Expectations for RoTK

[Jav]

Hmmm, with the Success of TTT I bet that Peter Jackson won't wait TOO long to release RoTK. I have extremely high expectations for the film since TTT did so well. I was just wanting to know what you guys think that RoTK will be like. Do you think it will be as long as TTT?

[Thorin]

I believe that NLC will follow the same format for all three movies. RoTK will be about 3 hours long, will have an Extended Edition after it comes out and will gross as much as the last two.

I also expect many more changes. Changes to Aragorn and Saruman's character (to follow in sync with the changes made in the last two movies), changes in plot (death of Saruman, S&F&G's trek through Mordor), changes in character (Denethor, Faramir) and ending (I believe that Gollum will be shown as redeeming himself and throwing himself into the fire, rather than slipping in his joyful, selfish greed at retrieving the ring).

As I've said before, I sure hope that TTT was PJ's worst movie.

[Arwen]

Im guessing it will be the best out of the 3 films and will have the most emotional charged characters and story in it.Im guessing it will be longer than 3 hrs as well :)

[FoolOfATook]

(I believe that Gollum will be shown as redeeming himself and throwing himself into the fire, rather than slipping in his joyful, selfish greed at retrieving the ring).

I hope not. Number one, that would be completely out of character for both Gollum and the Ring. Number two, Gollum will be so far into "bad guy" territory at that point that I can't believe the audience would accept a redemption for Stinker (he'll have just led Sam and Frodo to Shelob and then bitten off Frodo's finger). I don't believe that PJ has the nerve to dare to alter the climax of the whole epic that drastically. Then again, he had the nerve to send Elves to Helm's Deep...

[Talimon]

With all due respect I was never comfortable with Gollum falling to his doom by mere chance. It almost felt "clumsy" to me, so to speak. I don't buy the arguement that the ring had any part to play in it, either. If anything it is Gollums over-joyed greed that destroys it, by chance nonetheless. To me it just doesn't sound like a very optimistic or fitting message to have Gollum ultimately fail in his trial. I know Tolkien himself had multiple endings, and one of them had Gollum "sacrificing" himself to destroy the ring. Personally I would prefer that.

[FoolOfATook]

Mere chance? I've always felt that Gollum didn't fall by mere chance, any more than Bilbo picked up the Ring by mere chance...

[Ariana Undomiel]

I do not think that Gollum finding redemption and throwing himself into the pit rather than falling would defeat Tolkien's purpose for Gollum. It is very clear in the story that Tolkien wanted a character who would represent a person who is corrupted by sin and who is in a constant struggle with the good and the bad within him. It is kind of like Jekyl and Hyde. But I think that Tolkien wanted also to show that sometimes the evil will win out but that ultimately good will come of it in some way. In this case the ring is destroyed. I think it was also is important to show that ultimately Frodo was corrupted by the ring almost to the breaking point and that with something so evil he COULD not get rid of it alone. But Gollum did not redeam himself and should not be given an opportunity for it in the film.

I personally also think that the movie is going to have to be more than three hours long unless they cut a lot out. Or they might make it three hours for the theatre and then have an hour of extended material. That would be nice.

Let's just wait and see what is going to happen.

- Ariana

[MacAddict]

Originally posted by Arwen
Im guessing it will be longer than 3 hrs as well.

It has to be longer that 3 hours. I don't see how they could fit all that has to fit in there (even with the changes) in 3hrs.

~MacAddict

[Thorin]

It's amazing that people complain about the inconsistencies of Tolkien's story, yet feel that Gollum redeeming himself is okay. Tolkien didn't use it for a reason. It wouldn't make sense. Just like he scrapped many other things for the same reason.

All through the last book, we see the pull that the ring has on Frodo to the point that Frodo (who is inherently good) after the long and dangerous journey to get to the Cracks of Doom, decides to not give up the ring when all he had to do was merely drop it.

Gollum has been lusting after the ring (possessed it for 500 years he did) and was completely corrupted both physically and mentally by the ring. We expect Gollum to just 'turn around' and jump in to save Frodo and end his miserable life when Frodo, after the brief time he had the ring, couldn't even handle the corruption?? I highly doubt it.

To me, that would be very inconsistent as a book or an adaptation. That would make Faramir letting the hobbits go in the movie seem small in comparison.

[PRH]

What does jumping into the fire have to do with desire for the Ring?

[Thorin]

Originally posted by PRH
What does jumping into the fire have to do with desire for the Ring?

Because book Gollum does not, nor WOULD not jump into the fire as everyone would like him too.

His desire for the ring is what brought the hobbits to Shelob's Lair. He is too far gone to sacrifice the ring once he gets his hand on it.

But it wouldn't surprise me. PJ has emascualted the power of the ring so many times in the last two movies, I'm sure that he would create a Hollywood ending. The way some of the dialogue went in the TTT, it feels like PJ is gearing up for it.

[PRH]

Gollum jumping into the fire does not defy the lust of the Ring. A suicide on Gollum's part circumnavigates this whole aspect. His desire for it is still satisfied. He is not giving it up for anyone or anything. He gets to take it with him to his doom.

[Thorin]

Originally posted by PRH
Gollum jumping into the fire does not defy the lust of the Ring. A suicide on Gollum's part circumnavigates this whole aspect. His desire for it is still satisfied. He is not giving it up for anyone or anything. He gets to take it with him to his doom.

Good point. However, I think Tolkien using the ending he did implies that had Gollum not slipped up in his delerious joy, he would have made a break for it to try and escape everyone with the ring.

If it is still a selfish move as you have pointed out, I could accept that. However, if it is shown as a struggle between Gollum and Smeagol debating what to do and Smeagol "wins" and deliberately jumps in to save Frodo, that would just be too cheesy and Hollywood.

As I said, with the way PJ has played out the whole "Smeagol/Gollum" debate, Frodo emphasising Smeagol's existence to Gollum, and Frodo's speech to Sam about believing Gollum could be brought back, makes me believe that PJ is heading in that direction.

[Rúmil]

Thorin did imagine Gollum throwing himself in voluntarily, but in his Letters he states that it would only be possible if he had redeemed before Cirith Ungol — the moment when he was nearly saved and Sam's hard word definively lost him.

I am not sure whether it would be so bad if Gollum jumped in; of course after having fallen so low, and having retrieved his Precious after over eighty years and in the joy of obtaining his prize at last, it would be all but incredible, and has the high risk of looking cheesy, but form a moral point of view it could be all right: sort of having Eru override the power of the Ring temporarily and making Gollum do the jump... but then it would have less moral value than having the destruction of the Ring result from a freely taken decision... On balance, although not the best solution, if it was done well, it might be quite good.

[Ariana Undomiel]

As I said, with the way PJ has played out the whole "Smeagol/Gollum" debate, Frodo emphasising Smeagol's existence to Gollum, and Frodo's speech to Sam about believing Gollum could be brought back, makes me believe that PJ is heading in that direction.

I actually doubt that PJ would make such a significant change in the story. Some might argue that he already has made too many, so why stop now, but I would argue that Gollum's fall into the fire is one too great to be ignored. I would hope that PJ would show better judgement than that.

"Because I have to believe he can come back." - Frodo

I think that this line is more a sign of Frodo's knowing that the ring is slowly taking control and that he hopes that when the ring is finally destroyed that what ever evil nature has come about within him self through the power of the ring will be able to be destroyed over time after the rings loss. I think it is an attempt to hang on to the hope that he will be able to return to his normal self again.

"And Frodo now begins to understand that the quest will claim his life. You know this. It is the risk we all took." - Galadriel

- Ariana

[Odo Proudfoot]

Even better would be if Sam pushed him in.

fG

[Ariana Undomiel]

Even better would be if Sam pushed him in.

Ummmmm ... no. Sam doesn't come across to me as someone who would actually up and up and kill Gollum. Remember in the book Sam had the opportunity to kill Gollum when he told Frodo to go on and leave him to deal with Gollum on the mountain side. But as Gandalf said once before, "It was pity that stayed his hand." Sam let Gollum go. If Gollum is to die, it will not be of Sam or Frodo's doing. At least I hope so.

- Ariana

[Wulf of Dunland]

I'd say that PJ holds to the Mt Doom story line like in the book.
That would be the best imo.

[Jav]

Sorry I havn't been on in a while, had some things to do. Anyway, I sure hope they don't make roTK too emotional coz if they do it will get boring.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Thorin
However, if it is shown as a struggle between Gollum and Smeagol debating what to do and Smeagol "wins" and deliberately jumps in to save Frodo, that would just be too cheesy and Hollywood.
Gollum: It's our's!
reverse camera angle, Smeagol looks at a teary-eyed Frodo clutching his hand.
Smeagol: Jump in now, and never develop fireproof skin.
reverse angle
Gollum: Whatchu talkin' 'bout Smeagol?!
reverse angle
Smeagol: Jump in now, and never develop fireproof skin!
reverse angle
Gollum: Grrrrr!!!
reverse angle
Smeagol: JUMP IN NOW, AND NEVER DEVELOP FIREPROOF SKIN!!!
reverse angle - Smeagol/Gollum walks to the edge, hold's his nose, bends at the knees and hops over the edge. After his is swallowed by the flames, Mt. Doom burps.

Yeah, that could very well suck! My whole point was that the accidental slipping of Gollum into the fire would come off as too cheesy too. It already reads cheesy, but visually I think it'd just die. Perhaps PJ and his brain trust will have come up with a decent way to coreograph this fall...if the change is not made.

[Odo Proudfoot]

The proven Hollywood way would be to have Frodo and Gollum struggle on the brink of the Crack of Doom. They roll over the floor, several times it almost seems as if they will fall in together....They get up again, push and pull at each other on the edge, Gollum with his back to the abyss....suddenly, Gollum bites, holds up the finger with the Ring in it, staggers, and falls backwards. In slow motion, obviously, whilst Frodo repeats his 'NOOOOOOOOOOO!' from Moria.

Odo

[ssgrif]

I have to agree with you Odo.

Typical hollywood ending and exactly what it says on the tin!

Sam pushing Gollum, Gollum jumping in like a lemming just doesnt sound right. PJ is a huge Tolkien fan so I'm hoping he'll just stick to the ending.

Its all well and good to mess about with the story in the middle, but it can have a huge impact on the adaptation as a whole if you mess about with the start or ending.

fingers crossed

[Jav]

O, so Gollum dies? I never knew that. I havnt read the RoTK book yet, just starting on FoTR.

[Lasgalen]

My guess is that too much time will be spent with Arwen and Aragorn so that some of the story will have to be cut out. Will the story end at Mt. Doom? Maybe the destruction of the ring will be the end of the movie and we won't get to see any of the after stuff like Grey Havens.

-Lasgalen

[Niniel]

No, they will definitely show the Grey Havens, so they can't end it at Mount Doom. I am curious about how they're going to let the Ring be destoyed. I agree Gollum just falling in reads cheesy and it will be cheesy on screen as well, so PJ must have changed it. I think he will let Gollum fall in while fighting with Frodo, as Odo said. Maybe Frodo himself will even fall in, but he'll be able to grip the edge and get rescued by Sam or something.

[Lasgalen]

Originally posted by Niniel
Maybe Frodo himself will even fall in, but he'll be able to grip the edge and get rescued by Sam or something.
That sounds sooo Hollywood. I bet you are right on that one.

I am glad to hear they will have Grey Havens.:) I would have been disappointed if it had ended at Mt Doom.

-Lasgalen

[Odo Proudfoot]

I have just been looking through History of ME, and it is interesting that JRR changed his mind several times on Gollum’s end. One of the first drafts sees him fall in, but several subsequent versions have Sam push him in. There is also one long draft outline where Gollum jumps in by himself.

This shows that the exact resolution of the story has not been not a foregone thing. I don’t know what PJ will eventually do, but there are precedents for anything apart from Frodo pushing him in.

Odo

[Mindy_O_Lluin]

Maybe PJ will do a Reichenbach Falls kind of thing.
Frodo and Gollum struggle and go over the edge together............. long pause ............, Sam get's that 'Oh NOOO' look on his face, then goes to look over the edge and see's Frodo saved by a ledge.
Humm. PJ never did use that ledge drop in the hill's of Emyn Muil where Frodo gets stuck on a ledge and Sam gets to use his rope. Maybe he'll put it here.

[Niniel]

ROTFL:)
He'd better not do that...

[moon cloud]

maybe it will go all Indiana Jones and have gollum falling over the side, compassionate little frodo grabbing his hand but their fingers slipping away and gollum falling with a final scream of 'preciousssssss'.

[Niniel]

OMG!! Please no... I didn't know there were so many ways that scene could be shot so completely wrong.

[Odo Proudfoot]

Maybe Sauron sees Frodo put on the Ring, jumps in his jeep and races to Mount Doom to stop him. He screeches to a halt but misjudges the braking distance and shoves Gollum into the Crack of Doom.

Just an idea I had :o

Odo

[Foe-Hammer]

I always wondered why gandalf didn't get gwahire (?) the eagle to fly frodo over mount doom with a elf made bomb site and drop that baby in from 20,000 feet.

[Jav]

Whoa, thats an interesting point ya got there. It would be alot easier that way, wouldn't it?

[FoolOfATook]

Oh no, not the "why didn't they ride an eagle to Mount Doom" bit again. I'm much more tired of this than the Balrog debate. Short answer(s): 1)The eagles don't work that way. 2) Subtlety and secrecy were the order of the day when the Fellowship snuck out of Rivendell- their hope was in Sauron completely missing the Ring Bearer as he snuck into Mordor. 3) Sauron would probably have had all nine Nazgul waiting to meet the Eagle(s) and Ring Bearer(s), and given them a proper Mordor welcome.

[Odo Proudfoot]

I for one do think that the 'Eagles Alternative' is a valid point, and indeed a plot hole. The objections raised against it are not strong and look a bit desperate.

If the Eagles are willing to carry Gandalf on several occasiosn, and even Frodo himself after the Ring is destroyed, I really don't see why they would not be willing to do this right in the beginning. Had they set out from Rivendell immediately after the Council, they would have gotten there before the Nazgul made it back to Mordor and received their winged steeds.

I am also quite happy to ignore the whole problem. A plot hole like this is the price we have to pay for having such a great story. Just like the Nazgul were temporarily written out of the story after the Ford of Bruinen.

Odo

[Jav]

I have to agree with Odo again on that. The objections or arguements made against the plot hole do look a bit desperate, and I feel it was a mistake on Tolkien's part. I don't think, personally, that he even for one second thought about that and said "Hm, Well...I guess the Nazgul would just be there waiting for them."

[Odo Proudfoot]

Yes, if he had realised the hole, someone could have proposed this solution at the Council (Frodo?), and someone else could then have brought up some valid-sounding objections (Gandalf?). That way the issue would never had come up.

I think he simply overlooked it. No big deal, though.

Odo

[Jav]

Yup, everybody makes mistakes, even Tolkien. :cool:

[ssgrif]

I wont go down the route and point out the obvious fact about this "eagle" loophole, that what a boring book it would have made if Tolkien had the ring sent to mount doom by air! would have been a very short book too!

My thoughts are more to do with the origins of the mighty eagles. The eagles were sent to middle earth to keep an eye on the people (noldor) by the Valar Manwe.

I tend to think that the race of eagles were more than just birds. You see Gandalf and Galadriel in both the books and the movies stating that they would weild the power of the one ring for good, but it would only turn them to greater evil.

Maybe this would also have happened if the likes of Thorondor or Gwaihir had came into contact with the ring, that they would have succumbed to its evil power.

:)

[Jav]

Thats a pretty good arguement too. I have to think about that one. But I dont think so because the bird isnt the one with the ring, it is still Frodo. So it wouldnt be able to control the eagles.

[Rúmil]

Take it logistically:

— First, Frodo & Sam succeeded by secrecy. What do you do if you see a eagle 180 feet accross swerving through the air? shoot it. Seach corpse. Find Ring. 'Nuff said.

—Second, Sammath Naur is a chamber. How do you get a 180-feet spanning eagle into a chamber? You don't. You use hobbits. You need a passenger anyway. It ends in a transposition of the problem.

— Third, as appears is in the episode of Gandalf at Orthanc ("how far can you bear me? Many miles, but not to the ends of the earth." or something like) Rivendell-Mordor is at least ten journeys, with a few days stop each time in between. An Eagle is very noticeable at take-off and landing, and needs to be protected when they're lying ewhausted on the ground. So you need a small band, at least ten or twenty. Are there enough eagles to carry ten or twenty passengers? There are only two Giant Eagles, Gwaihir and Ladroval. Too many passengers.

—Fourth, even if they avoided Mordor's servants by the way, avoided being shot while approching over Mordor, the Eagle has to land somewhere before Sammath Naur in order to allow hobbits to proceed to chamber. The Eagle is spotted at least ten minutes before landing. Sauron turns his eye to it. Sees Ring. Percieves Mission. Sends troops (poss. Nazgûl, and supporting foot-troops) to protect area. So you need to carry a whole army eagle-back.


No matter how you look at it, you can't use eagles.




The problem is, why didn't they use Eagles part of the way? Well... maybe they were busy...

[Rúmil]

of course, now it occurs to me that the real reason would be this:

The Eagles are the subjects of manwë, right? Well, Manwë wanted the final destruction of the last Dark Lord to be more or less exclusively the work of the Free People (Gandalf was just a helper and mover); If the Eagles had helped Frodo, Frodo would have looked like a passenger and the Eagle would have been the hero: the hero also had to be a Man (or counted so), whose dominion was about to begin; and it was also supposed to be a revenge of the small against the mighty. So Manwë must have instructed the Eagles to play only a secondary part in all those matters.

[Jav]

Whoa! I feel...so insignificant now. Muhahaha~

[Niniel]

I agree with most of what you say, but I believe there are more than two eagles. Gandalf says to Gwaihir: 'Then come, and let your brother go with us, and some other of your folk who is swift!' And then Gwaihir flies to Mount Doom with Landroval and Meneldor. So there must be at least three eagles and maybe more.
But, we're losing track of the subject of this thread.

[Heathertoes]

Getting back to the thread, I think that, based on the evidence of the first two films, the Cracks of Doom scene will go on for a while, with a fair bit of desperate hanging on by one or more characters.
Of course that's assuming the ring actually gets destroyed in this version....

[FoolOfATook]

I heard that Arwen, with an honour guard of Elves of Lorien, destroys the Ring. There's another scene where Gimli tries to, but he's just too short, and hilarity ensues. Upon hearing about his daughter's triumph, Elrond scowls a lot. ;)

[Heathertoes]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I heard that Arwen, with an honour guard of Elves of Lorien, destroys the Ring. There's another scene where Gimli tries to, but he's just too short, and hilarity ensues. Upon hearing about his daughter's triumph, Elrond scowls a lot. ;)
Well it'll have to end like that. Tolkien's version probably doesn't work in a film.;)

[BlackCaptain]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I hope not. Number one, that would be completely out of character for both Gollum and the Ring. Number two, Gollum will be so far into "bad guy" territory at that point that I can't believe the audience would accept a redemption for Stinker (he'll have just led Sam and Frodo to Shelob and then bitten off Frodo's finger). I don't believe that PJ has the nerve to dare to alter the climax of the whole epic that drastically. Then again, he had the nerve to send Elves to Helm's Deep...

Knowing PJ, hell probly have Legolas come to Mordor and have him destroy the Ring and Gollum. And while he's at it, hell to another matrix move. I dont expect PJ to keep the destruction of the Ring the same as in the books. Allthough, PJ is adding the story of Smeagol and Deagol into ROTK, or the EE. I'd really like to see Gollum throw himself in though. I know it woulnd follow the book, but it would be so sad! I love Gollum! He's the coollest charecter in the book!

[Jav]

Yea, Gollum is really cool. He looks like a little boy and a very old man mixed. ;)

[Remnant]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I heard that Arwen, with an honour guard of Elves of Lorien, destroys the Ring. There's another scene where Gimli tries to, but he's just too short, and hilarity ensues. Upon hearing about his daughter's triumph, Elrond scowls a lot. ;)

<Maybe lord Elrond should get off his high horse and do it himself ... :) >

You'll notice he has advice for everyone; and he is sucsessfully messing up their lives .. :"(
Come on Elrond do something in the last movie!!! PJ said it is about fathers and sons ... Since his 2 sons have all but vanished ... Enter Aragorn!!!!
Pretend Aragorn is the son you raised since he was 2 years old and act like his father ! Oh you did raise him? :)

[FoolOfATook]

Peter Jackson said that the films were about fathers and sons?

Hoom.

Frodo- His father drowned when Frodo was young
Sam- His father is a minor, albeit lovable, character
Pippin- I can't even think of his father's name
Merry- Ditto
Aragorn- His father, Arathorn, died when Aragorn was a child
Gimli- His father shows up for one scene, and their relationship is never really commented on
Legolas- We met his father in The Hobbit, but Tharandul (I just know I misspelled that....) is only really mentioned in the Appendices
Boromir- Okay, I'll give you this one
Faramir- Ditto
Denethor- So that's one key father/sons relationship...
Theoden- His son is already dead when we meet him
Elrond- His two sons are minor characters, and their relationship with their father is never meaningfully discussed. The only reference to Earendil of any note is in Bilbo's song
Gollum- He was raised by his grandmother. I can't remember any reference to his father
Saruman, Gandalf, Sauron- Maiar, without "fathers"
Bilbo- His mother is mentioned a few times in the Hobbit, and I think that his father might have built Bag End, but that's all I can think of
Wormtongue- No reference to a father
Eomer, Eowyn- They were raised with Theoden as their father figure, I believe

Yeah Peter, LOTR is really about fathers and sons :rolleyes:

[MikeB]

Thought I read somewhere that Tolkien disparaged of adding eagles to the tale but after publication when it was too late to remove them. Am I making this up?

[Rúmil]

Yes, there is a quotation from his letters that tends to suggest that he regrets having used them; at least he says he made the strict minimum use of them.

[Lúthien Séregon]

Just had a thought about the "gollum-falling-into-the-cracks-of-mount-doom" plot:

Instead of Smeagol falling into Mount Doom, instead Aragorn somehow manages to find his way through Mordor and grabs the Ring to toss it into the fire, but instead ends up falling over the edge of the cliff, during which we get another sequence with him and Arwen :rolleyes:

Sorry about that, really couldn't resist.:p

On a more serious note, I still think that Gollum will fall into the the fire by accident as he does his dance of joy...I don't think PJ would change such a climax in the film.

[Heathertoes]

Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon

On a more serious note, I still think that Gollum will fall into the the fire by accident as he does his dance of joy...I don't think PJ would change such a climax in the film.
If only I could share your confidence.

[balrog]

Originally posted by Arwen
Im guessing it will be the best out of the 3 films and will have the most emotional charged characters and story in it.Im guessing it will be longer than 3 hrs as well :)

This is also my hope and expectation, however after seeing TTT I was quite disappointed, it would be refreshing if less story changes occur.

[Jav]

I have the books but really havn't gotten the time to read them yet because of school and all. But in what ways did the story line change?