Unfinished Tales... it's place

[Elendil]

Unfinished Tales was published before the twelve volumes of History of Middle-Earth. The 12 volumes are roughly chronological through Tolkien's life. They start with his youth and continue through LOTR and the polishing up of the Sil.

My question is where do the stories in Unfinished Tales fit chronologically in Tolkien's life? Should the book best be read in between two of the HofME volumes? Or do the stories come from many different periods?

[Tulkas]

I don't know, but the more frequent posters might know.

I would guess that they would be towards the end because they are "unfinished". Although he still could have just stoped on something.

But if you are looking for fact I've just got opinion.

[Telchar]

In tolkiens life? Hard to say.. Cian, do you know anything about it?

[Cian]

The Gondolin (partial) tale given is "likely" about 1951 ... LotR "finished" (CT) but not published.

re: Disaster of the Gladden Fields:

"This is a 'late' narrative - by which I mean no more, in the absence of any indication of precise date, than that it belongs in the final period of my father's writing on Middle-earth. together with 'Cirion and Eorl', 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen', 'The Drúedain', and the philological essays excerpted in 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn', rather than to the time of the publication of The Lord of the Rings and the years following it." Christopher Tolkien

Descrip of Númenor (selections) probably written not long before 1965.

"But whereas the later 'long version' of Tuor never proceeded very far, my father carried the later 'long version' of Túrin much nearer completion. This is called Narn I Hîn Húrin ..."

These are not all of course, and this is only the "easy" explanation of some 'cause I've many more threads to read tonight :) just a taste, hope it helps.

A good old hardback UT should describe (in the Intro) all the texts given as best as Chris Tolkien could fathom them. Never glanced at a 'new' copy but assume the same (?) Cheers

Incidently Chris Tolkien purposely changed the Narn title, not wanting any mistaken "ch" sound as in English "church": the proper title reads (with mutation) Narn I Chîn Húrin

[Hama]

The Unfinished Tales were published in the seventies I believe, not too long after the Silmarillion came out. Both were edited by Christopher Tolkien. I might be wrong on some of these facts, but I'll try and recollect what I had read about them. Neither the Silmarillion nor the Unfinished Tales are from a certain time period of Tolkien's writings, but are from vast quantities of notes and scribbles which he left from various points of his life. For example some of the parts of the tale of Gondolin which appear in UT were written when Tolkien was serving in the army. Similarly in the HoME series, the younger Tolkien tries to take all that his father wrote about middle earth and put it in a historical format. There is very little if any chronological relationship between these books and UT. The reason UT is unfinished, is that it goes into more details about certain tales of the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and LOTR that Christopher Tolkien feels needed more development. The HoME books were a later addition to these. Don't quote me on any of this, as I don't have any of my tolkien books at hand except for the Silmarillion and the LoTR.

[Cian]

As said, the Gondolin start given in UT is an "entirely refashioned account", very likely dated to 1951.

With this example for instance, one could relate it "chronologically" to certain other texts: we have the general timing of: 'completion' of the Lord of the Rings ... also, JRRT working on the new version of the Lay of Leithian in 1950, ... and JRRT noted he had revised the Quenta Silmarillion as far as the end of the tale of Beren and Lúthien on 10 May 1951.

A general remark from Christopher Tolkien also relates that little of the work begun "at that time" was completed ~ referring (at least here) to the new
Lay of Leithian, the new tale of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, the Grey Annals (of Beleriand), and a revision of Quenta Silmarillion.

Thus a fair chronology is generally established with this example, based on Christopher Tolkiens knowledge or deductions.

[Elendil]

Thanks Cian,

We can then generally say that the works are from the 50s and 60s and date after LOTR. Right? This puts them closer to the last volumes of HofME. It would therefore not be inappropriate to read UT after volumes 10,11, and 12 of the Histories rather than reading it first.

[Cian]

We might indeed Star-friend (or Elf-friend :))

I've read (from somewhere [?] on the web) an "overview" account of UT that generally put the texts concerned between the 1950s to the early 1970's (allowing for detail). The account included some "probably's" and conjecture iirc, regarding certain texts.

I'm too lazy to cross reference those I have yet to mention specifically ;):rolleyes:;) but I remember the web account as a fairly 'trusted' source, likely using the UT intro.

[Tulkas]

And another thing about the UT. Shoud I read UT or HoME first?

[Elendil]

Originally posted by Tulkas
And another thing about the UT. Shoud I read UT or HoME first?

Basically, that's what I was asking, and if you look up a couple posts you will see that I answered that for myself. Certainly if you own UT, don't wait to read all 12 volumes of HofME. You can always read it again when you finish them.

[Hama]

If you've been growing up with Tolkien's work, I suggest the following order:
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
The Silmarillion
The Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle Earth books
Squeeze in Tolkien's non-middle earth books in somewhere if you can. I highly recommend Farmer Giles of Ham. Rivaled the Hobbit as a story when I was growing up.

[Maerbenn]

Originally posted by Hama
The Unfinished Tales were published in the seventies I believe, not too long after the Silmarillion came out. Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth was published for the first time by George Allen & Unwin on October 2nd, 1980. :)

[Goldberry]

Originally posted by Hama
If you've been growing up with Tolkien's work, I suggest the following order:
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
The Silmarillion
The Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle Earth books
Squeeze in Tolkien's non-middle earth books in somewhere if you can. I highly recommend Farmer Giles of Ham. Rivaled the Hobbit as a story when I was growing up.

I think this is an excellent order to read the books. Nice work, Hama!

[gilgalad]

Originally posted by Hama
If you've been growing up with Tolkien's work, I suggest the following order:
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
The Silmarillion
The Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle Earth books
Squeeze in Tolkien's non-middle earth books in somewhere if you can. I highly recommend Farmer Giles of Ham. Rivaled the Hobbit as a story when I was growing up.

I would suggest reading UT in conjuntion with the Silmarillion. That's what i did last time i read them and found that i came out with a much fuller knowledge than i did when i read them separately

[Mirabella]

Originally posted by Hama
If you've been growing up with Tolkien's work, I suggest the following order:
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
The Silmarillion
The Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle Earth books
Squeeze in Tolkien's non-middle earth books in somewhere if you can. I highly recommend Farmer Giles of Ham. Rivaled the Hobbit as a story when I was growing up.

I just got Unfinished Tales, so glad to know I'm going about it in the right order ;)

[Celebithil]

I would suggest reading UT in conjuntion with the Silmarillion. That's what i did last time i read them and found that i came out with a much fuller knowledge than i did when i read them separately

I have also found this to work quite well.

[lindil]

You could either read it in conjunction with the Silmarillion see

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002217

or after depending on your goals.

If you have never read either the Silm or UT then the above mentioned list [ with Hobbit at the top and UT and then HoME at the end] is generall recommended on most boards I have seen.

Alos many people get bogged down with HoME 1-3 and the LotR sections esp 6-8, So if you love the stuff in UT then the final three Volumes may be more to your taste, especially as they contain the majority of the things ommited from CJRT's 'The Silmarillion' that might have ended up there if JRRT had lived to finish it.

[gilgalad]

An awful lot of people will never read HoME because they think it is a waste of time, just outlines of the LoTR. Thats what i've found from experience anyway. These people miss out big time as some of the less well realised, yet still very interesting and worthwhile, topics are dealt with in HoME.

[Melko Belcha]

I would place Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin and the Narn I Hin Hurin in The War of the Jewels, HoME XI, since XI deals with the post LOTR writings of The Sil after the rising of the sun.

A Description of the Island of Numenor, and The Line of Elros I would either place in Sauron Defeated, HoME IX, or in The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME XII, since they could fit into the later writings of Numenor or the LOTR Appendix.

The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Cirion and Eorl, The Hunt for the Ring, The Battle of the Fields of Isen, The Druedain, The Istari, and The Palantiri I would put in HoME XII, because they all could fit under either the LOTR Appendix or Late Writings.

The Quest of Erebor I would put in HoME IX, since it was editied out of LOTR.

[GuardianRanger]

Originally posted by Hama
If you've been growing up with Tolkien's work, I suggest the following order:
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
The Silmarillion
The Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle Earth books
Squeeze in Tolkien's non-middle earth books in somewhere if you can. I highly recommend Farmer Giles of Ham. Rivaled the Hobbit as a story when I was growing up.

I think that is a great order. I've just finished reading The Silmarillion and I'm in the middle of The Atlas of Middle Earth. I think I'm going to read Unfinished Tales, and then both Letters and Humphrey's bio before I start over again. When I start over, I'm reading Annotaded Hobbit first.

[Thomas Baggins]

Hmm interesting Gaurdian Ranger I read UT first and I'm reading The Sil right now. How did you like the Sil, I recomend it highly it is an excelent book no matter when you read it, but you probobly should after The Sil.

[GuardianRanger]

Absolutely love it! As I've said in other posts.....I liked it much more than I thought I would. Yes, it was tough to digest; and I know I'll read it again. But I learned a lot, enjoyed the stories, and was awakened to some of the back stories to Lord Of The Rings. I'm looking forward to Unfinished Tales.

[gilgalad]

I thought the Sil was better than LoTR. It seemed when i read it like Tolkien was writing what he really wanted to, whereas the LoTr, while a fantastic book, just didn't feel like he had the same enthusiasm for what he was writing.

[Ancalagon]

Lindil, the link provided does not seem to work...can you amend it?

[lindil]

Ancalagon, thnaks for the notice on the link, which has for the moment [at least from my computer] been fixed.

[Ancalagon]

As it has on mine..was it always working? Like your avatar btw;)

[lindil]

Thanks, A it took a lot of searching and tinkering to get working.

As for the link, it was working for me when I first posted it. But when i checked it before editing it was not. As it was the same link, but would not work if 'nested'.

I have edited the thread not in 'enhanced mode, now that I think about it, I just noticed that option.

Anyway, enjoy while the link works!