Development of Aragorn

[aragil]

Judging by people's reaction to the movie, this looks like it might be a pretty good thread for discussion of one of the most important (IMO) objectives of this film- the development of Aragorn's character into someone that will be THE King in RotK. I've already seen the spectrum of comments- from no development (backsliding even) to "development in every scene". What do people think- did PJ get the job done?

[Talimon]

I voted "adequate", but this requires explanation. There are two things worth noting here: one, Aragorns development in FotR. Many criticize PJ's Aragorn in FotR without looking at his development. Indeed, I'd argue that his words to Boromir are a big step forward for him: "I will not let the White City fall, nor our people fail." The second thing you have to remember is that PJ will no doubt further develop him in RotK. I surely cannot imagine Aragorn becoming King right away in RotK, but neither can I imagine PJ doing this. I assume that PJ will take plenty of time to fully develop Aragorn in RotK, moreso then he already is. I believe Aragorns greatest developments so far in the two films have been 1) Boromirs death, and 2) His words to Legolas at Helms Deep. Indeed, a lot of Helms Deep shows Aragorn being with Men. Then, at one point, Legolas argues with him that 300 cannot defeat 10,000, and that they are all going to die. To this Aragorn replies, "Then I will die as one of them." Then we get the scene between him and the boy, using the sword. And there are smaller moments... Aragorn suggesting that Theoden call for help from Gondor, him charging forward with the King of Rohan.

I can think of plenty of scenes in RotK that will help bring Aragorn to his peak. The Palantir (I assume), the Paths of the Dead, reforging and accepting Anduril, going through and "liberating" Gondor... PJ will not make light of this, I am fairly certain.

[aragil]

I also voted 'adequate'. I agree with you about the scenes which you mention- I might also add his words with Gandalf before Gandalf leaves in search of Eomer, and also somewhat the flashbacks regarding Arwen and Elrond. I'll even mention that it was nice changing his line with Eomer (now we draw swords together) to having it be with Theoden- we're seeing him as coeval with a King.
However I couldn't give it the highest mark- I never got the goosebumps I got concerning him in the first movie. Scenes like him putting on Boromir's greaves, and especially your favorite- the switch from "I wouldn't take the Ring within a hundred leagues of your city" to "I won't let the White City fall, nor our people fade. These caliber of scenes were missing, and they could have been there. I still think that when he's by himself and travelling to Helm's Deep- that was the time to really let him grow. Would have made that scene where he opens the doors at Helm's Deep so much more significant, IMO ...

[Talimon]

Well, we'll see what PJ does on the EE and in RotK. Personally I rather him become King in RotK, not before it. I rather him finish his development in that film, and if the development is big then all the better. Considering the location of TTT (Rohan), and considering who the battle is against (Saruman), I don't think too much emphasis should have been put on this. Maybe a scene or two, but thats it. I rather see his tale finish in RotK. Considering what PJ has done with his charachter thus far, I don't think I'll be dissapointed.

[PRH]

I don't know how to vote since none of the options really reflects my feelings.

I just put my finger on it - Aragorn grew into kingship role in FOTR inwardly, through his changing attitude toward the idea. In TTT, Aragorn's kingship-type qualities are on display; proving to us that he might do well in this position. Most importantly we see he leadership and at Helm's Deep (although he was really only leading the elves and Gimli). We also see much of his caring for the little people ("I will die as one of them," "it's a good sword," "can't the women and children get out of the caves?," that sort of thing). We see mercy where mercy was undeserved in the case of Grima. The thought of asking Gondor for help showed hope in men. Riding out with Theoden and the drawing swords line puts him on par with a king, as you guys have said. His attitudes and qualities were on display, but he didn't change his mind about anything. Maybe that's okay. I'm sure they got a game plan.

I too believe that Aragorn's alone time was wasted in terms of growth.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Talimon
I assume that PJ will take plenty of time to fully develop Aragorn in RotK, moreso then he already is. I believe Aragorns greatest developments so far in the two films have been 1) Boromirs death, and 2) His words to Legolas at Helms Deep. Indeed, a lot of Helms Deep shows Aragorn being with Men. Then, at one point, Legolas argues with him that 300 cannot defeat 10,000, and that they are all going to die. To this Aragorn replies, "Then I will die as one of them." Then we get the scene between him and the boy, using the sword. And there are smaller moments... Aragorn suggesting that Theoden call for help from Gondor, him charging forward with the King of Rohan.

To begin with, "PJ" doesn't have "plenty of time" for anything. With all that he left out of TTT to make room for his endless battle scene, he's going to have to move full throttle in ROTK even without SoS. That means that a lot of what we think (hope?) will be in that film will end up in the EE - if anywhere at all. Consider: Saruman, although trapped in Orthanc, has yet to be overcome (which happened in TTT). Gandalf has yet to acquire the palantir (which happened in TTT) and therefore neither Pippin nor Aragorn have looked within it (which happened in TTT). Which means that neither Gandalf nor Pippin have set out for Minas Tirith and Aragorn has not claimed the palantir, overcome Sauron and learned of the threat from the coast nor set out upon the Paths of the Dead (all of which happened in TTT). Frankly, since the Corsairs have never been mentioned, I doubt that Jackson will develop the plot line of a threat to the coast, so Paths of the Dead is out unless he takes the time to develop some other reason for Aragorn to go that way. And, of course, meanwhile we will have the HUGE battle scene before Minas Tirith - not to mention the confrontation before the Black Gates! So unless Mr. Jackson contemplates yet a fourth film, he's not going to have much time to develop Aragorn the slacker into Aragorn the King.

As for Aragorn speaking of dying as "one of them", well, he IS "one of them" Aragorn is a man; the option to be an elf has never been offered to him since it doesn't exist. Furthermore, he is not a "man of Rohan, but of Gondor, so his declaration cannot in any way be considered as a "step forward" in his journey to the Crown. Admittedly, his oath to Boromir could be considered in that light - or, alternatively, it could simply be seen as a promise to fight for Gondor in her defense in Boromir's place. There is nothing openly spoken about stepping forward to assume his duties as King.

Interestingly enough, Jackson's Aragorn does not care enough about his lineage to marry and produce an heir with a woman of his own people whom we must assume are around someplace even though none have appeared at least so far in the film. Nonetheless, as the film's Aragorn is apparently not nearly as anxious to marry Arwen as was the book's Aragorn, there should have been nothing stopping him from marrying and insuring the continuance of the line. But, of course, he has not - and that is another indication of his disinterest in his heritage. The only reason Tolkien's Aragorn has not married and produced an heir is his love for Arwen and his hope of their eventual marriage. Nonetheless, he carries a very heavy burden of the knowledge that his love might doom the line of Elendil if he never fulfills Elrond's caveat which would permit their union.

[Phee]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
As for Aragorn speaking of dying as "one of them", well, he IS "one of them" Aragorn is a man; the option to be an elf has never been offered to him since it doesn't exist.

We're not talking about genetics here, we're talking about the guy's state of mind. In the EE, we saw the scene on the riverbank where Boromir tried to convince Aragorn that Men really aren't all that bad. By the end of that movie, Aragorn had obviously started to see Boromir's point of view, as demonstrated by the "nor our people fail" line. In TTT, he's at the point where he now does believe there's honour to be found in the race of Men, because he passionately states that he's willing to "die as one of them". If that isn't some kind of character progression, then I don't know what is.

In TTT, I saw a more confident Aragorn. An Aragorn who now fully realises the importance of what he is to become. An Aragorn who is willing to accept that challenge.

I don't know that I'd classify his progression as "brilliant" though, so I'm voting for adequate. But that's good enough for me, because as Talimon suggested, I'd rather see his development into 100% King material actually happen in RotK. :)

[Talimon]

First and foremost, MM, you have a few details off. Aragorn claiming the Palantir, confronting Sauron, and going off on the Paths of the Dead are all in the book RotK, not TTT. The corsairs are never mentioned prior to Aragorn using the Palantir (which is in RotK), and he only sees them in the Palantir itself.

PJ has only left the following events to RotK that he has not covered in TTT:

-The scenes at Isengard.

-The scenes at Cirith Ungol/Shelobs Lair.

That is essentially it. Also, lets not forget that RotK is considerably shorter then both the other books (remember, the Appendices don't count). Now I am not denying that there are other scenes to be included (Gollums transformation, Narsil reforged), but I don't think these scenes will add so much that PJ won't manage it. The meat of this story, at least in part, will have to be Aragorn becoming king (the title is, after all, Return of the King). If PJ doesn't spend time here I don't know where he will.

I am no film-maker, but just to use rough estimates this is how I see the story breaking down:

-Scenes at Isengard.... 7-10 minutes

-Cirith Ungol/Shelobs Lair...... 10-15 minutes

-Minas Tirith (Muster of Rohan/siege)..... 30-40 minutes

-Minas Tirith (battle)..... 20 minutes

-Aragorn Development (Narsil/Palantir/Eowyn/Paths of Dead).... 30 minutes

-Frodo/Sam to Mt. Doom..... 20-30 minutes

-Last Debate/Black Gates open....15 minutes

-Epilogue (Arwen/Aragorn, Faramir/Eowyn, Grey Havens)..... 20 minutes

-Miscellanious (Gollum transformation, etc.)....5-10 minutes


Unless I did some wrong math that works out more or less to 180 minutes. This is of course assuming that is the length of the film. Rumours have been going around that it might actually approach the 3 1/2 hour range, but I'm just assuming it does not.

[Valdarmyr]

The thought that comes to me is that there are many kinds of kings, and while certain personality traits are required to be king, or for any one of us men to act in a kingly manner toward our world whenever it's required (but not in an egotistical, superior way), every king is unique. I'm only just starting to read the books, but I feel the Aragorn of the movie TTT is increasingly translating his knowledge that he is an heir to the throne into the way he lives, despite the understated, inner way Viggo is largely playing the transformation.

I agree with you all on the various ways he has been more energetic and king-like. I, too, think of his opening the large doors to Theoden's chambers and talking with him largely as an equal, it seems to me, while still respecting Theoden's territory...his moments with the boy before the battle...and his valiant "never say die" attitude in the face of great odds before and during the Battle of Helm's Deep...leaping into the throng of the enemy after the Elven "war lord" was killed (if he in fact was killed in the movie...I'm not up on all the background), though this last move on Aragorn's part was more warrior-like, though good kings do need good warrior energy. Can't wait to read the book ROTK and see what happens with Aragorn and all, though I've heard hints! A neophite among you learned Tolkien folk, but one who is eager to join in the quest!

[lilhobo]

there was development??? speeches are not development if they dont come from the mouth of the same person lol


Aragorn started like a man on fire, (well the Nazguls were :D) and then he just fizzled out.

if he left all this out:

quote :
----------------
PJ has only left the following events to RotK that he has not covered in TTT:

-The scenes at Isengard.

-The scenes at Cirith Ungol/Shelobs Lair.

-------------

why the heck did he have to add all the **** about wargs and oliphants?

that took away from the ents and the great helm's deep battle!

PJ could have got some suspense to end the second part, if Frodo was done in by shelob but NO

just another bland narrative-filled BS from sama again !

[Aragorns_girl00]

aragorn is entirely the CUTEST character in the whole movie!!!!! sorry, i can't handle my feelings of him in here.....

[lilhobo]

NOpe, i aint PJ but i fear this will be his intention!

30 minute of Aragorn dreaming of Arwen sucking on his face, and she appears with Narsil (UNEXPLAINED)

30 min of legolas looking indignant again and doing some kung fu/staeboarding stunt, with gimli running out of dwarf jokes, going back to being grumpy

30 min of the Nazguls whooping around here there and everyhwere in NZ lanscape (OFCOURSE)

30 min of the pelennor fields, with ARAGORN defeating the NAzgul king of course!! :eek:

30 min of Sam/frodo/gollum doing their menage-a-trois

10 min of galadriel mouthing some lines from Treebeard

10min of frodo looking distraight in his big blue eyes

10 min of sam giving an epilogue of pure BS about good wining over evil !

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by lilhobo
NOpe, i aint PJ but i fear this will be his intention!

30 minute of Aragorn dreaming of Arwen sucking on his face, and she appears with Narsil (UNEXPLAINED)

30 min of legolas looking indignant again and doing some kung fu/staeboarding stunt, with gimli running out of dwarf jokes, going back to being grumpy

30 min of the Nazguls whooping around here there and everyhwere in NZ lanscape (OFCOURSE)

30 min of the pelennor fields, with ARAGORN defeating the NAzgul king of course!! :eek:

30 min of Sam/frodo/gollum doing their menage-a-trois

10 min of galadriel mouthing some lines from Treebeard

10min of frodo looking distraight in his big blue eyes

10 min of sam giving an epilogue of pure BS about good wining over evil !

Dear me! And I am called "unsympathetic" to Mr. Jackson's "interpretation" of the story! It would appear that I am the soul of conciliation given the above!

I fear that it is now time to do with TTT what I finally did with FOTR and admit that, since there is nothing I can do about it nor do my carefully considered criticisms seem to garner much more than the usual responses: [a] it's the same as the book; [b] it's better than the book; [c] they had to do it that way because it's a film; [c] quitchernitpickin&whining; [d] all of the above - that I say a fond farewell to my career as a film critic! What's done is done and it is senseless to continue to flog a dead equine.

Have fun! ;)

[Nóm]

his opening the large doors to Theoden's chambers and talking with him largely as an equal...
Exactly. No other men spoke with Theoden the way that Aragorn did.
To begin with, "PJ" doesn't have "plenty of time" for anything.
He has plenty of time to do the things that he thinks are important enough to have time spent on them.
Wouldn't you say that plenty of time was spent on the cavetroll for example, or better still: that plenty of time was spent on Boromir's death.
It's a matter of what PJ's priorities are, and I think Aragorn will be one of them... oh I just get that ridicluous idea from the fact that he spent a good amont of time on Aragorn and Arwen, and that Aragorn has been a major charactor so far, not to mention other things that show that the fight of men against evil is a major part of his movie so there is little doubt that the victory of men is something that PJ will consider a priority.

PJ has plenty of time some things, just not plenty of time for everything - therefore it is not true that he 'doesn't have plenty of time for anything'.

[hastygirl]

I voted adequate, as I just finished reading TTT for the first time and there was a LOT for PJ to work through, trying to give Aragorn's character so much depth. I reserve final comment til I can analyze the whole trilogy in wondrous 9 hour DVD lushness (whenever that may be), but I think PJ did what he good with the time he had. Maybe there are some cut scene gems that do more to strengthen Aragorn's character we haven't seen yet.

[Aragorns_girl00]

i loved aragorn's role

[Longshanks]

Aragorn's development as a potential king must be measured against the only other king we've seen in the film series; Theoden. As Film Aragorn is different from Book Aragorn, so is Theoden. Book Theoden was portrayed as the perfect "old" king, once he was cured by Gandalf. Wearing a long white beard, but still strong enough to sit a horse and eager to swing a sword. he is ready to fight to save the Mark. Film Theoden is very reluctant to go to war, even at Gandalf and Aragorn's urging. This allows Aragorn to appear more agressive and more kingly in relation to Theoden, something that is not nessasary in the books. In a film, there is much more competition between characters, even characters on the same side. As the "Action Hero" of the piece, Aragorn should come off as THE Alpha Male, even among other Alpha Males. Theoden being less agressive makes Aragorn seem stronger in comparison and more fit for the eventual role of "king". Aragorn is therefore seen as less of a usurper of Theoden's status as king figure even though Aragorn will be mounting Gondor's throne. Thus, Aragorn has grown in kingly potential, commanding in war and achieving victory in a large battle. As Theoden reminds Aragorn before the Battle of Helm's Deep, Theoden is King of Rohan, but after the battle, Aragorn has had a taste of what it's like to be a king. He has glimpsed his destiny and is ready to fulfill it. Aragorn is ready to take his heritage in hand and do what he must to save his people and claim his kingdom. Aragorn knows his time has come. He is ready to be king.