TTT flaws are largely in the editing

[PRH]

I really think this could've been a much different, and better movie if the editing were totally revamped. It may have seemed archaic but in hindsight, JRRT's strategy of telling the separate threads in their entirety separately was quite effective. The movie should've been more courageous and done it more like the book. The edits should've cut between thread much less often, telling huge chunks of each thread at a time. I think three visits to each thread might have worked well: short setup, bulk (leaving each at it's darkest point), then resolution. To tell each thread in it's entirety separtely like the book probably would've been taking it too far, but the material just didn't lend itself to the editing style it was given. I found the intercutting to be jarring. It reminded you that this was a movie, and it pulled you out of the story. In the case of the Ents (as Talimon has pointed out) it put the brakes on sometimes.

[poeticlicense21]

When they ut from the battle at helm's deep and went to the scene with Treebeard and Marry and Pippen I was very upset. To the point where I wanted to walk out of the theater. My expectations were set very very high for Helm's Deep and while it was decent, I was dissapointed with it overall mainly because of my high expectations.

Vinnie

[Talimon]

I don't know... I saw the film for the second time today and the editing worked much better for me. The ents still feel a little akward, but overall I liked the general pacing. Don't exagerate it... we do get farily big chunks of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum story. If I remember correctly we stick with Frodo/Sam all the way from the scene with "Smeagols victory" to Faramir capturing them. This was a good 10 minutes at least, if I remember correctly. It's really funny, because in retrospect I just can't add all the scenes up to 3 hours. :) But I think we stay for fairly long chunks of time on each tale (ents aside).

Part of the reason I am excited about RotK is because of the two threads being so perfect. Frodo/Sam/Gollums thread will be highly personal and emotional, and Aragorns will be so mythic and epic. But TTT is a good transition between the singularity of FotR and the likely split nature of RotK. That is exactly what I see this film as: a transition.

[aragil]

Hmm. I agree that the flipping from scene to scene was jarring, but I just don't see any other way of doing it. I'm not even sure three scenes with each thread would be enough. Don't know how I'd do this on my own, or even if it's possible to succeed more than PJ did here. I do know that I can't wait to own all three DVDs. I think watching them back-to-back will really help the 'choppiness' of TTT, which I think is hurt by the lack of intro (I was unsettled at the beginning, and never really settled in later on). I also think I'm getting a five-disk changer for X-mas, heh-heh.

[Niniel]

I didn't mind the jumping from one scene to another, it's really the only way of doing it. There are some editing flaws IMO though, especially the fact that Frodo & Sam were not allowed enough time. In the book they have the whole book 4 to themselves, so the film should have been divided equally instead of focussing on the battle elements of the film. Some scenes should have been edited shorter, especially Helm's Deep and the Elrond/Arwen/Aragorn thing. There was not enough time for Faramir to develop his character, which caused his decision to let Frodo go come completely out of the blue. I was really disappointed by this.
If they had spent less time on Helm's Deep, they could have fit in more of the book, especially the part where Gandalf goes to Isengard to kick Saruman out, and how Pippin steals the Palantír. I'm afraid these parts will not be in ROTK. So there were indeed some serious problems with the editing which make TTT inferior to FOTR IMO.

[aragil]

I don't see how the Palantir and Saruman could be left out of RotK. I might be wrong here, but I highly doubt that PJ is just going to leave those threads dangling. I think PJ is mainly concerned with buffing up RotK (which is very slim if you take out appendices and the scouring of the shire).

Simply for my own thoughts, I'm still trying to understand how PJ managed to cut out EIGHT chapters (Nine if you consider that the Departure of Boromir was moved up to FotR) and still have a 3 hour movie that felt so rushed. Maybe a second viewing will help me ....

[Glebriwyn]

The movie definately had that 'Attack of the Clones' feel, lots of chopping to other scenes and stories, but after a couple of viewings I'm sure it will feel better.

BTW TTT gets a huge thumbs up from me, was it really 3 hours long, felt like an hour and a half.

[Lindir]

Originally posted by Glebriwyn
The movie definately had that 'Attack of the Clones' feel, lots of chopping to other scenes and stories, but after a couple of viewings I'm sure it will feel better.

But why should it need several viewings? I know I'm going to try for it, but a good film should really be good in the first viewing, as I think the first film was. Now it will be more getting used to the disappointments.

[Eledhwen]

TTT was exhausting to watch. It didn't have the book's balance between the heat of battle and the more ponderous scenes, which would have allowed the audience to take in and assimilate what they have just watched.

Ents... There's no way you can do ents and not have them seeming anachronistic - they were from the deep past, even in Middle Earth III. PJ made Treebeard a lot more stupid - like a grumpy neighbour who has caught kids in his garden; but technically I thought the Ents were as Entish as I could imagine (though they bent at the knee a bit too well).

Talking about beards, did anyone else notice that Gandalf's was shorter? It must've got singed in the battle with the Balrog.

I liked the Elves at Helm's Deep, and I don't think Tolkien would have minded too much (not after seeing the previous animated efforts, anyway!), and they were very good. I liked Legolas's comment about aiming for the necks - in the dark with bow and arrow!

Non-reading audiences may have found it all too confusing (my husband didn't realise that Isengard and Helm's deep were two separate places, not right next to each other, until I told him. From a distance, Saruman and Gandalf now look very similar - cf. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn in the book).

[Glebriwyn]

I don't think it's getting used to the dissapointments because for me there aren't any. My problem is when a movie chops and changes like this one does I find it hard to follow the story.

I will be going to see it a few more times because I liked it and want to see it again on the big screen with the big sound system before I am resigned to watching it on the TV at home in a few months time.:)

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
Don't exagerate it... we do get farily big chunks of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum story. If I remember correctly we stick with Frodo/Sam all the way from the scene with "Smeagols victory" to Faramir capturing them. This was a good 10 minutes at least, if I remember correctly. It's really funny, because in retrospect I just can't add all the scenes up to 3 hours. :) But I think we stay for fairly long chunks of time on each tale (ents aside).

I don't consider 10 minutes a very long chunk. I'm thinking - half hour blocks.

If I get my hands on a copy of this I might have to try re-editing it myself to test my theory.

[BelDain]

Originally posted by Glebriwyn
The movie definately had that 'Attack of the Clones' feel,

Oh lord, how can you even make that comparison? TTT was awesome the first time and even better the second.

[Glebriwyn]

BelDain,

I didn't mean TTT was like AOTC, what I meant was that AOTC also chopped and changed about so that it was difficult to follow.

TTT is way above anything AOTC could have been.

[BelDain]

Originally posted by Glebriwyn
TTT is way above anything AOTC could have been.

Okay, sweet.

[Wynston]

The choppiness didn't really bother me. I thought it worked rather well. The only reason I need to see it multiple times is that there is SO much crammed into 3 hours. I honestly couldn't take it all in one viewing. I'm going to see it tomorrow, and I'm really looking forward to it again!

[Talimon]

Originally posted by Lindir
But why should it need several viewings? I know I'm going to try for it, but a good film should really be good in the first viewing, as I think the first film was. Now it will be more getting used to the disappointments.

I can't speak for others, but for me FotR was dissapointing on my first viewing. I was so caught up in the hype and expectations that I was completely blinded regarding PJ's intentions. Instead of watching PJ's movie, I was doing what many others still seem to do: watching my "movie" being changed. That was too much. It took me another 2-3 viewings to actually settle down and judge what PJ was doing by what he was doing. The first viewing of a film like this is filled to the brim with hype and expectations, regardless of who you are. Even if you come in very relaxed, the energy in the audience around you will influence you. Personally I love that "first time" energy, and am going to relish the experience of seeing the film this weekend with an audience who hasn't seen the film. But for some that excitement can blind them from the film, and that is why a second viewing is necessary. It's not about "getting used to the dissapointments". That is what Star Wars fans have done with Episode I (and maybe even II). I saw Episode I 4-5 times in the theatre, just to make sure I wasn't being blinded by hype. I wasn't; the film just wasn't good. I never got used to it. This wasn't the same with FotR, nor is it for TTT (at least as far as my two viewings can tell). I am not saying TTT is perfect, but it has moments that mop FotR off the floor. And when I keep in mind that it is a transition piece that isn't supposed to end, everything works out much more smoothly. I can let the threads be, knowing that they will be ended at a later date.

[Lindir]

Originally posted by Talimon
I can't speak for others, but for me FotR was dissapointing on my first viewing. I was so caught up in the hype and expectations that I was completely blinded regarding PJ's intentions. Instead of watching PJ's movie, I was doing what many others still seem to do: watching my "movie" being changed. That was too much. It took me another 2-3 viewings to actually settle down and judge what PJ was doing by what he was doing. The first viewing of a film like this is filled to the brim with hype and expectations, regardless of who you are. Even if you come in very relaxed, the energy in the audience around you will influence you.
I guess you might be right. Maybe I will like it better after a second view, but I won't like it as much as I did the first one. My expectations regarding TTT were high, but I camed prepared for major changes and I really have no problem with the films not being identical to the book, that's not even possible. Even so I was disappointed. I couldn't relax and enjoy the film because of anxiety about the next thing I wouldn't like. I really wanted to like this film, since I loved the first, and I certainly will see it again, several times. So I hope you're right Talimon, and I will be able to change my initial reaction, at least a bit.

[Foe-Hammer]

you npw's do realize that jrr's works are FICTION?! any changes made to the story are just as ficticious as his original version......

[PRH]

Ok. I've softened my stance a little bit on the editing. There is one major edit I still think stunk to high heaven (among a bunch of lesser poor edits):

The cut from early in the Helm's Deep battle to the Entmoot, when Treebeard says to M&P that they've decided that they are not orcs is a good edit, it feels okay. Then it goes back to Helm's Deep, good. The next cut to the Entmoot is horrible though, when Treebeard annouces they are not going to war. This is a major 'put on the brakes' edit. Every time I see it I think to myself, 'you gotta be kidding going back the Entmoot now!' This scene should be combined with the previous Entmoot scene ('you are not orcs') and the two Helm's Deep scenes that bookend it as it sits should be combined.

The tones of the two Helm's Deep scenes which would now be continuous are heroic (for the first one) and then very desperate/hopeless (for the second, which includes Haldir's death). I think transition between these two moods without an edit to the Entmoot would work fine, the music will handle the necessary mood shift.

[Asha'man]

The main thing I noticed was the lack of explanation for Brego showing up. I hear that they'll put the part where Aragorn releases him in the EE, but for the theater version it was really confusing as to where he came from. That's the only thing I can remember.

Ash

[Valdarmyr]

I seem to remember either PJ or one of the other screenwriters saying in an interview that the choice to edit away from the Helm's Deep scenes was deliberate, so as not to make viewers too "tense" for too long. I could be wrong about this...don't know if anyone else read that interview.

I think some of the scenes with the Ents HAD to be intercut with the Helm's Deep scenes, since either Merry or Pippin is urging them to go to war, and that ties in with the battle. But I agree that it does seem to release the tension a bit too much.

By the way, Greencine.com has an interview with Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd talking about their experiences filming the Treebeard scenes, if you want to read it...here's the link. They call the interview "The Merry and Pippin Show."

http://www.greencine.com/article?action=view&articleID=62&pageID=107