Speculating Plot Changes For ROTK BASED ON TTT

[Bucky]

OK, I may be jumping the gun a bit, but based on what we saw in TTT, like Faramir the Jerk, I can see some hints at what's to come that won't exactly be bringing praise from The Purists. And let's face it, to some degree, we all have some purist in us here.......

So, without further adieu.......

Aragorn falls for Eowyn because he thinks Arwen has sailed across the sea to 'The Undying Lands'

The Paths Of The Dead will be elminated & Elrond & Arwen will be the ones who show up to save the day in The Battle Of The Pelannor Fields. Elrond can't be as big a jerk for the next movie, it's a setup.

Theodan will balk at sending any of the 69 men at his disposal (joke there) to aid Gondor. Remember the "there's been enough death" & "Where was Gondor when the Westfold was over run?" comments?

Will Theodan, Aragorn, Gandalf et all go to Gondor together & all be in the siege? Remember, Theodan ALREADY gave the speech he gives prior to the charge of the Rohirrim at Pelannor fields in TTT before they charge out of the door. Humm........


Now, on just speculation:

Will Gandalf go to Isengard & cast Saruman from The Order? Or, based on what we've seen so far, more likely, kill Saruman?

Will the Orcs of Cirith Ungol capture Frodo?

Is there a pyre waiting for Denethor?

Will Sam EVER get skinny like most starving people? ;)

BTW, PLEASE, if you KNOW the answers by spy reports, keep this spoiler free.

[Bucky]

Boy, that was quick. Big Brother moved this thread to here in about 14 seconds...... :eek:

BTW, You can be sure that Arwen or Elrond will be showing up with the reforged Narsil/Anduril.

[Wynston]

I wouldn't mind Elrond or Arwen showing up with Narsil, nor them or a whole contingent of Elves being there for Pelannor. What would stick in my craw will be if Aragorn doesn't somehow come in to save the day. It will kind of ruin what he said to Boromir at the end of FoTR "I know not what strength is in my blood, but I swear to you I will not let the white city fall" Now that can mean a lot of things, but it would make it much less dramatic if he was just there participating in the battle, instead of coming in at the last minute to save the day.

[Calimehtar]

PJ better not change the story that much. Eowyn should go with Faramir, Arwen with Aragorn. I will let Elves come to Gondor and fight since it happened in TTT. And Aragorn should go through the Pass of the Dead or whatever, because that helps show Aragorns right to the thrown, being able to command the guys that betrayed Gondor back in the 1st or 2nd age. But I think Frodo will be captured, because I know that he will meet Shelob. Gollum was saying "She will get him, not me" or something like that near the end of TTT.

[Ghan-buri-ghan]

Frankly, based on what we saw in TTT, I CANNOT IMAGINE Eowyn falling for a clown like Faramir. Nope nope nope.

Narsil/Anduril has gotta get to Aragorn somehow, and Arwen is my bet.

There will only be ONE battle RotK, and it will be in Pelennor fields.

Paths of the Dead? Maybe, maybe not.

Hey, think Merry or Pippen will join Rohan or Gondor? Based on their development so far, don't think so!

[Celebthôl]

k i gotta protest, at the end of TTT Faramir does turn good,

Faramir: I believe we understand each other now Frodo Baggins

or sumthing like that, then he lets him go i think he did change

Thôl

[Bucky]

I agree that Faramir will turn from bad guy to good guy quicker than Stone Cold Steve Austin did in the WWE. ;)

>>>>>PJ better not change the story that much. Eowyn should go with Faramir, Arwen with Aragorn.

There has to be a reason that Aragorn was shown to believe that Arwen is heading to the 'undying Lands' as they called them.

Eowyn falling for Aragorn is a must, but I can most definitely see a scenario where Aragorn has feelings for Eowyn & Arwen shows up.


I will let Elves come to Gondor and fight since it happened in TTT.

Garunteed. Remember Haldir when he shows up: "I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell bidding you to remember in the past Elves & Men fought side by side. We come to honor that Alliance."
(Paraphrase)
Note Haldir said word came from Elrond, not his Lords, Galadriel & Celeborn.
I also have this feeling that Elrond is going to turn out to be noble & honorable in ROTK, not the arrogant jerk he's been for the last 2 flicks (aka movies for those under 40).
Plus, isn't it been long rumored that Arwen was filmed in fighting scenes? I believe Liv Tyler said that herself.....


>>>>>>And Aragorn should go through the Pass of the Dead or whatever, because that helps show Aragorns right to the thrown, being able to command the guys that betrayed Gondor back in the 1st or 2nd age.

I think PJ has distorted (or simplified) the 'No king in Gondor' story, making it seem like any 'proof' he should be king is unnecessary. Remember TFOR:

Legolas at The Council Of Elrond to Boromir: "He is no mere Man, he is Aragorn, son of Arathorn & you owe him your allegience." This is said as if EVERYONE & their sister knows who Aragorn is.

Also, in TFOR Elrond says to Gandalf "He (Aragorn) turned from that path (kingship) long ago."

And, The women & children of Rohan fled to Helm's Deep, not Dunharrow, so I bet it doesn't happen.

>>>>But I think Frodo will be captured, because I know that he will meet Shelob. Gollum was saying "She will get him, not me" or something like that near the end of TTT.

No doubt that Shelob is in there. PJ said long before TTT was out that Shelob would be in the third movie.

The reason I assume was because he wanted to have the victory at Helm's Deep be the climax to the 2nd movie, plus keep Frodo & Sam's fate up in the air as to whether Faramir would take them to Gondor until the end of this movie.

[Silnarion]

Bucky

You keep mispelling Theoden

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

And, The women & children of Rohan fled to Helm's Deep, not Dunharrow, so I bet it doesn't happen.

Considering that in TTT they mentioned a back exit through the mountains from the Glittering Caves (did anyone notice the glitter in the rock formations?) at Helm's Deep, and they could get more mileage out of that wonderful set, I think they will blend that exit with the Paths of the Dead. No need to bring up Dunharrow.

[Bucky]

Good point.
Makes sense.

That means Gandalf has to go to Orthanc & Grima has to throw the palantir at him - or T-H-E-O-D-E-N. ;)

I really thought the Ents might just kill Saruman at the end of TTT the way PJ was going.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

Well they have to go there anyway to pick up Merry and Pippin, so I suspect while they are at it, Grima will throw the Palantir, Pippin will pick it up, Gandalf will break Saruman's staff, then turn and grab the palantir from Pippin and give it to Aragorn. Then Gandalf will ride off with Pippin to keep him out of trouble, and the rest will leave afterwards, turning around at the last minute to see Saruman fall from his tower at the hands of Grima. Aragorn will put Merry under Theoden's care and depart from them. At Helm's deep, _______ (fill in the blank) will show up with Anduril reforged and furled in a banner. Then, before passing thru the caves at Helm's Deep, Aragorn will reveal himself and sword to Sauron. maybe some ghosts will show up in the tunnels, but I think the POTD will be downgraded. But they will all merge back at Pelennor with perfect timing and plenty of extra troops. (Just my suspicions)

[PRH]

I don't think this counts as spoiler, since it's analysis from a trailer:

For what it's worth, Merry will pledge his service to Theoden at Edoras. This is shown in the Lord of the Rings preview trailer which came out in January 2001 (not the internet preview). If you don't have a copy of this trailer on your computer (and don't want to look online for it), it's on the Theaterical Edition of the FOTR DVD, disc 2, as "teaser one."

[Fimbrethil]

Paths of the dead will happen, although I think Viggo has interpretated that sequence in a rather different way.

In total film (british version), in an interview he mentioned that Aragorn has "the power to raise the dead". Or very similar words to that effect.

Aragorn raising the dead on the fields of pelannor, or raising the corpses that lie in the dead marshes instead...perhaps?

One way or another, I think the actor has at least done scenes where he raises soldiers from the dead. The nature of that scene is very open to speculation though.

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

Sounds creepy. I hope this doesn't turn out to be a horror flick.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Fimbrethil
Paths of the dead will happen, although I think Viggo has interpretated that sequence in a rather different way.

In total film (british version), in an interview he mentioned that Aragorn has "the power to raise the dead". Or very similar words to that effect.

Aragorn raising the dead on the fields of pelannor, or raising the corpses that lie in the dead marshes instead...perhaps?

One way or another, I think the actor has at least done scenes where he raises soldiers from the dead. The nature of that scene is very open to speculation though.
If I'm not mistaken, Viggo's words were "power to summon the dead," which is quite different from "power to raise the dead." I think this rules out the dead on Pelennor. However, your Dead Marshes theory is quite interesting, since we see those spirits under the water.

[Nóm]

The problem with the idea of him summoning those of the dead marshes is that he would have to do that at a different point in time because of the location of the marshes. The best time for that to happen would be on the way to the black gate, but he would have to continue north, passing by the gate and this action would not serve the purpose of playing decoy, which is the whole reason for going to the black gate.

One purpose of the paths of the dead is that it allows for the surprise arrival of Aragorn, without taking this (or some other) alternate path into Mias Tirith there will be no surpise.

I see no reason that PJ would have Aragorn summon the dead of the marshes unless Aragorn will somehow do it from afar and the paths of the dead are out.

[Saille]

I don't think Aragorn will fall for Eowyn. in TTT there was no indication that his thoughts drifted far from Arwen. Plus the wedding scene would be a good scene for ROTK. The Scouring of the Shire probably won't happen because people won't want to see hobbits fall. Which leads to Saururman's death at Grimli's hands-won't happoen. I would love to see the scene of the paths of the dead and I think that would be a good FX opportunity for PJ. The only battle will occur in Pellenor Fields. I have no bets how Saururman dies but he will not redeem himself and return to Valinor. Maybe Treebeard will get him. It is also guaranteed in the last scene of TTT that Shelob and Frodo meet. Gollum had said as much without saying her name. Arwen will be the one to bring Narsil. In my humble opinion... but we'll have to wait a year to see.

[Fimbrethil]

You are quite right PRH :) I didn't have the magazine with me, so I had only my admittedly faultly memory to recall from >_<

Do you think PJ will take the time to have them sailing up the Anduin from Pelagir?

[PRH]

Originally posted by Fimbrethil
Do you think PJ will take the time to have them sailing up the Anduin from Pelagir?
I could see Aragorn showing up with the Dead to win the day on Pelennor, rather than using them at Pelagir. Though this may repeat the Helm's Deep victory too closely. I don't know!

[Calimehtar]

The Scouring of the Shire: I think that they could have atleast had Fatty Bolger or some other friendly hobbit talking to Frodo and the other 3 and say something about strange men coming and tearing down lots and trees and stuff. And make up something to have run them out or something... even if it isn't Pippen and Merry saving the Shire, I'd atleast like something to show that even the Shire wasn't safe from Mordor and Evil.

The Death of Saruman: Maybe Grima could kill him while Saruman is still in Orthanc. Though, if they had went the way I said up there, maybe Saruman could be living in Bag End all secret-like. Then when the 4 hobbits come, he reveals himself. And it shows that seen of Saruman trying to stab Frodo and Grima killing Saruman.

The Scene Going Up the River to Gondor: If they did this, it could be a very brief scene of Legolas looking out from the front of the ship and see smoke rising in the distance and the sky a kind of red-pink in the sunset.

[Leto]

based on what we already know or suspect from interviews, and from seeing TTT...

Theoden, I think, will have to be convinced to go to Gondor's aid. The action result will be the same...Riders breaking the seige...but getting there will have different character interaction.

I think it's a pretty sure bet that Arwen will arrive with Anduril (and the banner, hopefully). Arwen, I think will also bring message from her father (I hope Elrond doesn't show up himself) to 'remember the paths of the dead'. This might occur at Helm's Deep, either before or after they have been to Isengard...it will definately occur somewhere that Eowyn will see it. Her heart will be broken, and she'll go into 'fey' mode. Arwen, I think, will leave...back to Rivendell. Then the scene from the book where Eowyn tries to go with Aragorn, and he denies her, will be all the more bitter (though some of that dialogue has already been spent, I think). I think he will be accompanied by whatever elves are left from Helm's Deep.

Saruman will be killed at Isengard, somehow. I suspect Grima might do it, knocking him off the balcony...possibly falling to his death himself. Grima's tear in TTT, at realising that Saruman might actually succeed in wiping out Rohan, is a clue that he has remorse now for his treachery. He was looking out for himself, but never actually thought that all his people could be destroyed. Aragorn's mercy in sparing Grima from Theoden paralell's Frodo's mercy to Gollum, with similar effect. Gandalf, I think, will just go in the tower afterwards and take the palantir. (since he already knows about, unlike in the book).

I don't know how Denethor's madness will be handled, and Faramir. since Faramir is already at Osgiliath, I don't think Faramir will return to Minas Tirith to tell Denethor about Frodo, then go back to Osgiliath only to retreat back to the city later and get wounded. The two flights will be combined...the Nazgul and the army from Osgiliath chasing Faramir and his company across the field...Gandalf will ride out and shoot his fire at the Nazgul, after Faramir is wounded and they're about to get him. Denethor will resolve to have him 'put to death', the penalty for letting Frodo go...and something will happen where he will end up burning himself. hopefully as close to the book as possible. :)

Frodo and Sam's tale will hopefully be close to the books. The orcs marching, and the argument at the crossroads might be left out. After they leave Cirith Ungol, they will head straight for the mountain, I think.

The last big change, I think, will be gollum...in the end, something will have to happen to cause him to fall, or jump, into the fire. He won't just dance around and then slip in. Perhaps Smeagol gains the upper hand again, at last, and feeling Sauron's gaze so close, he will leap in to save the precious from 'Him'. Or Smeagol will trick gollum, somehow...they will argue until they fall in. Maybe the ledge is collapsing, or something.

We know for sure that the scouring of the shire is out. Most of the trip home will be cut out as well, I imagine. Aragorn will be crowned, get married to Arwen, then the hobbits will say 'lets go home'. they say goodbye to everybody, and next scene they are back in Hobbiton. (possibly stopping by Bree first, to see Bill the pony :) he was named in FOTR, so I hope we see him again) Maybe then a sort of montage, with narration, showing Sam getting married, merry and pippin being 'big', and Frodo being sick. Then Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and Bilbo arrive...and we have the Grey Havens...probably not much different than it is in the book. Sam goes home and says 'Well, I'm back'. The End.

:) we can only hope the changes will be this 'tame'.

[JoS Metadi]

I have lots of little questions, but the big thing I'm wondering about is whether or not Frodo is going to die due to the foreshadowing in TTT.

JoS

[Saille]

Remember in the movie, Frodo already has forseen the scouring of the shire while in Lothlorien. So my bet is they already had filmed the scene and we will see it in it ROTK. I hope so anyway.

[Leto]

*sigh* No. There is no scouring of the shire in the movie. What he saw in the mirror was much worse than the scouring of the shire, it was orcs killing and enslaving hobbits, and burning the shire. It was what would happen if the quest fails.

It has been plainly stated by PJ and the other movie makers that it was left out of the script...that little vision in the mirror is closest we'll get.

[Saille]

sigh....it was just a flash. I was hoping he wouldn't mess with ROTK. Chalk it up to wishful thinking.

[Ariana Undomiel]

I personally would rather not do speculations about the final film until trailers and more pictures are released. I do think that there is one thing that we can safely bet on. Either Arwen or Elrond will get Narsil to Aragorn some way or another. My mom thinks that Elrond will show up to fight in the final battle because he feels the need to help in the final battle because he was there in the first one. I don't think I agree with that, but I think Arwen just might show up at the battle, not to fight but to bring Aragorn the one thing that will give him his final strength as the heir of Elendil and Isildur. I actually saw a picture of her once travelling upon Asfoloth rather dirty and travel stained, but I don't know if it was something that was an original idea and then was cut.

- Ariana

[King Aragorn]

It's very funny to read the first post, while knowing that nearly all of it was put into ROTK.

OK, I may be jumping the gun a bit, but based on what we saw in TTT, like Faramir the Jerk, I can see some hints at what's to come that won't exactly be bringing praise from The Purists. And let's face it, to some degree, we all have some purist in us here.......

So, without further adieu.......

Aragorn falls for Eowyn because he thinks Arwen has sailed across the sea to 'The Undying Lands'

The Paths Of The Dead will be elminated & Elrond & Arwen will be the ones who show up to save the day in The Battle Of The Pelannor Fields. Elrond can't be as big a jerk for the next movie, it's a setup.

Theodan will balk at sending any of the 69 men at his disposal (joke there) to aid Gondor. Remember the "there's been enough death" & "Where was Gondor when the Westfold was over run?" comments?

Will Theodan, Aragorn, Gandalf et all go to Gondor together & all be in the siege? Remember, Theodan ALREADY gave the speech he gives prior to the charge of the Rohirrim at Pelannor fields in TTT before they charge out of the door. Humm........


Now, on just speculation:

Will Gandalf go to Isengard & cast Saruman from The Order? Or, based on what we've seen so far, more likely, kill Saruman?

Will the Orcs of Cirith Ungol capture Frodo?

Is there a pyre waiting for Denethor?

Will Sam EVER get skinny like most starving people?

Just about all of that was in ROTK. I know for a fact that the Saruman sequence will be in the EE.