The Elven lords of old and Galadriel

[Thorin]

I wonder what the great elven lords (Feanor, Fingolfin, Finwe, Finarfin) must have been like?

In LoTR you get such a sense of awe and power when Galadriel is mentioned and portrayed. You can't help but be swept away in her beauty and majesty (Which is why I vehemently protest Blanchett as Galadriel. (Ick) Yet, in Sil and UT it mentions Galadriel as more of a background person (though it does say she was the most noble of the female elves). She seems to pale in significance and importance to the rest of them.

If Galadriel creates that kind of enchantment in LoTR, can you imagine what the majesty and awesome wonder the Elven lords of old created? Wow!

[Grond]

Let me tell you Thorin! Fingolfin was absolutely the most awesome elf/king/warrior/bad-ass that this hammer has ever seen. Riding up and pounding on the door of Angband itself, screaming for my boss to come out. Man, was Mel scared that day. He realized that Fin had already come the whole way kickin' butt... no one could stop him. He was hiding under his throne, when he realized everyone was watching him. He pretended he was looking for a penny that he dropped and kind of said "Well, I guess I'll have to go deal with this little interuption." Let me tell you though, he was nearly wettin' his britches.

Then my master crept up from his pit, where Fingolfin berated him with craven words. Fingolfin's hair billowed in the wind, his sword Ringil glittered as it was drawn, and his blue shield sparkled in the sun. My master struck at him, but he jumped aside... I gouged a huge pit in the earth. Again and again and again, I was wielded and smote into empty earth and each time Fingolfin countered my master's stroke with a wounding strike. Seven times did Melkor strike and miss and seven times Fingolfin countered with a strike that brought black blood from my master.

At the last, Fingolfin tired and Melkor bore down upon him. My master trapped Fingolfin under his mighty foot and began to crush him. With his last dying strength, Fingolfin hewed at my master and smote him on the foot with Ringil. A gaping wound from which Melkor never recovered. He was wont to limp on that leg ever after. A daily reminder of the truest and greatest elf lord of all ages of Middle Earth.

At least that's how I see it... and I was there!

[DGoeij]

Just imagine how everybody in M-E, at the end of the Third Age, was trembling by the mere thought that Sauron would retrieve the One Ring. At least all the Free People for sure. And even without Sauron did not seem to have that much trouble holding out in Mordor. Although he was driven out of Dol Goldur, but even that was a mere diversion.
And that while in the times of the wars in Beleriand, a single Elf (not just some Elf, but still, one) took on mr. Morgoth himself for some no-holds-barred one on one combat and cutting him up pretty badly.
And the might of Numenor, wich brought Sauron down, even imprisoning him? Those were the days of splendour and glorious heroes.
Funny really that this epic story like Lord of the Rings is actually the aftermath of thousands of years of struggle with the Enemy. For me it just keeps on capturing my imagination, story after story and legend after legend. Absolutely great.

[Flame of Utumno]

I don't really think they were that crash hot. You only mention the Kings of the Noldor. I think that the Royal family of the Vanyar (Ingwe etc) would have been even more astounding to behold. (Galadriel only got her golden hair from the Vanyar side of her family).

[Grond]

Alas dear Flame, the Vanyar may have been the most fair and valiant in the world... but that we'll never know, for little tale is made of the Vanyar in the chronicles of the Silmarillion. Only the descendants of Finarfin and Earwen have heroic roles and the text identifies them too, as Noldor through their father and not Vanyar through their mother.

All the children of Finarfin were valiant and none greater than Finrod Felagund, King of Nargothrond who died while defending Beren in the pits of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. But, Finrod was slain by a mere werewolf of Sauron, whereas Fingolfin caused all evil to flee in his path and ultimately faced Morgoth/Melkor by himself. He alone of any race save the Ainur, dealt Morgoth a wound. Even Beren and Luthien dared not stike Melkor, even when he was asleep. I feel that my case for Fingolfin is justified and hope my humble attempt to pesuade you, O Flame of Utumno, has succeeded.

[Flame of Utumno]

Grond,
You write too poetically for a hammer.
Yes, I think Fingolfin is probably the most heroic and courageous of the Noldor, but my personal hero among the Noldor is Finrod Felagund. Only he had the high morals to sacrifice his life for a man (when saving Beren).

[Grond]

Aye Flame. Long did the heat of thy flame warm Grond in the depths of Melkor's pit ere the Sun shone.

I will give thee that Finrod of all his people of Nargothrond was the only one "Elf" enough to honor their obligations. He showed great courage not only in sacrificing himself for Feanor but also in forsaking his kingdom for honor. It is easy to see that from this line came Galadriel and Arwen Evenstar.

[Brent]

I agree with the Hammer and the Flame. Fingolfin has to be the ultimate lord but Fin has a certain charisma about him and he seemed to get on with everybody, Elves, men (ring of Barahir and helping Beren) and the Dwarves since they gave him the name Felagund and the Nauglamir !!

[¤-Elessar-¤]

Grond, Fingolfin is my fav character too, alas, why did melkor have to kill him, he would had kicked Saurons ass!

[Lord Glorfindel]

I would say that Glorfindel of Rivendell embodies some of the characteristics of the Elven lords of old, especially if he is indeed Glorfindel of Gondolin returned from the halls of Mandos.

[Grond]

Aye Lord Glorfindel. They are one in the same according to the later writings of JRRT found in the Histories of Middle-earth, The Peoples of Middle-earth. In it he describes Glorfindel's fall in Gondolin and then tracks him back to the Halls of Mandos where he is given a new body (looks the same) and stays for a time in Aman. There he befriends a Maia (none other than Olorin) and comes back to Middle-earth during the early parts of the Third Age around the year 1000, about the same time as the Blue Wizards arrive also.

[Lord Glorfindel]

This response is for Grond (since I don't know how to reply to his message). I agree that the information you stated about Glorfindel was published in Return of the Shadow, and maybe elsewhere, but your post raises the issue of how notes of the Professor are to be accepted. Considering how many notes Tolkien authored, it is hard to decide how to treat them and whether or not to consider them part of the Vision. However, since Glorfindel is one of my favorite characters, I would like to consider those notes as accepted.

[Grond]

You are absolutely correct that these were "jottings" of Tolkien. These jottings were edited and organized by his son Christopher who claims they were the definitive word from his father. I don't think we'll get any closer than that and I assume that JRRT's son knows of what he speaks, especially since so many of these later JRRT thoughts contradict or (explain further) ideas in the earlier completed works.

One must understand that JRRT was constantly seeking to bring consistency and uniformity to the works and that meant giving more explanation in some instances and in some instances, actually changing past writing, as is the case with the Blue Wizards.

I must agree that more credence should be given the completed works Middle-earth by the author which, alas, are only The Hobbit and TLotR. The Silmarillion and all later publications were done without the author's input, so cannot be considered a "true" reflection of how the author might or might not have presented them.:)

[Feanor]

"Only the descendants of Finarfin and Earwen have heroic roles and the text identifies them too, as Noldor through their father and not Vanyar through their mother."

That is partly correct, Finarfin's wife was the daughter of Olwe brother of Elwe(Thingol). That is why the house of Finarfin was allowed into Doriath.
So descendants of Finarfin (1/2 Noldor/ 1/2 Vanyar) and his wife (Teleri) were actually : 1/4 Noldor 1/4 Vanyar and 1/2 Teleri !!!
But Tolkien gives a heavier weighting on the paternal side so they are still considered Noldor 1st.



The house of Fingolfin is 1/2Vanyar (mother) and 1/2Noldor (Finwe)

Only house of Feanor is pure Noldo.

Yes Finrod did fall at the hands of 'just a werewolf' but we have to remember that at the time he was a prisoner of Sauron trapped in one of his pits w no weapon or armour and this after a v long journey. And the werewolf was slain too! Not as mighty as Fingolfin but still nothing to laugh at.

[Grond]

Alas, dear Feanor.... I rank the bravery and deeds of Finrod Felagund second only to Fingolfin. There was never a truer friend or oath-keeper than Finrod, brother of Galadriel....:)

[Sangahyando]

Hey, don't forget about my favourite character: Cirdan the Shipwright. For a start he was a powerful aid to Elwe Singollo before the Noldorin Exiles returned to Beleriand, his ships were some of those that rivalled that of Kopas in Aman.

He accomplished so much:

The bolstering of forces at the Mouths of Sirion

His building of the seven ships for Turgon who sent Voronwe Aranwion, which ended up guiding Tuor to Gondolin

He had possibly awakened at Koivie-neni near the Orocarni

He allowed Mithlond and Lindon to remain strong

Cirdan was a lieutenant of Gil-galad Ereinion at Dagorlad

He carried Narya until he gave it to Mithrandir, and

The Falathrim of Cirdan had achieved a lasting alliance with all three Elven Kindreds

Alas, I almost forgot, he supplied the pearls for the Nauglamir!!

Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper

[Ithrynluin]

She seems to pale in significance and importance to the rest of them.

If Galadriel creates that kind of enchantment in LoTR, can you imagine what the majesty and awesome wonder the Elven lords of old created? Wow!

Galadriel, along with Feanor, was the greatest of the Noldor in Valinor. She definitely does not pale in comparison to the elves you mention.

Oh, and Grond, you're about as adamant in Fingolfin promotion as I am with Galadriel. ;)

[Erestor Arcamen]

Well, my favorite character in LOTR has to be Erestor, little is written of him other than at the Council of Elrond, where he suggested that the ring be sent to Tom Bombadil, but when this suggestion was discouraged, he then said the Ring must be hidden or destroyed. After the War of the Ring he traveled wit the rest of Elrond's household to the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn.

In the Silmarillion, my favorite charactor whould be Elu Thingol, king of Doriath, high king of the Sindar. Father of Luthien the fair, husband to Melian, Thingol has a very big role in the Silmarillion.

[Ingwë]

My favourite Tolkien character is Galadriel. Indeed she was the greatest among the Noldor, or maybe among the Elves since she had the blood of the three kindrers of the Elves - her grandmother - Finarfin's mother - was Indis (Vanya), and her mother was Earwen (Teler). Here is one of my favourite pictures of Galadriel. Indeed she looks great ;)

[Inderjit S]

I am surprised that Feanor hasn't been mentioned much, even though he was the greatest of all the Elves....(stated on several occasions by Tolkien, though has been compared to Thingol, Luthien and Galadriel, he is certainly "in potency" the greatest of all the Elves)...not only that but his creation of the Silmarils was one of the greatest work in the history of Arda. And as for his "Say this to Manwe Sulimo" speeh in Tirion...I wish I was there!

[Ingwë]

Indy! Where are you now? I haven't talked to you for ages!

Indeed, Fëeanor hasn't been mentioned though he's the main character in the history of Arda :)
I want to post this picture, I found it today and I really like it:

[Finrod Felagund]

i don't think Maedhros has yet had a mention. He was a great guy who was strong willed and definitly along with Maglor one of the nicer of his six brothers. i don't think he really wanted to swear the oath, but couldn't refuse because he was Feanor's heir and was probably scared of Feanor in a way. In my opinion he was a nice elf put in the wrong circumstances. Maybe had he been a son of Fingolfin he would of been a more well-liked person. He did many great things such as renouncing his kingship of the Noldor to Fingolfin (begging forgiveness from the people his father dispised) and the union of Maedhros (a brave attempt). He also stood aside while the ships were being burned at Losgar and when Celegorm's servants left Dior's twin sons to die in the forest, Maedhros went on a long and fruitless search to bring them back to safety. Although he did terrible things he only did them because he was driven by the oath he so desperatly didn't want to break.

[Ithrynluin]

Welcome to TTF, Finrod Felagund.

You make an excellent case for Maedhros, and I am certainly seeing him in a whole new light.

[Grond]

Welcome to TTF, Finrod Felagund.

You make an excellent case for Maedhros, and I am certainly seeing him in a whole new light.I still visualize Maedhros and his brother slaughtering good elves in the camp of Eonwe to recover the Silmarils.

Then I visualize Fingolfin battling Melkor face to face.

'Nuff said.

Cheers,

grond

[Finrod Felagund]

i wasn't saying he was a greater elf lord that Fingolfin, i just thought he deserved a mention among the great Elven lords of old.

[Grond]

I know where you're coming from. Maedhros would definately have been among the great elves had he not been the offspring of the most evil elf of all. Alas, one can't choose one's parents but one can choose your on path. Maedhros (and all of his brothers) could have chosen differently and taken a path apart from their father.

Where is my old pal Maedhros to defend himself and his dad. :)

Finrod, my comments are not made in any way at you. I am simply trying to bait my old friend, Maedhros out of hiding in Panama or wherever he is these days. He posted a few days ago but he should be jumping all over this thread.

Cheers,

grond