Istari

[Mr. Underhill]

I remember reading somewhere that there were actually five of the Istari. Saruman the White, Gandalf the Gray, Radagast the Brown, and two other "blue" wizards, who ventured on into the East of Middle-Earth. Does anyone know if Tolkien ever went into further detail concerning these two "blue" wizards?

[Telchar]

I know that this has been discussed before, it just took me a while to find out where it had been discussed.. :)
About the Istari (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102)

[Mr. Underhill]

Thanx Telchar, that was very interesting.

[Flame of Utumno]

For info on the Blue Wizards (Ithryn Luin), go to 'Unfinished Tales' p.390 and also see note 3. According to Tolkien's letter they went as emissaries to distant lands in the east, completely out of range of Numenorean influence. They most probably turned evil or were seduced by Sauron.

[Grond]

Actually I remember somewhere in JRRT's letters that he said the Blue Wizards did much good in the Far East and swayed many who previously worshiped Sauron to turn from him.

Cian, you've posted about this before.... please find the reference for me.

[LugniGrond]

i think the blue wizards names were alatar and pallando

[Black Horseman]

I believe that Sarumen killed them when he bring them to far east because his the only one who knows and didn't like any other Istari than himself, that brave Saruman...

[Cian]

Originally posted by Grond
Cian, you've posted about this before.... please find the reference for me.

Just saw this:

In thread "Let's discuss" (Hall of Fire) Telchar had already quoted from PoMe on the "Blues", so I followed with the Letters quote for interesting comparison.

I think those are what you're looking for Grond, at least the PoMe quote in any case. If you still are looking that is :)

[Grond]

Well Cian, since my original post, I have gotten the HoMe for Christmas and found and posted the references myself on another similar thread that I can't find... but I'll be darned if I'm gonna type it again. :)

Thanks for responding anyway.

[Úlairi]

The names of the two Ithryn Luin was Alatar and Pallando and they were both Maiar of Orome!!:p

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ulairi
The names of the two Ithryn Luin was Alatar and Pallando and they were both Maiar of Orome!!:p That is their names from Unfinished Tales. In The Peoples of Middle-earth they are called Morinehtar and Romestamo which is Darkness-slayer and East-helper. From the Chapter Last Writings sub heading The Five Wizards...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West.

[Hama]

Thanks for clearing it up, Grond. Tolkien did hint (check the Istari section of the Unfinished Tales) that there were more than just five. Only five came to the north though. However, was Sauron's reach to the south and east of ME enough to justify sending istari there?

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Hama
Thanks for clearing it up, Grond. Tolkien did hint (check the Istari section of the Unfinished Tales) that there were more than just five. Only five came to the north though. However, was Sauron's reach to the south and east of ME enough to justify sending istari there?


Yes it would be stronger there. That is where harad, and the other evil men came from as well as mordor's food and water.

[Grond]

In Unfinished Tales it states of the Ithryn Luin (the Blue Wizards),

"...for they passed into the East with Curunir (Saruman), but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, it not now known..."

As you can see from this quote, the five were composed of Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and the two Blue Wizards. In UT, they are named Alatar and Pallando and pass into the East with Saruman. Years later, Saruman returns but the Blue Wizards do not. No further explanation is given in UT.

Tolkien expanded upon his thoughts of the Blue Wizards in later writings which were published under the Peoples of Middle-earth, which I cited earlier in this thread. But, based on these two resources it is apparent that the five wizards who came to the North of Middle-earth are the five we are speaking of and though others may have gone to the South, they are not mentioned by name or reference other than the one already cited. :)

[Grond]

Walter, surely you realize that Middle-earth was evolving all the time and that JRRT continued to record the mythology and discover new things he had overlooked. I'm sure that the UT quotes and the HoMe quotes were derived from material that Tolkien had deciphered after the letters you cite were written. :)

What are you doing coming back here after being absent for weeks and raining on my parade????? :D;)

[Hama]

Yes, I think on this forum people often forget that there are certain inconsistencies in Tolkien's work as his own thoughts about ME changed over the years.

[Zale]

What makes us think that Sauron was the only 'problem' in Middle-Earth that the Valar wanted to deal with? Remember there is the rest of the World (Ambar, I think) that they have to look after. Perhaps the Ithryn Luin were sent to deal with such a matter; perhaps even to combat the remaining Balrogs?

BTW - what the heck happened to the post counters?

[Úlairi]

Walter and Grond, I have become quite an expert on the Ithryn Luin and what you have said is true. And there is other reference to them. Both in UT and 'The peoples of Middle-earth'. Mormegil and I have are currently having quite the debate on this subject that we have on a little thread of our own in the Silmarillion forum. Check it out if you like. Morinehtar and Romestamo (Alatar and Pallando) did have quite an effect on the happenings of the Second and the Third Ages. Read the section on it if you'd like, I believe Grond, that you already have because you used it somewhere to win an argument and I checked up on it (in my usual fashion), it is very good!