Constitution of Heren Istarion

[Anamatar IV]

By request of Elu Thingol (;)) here is a thread for Grand Council members only (but of course I am currently still in the GC since Galdor's idea has not taken full shape yet;)) to discuss policies, laws, rights, and how the government will work in Heren Istarion.:)

EDIT: The Grand Council will be making the decisions but if any other members have any suggestions please post them.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Well, before anything else occurs, we need to solidify the 'constitution'. All members who have seen it need post a simple agree or disagree. A simple majority will not be enough to rule on the constitution, so I say that we need anywhere from three-quarters to a full vote.

[Anamatar IV]

I have a question for all guild members:

Do we want Heren Istarion to be a republic or a democracy? Im not talking political parties. If we are a republic then a selected individual will represent a group of people. If it is a democracy every individual has a say.

An example for a republic is USA (the states decide the president, not the people).

[Rasec]

I think a Democracy on Heren Istarion is better. Thouh I think a Republic works better for countries, for guilds I strongly recommend that everyone must share opinions and has the right to take part on decisions.

See you all soon,
'Rasec.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I think that the form of government which Galdor outlined is what we should follow -- it is not exactly a democracy. Anamatar, I think that you should post it here so that everyone can see where we are heading from.

[Anamatar IV]

Originally sent by Galdor:

Ok, in my plan there will be three different branches of Gov.
1) The Grand Council: it will consist of ten members out of the HI. Everything in the GC will be decided by a majority vote. All GC members will be equal in power, but one GC member will be elected as the GCs speaker.
2) The Guild Leader: this of course will be Anamatar. In my plan he will not be in the GC, but rather in his own branch of Gov.
3) I don't have a name for this one yet but here's how it will work. This branch of Gov. will be used only when it is really needed, and it will be more powerful then both Anamatar and the GC. It will only be used when a decision must be made and Anamatar and the GC will not cooperate with each other, my hope therefore, is that it will never have to be used. It will consist of a GC member elected by the GC, Anamatar, and a normal HI member elected by all of the other normal HI members. As with the GC any decision it makes will be by majority.

Neither Anamatar nor the GC has more power then the other, so here is how proceedings between them will work. Ok, let’s say that the GC has come up with an idea that they want to use, here is what will happen.
The spokesmen for the GC will present the idea to Anamatar, after Anamatar has looked it over, he can either veto it, or approve it and send it back to the GC as is, or with changes that he thinks must be made before he will accept it. If he vetoes it, then that is the end of the story, if he sends it back to the GC, then the GC will once again go over it, and then make the final vote on whether to use the idea or not.

Now, if Anamatar comes up with an idea that he want to use, then here is what will happen. Anamatar will present the idea to the GC, the GC will go over it, and either veto it, or approve it and send it back to Anamatar as is, or with whatever changes they think must be made before they will except it. If they veto it, then that is then end of the story, but if they approve it and send it back, then Anamatar will go over it once more, and he will make the final decision on whether or not to use it.

If one side has a grievance, like if Anamatar vetoes something, and the GC thinks he did it only because the GC came up with the idea and not him or whatever, then that is when the third branch of the Gov. will come in. They will take whatever the issue at hand is, look it over and make the final vote on it. Whatever they decide is completely undisputable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By this idea I (Anamatar:rolleyes: ) will not be in the Grand Council but rather in an entire other branch of government.

There would also be another branch of government, seldom used, to be the one who solves disputes and such, yet I do not know where we will find people for this branch...

Currently HI is a republic-the Grand Council votes on things. The other guild members dont have a say. How will all guild members get a say in Galdor's idea?

[FREEDOM!]

Can i join the Guild???? Please???

[Nenya Evenstar]

I am sure you can, Freedom. :D I hope you enjoy!

How will all guild members get a say in Galdor's idea? I do not think they should. I think that a Republic is the way to go for a guild. A full-fledged Democracy would be far too complicated. There should be leaders who stand out for the well-fare of the guild members, not leaders who comprise the entire guild.

So there are going to be four branches of government? Anamatar, the Grand Council, the branch to solve disputes between Anamatar and the GC, and the branch to solve little disputes? Why don't we just combine the latter two branches?

[Anamatar IV]

hmm...I dont think a republic would work. Galdor suggested 10 members in the GC (that number will change...I'll tell you later), the leader branch, and (I am suggesting) 3 in the new branch. This will leave at least half the population of HI without a say. The majority of the guild would just be watching the world spin around them. They would feel as extras in the guild instead of a part of it. I think there should be a rubric or something for votes:

regular member: vote=1
GC member: vote=2
Leader: vote=3
New Branch members will count as regular members until a dispute arises. Then they will have complete power over all until the dispute is solved.

EDIT-Could we put a hold on this thread until I get back? That'll be on Friday so just if you have ideas write them down. I dont want to miss anything during my absence.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Just read it, Anamatar ;) Yes, we'll put a hold on it, but I have to say this:

I think that if we have a Democracy where everyone has a say we will get absolutely nothing accomplished. We will have to wait for the general public to vote on issues that they probably could care even less about. If you want the public to have a say in the government then why don't we have a branch which represents the normal member's interests? Their job could be to simply bring requests from the public to the GC where the requests would either be accepted or shot down. I think that we need a set and assured leadership in this guild. With the normal people having equal say I don't think we'll get anywhere. That is what the leadership is for.

[Anamatar IV]

If you'd have read my rubric;) you would know that the regular members wouldnt get a say the same as the government.

There wouldnt be a vote on number of people but rather points. For every regular member vote it will get 1 point, every GC vote 2, and every one of my vote is 3 points.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

GREAT idea Nenya! I agree-- a democracy would be too confusing. And Galdor's idea is great too, but it has elements of a republic too, so I think his idea is more of a republic, which is GOOD.

Plus, I believe there is one more spot on the GC, and I was wondering who it may go to... because you know... I am pretty active on this guild and I have some good ideas a lot, so yeah, you may want to consider me. That is, IF there is a spot left.

I am OK with the idea of a seperate class for us normals to bring up ideas but to vote, naahh. We dont need to vote, thats what the GC is for. Plus, you alos have to consider how many normal people there are that actually post often. Hmmm... that would be: me, HGLStrider, Rasec, Phenix.... I think thats it! I am fine with the GC and Anamatar ruling our lives as usual.

And the third secret branch is a good idea as well. I hope a feud like the one in the past never happens again.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

The grand council represents the rest of the guild. That was it's orriginal purpose. It has people from the orriginal HI and the White Council. The White Council members are there to keep the values that we have established alive, and the rest of you are here to work with your little guild.

Anamatar, the thrid branch was already outlined to have three members-
3) I don't have a name for this one yet but here's how it will work. This branch of Gov. will be used only when it is really needed, and it will be more powerful then both Anamatar and the GC. It will only be used when a decision must be made and Anamatar and the GC will not cooperate with each other, my hope therefore, is that it will never have to be used. It will consist of a GC member elected by the GC, Anamatar, and a normal HI member elected by all of the other normal HI members. As with the GC any decision it makes will be by majority.


The plan really calls for everything we need. And it is really pointless to add or take things away from it until it is tested. It cannot be tested until you all vote for it. So, go on and vote, I urge you.

And the answer to the republic/democracy question is best answered, IMO, in Nenya's first post. It is neither. There are no Romans, there are no Greeks, so why should we limit ourselves to their ways of government? This should be our plan.

[Phenix]

is sound like a good idea

[FREEDOM!]

Originally posted by Dáin Ironfoot I
I am OK with the idea of a seperate class for us normals to bring up ideas but to vote, naahh. We dont need to vote, thats what the GC is for. Plus, you alos have to consider how many normal people there are that actually post often. Hmmm... that would be: me, HGLStrider, Rasec, Phenix.... I think thats it! I am fine with the GC and Anamatar ruling our lives as usual.


Well see, i would post here but everything is closed down so i can't.:rolleyes: :mad:

[Nenya Evenstar]

Freedom, the threads will be opened as soon as the government can get some things worked out. I think that will be relitively soon. You can be assured that during this time we are simply doing things to the guild which will make it better in the long run.

[FREEDOM!]

K, i think i understand.:(

[Anamatar IV]

woah looks like you havent been waiting.;)

Dain, elgee isnt even in this guild:rolleyes: Dont worry about that spot yet.

Everyone: the guild is back open on January 3rd.

Back to business;)

I must have not read Galdor's pm carefully enough;)

I think it is a great plan here.

and Nenya, I am voting...on what Elessar told us to:p

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, then we are settled with this. Cesar has a very good idea that I think he will be posting sometime in the near future. I will be adding some of my own stuff with that.

I wanted to touch on this: The White Council members are there to keep the values that we have established alive, and the rest of you are here to work with your little guild.
Elessar, this sounds uncommonly like you are saying that you are not a part of "our little guild". I would actually like to see the White Council members become more active. We could really use their advice and support. :) You make it sound like you are here simply to keep values alive -- nothing more.

[Rasec]

Yes, I will post it now. Thank you, Nenya.
Anamatar, here it goes my addition to Galdor's idea:

Galdor's idea is great, of course. It HAS to be considered. But there's a little detail I'd like to add.
1) The GC should have 10 members (selected by Anamatar) - nice.
2) Anamatar would not be in the GC, but in a separate branch. - nice.
3) The third branch, *which I think could be called The Alternative Branch/Council, should have, in my opinion, three members* selected by the regular HI members, Anamatar and the GC. *For this, there should be a votation (with a determined time to finish). In this votation, the regular members cannot vote on themselves. The three selected shoud be the most active regular members of the Guild.* And yes, this branch would have the final decision if the GC and Anamatar don't come to an agreement. Exactly like Galdor exposed.
(The parts between asterisks * are the ones I added).

Being this way, I believe there will be no more problems in the Guild. We will be in peace and happiness forever.

--> Nenya's idea: We should have an election every two or three months to change the members of the third branch (which I gave the idea of being called The Alternative Branch/Council).

--> My addition to Nenya's idea: The elections would have to be organised in a way that all members could vote, but there would have to be a determined time to finish. We cannot wait late members to vote - it would take too long.

Well, hope that helps. If we were not supposed to post here yet, I apologize, Anamatar, but I could wait no longer.
See you all soon,
'Rasec.

[Anamatar IV]

Good, good...but didn't we already agree on that the new branch (that would have 3 members;)) would consist of me, 1 GC member, and 1 regular member elected by the regular members of HI?

*BTW-I think we would take the 3 or 4 most active members, put them in a poll and then vote.*

But Rasec let me ask you something.

Are you suggesting 2 new branches of 3 or 1 with only regular members?

[Rasec]

Maybe I misunderstood Galdor's idea. Forget what I said about Galdor and read my idea, which is not so different from his:

Organisation
There would be 3 branches - The Grand Council (ten members chosen by Anamatar), The Founder Branch (only Anamatar) and a third branch which I called The Alternative Council (three members chosen by the regular members, Anamatar and the GC - in this case, the votes of Anamatar and the members of the GC would count as two votes of regular members).

Functioning
When a decision is to be made, the Grand Council and Anamatar must work together. The Alternative Council will have no job in that case. If Anamatar and the GC don't come to a conclusion for a matter of discordance, then the final word is of The Alternative Council, whose members will decide wether to accept the GC's idea or Anamatar's idea. Or even create a more accpetable idea. If there is no discordance between the GC and Anamatar ever, then The Alternative Council will never be used. For that is the only use it has.
The first election for the members of The Alternative Council should be like Anamatar exposed, but with a little change by me: ALL regular members should be put on a poll for the election, and the determined time for the election should be one week. Of course that everyone must vote on the one they think is the most active in the Guild, but I ask you not to vote on yourself. Anamatar and the members of the GC must also vote. The three most voted will be the members of the AC.

Through Time
The members of The Alternative Council should be changed periodically. I think that there should be an election every two or three months to change the three members of this branch, in order to give every regular member a chance to have a say.
The members of the Grand Council will never be changed, save if a member decides or has to leave it - then, Anamatar should choose a regular member to replace him/her, judging by the members' level of activity in the Guild.

I think that's all. Well, it's just an idea. It can be wether accepted or not. I will be waiting for Anamatar's answer.

See you all,
'Rasec.

[Anamatar IV]

It's a great idea! But just to let everyone know, I will not be voting in the polls for who will be in the third branch. I will set up the poll once everyone agrees.

And once everyone agrees I think we can finally move onto the laws, policies, order of conduct and such of Heren Istarion.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

I am in agreement! Wonderful idea, Rasec! I will be voting. ;)

Yes, policies, laws, and the like sound like a refreshing topic! I only wish that more of our members would be active in this thread. Anamatar, why don't you PM all the members and let them know what is happening?

[Anamatar IV]

I think I will wait actually...I told all the members that HI would take a vacation untnil January 3rd...that they could still participate just wont be counted as inactive...

So by January 4th if the same number of people participate I will send out pms.

[Rasec]

Thank you both for agreeing!! I am very pleased to be of use, as you know. Well, I guess Anamatar is right - he has said that there would be a vacation for the members until January the 3rd, so the members do not owe their total attention to the Guild during this time. I hope that by January the 4th, everyone comes back and is very active. By the way, how many members do we have? And Anamatar, will you post the poll? I guess so...

Thank you again.
See you,
'Rasec.

[Anamatar IV]

when I make the poll I will make 5 or 6 options and a multiple choice voter thing. I want you to vote for 2 people...only 2. there will be an option that says 'Guild Leader-results' and this would be for me to vote on to see the results...I only want to see 1 vote in that section people.;)

[Phenix]

just one thing, I don't think that the members of the GC should be able to be in the third brach. but that's ofcourse just my opinion

[Anamatar IV]

oi. The one thing youre missing on that, Rasec;)

Heres how I think it should be done for the new branch:

2 GC members and 1 regular. For the vote I am telling all 2 vote for 2-the one with the most votes goes to the new branch, second most the GC, and we have 1 member with a pending membership. If they decide to join we agreed long ago that they would get the 10th GC spot.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Gosh am I confused! I thought that we already decided that the third branch was to be made up of simple guild members! :confused: Why would we put someone from the GC in the third branch? It would make things in that branch unfair. And why don't we just have a poll where people can vote for three people? Why can we only vote for two? :confused:

[Anamatar IV]

okay okay okay now I know what I was thinking. In fact I think we may need to vote for 4:

since I am leaving the GC that will be 8 and maybe 9 if that person decidesto join.

the top 3 in the poll go to the new branch the 4th one goes to the GC.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

wow...ok... Anam, dude, you have some great thoughts, you just seem to have a problem organising them. Once you type a post, I strongly suggest going back through and editing. Do a bit of cutting and pasting, so that it flows better. When you get excited my eyes tend to do cartwheels trying to keep up.

Ok... so... uh... the only problem I really see in what's been said recently, speaking from my own RPing experience, is the large-scale voting. In organazations where there are excessive members, or really more than five or six, who make up the deciding group there is often trouble. A full agreement never happens, and, often, a concensus is not good enough. While a poll may take out this aspect, it introduces another. From what I remember reading, there was someone who came into the first GC meeting and started to discuss his views on things already settled, correct? A 1 week poll would have a similar problem. People who did not see the poll, or people who 'forgot' to vote on it would still feel the need to be expressed. And we would end up with a virtual Florida voting scene. Right here in the forum. And, also, I'm not so sure that you can have an entire guild on a poll. There would be maybe 2 people with five or four votes, and everyone below that person would have 1, 2, or zero.

I'm not nessesarily saying to stay away from voting, I am just warning that it, like all other multi-party desicions, is a horrible, lumbering mess.

And, Nenya, let's just say that the council's been 'round the block a few times. This thing has barely got first base. The White Council members were, in the Role Playing glory days, some of the most powerful icons of the forum. The place is now wreched, compared to back then. I do beleive the only reason many of them merged was in search of change. ;)

And you will all find that my purposes change as quick and fluently as water flows. For now I am trying to see that this place doesn't fall face first like the first group did.

[FREEDOM!]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
*BTW-I think we would take the 3 or 4 most active members, put them in a poll and then vote.*



Well i want to be one of those people but i can't be active till January 3rd.

[Anamatar IV]

was there anything confusing?:p;)

Dont worry, FREEDOM!. I didnt mean you cant be active until that day I am just saying you wont be counted inactive until then.

But Elessar-tell me what you saw confusing or made you 'eyes do cartwheels' ;)

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

I have been reading the new posts everyday, but I havent replied because I am confused. Very confused. This is what I think is happening, but Im sure it is wrong:

1. 3 branches: 1 for Anamatar, 1 for the GC, and 1 for three members that can settle disputes. These three members compose of 1 Anamatar, 1 GC, and 1 ordinary. :confused:

2. These 3 branches can check and balance each other, similar to the US constitution (your first mistake :D j/k..allthough the French have an excellent gov. but thats besides the point)

3. Anamatar is not part of the GC

4. Us regulars get to vote on something? Like what exactly? I think the GC should take care of it all, and the regulars should follow... screw democracy!

5. Voting is a bad idea, and I agree with Elessar about the Florida similarity. Wow... that will be a mess.

-Im probably wrong and such, but this is what I have "determined" from this crazy thread. So many ideas and good ones I may add, but they are all jumbled and some contradict each other. I would REALLY like it if someone could post a full summary of what happened and what our new government is, or what it will be. I know there is a lot of different ideas out there, but I need someone to sort them out for me, and the rest of us, as Nenya so blantantly put it:
simple guild members

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Dáin Ironfoot I

1. These three members compose of 1 Anamatar, 1 GC, and 1 ordinary. :confused:


I thought this as well, hence my idea of 2 votes but apparently people want it all to be of regular members. For a summary read Rasec's last post.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Dain,
1. 3 branches: 1 for Anamatar, 1 for the GC, and 1 for three members that can settle disputes. These three members compose of 1 Anamatar, 1 GC, and 1 ordinary.
There will be three branches. One for Anamatar, one for the GC, and one for three members comprised of those "simple guild members".
2. These 3 branches can check and balance each other, similar to the US constitution (your first mistake j/k..allthough the French have an excellent gov. but thats besides the point) Correct. :D
3. Anamatar is not part of the GC Correct.
4. Us regulars get to vote on something? Like what exactly? I think the GC should take care of it all, and the regulars should follow... screw democracy!
The voting was to select the members of the third branch. I thought that it would be more fair if those in the third branch were selected by all the people, but it looks like that may change. Perhaps the GC and Anamatar should choose those people?

I really hope this helps. What it boils down to is that we have three branches of government. The Grand Council, Anamatar, and the Alternative Branch (three simple members). ;) That is all we have decided. What we are discussing now is how exactly to elect those three officials.

Elessar, I really, truly appreciate the time you are spending in this guild! May we, with your help, make it into what the White Council once was! Perhaps some of those "old days of glory" can yet be re-lived.

[Anamatar IV]

Hmmm now let's not get hasty!;) There are more then three officials that we need to decide on. There are the three for the new branch and with my leaving the GC we will need one there.

When I leave the GC it will be:

ILLOTRTM
ELu Thingol
Azog
Nenya
Galdor
Aerin
Elessar

Upon reading Mithrandir's post in the serious rp section (and several MSN chats) we can be sure that Mithrandir will no longer be in the guild. So in total we will need to select 6 average members.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Who elects who?

This is for the GC, no?

[Anamatar IV]

We will need to elect 6 (possibly 4...) for both the new branch and the GC. Meaning three to each. What we need to decide is how. I figure we have three options:

To take the 6 (or 4...) most active members.
To hold a *current* GC council (over AIM this time) about it.
To hold a guild vote

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

O la la! I understand now.

Sounds like a great idea Anamatar, long live AIM! :D

Umm... so I guess we are waiting till the 3rd, no?

[Rasec]

Nenya is the only one here who undertands my purposes. Yes, Nenya, everything you answered to Dáin is correct. Exactly!!
I have a few questions to answer, though I thought my post before the last one was VERY WELL explained. If you're still confused after this post, try to take a look at that. It satrts with "Maybe I misunderstood..."

Originally posted by Elessar:
In organazations where there are excessive members, or really more than five or six, who make up the deciding group there is often trouble.
That's why I proposed the Alternative Council - read the post I wrote over here.

Originally posted by Elessar:
There would be maybe 2 people with five or four votes, and everyone below that person would have 1, 2, or zero.
I fear you're right, Elessar. There is not enough people to vote.

People. The whole thing is very easy. I repeat: read my post in which I explain everything clearly. (I start with "Maybe I misunderstood...")

Anamatar, I think we can have a Grand Council with 7 members and let us just decide now the three ones that will be in the AC. Well, once Elessar is right about the votation, the best thing is to let the GC and you decide who will them be. If you really think ther emust be 10 people in the GC, then decide who will the 6 people be. I guess you have to make a debate on January the 4th.

See you,
'Rasec.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I agree with Rasec. Why does the GC have to have ten members? Things are complicated already with the number of members we have. Adding three more will only increase the havoc of our meetings. I suggest we simply elect three officials for the third branch of government and leave it at that. I feel that in order to reduce the problems that would arise with a poll, the GC should elect these three members.

[Anamatar IV]

Well the original idea according to Galdor's plan was to have 10 members in the GC.:rolleyes: ;)

But we can have 7...or maybe 9...

Whose decision would it be to decide who goes into the AC? The *current* GC? Me?

[Rasec]

Both. Anamatar, you could choose one and the GC could choose two. What do you think?

EDITED: Galdor, do you mind if the Grand Council has only 7 members? Well, it could have 8 to be an even number. *Don't like odd numbers* LoL. Then we could choose only one new member for the GC, in order to be easier, quicker and better. Thanks.

'Rasec.

[Anamatar IV]

It has been decided what to do about the Grand Council-but by request of several members of the *current* GC it will be kept secret. For *current* GC members who do not know and who wish to know PM me.

Something that will not be secret:
I am sure everyone will agree that this is the fairest system for the AC-the 3 most active members will get the position.

Now onto the next step of the constitution:

Laws, regulations, policies, and the such...

[Nenya Evenstar]

Laws, regulations, policies, and the such...
Well, to start off with we need to first know what exactly needs laws and regulations. Anamatar, I believe that is your part....

[Anamatar IV]

right.:o

There need to be laws on spam and definetly magical overuse. Laws for disagreements that may arise, laws especially for the GC and I if we disagree. There need to be regulations on conduct, rp posts, and behavior towards trainers...

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Sorry about making you post another summary, I must have skipped Rasec's earlier post. That sucks that he wont be around anymore :( .

Anyways, to start the ball or whatever, concerning arguments:
Should they be posted on the normal thread or restricted to PM's? I only bring this up because after that last argument some things were posted like "he cussed at me" and such, and that kinda brought down the maturity and overall peaceful aura this guild had (well it has it again, but for a while things were looking pretty bleak).

Also, another point about spam. I think we should make a definition about spam (I know there is one on the FAQ) but pertaining to RPing and such. Sometimes if there is a convo of sorts in a thread, discussion thread, whatever.. a one word answer (oui ou non) is all thats required. Maybe we can make a set of rules on when and when not to use spam?

Just a few points to think about...

[Anamatar IV]

Here are the previous rules and punishments:

Rules:
If you are a wizard in RPs you are not permitted to overuse your magic. It is up to me to decide if you are overusing your powers.


Spamming will be punished by both the mods and myself. Heren Istarion will not accept it.

There will be rules in the first post of the training threads. The way the rules for the training threads work are:
You get 3 strikes. 2 chances to get away scotch free from breaking a rule and after the 3rd breech you will start your training over from THE START (apprentice).

Punishment:
The Grand Council has the ability to punish any person or persons at any time. But first they must bring up the issue and what they would have as a punishment in the Grand Council. In the Training threads the instructors have power of punishment WITHOUT permission from the high council. They may only punish persons for actions in the training procedure and may NOT give out punishment worse than 1 DAY SUSPENSION OF HEREN ISTARION. That punishment is to be used only in SEVERE cases. The High Wizard may punish anyone for anything that he/she thinks the persons deserves.

~~~~~PUNISHMENTS MAY NOT BE APPEALED BY ANYONE AFTER THE DESCISION HAS BEEN MADE~~~~

[Nenya Evenstar]

I really don't know that we need too many rules about spam. I think pretty much everyone knows what spamming is.

The High Wizard may punish anyone for anything that he/she thinks the persons deserves.
this needs to change. Too much of the "dictator" here.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

The High Wizard may punish anyone for anything that he/she thinks the persons deserves.

Its also very vague and can be interpreted in many ways. Who's to say what someone deserves? If a person is punished, and the GC disagrees somewhat, theres gonna be another argument.

Maybe there can be something like: 1st degree spam, 2nd degree spam, 3rd degree spam (3rd degree being the highest) and the same degrees for other offenses such as magic overuse, killing characters, RP disagreements, uncooperativeness, or whatever. There can then be the same punishment for each "degree" For instance:

1st degree punishment = PM telling what happened and what needs to change. Temporary and VERY short ban from HI

2nd degree punishment (also applies for a repeated offense, like if someone spams a 2nd time)= PM telling what happened and what needs to change . Temporary ban from HI, warned if it happens again you will be sent back to apprenticeship

3rd degree punishment (also applies for a repeated offense, like if someone spams a 3rd time) = PM telling what happened and sent back to apprenticeship. GC members (meeting or not depending on severity of issue) discuss what needs to happen next to prevent another offense. This will reduce arguments by providing people with the opportunity to voice their opinions. Also an Admin should warn the offender.

4th degree :eek: = PM to an Administrator, BIG warning sent from Admin, permanent ban from HI

[Anamatar IV]

yes that high wizards thing was well before the heren istarion change occured. I think the degree thing works great. Much like my 3 strike policy but alot harsher;) I dont like the softness of the 3 strike one.;)

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

as an addition, for the third degree, further action can be taken in order to prevent the 4th degree. If that means more punishments, then so be it, but there has to be an agreement by the GC or whoever attends the meeting. If the GC has beef with the offender, then he/she needs to attend the meeting to input his/her opinion. If they dont come, then they wont be represented, that simple. That way there wont be arguments if someone didnt get what they wanted.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

I have really no care for the Spam rule, so I will not debate on the topic.

I shall agree with everything set forth on the basic organization.

On Magical Overuse. Very touchy topic. Very. There can be no definition for the offense, only precedents. Becuase of Magic's varried flexablity, overuse can mean one thing to someone and something quite the contrary to another. For instance, if the Arch-Heliomancer, who happens to be Emporer Ciryaher, were to call for the sun to not rise on a certain day, it would be acceptable. But, if, say, a basic wizard were to attempt such a feat, not only would his power not have the credit nor the strength to support it, but it would seriously disrupt an RP. Also, only Tolkienic magic is usually alowed. There are no fireballs, or calling down lightning bolts to strike down John Doe from the corner of the Tavern. It's simply stupid. Magic in RPs should be used seriously, and often in large amounts. But it is only suitable if it fits Tolkien and is for the betterment of the storyline.

Now, did that rambling make any sense? Any at all?

[Anamatar IV]

well let's rest on the topic of Magical Overuse for a while. Elessar the way you are describing it is quite easy...if this were the wizards guild. We have one wizard in Heren Istarion (aside from the two former WC members) and the way it was decided was that that wizard would have just about all the powers. So how would we judge magical overuse here?

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

I agree with Elessar. No Ice Shields, fire balls, lightning bolts and the such. This one wizard (Nenya?) shouldnt be able to have such magical poweress, its not Tolkienish or MEish at all. Not even the Valar had such powers, only Illuvatar. Instead the Valar and the Maiar (the Wizards) could do beautiful, spell casting, creation sorts of things, if you catch my drift. For instance, Gandalf could not shoot fireballs or create flame walls, but he could make himself stronger and taller with the power of flame.

I think magic should be on a more interpretive level. For instance a Elf with the power of "water" (not that there is one) could use her powers to make herself more beautiful and restore energy, similar to the element of water. Likewise a wizard of wind could make himself more wise and quick, like the air. I hope this makes sense...

I dont think there is room for such magical mayhem in HI, its not Tolkienish at all. Tolkien didnt even emply the use of magic, as we can see with Galadriel's mirror when the hobbits asked Galadriel to show them some "magic". She had no idea what they were talking about, because there is no magic in ME. The closest thing to "magic" was an essence of the Valar if you will (such as in Gandalf and Sauron), and the Elven rings. Even then, these things did not cause earth-shattering effects at all, they merely mimicked the element the ring was in the surronding environments.

In my opinion, I think any type of magic in this guild is overuse. Its just not Tolkien, and that is what we are trying to recreate. As Galadriel put it:

'And you?' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deciets of the Enemy.'

[Anamatar IV]

But that is not the issue at hand. We understand what magical overuse is but we dont know how to bring that to our one Gran Wizard (Phenix). Following Elessar's example a supreme wizard of that division could do something extreme yet a lesser couldnt-how do we decide what can and cant be done for wizards.

Take a break from rules and such we have an important topic to get to: wizard powers. What our wizard can and cannot do.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

But I just stated what the Wizard should and should not be able to do... he shouldnt be able to do much at all. No volcanoes, hurricanes, fireballs from the heavens.

The "magic" if thats what its to be called, should be more of an artistic thing. A beautiful, interpretive, imaginative thing. Fire = strength and courage, water = beauty and eternal power, Air = wisdom and agility, etc. I think he/she should use the elements to do creative things such as "strengthing spirit" and "restore morale", if you catch my drift

A wizard with these powers should make them into creative spells, resisting the urge to call frozen orbs and lightning dragons. But if the wizards would want to create a shield of some sort (like Gandalf did with the Balrog, properly called a "block" or counter curse) weather change, telepathy; thats all fine I guess, but I still dont think it to be Tolkien.

I guess no one agrees with my opinion, so Ill let you all discuss it, but I just wanted to let everyone know my opinion, if its understandable. But whatever is decided I wont make a big stink, I go with the flow!

[Anamatar IV]

well in Lord of the Rings the magic was subtle yet not *that* subtle. Saruman used his magic to cross breed orcs and men (supposedly). Gandalf collapsed a bridge. He sprouted green blue fire from his staff. He created light in Moria. Dont forget that Gandalf's remarkable fireworks used magic. Saruman manilpulated many with his voice. As a guild we need to decide magic suitable for our wizard. It needs to be specific...obviously we cant sprout hundreds of dragons from the wand or create a ditch right infront of legions of our enemies but it cant be limited to petty things like shedding light.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

You have a point... I had forgotten those things. You are right, but I'm not convinced I am wrong. I still think magic should be more of a spiritual essence type thing, but I guess I have been shown up by Tolkien himself. GRRR

So are we gonna have just one wizard or will there be levels of wizards?

[Ecthelion]

I think the wizards should have levels of power. The higher level you are the better the spells you can do are. The best spell wont be a huge overwhelming powerful spell, but should be fairly strong, whereas the first level would have, minor spells. Just my input.

[Anamatar IV]

But there are gonna be no more wizards. There is one wizard and that's all. We arent taking anymoer so there cant be levels. We *used* to have all wizards and classes and levels and powers but that wont work...dont ask why, dont opt for us to bring that back, just be content with that will never happen again.

[Ecthelion]

Oh. Well in that case I think the wizard should be quite strong considering shes the only one.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

OK OK calm down...

Hmm this wizard (phenix) should be able to do anything a White Wizard could do, but that isnt fully described in the book so much...

1. Able to communicate with anything or anyone in ME, including birds, beasts, and even the language of ME itself (earth, fire, water, and air; even plants)

2. Uses a staff to conjure spells and the like, without his staff, he is next to powerless.

3. Telepathic, mind control, and telekinetic ability, but not like Yoda or anything; he cant lift a Troll for example...

4. Spells used to strengthen himself and others around him; water used to restore health (maybe a rain cloud of restoration) fire to strengthen spirit (flames of passion that could shine in their eyes like the wrath of the Valar) earth to strengthen armor and weapons (rocks from the ground clinging to the warriors like a Golem), and stuff like that. Earth can be primarily defense, fire is offense, water is restoration, and air is wisdom. Botta bing botta boom

5. Cannot control the strong willed or strong-minded easily, they have to work for it!

6. Adding to #1, using his language skills he can persuade the objects to do what he asks, that would be COOL! Like, he could talk to the flame commanding it to turn into the shape of a flaming arrow, something of the like. In short, the wizard has power over things in ME because he can speak its language, liek Gandalf and Shadowfax...

[Anamatar IV]

Dain, THAT is magical overuse:rolleyes:

That really is much too much/

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Well you made me into a monster! THe thing about me is I am the extremes, either none at all or waaaay too much! Hmmm... maybe like this:

1. The language thing is cool. That is true though, the Wizards could speak the language of anything in ME. I think the wizard commanding the object to do something would be fine, and thats exactly what gandalf did (i.e. the horse on the flood)

2. the staff thing is OK

3. Scratch the telepathic ****

4. I still think the magic should be more of an interpretive thing, but I guess I went too far... maybe just scratch this all together

5. errr... scratch this one too

6. no flaming arrows, just commanding things to do minor stuff

And if you look at the Evil people threads, I cant think of the name, they can summon volcanoes and huge storms and earthquakes, and we have to fight them? Hmmm.... how can we?

[Anamatar IV]

Here is how:

we lift a spear and we impale them on it. If any bad dude raised a volcanoe and killed hundreds of troops with it Cir would be on him in a flash. It is an rp rule to not be able to do that.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Just look:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5191

[Ecthelion]

They dont use magic anymore. And even if some still do they are just as minor as we are, I was a Necromancer and I know they have rules just like we do.

[Ecthelion]

Originally posted by snaga1

THE NEXT TWO LEVELS ARE ILLUSTRATRATIVE - THERE ARE NOT GOING TO BE LOTS OF MAIA AND VALAR RUNNING AROUND - THIS IS HERE TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU CAN'T DO!!

Level 4 is Maia

- Causing volcanoes to erupt, regional weather control, creation of rings of power etc etc

Level 5 is Valar

This would include creating mountain ranges, creating volcanoes, creating new classes of life, conferring immortality, wide-scale weather control etc…
[/B]
Those rules only apply if your character on the forum is a Valar or Maia which are very few.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

OK, that makes sense now. I was just trying to make our wizard to be able to compete with a Maia or Vala, but since they dont exist now...

1. Wizard can speak the language of all things in ME, if he can control them or not, thats to be decided/discussed. I got this idea from the whole Gandalf/Shadowfax thing, but also Aragorn and his listening to the stone. That was kinda like listening to it talk I thought

2. Without his staff hes no good

3. No spells except kindling fire, light and darkness, and MINOR weather change (like rain and wind patterns, temperature change, but NO BLIZZARDS maybe some mist...)

4. Power to pewrsuade like Saruman, but only the weak minded

5. Some kind of foreshadowing maybe?

Look what youve done Anamatar, Im a magic totig freak! :p O well, see if thats too much magic...

[Anamatar IV]

Dain, Dain, Dain.:) Don't trouble yourself too much with this. Wait until tomorrow so more membes can have input.

A staff is just to channel a wizards magic in lotr.

And youre giving them too little now.:p But as I said...wait.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

FINE! :) I'll wait! But I STILL think magic should be my first idea, like Galadriel's "magic" in Tolkien's books. i don't know Nenya very well, but I think shed agree with me, but I dont know why! :p Just a feeling... she seems Galadriel-ish to me...

OK I'll shut up now.

[Nenya Evenstar]

:eek: Are you telepathic or what? :eek: Galadriel is my favorite character and I'll defend her to no end! I have been applauding your stance on magic ever since I read your first post on the subject! This was something I was going to bring up -- ask Azog. I gave him a whole speach one day about how I feel the whole "magic" issue is terrible. It is un-Tolkienish. I feel that the way magic is used is wrong. Everyone treats it just like that -- magic! There is no "magic" in Tolkien's world, only different races possessing different qualities.

And please, Dain, do not shut up! You are giving wonderful advice! And now, as Heren Istarion's counselor, I counsel you all to listen to what Dain has to say! He is speaking of magic as it should be. I hate the term "magic" in RP profiles, and you will never see that term in any profile that I give. So, please consider Dain's first post on this issue! It was wonderful! I believe that Dain is trying to say that the magic should be subtle, but in that subtlety it can be used in grand ways -- like to make tree tops burst into flame. Those powers can exist, but more subtley than something called a "spell". And I believe that we should completely take out the element of "magic" in all other characters. There should NOT be any other mention of these types of forces except in the wizards. They are the only ones who are able to light fires and perform miracles. Elves and the like have more subtle things which should not be termed as magic. Also, telepathy is not something that should be taken out. In the end of ROTK Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf, and other elves had an entire conversation through telepathy. Why can't we just copy the "magic" that is in the books? What is so hard about that? Oh... and I guess I won't go into the whole thing which says that I'd like to rid all Tolkien forums of wizards. :rolleyes: But I would. After the War of the Ring all of the Istari (which were the wizards) disappeared and no more were ever seen again on Middle-earth. But that is a pet-peeve that I have with Tolkien forums that I will unfortunately never be able to win. :(

Now, about the punishment. I think Dain's idea is great, except I think that if someone spams once they should simply be warned. Only if they continue spamming should they have a short ban. So I just think we need to add one more level.

And Dain, do you have MSN?

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Wow Nenya, SOMEONE that agrees avec moi!

Yea, just disregard the other posts, I was just trying to please Anamatar..:D

And I prefer AIM (heebzz), but I have MSN but I cant get it to work? Can you help me?

[Anamatar IV]

Yes, I must be pleased;)

Nenya, I agree with what you said but still that is not the same as pushing rocks up from the ground or making fire appear in the form of an arrow:p;)

But do you really want to chuck the wizard class all together? It certainly can be done but what does the guild think of that?

[¤-Elessar-¤]

please, everyone. To save ourselves time, the powers issue was solved long ago. If you would just read over this page...

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=3137

The White Wizards, now numbering only Aerin and myself, had all of the listed powers, but the majority of our strength was in our own color. I am Grey. Aerin is blue, I beleive. These are what I shall stand by, they are as tolkienish as it can get, while still keeping some spirit of creativity and enjoyment alive. What problems do you see here?

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Yea the whole flaming arrow thing... that was just trying to be more magical then I was being... its not how I want the magic to be though

I thought magic should have been as it is in my first post, so why do you agree with Nenya now, as her idea is the same as mine was?

Anyways, screw the wizard class I'm thinking. WE dont need one.

[Anamatar IV]

so Elessar *if we keep the wizard* (I personally wouldnt mind chucking it but really it is up to our wizard to decide) then he would be like a white wizard...yet with minor sorts of those powers?

[¤-Elessar-¤]

well, I don't think it should be a class. You can't really teach someone to have the qualities that we want in a wizard. However, the wizards of the forum are all dying out, they are all resigning, or leaving. It's getting pretty damn serious.

I think that it should work on an invitation type of buisness. Whenever the already existing wizards agree that someone seems as though they would make an excellent wizard, that person is considered for an open post, if there are any.

We could use the already-existing wizarding colors of the White Council. Minus the color yellow, which was added on at a later time for the part of a character named Dain Ironfoot, which is another story.

That is my proposal, that wizards are only gained by personal invite. It isn't quite fair, but it is much easier to organize, and much easier to control. There's nothing worse than something you cannot control.

*Anam- He would have to be assigned a color, preferably by Aerin and myself.*

[Anamatar IV]

Is there a real problem with just one wizard?;)

*okay, you and Elessar can assign the colors but would the wizard be a white wizard? Like you are white grey wizard or whatnot.;)

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Yes, he'll be the 'white of x', where x is his color. But he can't get a color now, not until Aerin and I do some discussing.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Elessar, I think it very fitting that you keep all things concerned with wizards under your control. After all, that is one of the things you are wishing to protect. However, it is going to mean a lot of extra work on your part. If you are going to be on the look-out for people with wizard-like qualities, then you will have to keep up with the Heren Istarion training process in order to find those individuals. Or, perhaps the trainers should keep their eyes open and when they see a possible candidate they could notify you of their thoughts? Then you or Aerin could track that person's posts and make your decision.

Also, if we decide on this course of action, then I think that those who have claims on being a wizard should no longer have those claims. I think that we should start at square one. No wizards until Elessar or Aerin see some potential candidate.

[Anamatar IV]

But we cant make a decision until we actually get some input from *the wizard*. He may very well be looking forward to being a wizard and it'd be heart wrenching to take it away from him...maybe.

[Nenya Evenstar]

This situation has been taken care of, for those inquisitive ears who wish to know. ;)

[Phenix]

well this is a reall mess right...okay I've desided that even doh I did looked forward to be a wizard I "resign" from thepost... just give me some time to deside wha new class I will be...

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

The MSN messengar was fixed....

my new name is Nain_Francais@hotmail.com (it means French Dwarf :D )

[Anamatar IV]

Dain...that handle is different from the one in your profile.:D;)

Which one is for msn messenger?

[¤-Elessar-¤]

alright, in case anyone is still feeling vague about magical overuse, or mis-use, which is a far better word, please read over these threads. RP 20 was spawned from RP 15, but I wan't you to notice the post quality between the two, and the way magic is used. Those are the things that define a good and bad RP. I picked these two as examples because 20 was by far my favorite of any RP i've ever posted in. (no offense intended to anyone who posted in RP 15, i'm sure you've grown since then)

RP 20-
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=2091&perpage=15&pagenumber=19

RP 15-
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=1832&perpage=15&pagenumber=31

[Anamatar IV]

Great examples, Elessar. I believe that this "knot in the rope" is done and we can move on. We are still not done with rules believe it or not. We have punishments down...but we need rules and policies...for the guild, for in rps, and for in IM councils.

[Ecthelion]

Oh what an Rp number 15 was. Those were the god old days, but man I sucked at Rping then, actually that was my first Rp:) I'm glad it's still here.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

funny, Nain. I thought you might feel like that.

[Ecthelion]

When it comes to magical overuse I was probably the one who overused it most:D I think almost every post I used magic. But hey I had fun:cool:

[Phenix]

by the way, nenya, what exacly did you mean with " This situation has been taken care of"

[Nenya Evenstar]

by the way, nenya, what exacly did you mean with " This situation has been taken care of"
:D I just meant that it was no longer something we should be discussing here because everything had been resolved about the matter.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, time to move on to another aspect of the government! Here is my proposal on how the GC meetings should work:

During the meetings, I think that the floor should be open for all to express their opinions at all times. However, if someone has something quite important to say and cannot get it out because of a constant barrage of IM's, then he should say, "HALT," and everyone will stop talking. The person can say what he needs to say, and the conversation can resume after the starter says, "END." There of course should be some guidelines which are only too obvious:

- Stay on topic
- Be respectful of the other members and listen to what they are saying
- Do not get angry
- Be specific -- if someone is confused, make sure that you explain your idea more thoroughly
- Use common sense :rolleyes:

I cannot think of anymore at the moment. I think that it would be wise for those who are introducing new ideas to the council to have already prepared something that can be read by the rest of the members. However, if the idea is short enough then no preparation will be needed. I think that first and foremost all we need in this area is organization, cooperation, and common sense. All problems should be solved. :)

[Anamatar IV]

"HALT," and everyone will stop talking. The person can say what he needs to say, and the conversation can resume after the starter says, "END."

I think that'll work better than my 'I' and '...' ;);):D

I think those guidlines are good...but then again it IS the Gc's decision since I wont be in those councils any longer.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I think that'll work better than my 'I' and '...'
;)
Glad you like them! So, you are not going to participate in any of the GC meetings? :confused: Do you meet with yourself? I think you should still be a part of the meetings or else you will never get a say in matters. Your Grand Council will simply overrun you.

[Anamatar IV]

forum vote/reasoning:

Guild leader in GC meetings or not

[Nenya Evenstar]

Yes, the Guild Leader should be in the GC meetings. If he is not he will never get a say in the greater matters discussed and will only be able to suggest ideas. The GC will have a monopoly over the leader, and thus more power. The two should balance each other out, not have differing degrees of influence. If Anamatar is not in the GC meetings, then I forsee conflicts arising due to Anamatar not being satisfied with a decision that is made. However, if he is in the meeting the conflict can be resolved right then and there. The form of government would be a lot less complicated and decisions would take a lot less time. :)

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Yay, the Guild leader should attend those GC meetings, for the reasons Nenya hath stated.

We wouldnt want the Senate to overrun the good ole Geroge W, now would we?

[Ecthelion]

Hey since we have an alliance can you guys vote for us in Guild Auction #2 so we can have our own guild space. The poll is in the Member Announcments under the title Guild Auction #2. Hope youvote, thanks.

-~Ecthelion~-

[¤-Elessar-¤]

so... wait... are the GC meatings in the forum, or are they on AIM or something?

[Anamatar IV]

This is the 2nd announcment of this by a Ranger also in Heren Istarion-I do not want all these advertisements. So please-tell the Rangers not to post another here. Thank you.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Elessar, the meetings have been on MSN in the past. It is a rather complicated setting, however, and I think we should start using the White Council board for our meetings. After all, wasn't that what it was for? To be changed into the Grand Council?

[¤-Elessar-¤]

well, if they are going to be on MSN, I kindof need to know. I don't have it on my comp, so I'd have to download it.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I will let you know when we have our next meeting. I do not think we will be having any more on MSN, however, because there can only be five people to a conversation. So, we may have them on AIM. :)

[Anamatar IV]

We wont have them on MSN anymore...we just cant.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, what next, Anamatar? What else needs decided? Shall we start using the White Council forum and begin to discuss the training system?

[Anamatar IV]

No...because we havent finished on rules.:rolleyes:

We only have punishments and rules on magical overuse and meetings.

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Aren't the threads supposed to be opened today?

[Anamatar IV]

*sigh* Yes they are. I will pm Anc and such and they should be open soon.:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

Ok, Anamatar, could you please be more specific? What other rules are we supposed to discuss? What is the next step?

[Galdor]

Ok, could someone please enlighten me as to what has already been decided, where/when was it voted on and why? I don't have time to read this whole thread, so it would be a real help if I knew what has and hasn't been decided.

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Ok, I was super active for a week or two, but now I'm going to be, inevitably slowing down. School starts again on monday, which is going to limit posting time to about an hour. And, the war is starting to pick up, and I am playing a few pretty big roles in that (I'm getting there, Nenya, I have to read over your plans a few times). So, Just PM me whenever something super important is happening.

Thanks

[Anamatar IV]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Ok, Anamatar, could you please be more specific? What other rules are we supposed to discuss? What is the next step?

Any rules you think we should have.

And Galdor, we decided on a government system (read Rasec's post that starts with "Maybe I misunderstood Galdor's idea") and we decided on a punishment policy. ANd that is a level of punishments for each offence. We have quickly decided on magical overuse and are now trying to decide on rules we should have .

[Galdor]

Ok, I looked over Rasec's post, and for the most part I like it, but there are some things in it that I am against. Also, I noted that besides me only three GC members have posted in this thread.(including Anamatar) And three GC members is not enough to vote on something, so unless there was a council where a vote was taken that I missed, a council must be called and a vote taken before anything can be decided. I for one have some problems with Rasec's idea that I will not post here but wish to talk over with the councl. And I'm sure that others in the GC will have some things that they think should be added/removed from Rasec's idea.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I know that one of Galdor's problems with the government system does need the counsel's due attention. We need to do that. However, I think that the most pressing issue right now should be the training system. We need to get that up and running before people lose interest. I think we should shoot to have it up by next Wednesday. In this case, we need to have a counsel meeting. Or, I can simply post my proposition here in this thread. Azog can do the same with his added stuff. We need to do this soon!

[Anamatar IV]

Didn't I already say 'yea' to that idea?;) We need a council meeting because we need to figure out which characters can take what (like a diplomate CAN NOT take classes on fighting with an axe:rolleyes: )

[Nenya Evenstar]

Darn, I hate this. :rolleyes: Sorry, but I couldn't help myself. This training thing gives me a headache. Ok, you did accept the idea, but we did not let everyone know how it works. We need to do that as well.

So, when's the meeting?

[Galdor]

What happend to voting? It seems like this training thing was aproved by only Azog, Nenya, and Anamatar. And that is not a majority vote.

[Anamatar IV]

You are correct that it is not majority vote but ILLOTRTM will go for it and that is of the members who were at the council when this was discussed. There is a possible GC member who opted for this idea far earlier and that will give 5...out of 10.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well peoples, when is the meeting? We need to get on this ASAP. :)

[Anamatar IV]

we will all have to be on AIM sometime this week sometime between 7 and 9 pm EST because that's the only evening time I am allowed on...we had it 8 EST last time.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Alright, I will download AOL on this computer. I will PM all GC members and alert them of this meeting as soon as we decide on a time. How about 7 PM EST on Wednesday? Does that work? I think we need as much time as we possibly can have.

[Anamatar IV]

okay-that time is good for me...how about this for a *starting* agenda:

~A vote on the training thingamajig
~what rules we think we should have

If anyone has anything else I will gladdly add it:)

[Nenya Evenstar]

The time isn't going to work. Galdor and Aerin can't make it and Azog will not be able to be there for very much of it. Why don't we just start using the White Council forum for what it's supposed to be used for? The government! Then we can can these IM meetings.

[Anamatar IV]

all good ideas:rolleyes:

let's do that then...BUT NO NON GC MEMBERS CAN POST THERE DURING OUR COUNCILS! hehe...I want to emphasize that.;)

[Nenya Evenstar]

No regular members should post there period. If we designate a thread for the regular members then they can post, but otherwise, they should not. The White Council forum is off limits for posting except for Grand Council members.

[Anamatar IV]

Just so every one knows who is in the Grand Council:

Aeirn
Galdor
ILLOTRTM
Elu Thingol
Nenya Evenstar
Anamatar
Azog

[Dáin Ironfoot I]

Anamatar- I thought you were not a part of the Grand Council anymore, similar to how George Dubya is not part of the Legislative Branch, he is his own entity...

confused...

[Nenya Evenstar]

He is his own entity, but he is also allowed to post in the Grand Council threads. So, his name is on the list.

[Anamatar IV]

yeah well I s'pose people want me included in those councils.;) youre right I am not part of the GC...that list is the CURRENT list of people that can post in that forum.:)