"The way is shut" guy

[JanitorofAngmar]

In the Two Towers, Theoden the king relates a story regarding the paths of the dead and a fellow beyond the guess of years that was sitting at the entrance who spoke "the way is shut" and another line which evades me right now, and then dropped dead essentially.

Does anyone have any info on who, what, when, where, this guy is/was and what he was doing there?

And just how long had he been sitting there?


I can't find anything in the appendix or the CGTME.

Dig deep wise ones...please.

Regards,
JoA

[Telchar]

Good question, but I can't give you an aswer to it.. :(
I've wondered about this, and I've searched through HoME and found nothing about it.. So as far as I know, it's a "loose end" in the story.. :(

[Greymantle]

*Gasp!* There's something Telchar doesn't know! :eek: *Watches as pigs fly, Hell freezes over*
*Whistles for Cian* If Cian and Tel don't know, no one does, with the possible exception of mister Chris T.

[Gothmog]

The Way is shut.
The way is shut. It was made by those who are Dead and the Dead keep it, until the time comes. The way is shut.
The Return of the King: The Muster of Rohan : page 81


It seems that the Oath Broken was powerful enough to overcome the command and Gift of Illuvatar himself as the dead did not leave the Earth but remained tied to the Dwimorberg and the stone of Erech awaiting the second summons to war with Sauron. So it is also possible that this same power could hold someone on the edge of death itself until the warning about the Paths of the Dead was passed on to the living.

[Telchar]

Yes, but if im not mistaking, the path had already gotten it's name by then, and IIRC Brego (I might be mixing names here) said when he was drunk that he was going to go through the Paths of the Dead, whitch he failed to do.. (It was a bet..)

[Gothmog]

It was Brego and his son Baldor who went up to the Dwimorberg and found the old man who told them about the Paths of the Dead. This was before the building of Meduseld. When Brego had built Meduseld, he held a great feast. It was at this feast that Baldor son of Brego made the vow to walk the Paths of the Dead 'And he came never to the high seat of which he was the heir.'

[Telchar]

That's right.. But I don't think that the man that told them the name of the path was one of those that broke the Oath.. I don't find anything is the story that gives Isildur the power to prolong the life of that man, if he could, he is more powerful than Manwe.. The Oath breakers might be his ancestors, but I doubt that he was one of the Oath breakers..

[Gothmog]

The Paths of the Dead is probably the name that the Rohirrim gave after the old man told them about the way. I never said that Isildur had the power to do any thing of the kind. It was the Oath and the breaking of the Oath that I think had the power to do this as it was a very personal thing and therefore gained power over the spirits of those who made and reneged upon it. If what I think is true then the power of this Broken Oath is not only greater than Manwe, but is also greater than the will of Illuvatar that men leave the Earth when they die.

[Telchar]

Though about it on the way home from work last night.. And I came to think about something.. The men are as the elves, built up by the fea and the hroa, spirit and body. If they swore the Oath in a way that bound their spirits to the Oath then Men are more powerful than Eru.. Hmm.. Do we know the exact words of the oath?

[Gothmog]

I do not know about the Exact wording of the Oath. maybe Cian can enlighten us. As for Men being more powerful than Eru, I do not think that this is so. Only that they can be more powerful than the force Eru put into the command to leave Arda when they die. This would still make Men conciderably more powerful than they at first appear.

[Telchar]

Yes.. I think the answer is in the oath.. But I can't recall that i've ever seen it in HoME.. It might be mentioned in the letters though..

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Gothmog
I do not know about the Exact wording of the Oath. maybe Cian can enlighten us. As for Men being more powerful than Eru, I do not think that this is so. Only that they can be more powerful than the force Eru put into the command to leave Arda when they die. This would still make Men conciderably more powerful than they at first appear.

I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility that Eru simply... willed that the men be held to their oath, even beyond their lives.

I don't really think that the men or the oath could controvert the immutable will of the One.

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen


I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the possibility that Eru simply... willed that the men be held to their oath, even beyond their lives.

I don't really think that the men or the oath could controvert the immutable will of the One.

Yes but which command would have the greater force? The one to leave or the one to stay. And both would then be "The immutable will of the One."

[Telchar]

Well, it's a possibility, but i find it extreamly hard to belive that Eru would removed their gift until they had fulfilled their oath.. Another thing, Eru gave Arda in the "costody" of the Valar.. So i would find it very strange if Eru should intervein with the Valar in a way like that, when he never ever interveined against Melkor..

(Sorry about the spelling..)

[Grond]

Okay... I've been researching a little and let me attack this in a few different ways.

First, the guy encountered by Brego and Baldur is described in TROTK, The Passing of the Grey Company, as "...an old man, aged beyond guess of years; tall and kingly he had been, but now he was withered as an old stone..." Later in, The Muster of Rohan, concerning the fate of the mountain people, it states, '...and they hid themselves in secret places in the mountains and had no dealings with other men, but slowly dwindled in the barren hills..." This encounter between Brego and Baldur, and the old man occurs some 2570 years after the breaking of the oath and the curse of Isildur. It seems unlikely that it would take 2570 years to dwindle as a people.... so, we are left with the likely proposition that they encountered a ghost. A pale shade of the King of the Mountain People, who guarded the entrance.

As far as the curse itself, Isildur said, "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk; to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end." Now, I doubt that Isildur had any extra-spiritual power to force the mountain people to stay on as shades.... but, we don't know that upon which they swore the oath. Remember that Feanor swore an oath "by the name even of Iluvator...", and he was held to it through countless years and so were all those that went with him. If the people of the mountains swore such an oath, they, too, may have been held to it. I would bet that the oath was sworn in such a manner as to hold them to this earth until they were summoned some years later. I don't think that it was Isildur's curse that held them.... it was the oath. They were later referred to by Aragorn as "oathbreakers" and not "the accursed".

At least that will give y'all in the thread something to ponder.... but, as usual, I could be wrong....

[Telchar]

You could be right, but we may never know..

I don't think they encountered a ghost, since the man died, he didn't just dissapeared.. But he might be a decentant of the oathbreakers.. It's difficult to say, since the information you get in LoTR is not enough to say that it is that or it isn't that..

[Grond]

Yeah, Tel.... I missed the "died" part of the quote. So the old man must have been a descendent of the King of the mountain people as he was described as "kingly".

As for the rest, I fear you are right that we may never know... unless there is something related to these issues in the HoME or in his letters. Okay, members of this learned forum... any takers. I don't have HoME or The Letters yet. Someone...come up with the answer.:p

[Telchar]

IIRC there is not anything more said about it in HoME, but I don't have the letters so.. Cian?

[Lantarion]

Sorry, I'm going to momentarily change the subject..
Welcome, Lavaithan! :)

[ReadWryt]

See, this is what I love about Forums like this. What can start as a seemingly simple question can flower into a really great discussion about so many aspects of the subject matter. I just thought I would congratulate you guys on a really interesting thread so far...

[JanitorofAngmar]

Wow,

I was away from the computer for a day or two here and this developed into quite an interesting thread.

My wife said the other day that I was good at opening "cans of worms" apparently this adds credance to her claim.

Excellent discussion!

JoA

[Grond]

Aye, Walter. It doth seem that there art no more material from which to draw, lest the Letters of JRRT shed light upon this wondrous topic.

(Hehe, I've been reading Macbeth today!)

[Cian]

LoL! What to add? Of interest might be that the old Man was early said to resemble one of the Púkel-men, and Chris Tolkien notes against that, as has
been said:

"In RotK (pg.71) the old withered man is said to have been once 'tall and kingly' Cf The Lord of the Rings Appendix F (of Men): 'The Dunlendings were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin."

About the oath and etc, just to remark on the Northern traditions here, HR Ellis Davidson points out the literary emphasis of the binding nature of oaths and promises, the Gods themselves were in danger if they might break an agreement: "... although tricskster figures like Odin or Loki may find a way through by subterfuge or ingenious use of words. Heroes in Icelandic and Irish sagas go to their deaths because they are forced by circumstances to break an obligation or infringe a taboo."

I don't know if that helps really, but anyway, ahh ... just watch out when oathtaking! ;) Though Chrysophylax broke his oaths effectually, which should have given him "great fear of disaster" ... and things worked out reasonably well in the end for him, considering the circumstances.

~~~
BTW, anybody know what happened to "Ulfhedne's" quiz thread yesterday? I know I posted on Gandalf's death and the S-rune ... it's one of the two I had time for yesterday, now gone it seems :confused: Oh well.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Telchar
Well, it's a possibility, but i find it extreamly hard to belive that Eru would removed their gift until they had fulfilled their oath.. Another thing, Eru gave Arda in the "costody" of the Valar.. So i would find it very strange if Eru should intervein with the Valar in a way like that, when he never ever interveined against Melkor..

(Sorry about the spelling..)

So you think that it is _more_ likely that somehow these mortal men, or a simple oath, were able to controvert the will of the creator of everything?

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Tyaronumen


So you think that it is _more_ likely that somehow these mortal men, or a simple oath, were able to controvert the will of the creator of everything?

For my part Yes. As I think you will see from my post in answer you your suggestion. I do think that your idea has merit, but I feel that unless we are certain just how much of Eru's will was put into the command for the spirits of men to leave we cannot judge how powerful an oath would need to be to overcome it. And anyway, how do we know that it was a 'Simple Oath' Feanor's Oath was far from simple.

[ReadWryt]

"Letters" does not speak to this matter at all, not that I could find anyways. I don't think it is something anyone asked the old guy about unfortunately as had they we would surely have been treated to a two page letter explaining the fellow's lineage dating back to the first age...heheh

[Grond]

Well, how about a different thought? We haven't mentioned the importance of The Stone of Erech. In the Index of TRotK, it refers to "Stone of Erech, a tryst-stone (symbol of Isildur's overlordship), III54-5....."

And in the text itself, it says in TRotK, The Passing of the Grey Company, "Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Numenor and there set by Isildur at his landing. None of the people of the valley dared to approach it, nor would they dwell near; for they said that it was a trysting-place of the Shadow-men and there they would gather in times of fear, thronging round the Stone and whispering."

Who can say what hidden power this stone possessed??? It came from Numenor. Could it not have been brought to Numenor by the folk of the furthest West? Could it have been a gift, much the same as the Palantari, which were also "blessed" and powerful in their own right? Who now lives that can say by what power the oathbreakers were bound to ME beyond the days of their lives, living as shades of men, ghosts of the Otherworld, awaiting the day that they could fulfill their Oath and finally be free to fly to that place where all mortals of ME dwell upon death. Bound by an oath made to Isildur, sworn on the Numernorean trysting stone placed at Erech. Bound by the power of the Valar; nay, by the power of Eru Himself, which was bound up in the Stone.

Okay, there you have it. My first "real" narrative after over 300 posts. I don't do that often.... but sometimes I just can't help myself.

Now... tell me what you think.. Does the explanation have potential?? If not, you won't hurt my feelings by blowing it full of holes. After all, I'm here for insightful and inciteful discussion and debate. Now..... lock and load.

[bizutch]

But Isuldur was wearing the One Ring at the time of the curse right...& those things under hold, created or bound by the power of the One Ring have the power of life extended for beyond their normal lifespan. I win the prize.

[Grond]

Sorry, Bizutch. I'm sure that The Oath was made at Isildur's landing or shortly thereafter. Definately before the Final Battle when Isildur's father and Gil-galad were killed. He would not have had The One Ring in his possession yet. But it was a good thought.

By the way, welcome to the forum.

[Telchar]

Welcome to the Tolkien Forum bizutch! :)

Who can say what hidden power this stone possessed??? It came from Numenor. Could it not have been brought to Numenor by the folk of the furthest West? Could it have been a gift, much the same as the Palantari, which were also "blessed" and powerful in their own right? Who now lives that can say by what power the oathbreakers were bound to ME beyond the days of their lives, living as shades of men, ghosts of the Otherworld, awaiting the day that they could fulfill their Oath and finally be free to fly to that place where all mortals of ME dwell upon death. Bound by an oath made to Isildur, sworn on the Numernorean trysting stone placed at Erech. Bound by the power of the Valar; nay, by the power of Eru Himself, which was bound up in the Stone.

Iirc there are no records about this stone having powers, the only thing that is said is; For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Numenor and there set by Isildur at his landing. None of the people of the valley dared to approach it, nor would they dwell near; for they said that it was a trysting-place of the Shadow-men and there they would gather in times of fear, thronging round the Stone and whispering.

If they swore by the Valar it would indeed be as the oath of Feanor, and their spirits would be bound to Arda untill they could fufull their oath. But one thing puzzles me, why did Isildur curse them as he did? For one thing, I doubt that they where many enough to have changed the outcome of the war for either of the sides. And they are only mentioned once in the narrative, there is nothing about them before or after, so i find it strange that a curse like that was put on them..

[Grond]

Tel, I was trying to use my imagination to come up with a logical explanation for the Oathbreakers being held to this plane after death. It has absolutely no substantiation in the book, but neither has any other solution put forward. We've pretty well decided that there is no definitive anwer... not in tLotR, UT, Sil, HoME, or JJRT's letters. There is no mention how this feat was accomplished.

I was just trying to come up with a plausible way for these things to have occurred and presented it in a decent and, yes, Tokienish style. What I was hoping was for people to comment on the potential of the idea put forward and the way in which I presented it.

[Telchar]

Sorry, may have missunderstood it a bit.. :) Well, anyway..I like your theory.. Your right that the power of Eru is bound in the stone, because he created Ea, so his power, or more like a part of his power, will be in all things so to say.. I doubt that the oath breakers are bound to Arda by the will of Eru, and I doubt that the Valar have the power to hold them back.. Unless they swore by the Valar.. It would be impossible for them to undo the oath, because the Valar delt little with men, and as far as I know, Ulmo is the onlyone among the Valar that openly visited Middle Earth, but that was long before the oath was sworen..

(Better answer? Or did i missunderstand it again?)

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Telchar
Sorry, may have missunderstood it a bit.. :) Well, anyway..I like your theory.. Your right that the power of Eru is bound in the stone, because he created Ea, so his power, or more like a part of his power, will be in all things so to say.. I doubt that the oath breakers are bound to Arda by the will of Eru, and I doubt that the Valar have the power to hold them back.. Unless they swore by the Valar.. It would be impossible for them to undo the oath, because the Valar delt little with men, and as far as I know, Ulmo is the onlyone among the Valar that openly visited Middle Earth, but that was long before the oath was sworen..

(Better answer? Or did i missunderstand it again?)

IMHO, all of the events in Tolkien's stories take place within the constraints created by Eru Iluvatar. Being held back or not held back, etc.

[Telchar]

I was talking about directly intervening, like the drowning of Numenore, i probably should have said that.

[gil-estel]

God you guys write like demons-away for a week and......


Picking up on something said earlier bout the Pukel-men. In the unfinished tales something is said bout them having mysterious powers, like them putting spell on stone to kill orcs etc

Could this be what was sitting at the door-someone with a spell or somethin??:confused:

[Grond]

Thanks to all for their comments on my possible solution of this thread. One clarification though, when I said that the Stone of Erech could have come from the Uttermost West, I was implying that it could have been a gift from the Eldar or the Valar or perhaps from Eru. That is all. Apparently the stone definately has some symbolic, religious or other importance than just being a stone. After all, it was brought from Numenor by Isildur. He must have a reason for bringing it with him and placing it where he did.

Any more thoughts???????? This is, indeed, a very thought provoking thread.

[Elfarmari]

Another old thread I think has a lot of original thoughts. . .

At first I thought that the somehow Brego was the old man, but then I realized that he must be the one already dead. Oh well.
I like Grond's explanation a lot.

[Hammersmith]

Sorry, Bizutch. I'm sure that The Oath was made at Isildur's landing or shortly thereafter. Definately before the Final Battle when Isildur's father and Gil-galad were killed. He would not have had The One Ring in his possession yet. But it was a good thought.

Actually, I think Bizutch's point may hold at least some water yet. Obviously Isildur was granted the alleigance prior to the battle against Sauron, and so cannot have the ring, that's not the point that's really interesting. But the whole story of the One Ring would give a powerful precedent for life extended to unnatural lengths. By all accounts, this old geezer is fairly emaciated, possibly even warped. Maybe (and this is pure speculation) he was not a part of the original faithlessness, but rather came under the spirit of deathless incarceration under the mountain at a later date? He did not become one of the deathless dead, but neither was he permitted to leave until he had at least ushered in the herald of the oath's fulfillment?
Basically, to strip away my speculation, what if he was vaguely connected with the oathbreakers, his life was unnarturally extended (a phenomenon for which we have precedent) as a sort of peripheral punishment, and thus because he was only partly under the "curse", he was the first to be released to death when Aragorn turns up?

I have a fraction the knowledge of anyone else here, so feel more than free to shred this pathetically weak argument.

[Alcuin]

This encounter between Brego and Baldur, and the old man occurs some 2570 years after the breaking of the oath and the curse of Isildur. It seems unlikely that it would take 2570 years to dwindle as a people.... so, we are left with the likely proposition that they encountered a ghost. A pale shade of the King of the Mountain People, who guarded the entrance.We haven't mentioned the importance of The Stone of Erech. ... It came from Numenor. Could it not have been brought to Numenor by the folk of the furthest West?There is a new thread on the Stone of Erech at http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=17197 (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=17197).

I am quite inclined to agree with Grond. In “The Muster of Rohan”, Théoden says of the old man, And then a voice came out of him, as it were out of the ground … [T]he old man died in that hour and fell upon his face.The Rohirrim were convinced that the man who spoke to them was ancient but alive, and perhaps he was. But the “voice came out of him, as it were out of the ground,” and that might be a disembodied voice. Tolkien describes these creatures not as ghosts or phantoms, but as wraiths, the same word he uses for the Nazgûl and for the kind of creature men who succumbed to Morgul knife-wounds became. I think that term has the peculiar meaning of a mortal soul “trapped,” as it were, and unable to leave Eä.

I doubt that Isildur trapped the Dead Men of Dunharrow. He might, however, have structured the oath so that they were subject to some difficulty in their religion: they worshipped Sauron, “The Necromancer,” a malevolent being who specialized in such disreputable activities as making wraiths.

Somehow, I can more easily tolerate the concept of some lonely and forsaken wraith, miserable in its prison, speaking to Brego and Baldur and then passing on into the underground passages than I can of a man 2500-2600 years old, breathing his last to warn the heirs of Eorl to stay off his property. (“And keep yer dogs outta my shrubbery, too – urk!”)

[Hobbit-GalRosie]

Wow, this is one of the more fascinating threads I've seen. We have three extremely good theories by Grond, Hammersmith, and Alcuin, which seem to me to be about equally likely, esp. as all have that indefinable air of Tolkien, being closely based on things we have seen elsewhere in his mythos. I can't think of anything else to add at the moment, but I really wanted to comment on how smart these people are. Kudos. I do feel somehow that being held by their oath is more likely than being held by a curse, but I think really that they kind of go hand and hand, and perhaps it's more like the curse was possible because of the oath otherwise it would have had no power, or something like that. On the whole though the curse seems more like a dramatic portent, a literary device, and the oath a good deal more substantial, esp. given the way like others have said they were always referred to as oath-breakers, as if this were the most significant thing about them. Okay, those are my two cents. Now could the smart people who actually undertand these things unlike me come back and discuss them? *PLLEEEEEAAAASE*