The Silmarillion - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

[Turgon]

Okay I do confess to forgetting all about my assignment - so forgive the baggyiness of my post!


I want to start this discussion with some questions on the doings of Melkor in these Days of Darkness - I will come to the Elves soon enough, but I see this as a Chapter with a great many questions. So I'd like to break it down it parts if I may.

So erm... Part I

'But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days. And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over Middle-earth.

'Learn now the lore of Melkor's creatures!'

In the Darkness of Middle-earth Melkor holds sway and stamps his own mark on many of the creatures that dwell therein. The origin of the Balrogs is pretty clear, yet being of the Ainur, why are these spirits given a generic form and manifestation in Arda - while others (I'm thinking of Sauron here) seem to possess unique form and personality?

'But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the seas the great weeds, and on earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.'

We know of Melkor's work twisting the creatures of Middle-earth into Mockeries of Ilúvatar's work. But what exactly was he up to here? Is this where we should imagine Melkor beginning his first experiments in Drake and Dragons? And if so - were there mighty 'prehistoric' beasts abroad in the lands that he twisted and corrupted? If the legend of the Fastitocalon is to be believed then it is certainly possible.

Next we have the orcs - so much has been said about their origins that I don't think I can add much to this debate. But in this chapter we find the famous.

'Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.'

I guess this one of the more debated statements in the Published Silmarillion - and we have had many arguements on this subject. In Tolkien's later writings we see him moving away from the idea of Orc's being corrupted from elven stock and moving towards a more origin for them and many people have used his later essays on the origins of the Orcs to argue that Orcs and not derived from Elvenkind at all. Yet if orcs did spring mannish stock much of the earlier chapters of the Silmarillion begin to lose their shape, in fact they begin to fall apart - is it wise then to do is to take the published Silmarillion (if anything) as 'canon'? Do you believe there is such a thing as a Tolkien 'canon'? Or was Tolkien trying to tell us something when he has Gandalf say 'And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.'?

To be continued...

[Nóm]

Is this where we should imagine Melkor beginning his first experiments in Drake and Dragons? And if so - were there mighty 'prehistoric' beasts abroad in the lands that he twisted and corrupted?
Yes, I think so. I figure that he mixed big prehistoric type animals with Maiar to create the dragons.

I've not got into the debates about the orcs because I haven't read the later stuff that is said to contradict what is told in The Silmarillion. I'm not even sure what exactly was said, but I will say that the statement in The Silmarillion has the qualifier that the information is presented as the belief of elves. Now I know that a lot of other information is given in this form and I generally take this information as fact, but it does leave that little margin for error.

...is it wise then to do is to take the published Silmarillion (if anything) as 'canon'? Do you believe there is such a thing as a Tolkien 'canon'?
This thought has been bothering me a lot throughout the last month or so and my attitude and appraoch to the books has changed.
In short... I do not think there is a canon Silmarillion.

[Lhunithiliel]

As for the first issue, I would say....
Why to think that ALL those ancient dark and strong creatures of those ages wandering the lands of ME were creations of Melkor?
Those, who came to dwell in ME when Morgoth ruled there, were spirits. So, they may be Maiar or/and lesser creatures that came to Arda with the High Valar. And if so, they had the abilities to take up any shape they seemed to like for themselves... The surrounding world, their Master and the ME itself were dark and cruel at that time....So these spirits took the .... appropriate (so to say) shapes....
I don't beileve that Melkor made them all....

As for the second issue - the Orcs, well I am not sure. Just like Nom, I'm still learning, so I can't say.
One thing is sure, though, for me. The Published Silamrillion is far from being a cannon.

[Húrin Thalion]

The surrounding world, their Master and the ME itself were dark and cruel at that time....So these spirits took the .... appropriate (so to say) shapes....

Indeed he could not have made any of them since he did not posess the ability to create living beings. Also I ownder if they took shapes or they were goven to them. For it is said of the Valar that they did not need to clad themselves in bodily form until the coming of Iluvatar's childrren, so I would say that he commanded them to take shape of some kind. That would to me seem very like the way of Melkor.

On orcs: I cannot tell since I ahve't read the later essays, but I do believe since it is in the Published Silmarillion that orcs were of elvenkind. Christopher was very close to his father and understood much of his thoughts concerning Middle-Earth and to me, he is the only now living that can tell what JRRRT's meaning wasin the end. I do not think of Silmarillion as a cannon/canon, since that is when you sing the same song at the same time as another but in different places of it. Instead I think that it waas a song that was altered a little everytime it was sung and the Published Silmarillion is the conclusion of all this, many songs twined together and then sung. That is the root of JRRT's greatness.

Húrin Thalion

[gate7ole]

Here is a (summarized) quote from “Myths Tranformed” (Morgoth’s Ring) about the origins of the Orcs. It is a little large but very insightful.

It seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense?
What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?
In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) become more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.
In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted and converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.
But Finrod probably went too far in his assertion that Melkor could not wholly corrupt any work of Eru. It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.
The wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is non-cooperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).

The above written by JRRT at the later stages of his life, should be considered the most “canon” sources. He simply rejects the elvish origins of the Orcs, withdrawing any mental abilities from them, degrading them to beasts. This doesn’t conflict with the Silmarillion and Nóm showed it by saying that the Silmarillion is removed from the truth by at least one factor, the elvish tradition.

Now about the embodiment of the Balrogs, several reasons may exist.
1. Morgoth could control them easier as earthly manifestations than spirits.
2. By such an embodiment they might be able to conceive (like Melian) and reproduce, which was definitely one of Morgoth’s plans
3. It might help them fight against the Children of Ilúvatar better than being spirits.

[Nóm]

Thanks for providing that.
Interesting, he seems to have came up with these thoughts out of the thought that (as Finrod said) Melkor could not ruin an entire race.
Though I hadn't read this before, I have read what Finrod said and already given thought to orcs in this context. I have reached a different conclusion than Tolkien seems to have reached though he doesn't come right out and say it.
He seems to have concluded that had orcs come from elves that woud have been the ruining of an entire race whereas I think it would have been curruption of invidivuals since many (and I guess most) of the elves were not currupted. Assuming orcs come from elves then the race of elves were not ruined as I see it, but a good amount of individuals were.
Though Tolkien does go on to say that Finrod may have been mistaken, I think he need not have been in order for the theory of orcs from elves to hold up.

[Turgon]

Much of the trouble I have with the Mannish descent of Orcs is that many of the earlier chapters then begin to come apart - for instance: if the orcs were indeed corruptions of man, then how is it possible for the earlier Uruk incursions into Beleriand to have taken place? It seems to come to the point where either the earlier battles of Beleriand did not take place or that man did not awake with the first rising of the sun. All rather confusing I think. Can these difficulties just be explained aways as the 'Elvish' account of how things happened?

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Turgon
Much of the trouble I have with the Mannish descent of Orcs is that many of the earlier chapters then begin to come apart - for instance: if the orcs were indeed corruptions of man, then how is it possible for the earlier Uruk incursions into Beleriand to have taken place? It seems to come to the point where either the earlier battles of Beleriand did not take place or that man did not awake with the first rising of the sun. All rather confusing I think. Can these difficulties just be explained aways as the 'Elvish' account of how things happened?
Well, didn't you like Tolkien's late writings about the origins of Orcs? They seem to avoid any conflict with the written material. Of course, judging by the appearence of the Orcs of LOTR, we cannot completely accept the fact that they were not sentient beings, but controlled by the ultimate evil... I wonder how many parts of LOTR would Tolkien rewrite if he had the time.

[Turgon]

I do like Tolkien's later writings Gate7ole - there are some wonderful gems in the later books of the HoME series. The Essay on the Origin of the Sun and Moon being one of my favourite. (Though again this is one of the more divergent of the later writings) This essay sheds a whole new light on the period of the awakening of the elves... hehe! quite literally!?! And gives the Silmarillion a Mannish origin - an idea which I prefer as it seems to give the Sil. a greater scope for error. As to the whole question of the sentience of the orcs I have to agree - they have far too much personality not to be sentient - and in the Hobbit we even see them planning with their own goals and motives - a view of the uruks that I prefer. When it comes down to it the way I look at Tolkien's works is to create my own canon - to pick and choose from the later writings the things which agree most with my 'vision' of Middle-earth... after all there is a great deal of subjectivity in each individuals perception of ME... I'm sure that each person that reads about Middle-earth has their own thoughts and views on how things are... that's all part of the richness of it I think.

from 'Of the Coming of the Elves...'
'From without the world, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold.'

[Maedhros]

From The War of the Jewels: Quendi and Eldar Cuivienyarna
While their first bodies were being made from the 'flesh of Arda' the Quendi slept 'in the womb of the Earth', beneath the green sward, and awoke when they were full-grown. But the First Elves (also called the Unbegotten, or the Eru-begotten) did not all wake together. Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her 'destined spouse'. But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and more eager and adventurous in strange places. These three Elf-fathers are named in the ancient tales Imin,Tata, and Enel. They awoke in that order, but with little time between each; and from them, say the Eldar, the words for one, two, and three were made: the oldest of all numerals.
And so it was that the Quendi ever after reckoned in twelves, and that 144 was for long their highest number, so that in none of their later tongues was there any common name for a greater number. And so also it came about that the 'Companions of Imin' or the Eldest Company (of whom came the Vanyar) were nonetheless only fourteen in all, and the smallest company; and
the 'Companions of Tata' (of whom came the Ñoldor) were fifty-six in all; but the 'Companions of Enel' although the Youngest Company were the largest; from them came the Teleri (or Lindar), and they were in the beginning seventy-four in all.
Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and
green things that grew and the sun of summer were their delight;
but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrow-dim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda. But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.
I thought it would be appropiate to bring something more specific in regards to the Awakening of the Elves.
Interesting to note that these three elves that first awoke were not the Elves chosen by Oromë as ambassadors. (In the case of Finwë, he chose his spouse Míriel in Valinorë, and Elwë spoused a Maia.)
I wonder what the Eldest elves thought of that?

[greypilgrim]

right on

[greypilgrim]

Orome hunted those creatures that are not named, alot. they were probably misfits, mistakes Melkor made when trying to create life on his own.
He was never given the power, or knowledge to do so on his own, so at first he wasn't that good. So he took those that were alive already, and these were Maiar, who followed him, and as a reward, they became Balrogs. Later he took Elves and Men and "nursed them with fell meats", lets say, and those also became his, but because of their beginning as lesser beings than Maiar, they came out weaker, Orcs.
Dragons, I can't imagine where they came from, but they were probably "researched" a long time, because they didn't show up for ages. They probably took alot of power to "make", and therefore were more powerful than Balrogs (I think they were). And even when we first see Dragons (Urulokai?), they did not fly, but came out with wings later, to the dismay of many Elves assailing Angband.
This is all speculation, I have not read later writings of Tolkien's, I'd rather just imagine it.

[gate7ole]

From the same passage about the War of the Jewels, it is interesting to see why the Vanyar were the fewer of the three races. They were searching for groups of Elves and each leader took the group when it was his turn. The groups were growing in numbers, so the first was small, the second larger etc. When everyone had taken his first group, Imin (the first leader) decided to skip his turn, so that he would get a larger group later. And guess what, there were only 5 groups!
Another point is their names: Imin, Tata, Elde. Compare them to the Quenya words: One (Minë), Two(Atta), Three (Neldë).

Also let’s see some dates taken from the Annals of Aman:
All years are Years of the Tees, counting from the Creation of the Trees. 1 Tree Year~=10 Sun Years.
1050: The Elves awake at Cuiviénen.
1085: Oromë meets the Elves.
1086: Oromë returns to Valinor and the Valar start the council.
1090: They decide to make war with Melkor.
1090-92: The first assault of the Valar.
1092-1100: The siege of Utumno.
1102: The three elf-lords are brought to Valmar.
1115-25: The great march of the Eldar.

Interesting points:
-The Elves lived 35 T.Y. (~335 S.Y.) before the Valar found them. Anything could happen during such a long period, especially since Melkor found them first and hunted them. I guess that some of the three elder elves (that first awoke), had perished. That is why the ambassadors were probably chosen from younger elves.
-The march lasted 10 T.Y. Too long for the distance. If we estimate that Cuiviénen was 4000 miles from the Sea, they marched about 3 miles a month (our month). This is one reason why Men couldn’t have been brought to Valinor, even if the circumstances were different. Two generations would die on the way.
-12 T.Y. were needed for the Great March to begin after the ambassadors returned. They must have had a hard time convincing their people.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I'm going to jump in here and add a few thoughts of my own on different subjects.
But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the seas the great weeds, and on earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.

Could this be a mention of Ents? I know that the first part of the sentence seems to be mentioning only olvar, but perhaps this is something mentioning the Ents as well. I don't mean to start another long discussion on whether the Ents or Elves came first because I do not even know what I think on that subject myself. :D However, I am simply thinking of the Trolls. If Trolls are made in mockery of Ents, then what better time could there be than this to create those creatures? Did Melkor twist Ents to make Trolls? Or was Melkor able to create Trolls on his own because they were only a mockery?
But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread.Were some of these "evil things" Ents that Melkor had perverted into Trolls?

And, just a comment:
But the mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were taller and more terrible in those days, and were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Orome.
I find it interesting that in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit the Misty Mountains are filled with Orcs. Were the evil creatures of Melkor drawn to the things he created in the beginning?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar

I find it interesting that in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit the Misty Mountains are filled with Orcs. Were the evil creatures of Melkor drawn to the things he created in the beginning?

I just figure the orcs hid out in mountains because they'd be hunted if they tried to settle out in the open.

Thanks a lot for posting that gate7ole.
I guess that some of the three elder elves (that first awoke), had perished. That is why the ambassadors were probably chosen from younger elves.
I think that is probably what happend too. But of course, I guess there is always the chance that the first to awaken were not cut out for it. They may have been among those who fled when Orome showed up. Maybe being born in the world earlier on they never got used to outside things or had any desire to trust outsiders. Sort of the way that in our world it is for the most part the younger generations that embrace new things quicker than the old.

[gate7ole]

Could this be a mention of Ents?
Well, taking into account that the Ents were awoken by the Elves, at least judging by the words of wise Treebeard:
Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk.
So, it is not possible that the phrase you quote refers to the Ents, since the Elves had not awoken first. I don’t say that the Elves were older, but even if the Ents were alive at the time, they were still asleep.
Were some of these "evil things" Ents that Melkor had perverted into Trolls?
For the same reasons, the Trolls couldn’t at the time exist yet, since their “original” shapes, the Ents hadn’t awoken. It’s a kind of chain. Elves-> Ents -> Trolls. My best guess is that the creatures referred to the quote are just beasts without any intelligence, just evil monsters (like the Watcher).

[Nenya Evenstar]

Haha! So obvious! I never before had actually gotten that part of the Ent debate. Terrible! :p

But now I would ask a question about Trolls. Are they actually captured Ents that have been twisted? Or are they just a mockery? Can Melkor actually "make" something if it is in mockery? Or can he only twist? What exactly are the "dark creatures?" Are they simply twisted kelvar?

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar
Haha! So obvious! I never before had actually gotten that part of the Ent debate. Terrible! :p

But now I would ask a question about Trolls. Are they actually captured Ents that have been twisted? Or are they just a mockery? Can Melkor actually "make" something if it is in mockery? Or can he only twist? What exactly are the "dark creatures?" Are they simply twisted kelvar?

I have always thought that Morgoth could only twist. If he tried to imitate, the creatures he made wouldn't be independent (not possesing the Imperishable Fire). Now, the Orcs "seem" intelligent, (although much is this topic debated) and they must have been the result of twisting. But the Trolls were really stupid (until the Olog-hai, they say), so in their case, the Ents might have been too stubborn to twist and Morgoth tried to imitate them. Who knows?

[Nenya Evenstar]

I agree with you that I do not think Melkor can create but only twist, gate7ole. I like your analogy with the cave trolls as well. :)

Time for some more random comments by Nenya. :rolleyes:

But at the bidding of Manwe Mandos spoke, and he said: 'In this age the Children of Iluvatar shall come indeed, but they come not yet. Moreover it is doom that the Firstborn shall come in the darkness, and shall look first upon the stars. Great light shall be for their waning. To Varda ever shall they call at need.'

Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn;....

It is told that even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long, when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered int he mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Iluvatar. By the starlit mere of Cuivienen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Iluvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuivienen their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven. Therefore they have ever loved the starlight, and have revered Varda Elentari above all the Valar.
I find it quite interesting that directly after Mandos prophecies concerning Varda and the Firstborn that Varda goes to make the stars. It seems almost arranged in a way. It's funny to me that a prophecy would be made and then directly begin to be fulfilled.
Carnil and Luinil, Nenar and Lumbar, Alcarinque and Elemmire she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronume, and Anarrima; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.
I also find it very interesting that Tolkien uses stars from our own sky with different names and as different signs for his stars. Is he wanting to connect our world to his? Is he still wishing for his stories to be a distant history of our world? Or is he simply implying something that the stars in our heavens are too good to mess with?

Nonetheless the Valar did not discover all the mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under the fortresses of Angband and Utumno. Many evil things still lingered there, and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour; and Sauron they did not find.How did Melkor get so many creatures? Were Maiar simply attracted to him? If so, were Maiar hungry for power? There seems to be a trend going on with Sauron and Saruman as well as Osse -- rebellious and power hungry they seem to be. What is this?

[jallan]

Nenya Evenstar posted: I also find it very interesting that Tolkien uses stars from our own sky with different names and as different signs for his stars. Is he wanting to connect our world to his? Is he still wishing for his stories to be a distant history of our world?Tolkien intended his legendarium to relate to our own world, as he insists several times in letters published in Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

It is a legendary past, something like going into the past to the time of the Trojan War, but going into the legends and myths, not into history, to the flat earth of Greek Mythology where Sun and Moon are deities driving chariots and gods mingle with humans.

Tolkien's legendarium describes his own fictional legendary past of our own world.

In the "Prologue" to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien wrote:Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea.Middle-earth is an old English name for the normal lands in which human beings dwell, called "middle" because it is between heaven above, the underworld below, and surrounded by more fabulous countries inhabited by giants and other non-human beings. The same concept appears in Norse mytholgy with Miðgarð, that is "Middle-region", applied to the world of humans.

Unfortunately Middle-earth has become so connected with Tolkien's tales that it is now rather spoilt for its orginal use.

By "the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea", Tolkien simply means Europe (along with the British Isles and other outlying islands).

Númenor is simply the legendary Atlantis.