The Final battle.......

[redline2200]

I have read the trilogy and the Sil but I am still a little unclear on what exactly the "final battle" is. I know that when elves die they go to the halls of mandos until the time of the final battle , but what exactly is the final battle? who fights in it? Im sure the Valar are involved and if they are it doesn't seem like it will be much of a battle. There isnt any bad guys powerful enough to take on all the Valar. Also, do you think Eru will play a part in the final battle?

[Lantarion]

In the Final Battle, Dagor Dagorath, all of the Children of Ilúvatar and all of the Ainur will supposedly fight against every evil of Morgoth; and it si told that Túrin Turambar will deliver the death-blow to Melkor.
That's all I 'know'; it's all in one of the HoME books. :)

[Celebthôl]

K now im very intregued, i have read the sil but dont remember anything on the last battle (only the name is familiar) anyway, can i have some information on it please, any will help thanx!

Thôl

[Niniel]

Someone posted a quote from HOME a few weeks ago about the Final battle, can someone find the link or post it again? It was very intriguing!

[gate7ole]

One of the passages (the most detailed) says:
From HOME V:
Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

[Celebthôl]

oh god im really enthralled by that now, i want to know more on the subject, and how was Túrin named as among the Valar, and does Mandos know the fate of men?

[Niniel]

It doesn't say Turin was named among the Valar, but 'among the sons of the Valar' (which is some difference). I wish Tolkien had written more about this!

[Gloer]

I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.

Morgoth will win and all the Arda will perish in darkness.

Tolkien after all was familiar with the germanic mythology of Ragnaroyk. The end is grim and final. Everything falls and perishes Thor, Odin and Loke all fall with their warriors that have waited in Valhalla and the giants win.

This is important in understanding the reasons why german pagans fought. They didn't fight because of they were promised victory at the end. They fought because it was the right thing to do.

I think Tolkien purposefully left the apocalypse of Arda unpublished because Catholic apocalypse of eternal victory of God and redemption does not play well at all with the germanic myths.

He never reached a nice synthesis such as TLOTR portrayal of evil and Silmarillions Long Defeat which manage to have both sides: real evil and evil within, the good side winning but with irrecoverable losses (making it an eventual defeat). In all Tolkiens work there is a presence of loss and decay. Good things stand only if they are held up by good people. There is no inevitable victory for the good side and good things.

[Niniel]

But even in Ragnarok there is some vague reference (much discussed by great scholars) that there is still some good left after the victory of the giants; so evil does not totally win and the gods seem to be not wholly conquered. It's in the poetic Edda, one of the last verses in it.
But, why would Tolkien write such an outline that clearly points to a victory of the Valar, and after all, not finish it because he believed that in the end evil would win? I think he just didn't have time to finish it.

[Lantarion]

I don't think Tolkien had either the Eddas or the Bible in mind when he thuoght up Dagor Dagorath and its end; he wrote what he wanted and felt was going to happen, and we shouldn't question his 'reasoning' just because it conflicts with ancient myths.
Originally posted by Gloer
I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.
Gloer, what makes you say that? I don't think this is a matter of belief, as Tolkien actually wrote down what would have happened in the Final Battle.:confused:

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Gloer
I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.

Morgoth will win and all the Arda will perish in darkness.

So, you question the professor? That he didn't know the correct end of the story? Why are you so destructive? Do you know anything more?:D
Seriously now, Tolkien would never end the story of ME with a complete destruction and win of the evil. He was not a pessimist. From inside his mythology, Eru wouldn't allow such an outcome. And finally Mandos' prophecies were always true. Why should this one differ?

[Gloer]

He made some drafts. maybe we can conclude that overall D-day would end happily but Tolkien seems to be dissatisfied with everything. It lacks a climatic end!

Bringing Turin to avenge and destroy Morgoth is a bit artificial don't you think?

tulkas wrestling Morgoth was not enough. Everyone knew how that had ended before when Melkor was at height of his strength.

I am convinced that Tolkiens drafts for the end of Arda are just drafts.

Good winning in the end is christian thing to have. A great battle to end evil reign over the world. But that would neccessitate a true conquest of Arda by Morgoth before he can be beaten! Otherwise it is not a fight at all. Morgoth tries to get in and he loses, everybody is happy and no one in Hobbitton even noticed really?! No Morgoth either needs to win first and then be overthrown (like in Silmarillion) or he must lose but manage to destroy everything first.

Anyhow I think a mythical ending is not neccessary since years after the LOTR there is nothing fantastic in Middle Earth. It is basically realistic world withno clear god and no evil, just shades of grey modern people. You can't have Morgoth there in person!?
People would laugh him out!

[Celebthôl]

No they wouldnt, it would have to be like at least a millenium or 2 before he would get laughed out, because although there is no mysticalness in ME there is still a linger of it and tales of it that will last for a long time and then Orcs and Trolls have to be desroyed also so there is nuthing different left, and history passes out of knowlege and then stupid technology comes in and ruins all our brains and i hate it all loads!!!!!!!!
(sorry i really hate technology (should be banned))!!!

Here endeth thy rant!

Thôl

[BlackCaptain]

Ive never really understood this "Final Battle" until now, and all of your arguments are kind of foolish... THIS IS A BOOK. IT NEVER HAPPENED. Some of you are forgeting that, and arguing like this could be found in a history book they teach you at school. We have no way of knowing what finally happens in the bitter end of all, and its wrong to try and finish Tolkiens work for him. The only person who is qualified to do such is Christopher Tolkien.

And someone mentioned like, Melkor coming out of the Void? First, what void? And second:
When the Ring is destroyed in Mt. Doom, that is pretty much the end, i think. Think about it... Morgoth does a bunch of bad stuff, he gets killed, or destroyed or watever, his "heir" Sauron takes over in middle earth, and makes the rings. Into the rings, or i should say Ring, he puts all of the evil and bad things he can muster. So when the Ring finally gets destroyed, along with Sauron, who else does the "bad guys" have? Orcs? A master Troll? A wizard? (keep in mind Sauraman dies...)

Unless Morgoth CAN come out of some "void", the good guys have won. And if he does end up coming out of a Void, that is only our guess, and not proven. Now that quote that... gate7ole posted was very good, and well searched for. good job. Tolkien wrote that i presume, and since Tolkien wrote it, how can Gloer say that that doesnt happen? Tolkien says, that he is finaly destroyed, er whatever, and all is good again.

And if that quote doesnt come true, we have no spot in saying what really does happen.

That probly doesnt make much sense...

[Celebthôl]

firstly: we never even mesioned history books and finishing the stories, i just havent read HOME or UT so imaskin after those!

secondly: go read the Silmarillion!

thirdly: sauron was a servant of morgoth not the other way round so its far from over!

fourthly: that quote came from The Sil, HOME and/or UT which are mostly just notes! (or put together by notes)(theyare unfinished works by Mr Tolkien)!

fifthly: the void is the bladdy place where Morgoth got put when he was defeted, it is also the place where Earendil sails his boat with the last Silmaril!

finally: where the hell do you get off by repetidly saying "THIS IS A BOOK. IT NEVER HAPPENED"?! dont u think we know that?! people are interested in its histories and it can be found in a history book (if u look in the right one) we are debating it, but please show me where we said it was real!!!

[BlackCaptain]

sorry, you make good points...

Firstly: ok. But this gloer guy is kinda taking it to an extreme

Secondly: I am

Thirdly: i knew Sauron was a servant of Morgoth. Sauron kinda takes over when Morgoth gets destroyed er watever... so when he gets destroyed, who's left to take over?

fourthly: exactly. Their UNFINISHED. And some of you, not all, are trying to finish them, and making a big deal about it

Fifthly: thnx. i didnt know that. but what does bladdy mean?

and finally: Uve gotta point. It just seems like to many of us (me included sometimes) let our imaginations take over. It's fun to talk about it, yes... but we need to stay in reality and remember "its just a story". It is a great set of books, and it seems so real that we want to believe it happend. But it didnt, and we need to remind ourselves of that before we get too... argumental...

Im just tryin to give everyone a little reality check, cuz a couple people (whom i wont name) are getting just a little carried away. And i stress little.

[Húrin Thalion]

Reality? What do you mean? I don't get your point at all? What kind of sick world is that?

Anyway, besides my silly and predictable jokes I had to make i must say one thing. Morgulking it seems like you are not quitely the right person to tell someone not to get too carried away it is only an internet forum, people may have different opinions or wish to do different things here don't get too upset.

Húrin Thalion

[BlackCaptain]

another good point, but again, im just trying to calm everyone down, and make sure they dont get carried away.

My house is big on that... Dont get carried away with things...

I probly shouldn't have said anything though.

I APOLAGIZE AND REMOVE ALL OF MY THOUGHTS FROM THIS FORUM. FORGET I SAID ANYTHING

[Húrin Thalion]

Take it easy MorgulKing, just because I make a point doesn't mean I hate you and wish you to leave TTF, we must all be able to take constructive criticism from others, if that wasn't constructive I apologize but that was my intention. Just as a suggestion, you needn't be all knowing or rude when answering to something.

Húrin Thalion

[BlackCaptain]

thanks for ur... reassurance. People seemed very confused with my ideas, so i withdrew them...

[Gloer]

1. i know it is a book, a story, some lines of language

2. but then any constructed worldview is just language

3. reality is what one can see arround

4. but already making a theory of what one is seeing is ultimately fiction

5. what makes it "true" and real is that it does not contradict with observations ie. it is not proven false

6.scientific world view is an elaborate piece of fiction and fantasy, even better than M-E

7. reality is the observations we make, how we understand it is already a sort of imaginary construct, a model for understanding, a model to help us act in the world

8. a mythical model might help us act in a world that we live in, most ethics are modeled in fiction, allegory, tales, myths etc... they are not just stories

9. it is effecting human behaviour how one thinks the world ends ( and if one thinks it ends or goes in cycles froever or what ever)

10. now. the real question is that even though Tolkien wrote&drafted fiction for a fantasy world, he also wrote about an issue encompassing everything: how does it all end? good or bad?

[Arvedui]

I came late to this thread, but there is one thing here that intigues me:
I think that part of the Turin is not going to happen.

Tolkien after all was familiar with the germanic mythology of Ragnaroyk. The end is grim and final. Everything falls and perishes Thor, Odin and Loke all fall with their warriors that have waited in Valhalla and the giants win.

I can't understand why this should mean that what the professor wrote should not happen? There is, after all, a difference between the Edda, and the works of JRRT. The most important part in this discussion is that there is no figure like Eru/Illuvatar in the Edda. There, the chief God is Odin, but he can't be compared to Odin. If he could be compared to any character in The Sil, it would have to be Manwë. Sort of 'first among equals'.

IMO, Eru is almighty. Therefore, Good will prevail, and all Evil will perish.

[Gloer]

Tolkien had several drafts, he didn't settle the idea. He played with it but didn't make a decision.

Turin is a bit far fetched to be the avenger. I think Tolkien was trying to have the Christ saviour type of figure there to fight Eru's fight. But Turin? Why not Hurin?

Edda has a bad ending because norse gods were mortal. It was the Saint Ulfilas who converted the goths and he used this method. He showed how unworthy, flawed and weak the norse gods were. They were born and so they would be dead too. They did not create the world, so the world did not need them to exist. This was quite convincing: You just had to have something above the old gods, a creator, the beginning and the end. Edda has no God almighty, you are right, and that is why it probably must end like it did and M-E like it was planned.

[FoolOfATook]

Gloer- just out of curiosity, where did you learn that story? I'm intrigued to read more about this Saint Ulfilas.

[BlackCaptain]

gloer, arent you aware of the fact that Tolkien himself, said SEVERAL times that none of his stories were Alligoies? Why would he stop now? And i agree with Arvedui. In the end, Eru, The superior to everyone, including Melkor, would come down from werever if he had to, in the very end to save his world. But that is just if he absolutely had to. at least i think so

[Gloer]

of the Roman Empire" has that story:

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap37.htm#conversion
"
"Admit," says the sagacious disputant, "whatever they are pleased to assert of the fabulous and carnal genealogy of their gods and goddesses, who are propagated from each other. From this principle deduce their imperfect nature and human infirmities, the assurance they were born, and the probability that they will die. At what time, by what means, from what cause, were the eldest of the gods or goddesses produced? Do they still continue, or have they ceased, to propagate? If they have ceased, summon your antagonist to declare the reason of this strange alteration. If they still continue, the number of the gods must become infinite and shall we not risk, by the indiscreet worship of some impotent deity, to excite the resentment of his jealous superior? The visible heavens and earth, the whole system of the universe, which may be conceived by the mind, is it created or eternal? If created, how or where could the gods themselves exist before the creation? If eternal, how could they assume the empire of an independent and pre-existing world? Urge these arguments with temper and moderation; insinuate, at seasonable intervals, the truth and beauty of the Christian revelation; and endeavour to make the unbelievers ashamed without making them angry."
"

[Gloer]

what Tolkien wants us to think he was doing.

Tolkien turns out to be quite a propagandist sometimes.

[Eledhwen]

I haven't read HoME V, but the quote above looks familiar to me.

Morgoth's return, with a reign of terror, and his final overthrow by heaven's forces is the same as what happens to Satan in the Bible (Then there is a new heaven and a new earth etc.)

My point is that, just as the Bible says this earth can be redeemed though it continues to decay miserably, so Tolkien can do the same for Middle-Earth.

I love the idea of the Elves returning. I expect Tolkien didn't want to be explicit about the fate of men after the final battle out of reverence for his own, real world beliefs. There's no way the Biblical fate of man can be grafted onto Middle-Earth without writing something contrary to what the Bible says - the existence of Elves makes that impossible.

[Beleg]

Ah! Actually as i have just read, Written By M.M Tolkien is a narrater. He is narrating a tale not conceving it. In most place we will find that Tolkien has used the words, "will" or "would". Besides what other authority do you have other then the words of Professor to negate his own saying, whether it be too vauge or not? Tolkien created his own world. What he says is like Divine Law and we can't argue with it. However If their is any vagueness in his words then we can discuss it and try to find anyother quote less ambigous and where the meaning is more clear.
About the Fate of Turin, i think the above mentioned (On page1) point is the only one in which the fate of Turin is declared. And as far as i can see it is quiet clear. TOlkien is narrating that Mandos said, He is narrating, which means it has allready been done. So we cant disagree with it.

[Turambar07]

Alright, I am just starting to read the HOME series. Could someone tell me what book or where i could find the most information on the last battle? Also what Turin are we talking about? Turin the first, Turin (Turambar) because I thought he killed himself after he slayed Glaurung. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also please tell me where I can find this info on the last battle. I have read the Silmarillion several times and it does not talk about it much at all. I've read the book of lost tales 1, and all the LOTR books, and am currently reading Unfinished Tales. Please help me. Thanx in advance.

[redline2200]

Turambar07, I can't help you much except by saying that the Turin that they are talking about is Turin (Turambar), son of Hurin and Morwen.

[Turambar07]

Alright, thats good to know. Thanx. Now if anyone else can give me the location of all this information on the last battle, please do so. Like is it in any of the HOME books?

[gate7ole]

It can be found in a few HOME books (1, 2, 4, 5), which the last one (The lost road) having the biggest description of the LAst Battle.

[Niniel]

I do see the similarity; it would be nice to see if there are more religions/mythology in which this idea comes forward. Tolkien muist be influenced by this, but I don't think he ever wrote what exactly would happen after the Final battle.

[Bucky]

You can't have Morgoth there in person!?
People would laugh him out!

Kind of like when Satan falls to earth?
Well, he'll be hiding as a man known as the anti-christ.

There is no doubt Morgoth is somewhat based on Satan, both beginning & end.

I agree that there's no definitive ending, it's just drafts.

I'm reading HoME #10 & it's filled with differences in the published Silmarillion.......

I mean, I keep reading 'Fionwe' here.
Fionwe didn't make any finished published works that I know of......

So, take it with a grain of salt.

For the record, I findit very hard to believe that the Valar are too tired to keep Melkor at bay but a screwed up man who killed himself can slay Morgoth......

[Inderjit S]

'Fioinwe' is the pre-cursor of Eonwe. He is here the son of Manwe, When the idea of Valarin pro-creation was dropped, he was changed to Eonwe herald of Manwe. The idea of Valarin pro-creation was dropped in the writing of the Latter Quenta Silmarillion (HoME 10). The problem with the texts of the Quentas' and Annals in HoME 10 and 21 and to lesser a extent HoME 5, is that C.T gives them in their uneditted forms. So wheras there may be passage from the earlier parts from the Latter Quenta Silmarillion and they listed 'Fionwe' son of Manwe, but in the course of writing the 'Publsihed Silmarillion' C.T would have altered this passage to 'Eonwe' herald of Manwe to keep that text in synct with Tolkien's later works on the subject.

[Helcaraxë]

I expect Tolkien didn't want to be explicit about the fate of men after the final battle out of reverence for his own, real world beliefs.

Actually, Tolkien does explain the fate of men.

Though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Iluvatar by the choirs of both the Ainur and the Sons of Men after the Great End.

--BoLT 1

And later in the Sil...

Though it has been said that a greater still shall be made by the Choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the End of Days.

Note that the emendation from "Sons of Men" to "Children of Iluvatar" still includes men in the Second Music. Curiously, it seems to be the fate of theElves that Tolkien was unsure of, not men.

I agree that these are just drafts. But because Tolkien's later drafts are far closer to his complete conception than are the earlier ones, these should be taken as fact; they most accurately represent Tolkien's revised vision.

MB