Guild of Elves: A discussion on Tolkien's intention for the destiny of Arda

[Isal Celebalda]

I've been pondering this for a while, and I haven't decided on my opinion but here is my question to you all... Did Tolkien mean for the Ilúvatar to know everything that will ever happen in Arda, thus meaning that its destiny was fixed from the beginning? Or did he wish for Eru to be characterised such that he would continually be changing the destiny and the future of the world?

In the Quenta Silmarilion, the Mandos is described as such:

...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.

So perhaps this suggests that the destiny is not fixed. However, we can examine it again, focusing on a certain word and our views may change:

...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar...

It suggests to me that perhaps there will come a day when the destiny will not be in the hands of Ilúvatar... but does that mean the future was originally open to the changes of Eru yet after a set time the future became fixed? Or does it mean it will always be open to the change or Eru right up to the end of time?

I'd like to think I've started a philosophical topic now, so get your beliefs and opinions rolling in.

[Eledhwen]

Ilúvatar created all things. He also created time and, like an artist who creates a painting, although he puts some of himself into it, he is wholly outside it and can view it in its entirety. Hence, he can see all man's activity and its effects, although he does not seek to control them, and although Ilúvatar knows all ends, it is man's free will that brings those ends about until the final end of all things which Ilúvatar himself will bring about.

[Maeglin]

Read this (http://www.tolkiendebates.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67&perpage=15&pagenumber=1), it provides some pretty good insight about this topic, though it is not entirely about this in specific, but read it anyway, its from the Tolkied Debates forum.

[Eöl]

My question is: Why give free choice if destiny is fixed? There would be no way it would work unless destiny was fixed. Obviously all the creatures have free choice, so I think that Eledwhen hits closest to the mark with the analogy about the painter and his work. He sees the whole but simply directs it from the beginning and then lets it flow. He may make corrections, and interventions like when Ulmo spoke to Tuor.

[Ramagna]

With this question I have always the music of the Ainur in my mind...
It was Eru who created them, and created as well their characters, but still there could be some free space of choice, how the music in detail would be, perhaps it was only the frame what had been determinated...
And furthermore, the music created the history of the world, but still it could be only the frame, and let space for decisions in the description of it...
And so the individuals living in EA had only certain abilities, and suffered consequences that they couldnt influence, but still there could be room for their own decisions...

[Finduilas]

First of all, let's concentrate on the word 'destiny' or 'fate'. It definetely includes some actionsand deeds that challange it. If there is no free choise how will the definition come? I mean destiny is deserved, non-deserved . So you should do something on your own.
Moreover, Eru wanted to create a WORLD including its good, bad aspects, characters, wars, revolts, etc.The main idea is that although he knew what would happen in the beginning he didn't know what would come after, or at least not certainly. He wanted to create people with their own history, believes, decisions.
To sum up, I claim that in the beginning the destiny of the entire Arda was fixed. However, Iluvatar let it live its almost own life and continue existing, because it means to have your own individuality.

[gilgalad]

I think that Eru knew all things that would happen from the beginning of the world to its end. This does not contend with the issue of free will because the fact that Eru knew what the Valar, Maiar, Elves, Men ect. would do does not mean that he dictated that they do it.

Remember that Ea was only a small thing to Eru, it was not his only point of focus, who knows what number of other worlds similar to Ea he had fashioned in the timeless halls.

I think he let the Valar off to their own devices with regard to how they would govern Ea, except for a few things, eg the time of the end of days and the fate of the elves after the end of days, yet still knew what they would choose to do.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by gilgalad
I think that Eru knew all things that would happen from the beginning of the world to its end. This does not contend with the issue of free will because the fact that Eru knew what the Valar, Maiar, Elves, Men ect. would do does not mean that he dictated that they do it.

Remember that Ea was only a small thing to Eru, it was not his only point of focus, who knows what number of other worlds similar to Ea he had fashioned in the timeless halls.

I think he let the Valar off to their own devices with regard to how they would govern Ea, except for a few things, eg the time of the end of days and the fate of the elves after the end of days, yet still knew what they would choose to do. I think you're right on your first point, but your second is true of the Chronicles of Narnia, not of Iluvatar, the God of Middle Earth. Tolkien mentions no other worlds. I think you're right on your third point too - the Valar had to learn to be overcomers, the same as every other race.

[Finduilas]

Remember that Ea was only a small thing to Eru, it was not his only point of focus, who knows what number of other worlds similar to Ea he had fashioned in the timeless halls.

Tolkien mentions no other worlds.

I think gilgalad is right. What do you suppose Eru has done before he created Ea or even before he created the Ainur?
As to the fact that Tolkien had not mentioned other worlds- can you imagine a person who manages to create entirely and beautifully two or more worlds in his life? He must be immortal.;)
So I think that Tolkien had tried to concentrate on Ea completely.

[Eledhwen]

Yes, Tolkien concentrated on one world because he was a Christian and a Catholic and a daily devotee. He probably believed the Creation Story in the Bible, which sees our earth as the focal point of creation. The furthest into space that Tolkien's stories travel is The Man in the Moon (Roverandom), and the creation of the Sun and Moon from the flowers of the Two Trees (Silmarillion) - note that the Sun and Moon are not viewed as a ball of flaming gas and a desolate satellite of earth, but are given mythological entities. You can't judge Tolkien's work by how you personally understand the universe. I repeat - Tolkien mentions no other worlds - they do not enter into his Middle Earth mythology. You are inventing your own story if you start saying Iluvatar was doing this and that, when Tolkien said nothing of the sort.

[Finduilas]

The furthest into space that Tolkien's stories travel is The Man in the Moon (Roverandom), and the creation of the Sun and Moon from the flowers of the Two Trees (Silmarillion) - note that the Sun and Moon are not viewed as a ball of flaming gas and a desolate satellite of earth, but are given mythological entities.

This is what I meant. He does create other worlds but their are not so well described and developed. Thus we can JUDGE that he had probbaly intended to perfect Eru's universe. However, a life is not long enough to create even one wolrd including its history, mythilogy, etc. How would elves, men, etc know about other worlds so that they can describe them in their mythology. 'Silmarillion', LOTR, etc. are works about Arda and although Tolkien hadn't mentioned other worlds it doesn't mean Eru can't have created them before or after. Do you think that before Arda, he had just sat there without doing anything? Or what do you think has happened after Tolkien's death? Has Arda, Middle-earth died?
I think that this is the heart of life- real or imaginative- developmant in diferent aspects and spheres.

You are inventing your own story if you start saying Iluvatar was doing this and that, when Tolkien said nothing of the sort.

OK, if you do not mention that you have had dinner today or you have written a poem, does it mean that you actually haven't done it?
IT's nothing different.

[gilgalad]

Originally posted by Eledhwen
I repeat - Tolkien mentions no other worlds - they do not enter into his Middle Earth mythology. You are inventing your own story if you start saying Iluvatar was doing this and that, when Tolkien said nothing of the sort.

If you insist on sticking rigidly to any work of literature in the way you are suggesting we do in this quote, then you kill the purpose of literature, ie to inspire, entertain and APPEAL TO THE IMAGINATION. The fact that Tolkien never mentioned any other world does not mean that Iluvatar was God only of ME, that was the Valar's job.

Eru was god in the timeless halls as well as ME, that's 2 realms already. The reason that other realms arn't mentioned in the chronicles of Arda is because that's just what they are: Chronicles of Arda. But to suggest that just because Tolkien didn't mention other worlds means we shouldn't speculate on their existance is, in my opinion, an over-simplistic, over- conservative view.