it comes straight out of the Appendix. Elrond grieves for losing his daughter and tries to convince her that she is making the wrong choice. Makes a lot of sense to me. I am unsure where we will be going with the scene of Arwen actually leaving with a group of Elves to go to the Grey Havens. I am sure all will become clear... :)

And then Helms Deep. Wow! Very impressive, with a good run up showing the despair of the people of Rohan, and even a moment of doubt from Legolas. Theoden also suffers from mood swings between defiance and despair, understandable in my view. Aragorn grows in his role as leader, and I liked a brief exchange where Theoden complains to Aragorn about Gondor not coming to Rohan's help, and then suddenly realises he is talking to the heir to Gondor's throne! Nice touch.

I loved the scenes in the Caves where the women and children are huddling together and you hear (and feel!) the growing noise of the approaching armies of Saruman. Scary stuff.

The actual fighting is hard, mean, exhaustive, realistic. A few 'comical' moments with Gimli and Legolas did not really work for me but overall don't detract too much. I had no problem with Haldir and the Elves, after all why not? Haldir's death didn't touch me too much, though. I can accept that Erkenbrand's role was taken over by Eomer, otherwise there would have been another minor character to be introcuded, and three hours is already so short! Same for the Huorns, would be nice for fans of the book but impossible to understand for non-readers without much explanation. These deviations I can understand and have no problem with.

Howard Shores music is once again fabulous. The Rohan theme is haunting, and Forth Eorlingas just about gets me up on my chair!

So overall, the movie stayed in fact reasonably close to the book, but where it deviates it did so in fairly painful ways, and quite needlessly in my opinion (Osgiliath, Aragorn's near demise, Entmoot). Leave out those scenes, free up some time to soften the cuts, pad out the Ents, and the movie would be nearly as good as the first. Right now I would give it 8 out of 10, may go up to 9 out of 10 after repeated viewing.

fG

[Odo Proudfoot]

Oh, another little dialog I really liked was when Faramir asks Sam: "Are you his guard?" and Sam says: "No, I am his gardener".

I don't remember this from the book, but it is very much in character.

fG

[Winch]

Well after reading all the previous reviews I think I agree with those who in the beginning said you can't make a succesful movie out of LoTR. However, I think PJ has made a fantastic set of movies based on that book which is really all it ever purported to do.

In response to a few reviews:

I think the point of Aragorn's falling off the cliff and being thought of as dead was inserted to highlight the crush Eowyn has on him (brought out by her relief when he returns).

I never really had any sympathy before for Gollum (in the book). I always thought his good side was just an attempt to win over the Hobbits until a better time availed itself to go for the ring once more. I really never saw him as that schizo.

I too was disappointed with Faramir. Totally different than the book.

[Wynston]

My first impression was that I have to see the film again. While I liked it, there was just too much for me to take in on one viewing.

I really did like Gollum. Not just the CGI, but how he was portrayed overall. You really got a sense of the duality of his nature, even if it was a bit overplayed. On the one hand I wanted to laugh at and with him, to feel sorry for him and hug him. On the other hand I was disgusted by him and wanted to hate him, at one point even wanted Sam to kill him.

The battle of the Hornburg. Wow. It just rocked. Well done, great action sequences all the way around.

I actually liked the Gimli's comic relief. The story itself is quite dark, and very sad, and I think it adds some levity. I know that's not really how he was portrayed in the books, but I think it went over well in the theater.

The openeing with Gandalf on the bridge again with the Balrog, then continuing it with him fighting was just awesome. I love that bridge sequence, and really think the Balrog is the coolest movie monster I'd ever seen so I was glad to see it again.

The Black Gate sequence was awesome. The gate iteself, the horn blowing, the trolls opening the gate, wow. And I really liked how they showed how the elf cloaks camoflaged Sam and Frodo.

I liked the Elves coming to Rohan's aid. I just like seeing elves in battle gear and fighting, but I also thought it did fit well withing the movie adaptation, and made a lot of sense withing its context.

Ents. I liked them. Especially at the end. I wish we would have seen more of them and the Entmoot. Those scenes did seem a bit chopped.

I only have some minor issues. I didn't see the need for Aragorn to go over the cliff with the Warg and for everyone to think he had died. I guess it was put in to add drama. But I don't think the movie needed more drama. I also wish that the Ents were a bit more fleshed out. The filmakers made it seem like they changed their minds in a hearbeat which, even for the movie Ents, doesn't fit into their characters. I liked Faramir and his Rangers, but I do think his change of heart at the end to let them go felt a tad abrupt also.

All in all I think it was a great movie. There are many different stories going on at once, and its very hard to tell them in 3 hours of film and make its seem cohesive, but I think PJ and crew did a nice job of this. I'm really going to have to see it a few more times to take it all in though.

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

It's really fascinating how reading others' reviews can bring one's own impressions into better focus. I've read through most of the earlier posts in this thread, and I find myself in agreement with some, but I differ strongly with others.

In general, I found this movie tracked much more closely with the books than did FotR. There were no major omissions (many minor ones, of course) as there were in part one (Old Forest, Bombadil, Barrow-wights) and fewer deviations from the books' emphasis (as with Bree, the flight to the ford, Rivendell). I seem to be in the minority here!

The elements that startled me most were...

Faramir's initial behavior. I can see some justification for this, though; it allows his character more room for development, rather than just being a cartoon of nobility. In fact, I detect the same rationale behind several of the changes PJ made, though some work better than others.

Aragorn's "release" of Arwen. Again, it does add conflict, but it seems rather far from his character as developed in the books. Perhaps this will resolve in part 3.

The Warg attack and Aragorn's fall. Not particularly useful. It adds one more battle scene to a movie already heavy with warfare, and while it might have led to dismay and despair among other characters, this wasn't really brought out well. The roused-by-his-horse scene was wonderful, though, and almost made it worthwhile.

The Entmoot's decision to "stay neutral". Wha...? There is only one possible justification, which no one else has mentioned yet (I think) -- it allows Merry and Pippin to have an important role, namely, "tricking" Treebeard into seeing the waste at Isengard and riling him up to action.

Theoden's "exorcism" -- didn't work for me. It would have been harder, and taken longer, to show Gandalf applying persuasion (backed by magic) instead of "casting out the demon", and (IMHO) it would have been both more faithful and more effective that way.

The elven snowboarding scene. Nope, didn't work. I wouldn't want to see Merry playing Nintendo, either... :p

---

So okay, I'd have done things a little differently than PJ. But the film's strengths are just incredible. Gollum is superb -- repellent and sympathetic at the same time, and the computer animation is tremendously effective. Gimli as comic relief was more than acceptable, because the humor came from within his character, rather than re-casting him as a clown. The sweep and scope of the battle at Helm's Deep were (to use a sadly overused word) awesome.

I see no reason to rate this film any lower than the first. In many respects it works better than FotR, since (as many reviewers have noted) the exposition was out of the way and it could get on with the tale. And the other things that bothered some of you -- the Nazgul's dragonish mounts and such -- were just fine by me. I'll be going back for another helping.

[Rúmil]

Brilliance!!! Not only were you dissapointed, but you are actually going to see it again, only 20 minutes after coming home from seeing it. OK, the way I said it it did seem weird :D I hate it as an adaptation, but it's well, well worth seeing for some of the scenes - Gandalf and the Balrog and Helm's Deep not the least. Just as a film, with a subject like and at least competant directing it could hardly go totally wrong, but it does really feels crushed and overcut.


Anyway, after a second viewing, I liked somewhat more the parts I liked the first time (all too few) and detested more intensely the parts I hated first time round.

1/ My major question is: why not cut off half of Frodo/Sam/Gollum (which would make it rather short, I agree, but it would have helped keep it true to the book) and focus that time on the Ents? It would make them more credible, it would give time for Treebeard to be explained more and not look like a witless gianty thing. I would have loved to hear their war-song: To Isengard with doom we come, etc.

2/ All the scenes with Faramir angered me. He looks like he has a serious attitude problem. What was so difficult in keeping the wise warrior from the books? Whole pages of the original text could have gone in without changes. It would have provided deep, absolutely real Tolkien sequences with dialogue perfectly graspable even for those who haven't read the books, even giving them extra explanation about the world. It would also have helped to blend in more of that magic, more of that detail which made Fotr so appealing to people discovering Tolien through the films.

3/ Once again, I found Frodo, Sam and Gollum terrible. (but that's just my taste; I understand that lots of people will like them, I can't really explain what it is with them, apart from the total skidding away from the books).

4/ This time round I though Éomer was an apalling actor — ugly, too, but that's in the eye of the beholder and it can't be helped anyway.

5/ This time, found Elves at Helm's Deep totally wrong. Well acted, but absurd. And I didn't care for the skateboarding scene either.

6/ For some reason I wasn't so shocked this time with the Wrags and even Théoden's "exorcising". Still much disliked it, but maybe comparison with Faramir made it seem mild.


By the way, does anyone know how much extra footage will be in the EE? it would take at least an hour to mend it, IMO.

[Fairheart]

First time poster...loooong time reader :-) I have read LoTR more times than I can count and view the books as a classic. I usually avoid posting simply because I think the beauty in books is that the beauty and imagery in a book comes not just from the author but from the reader.

No movie can be as good as a book you have read, simply because no two imaginations can work the same way. How I picture a scene or a character probably wont be how you see them/it. So any interpertation will fall short or horribly wrong when judged by your own standards. hehehe..hope that made sense...but anyway...

I did love the movie! I saw the midnight showing so I know I will have to see it again since it was all kinda of hazed in sleep! What I saw as the highpoints:

1. Ents - Well not the Ent storyline so much(that needed more), but the attack on Isengard was nice!

2. Helms Deep - Wow..incredible battle scene. Tho Legolas not being able to put an arrow in the "torch" Orcs eye was a bit silly. He hit a 1/4 inch rope from hundreds yards away, but couldnt kill the Orc?

3. Aragon, Gimli, Legolas - You can really see the friendship btwn these three deepen. Promises some nice emotional scenes in the next movie!

4. Gollum - Extremly well done!! Anytime you can feel for an obvious CGI creation speaks volumes to the script, direction, and the actor behind the scenes.

5. Elves - Well I didnt really like them comming to Helms Deep, but I love all things Elvish so the chance to see them more is always welcomed.

Well thats my humble opinion...for whats it worth! I look forward to seeing everyones opinion's!

[zhaith]

OK, 1st post here, just came back from seeing TTT, and on the whole i'm very very dissapointed.

Being an adaptation i'd expect there to be changes to the storyline to accomodate the fact that the story is massive and you cannot fit the whole book into a 3hr movie (eg Arwen in LOTR), but IMO what PJ has done with this film is inexcusable.

Negative points.

Beginning with the open scene, why did they open the film with a rehash of Gandalf fighting the Balrog on the bridge in Moria, wasn't necessary and set the completely wrong mood for the start of the film.

The whole "Dream" sequence with Arwen/Elrond/Galdriel/Arragorn was ridiculous, the idea that Arragorn dumped Arwen when leaving Rivendell is poles apart from the relationship they had in the book, and Elrond was way to anti-arragorn, verging almost to a degree of hated between them.

The Ents, why did he do it, this was one aspect of the film I was really looking forward to, unfortunatly PJ failed miserably, portraying them on the thicker side of dense, the Ents being probably the most anceint race in the trilogy according to the book, had been concerned about Sarumans exploits for some, and the tale told to Treebeard by the Hobbits was enough to push the ents into holding the entmoot, the decision in the end resulting in the sacking of Isengard, not because Pippin fooled TB into dropping them off at Isengard and TB upset with the damaged caused by Saruman causing the Ents to go on the rampage!!. Visually they looked decidedly unimposing, and not threatening, I actually thought the Ents in the animated version were closer than PJ's vision of them.

Faramir, others here have said it, and I completely agree, the screen character is more of a combination of Boromir in the beginning, reverting to Faramir'ish in the end, and as for the need to goto Osgiliath, I cant see any point to this scene whatsoever, other than to add a bit of unnecessary action with the Nazgul.

Theoden, the Gandalf "exorcism" of Saruman from Theoden was probably the most dire scene in the film, more so than the Dream sequence which is going some!, Wormtongue could have been a big more slimey but on the whole was fairly accurate.

Arragorn, loved the portrayal of Arragorn, In FOTR, but there was liitle or no advancement in his character in TTT.

Elves at Helm's Deep.....Errrr Why???? wasn't there in the book, wasn't needed for the film. Again WTF was Haldir doing there?? and why a message from elrond, when he's from lothlorien.

Stairs of cirith-ungol and shelob's lair, why this was left out and the osgiliath scene in it's place i'll never know, all I hope that when it eventually shows up in ROTK it'd better be good.

And probably the biggest sin is the relegation of Gimli from Dwarf warrior to the token comedy act, the dwarf tossing scene is shameful.

Oh well, time to eat positives to come after food:p

[legolasclan]

O.K. First let me say that I am a relatively new LOTR Fan. I read the hobbit in Jr. High but never went on to LOTR until after I saw the first movie.

Also, I've only read the book once, but loved every minute of it. I am currently on my second pass through.

Summary: I have really mixed feelings about TTT movie. 3 out of 5 stars. Loved everything, except: Faramir & Gimli character assasination and some of the artistic liberties taken.


I walked away from the theatre completely dissappointed. The more I process the movie & my feelings on it, I start to feel a little better. Here's my major bones & stars.

Gollum. Absolutely perfect wouldn't change a thing.

Logolas. Ditto....

Gimli. Poor Gimli they really short changed his character. He was much
stronger in the book IMHO.

Aragorn. O.K. but I felt he was a much stronger leader in the book. In
the book he had a much stronger sense and acceptance of his
destiny as king by this point.

Faramir. It is completely sacreligious what they did to him. Whoever
made that call should be banned from any further efforts of
turning literary classics into movies. He was so much stronger,
wiser, and full of honor in the book. They completely robbed
him of all of his salient characterstics.

Ents. Loved them, wouldn't cut them from the movie. I think this is an
important part because it where Merry & Pippin start to develop
their strength that is so important later. I hated how they
dumbed down Treebeard. Like he needed to be tricked or
goaded into war. In the book, the council voted the war.

Elves at Helms Deep. Slightly bothered by it. Simply because IMHO this
part of the story is completely about men.
Especially when they made such a big deal about
the failings of man in FOTR. Yet again it
seems that men need to be saved by the Elves.

Aragorn over the cliff? I think PJ just wanted to give the people who
haven't read the book a little thrill ride. "Oh no,
is he dead, etc...".



Anyway, I hope they fix some of this w/ the EE. Can't wait to see it. I'm really nervous about ROTK now. I've heard they cut out the scouring of the shire, etc... That's too bad. I think that really helps to show the growth of all the hobbits, etc... Also, if PJ cuts the departure of Frodo, Bilbo, etc... that will be very disappointing.

[Ecthelion]

I'm going to see the movie in 4 hours. I'll give you my review when I get back:) Hopefully it will be decent considering what I've heard about it so far..........

[jnicklo]

Ok saw it last night on the Large format screen!!!

Opening: The movie had a nice start, it wasnt too subtle and it didnt skip much. It took place where the previous movie left off.

Frodo: Seeing I cant stand Elijah Wood (never could) Frodo's part in this movie was played well.

Arragon: This guy is the best, Arragon is showing more and more signs of Kingship in each scene. The scene where he opens the doors was great, as was him tossing Gimli (lol)

Gandolf: Im surprised not as many people mentioned this, but the battle between him and the fire demon was badass!! The fact that he battled with it to the top of the mountains was excellent. Gandolf is one tough wizard!

Legolas: Great stunts, great backup hero. The shield slide stunt was great, I was impressed by that one.

Gimli: Funny little dwarf, didnt do much ass kicking at all though. His "Kill Count" with Legolas was a good addition.

Sam: Great supporting charecter, he held Frodo together and didnt let him falter

Gullum aka Smeigal: I feel bad for this guy =( He was extremely funny yet you saw the evil inside him due to the Ring of Power. The scene where he battled his evil side was great. The switching of the camera angles was a great. When he called Sam "fat hobbit" I couldnt stop laughing.

Arwen: Liv Tyler is HOT! If her and Arragon dont get married I'll be quite upset.

All the rest: Great cast, the Trees kicked ass when they destroyed the Uru-Kai factory, the lack Elven Archers mopped up the place, and anyone I left out did a great job acting.

Overall I like The Two Towers ALOT more than Fellowship of the Ring. Im into battle scenes big time and this movie fullfilled my th