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Isal Celebalda
01-05-2003, 04:24 PM
I've been pondering this for a while, and I haven't decided on my opinion but here is my question to you all... Did Tolkien mean for the Ilúvatar to know everything that will ever happen in Arda, thus meaning that its destiny was fixed from the beginning? Or did he wish for Eru to be characterised such that he would continually be changing the destiny and the future of the world?

In the Quenta Silmarilion, the Mandos is described as such:

...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.

So perhaps this suggests that the destiny is not fixed. However, we can examine it again, focusing on a certain word and our views may change:

...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar...

It suggests to me that perhaps there will come a day when the destiny will not be in the hands of Ilúvatar... but does that mean the future was originally open to the changes of Eru yet after a set time the future became fixed? Or does it mean it will always be open to the change or Eru right up to the end of time?

I'd like to think I've started a philosophical topic now, so get your beliefs and opinions rolling in.

Lantarion
01-08-2003, 01:15 PM
Welcome to the forum, Isal Silver-tree! :)
I'd say that Ilúvatar himself knows what will happen in the End, but what is in between he leaves up to the Valar, or to his own judgement. I'm pretty sure that he didn't know that Númenórë would come to the terribly evil times that it did, and so he was wrathful when he sank it, instead of pitying.
I like to think that Eru knows the basic scheme of things, but yet not all the happenings that occur. The Valar are not his puppets, who do only what Eru tells them or asks of them; they do what they believe is best for the world, while still listening to the counsels of Námo.

Arwen Halfelven
01-09-2003, 08:18 AM
This is my 1st time in this realm. I have just started to read The Silm again to refresh my memory.
I believe Eru-Iluvatar knows all but doesn't reveal all to the Valar. HE alone has control, but I believe that HE allows for free choice as part of that control. Eru-Iluvatar would never force Himself on any created being unless it were of utmost importance such as the destruction of something vital. HIS plan will be carried out even in ways that the Valar did not expect. HE was very patient with Melkor if you ask me!! Good thing that I'm not Eru!!!
I know, I need to keep reading the books over & over so I can get a full scope of the story.
Hantale, mellyn!!

Orodreth
01-16-2003, 02:44 AM
I'm not sure whether Eru knows exactly what is going to happen, but knows where the world is going to end up. I think that he might make up little details now and then to keep the world going to its final destination.

Lhunithiliel
01-16-2003, 07:45 AM
It's wonderful to see other people willing to comment on this philosophic matter.
And I think this thread treats the same questions, so what would you say if we unite in one of these two threads?

here it is (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8553)

Lhun :)