The Round Table

[Lhunithiliel]

GREETINGS!!!

I suggest this thread as the place where all the Guild-members can put forward their ideas about new things to be done and discuss or/and criticise the on-going activities in the Guild.

Every new idea will be registered and in the due time implemented. Every fault made will be corrected...
The Guild is our community. So, we need to be together in its activities, don't we.
*********************

To open it, I would like to summon all of you and say that I think the Guild needs more good topics of discussion. There have not been one for weeks and weeks!
Suggestions?
Put them forward here :)

[Hirila]

... as already said by gate7ole earlier
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gate7ole
NEW DEBATE
It's about time we started a new debate. Everyone interested in paricipating or judging should post here or PM me. QUOTE]


I have an idea for a discussion:

Imagine you came back into the Shire after a year's absence:
What would the situation in the Shire have been if Saruman hadn't come there?

Team A: Situation would have been much the same.
Team B: Situation would have been as normal as hobbit life can be.



I know it is not a very academic topic but I think it has enough in it to start a lively debate. I will be happy to be a judge in this. Unfortunately I do not have the time to actively take part in a debate.

[gate7ole]

Excellent idea Lhun!

Hirila, thank you for reminding the DEBATE.
Since a new brother-forum opened that deals with debates, some people may don't want to participate in a debate inside our guild. Personally I want to and if a sufficient number of people volunteers (at least 6 participants and 3 judges), we can organize it.
About your subject Hirila, it is interesting, but... you shouldn't have told it before organizing the two groups. Maybe, you can find another subject and reveal it when the time comes;)

[FoolOfATook]

I've got too much on my plate to work on crafting an argument, but I'd be more than willing to act as a judge.

[Gil-Galad]

Well,what about essays?!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a suggestion.Can we do a new thread about essays and every two week or every week a new topic will be posted.?
We can also discuss everybody's essay if there are intersting ideas in it or if there are any disagreements.
What would you say about that idea?

[Húrin Thalion]

Well Gil-Galad, I don't know about that, must a new topic be introduced every two weeks? I could write an acceptable essay in two hours that my teachers would applaud but I would not. Writing an essay if you want it to be good must be given more time than two weeks for me, it hurts and feels good when I write, it is a process of slow development. Otherwise it is a good idea, encouraging writing and creative thinking about Tolkien's works. You could also have a time limit for each topic but allow people to post their essays after the expiration of time.

Húrin Thalion

[Gil-Galad]

I see your point and I completely agree with you.What would yuo say about a new topic every month?That would give the chance to think in depth about the topic and also more people would take part in the process of writing and may post their essays.

[Húrin Thalion]

Sounds good but would it be okay to post after time expiration also? Start it as soon as you can, looking forward to it!

Húrin Thalion

[Gil-Galad]

Yes,why not!
I'll think carefully about it and I'll start it next week!!!!

[Lhunithiliel]

Excellent idea!
I, too, think that a topic should be given more time. One month is OK!

[Mrs. Maggott]

The response time to topics under discussion would also depend upon the person responding. For instance, if someone has already done some research and written on something that has never been posted on the forum, he or she would be able to post quite rapidly, all the work having been done. On the other hand, another person starting from "scratch", would need more time.

But certainly, the idea of presenting in a shortened (not lecture) length, topics of interest - serious or otherwise - would be very illuminating. For instance, I for one would like to see an in-depth look at Denethor sometime before the release of ROTK. Denethor is an extremely complex character about whom most have rather ambilvalent feelings. I would like very much to hear (read) what the very learned members of this Guild have to say about him so that when I view the film (always assuming I'm still around by then), I can make an informed judgment of the Director's version of the character. Right now I know what I "feel" about him, but I would much prefer drawing conclusions based upon knowledge rather than mere emotion.

[Lhunithiliel]

I say.... Why, do you think, good discussion-topics do NOT get good development within our Guild?:rolleyes:

Because... It IS true! Some very good discussion-topics have been offered by some members and a few people have posted and then...... the interest dies away.
And there is hardly anyone from "outer space" that peeps in a thread IN the Guild to post.

This problem has bothered me before and I see it still persists...

Well?

Your opinions?

What actually I would like to achieve out of discussing this particular question is to see if we can do something to change this "status quo". :rolleyes:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I say.... Why, do you think, good discussion-topics do NOT get good development within our Guild?:rolleyes:

Because... It IS true! Some very good discussion-topics have been offered by some members and a few people have posted and then...... the interest dies away.
And there is hardly anyone from "outer space" that peeps in a thread IN the Guild to post.

This problem has bothered me before and I see it still persists...

Well?

Your opinions?

What actually I would like to achieve out of discussing this particular question is to see if we can do something to change this "status quo". :rolleyes:
I really haven't been a Guild member (or even on the forum) long enough to answer that question. I would assume, however, that much of the problem of interest has to do with the ongoing debates referable to the films. They seem to be taking up most of the energy (including mine) among those posting. And, of course, there is only so much time for such activities, so if you are constantly posting on the film threads, naturally there will be a dearth of posts elsewhere.

Perhaps our new lecture series will give interest a boost and get us back on track. Then again, we can always be thankful that there is only one more film to go! ;)

[Hirila]

Now, I can honestly say that there is only one thread about the film where I have posted. But then I do not spend entire days on the forum. I really do not have the time for this. And I prefer posting in the Guild. :cool:

But perhaps we can boost the Guild with another debate. And a quite interesting, IMHO.

With permission of Lhun I present another idea:

"Imagine the elves at Cuivienen at the very beginning. What would have happened if the Valar hadn't come there?"

I already have the opposite sides in mind, we could choose between a dialectical debate (two sides) and an experiment: a debate with three sides. But that should be discussed with the potential judges before opening it.
As for all of you taking one or other side now: the opposites won't be revealed until the debate is started and the participants are divided into groups.

And as for the whole of it: we'll wait until our Guild Master is back and Lhun and gate7ole have the time to pay attention to debates.

[gate7ole]

I don’t agree that the low interest of discussions inside the guild is the result of the talks about the film. This situation existed also before the arrival of the film at the cinemas.
My opinion is that a guild is not the right place to start a discussion. The other sections of the forum (e.g. book sections) are more appropriate for many reasons:
1. Many more people look at the discussion and participate if it is posted outside the guild.
2. If the discussion deals with a “non-popular” subject, it is difficult to interest people among the guild only.
3. Most of the “experts” on Tolkien are not members of our guild and their contribution is important in the unfolding of any discussion.

So, if the discussions should be posted outside the guild, then what would it contain? The answer is simple: activities that demand a certain group of people that will participate on a constant basis. E.g. we have the lectures that start today, essays, debates, Quenya courses, others have RPGs etc.

My conclusion is obvious. The discussions cannot be held within a guild and have the best outcome. This will only be done if at least half the members of the guild participate in most discussions (which is another difficult topic to discuss).

Hirila:
Your proposal is very interesting. But I have invited two times the guild members for a new debate, but there was no interest at all. As long as only a couple of people want to participate in a debate, we cannot organize it. Let's see though if this third time more people will want to join the debate.

[FoolOfATook]

Gate7ole's comments are along the same line as some things that I've been thinking about with the Guild, and our relation to the larger forum. Now, I'm a Young Turk in this guild, joining in late December or earlier this month, if I recall, but I still have had time to notice the issues that are being debated here. As far as I know, there is only one area in which our Guild has a clearly defined relationship with the outside world, and that is a relationship with the Guild of Scholars, as rival debating Guilds, however if I'm unaware of others, I wouldn't be surprised. This, to me, leads to the question: what does it mean to be a Guild member? I think that a very clearly and precisely defined answer to that question would go some way in addressing some of the concerns that I've seen raised.
I think that there are a couple of things going on in the Guild right now that I see as positive developments in developing an identity for the Guild within the larger forum- The Silmarillion Guide that Nom is heading up, the course in Quenya, and hopefully the lecture series that has just gotten under way. All of these are examples of ways in which we can put our studies of Tolkien to use in encouraging others in their own study of JRRT. The way I see it, the Guild is better served in reaching out to the rest of the forum, rather than in attempting to generate internal debate, the problems of which Gate7ole has already illuminated. Just some thoughts, written at 4:00 AM. ;)

[gate7ole]

FoolOfATook,
I think that my last post was misunderstood. I am not against the debates. With the discussions is that I see a problem. The debates are a special version of discussion among people assigned to participate. There are teams that work together, organize their arguments and most importantly study before posting. Unfortunately, many times people (myself included) post without researching a bit first. The competitive spirit of a debate helps to raise the level of discussion and possibly reach a conclusion. Also, it’s challenging to prove a statement that you originally are against.
IMO the debate is probably the most important activity of our guild. It defeats the Lectures, because the latter are the result of one’s work alone, more prone to errors. It is sad, well, not to see any disposition for an internal debate. It is also sad that the best discussions are limited among a small number of participants (but that’s another story).
The role of the guild is not to reach the rest of the forum. They are welcome any time to participate. Its role is to organize activities that interest the members and form its identity as a guild of Tolkienologists – not experts on the matter, but people willing to become such. Of course, efforts to “teach” the beginners should also be part of the guild’s activities. So, the three activities of our guild you mentioned are excellent.
But still, we lack the “core” of activities: the debates. And since you mentioned it, there is another debating guild, with which in the past months there was communication: The Ost-in-Edhil.

PS. This is not my guild, it is Grond’s guild. Thus, the above thoughts don’t show the way the guild will proceed, but how I would like it to proceed. When Grond comes back, he will clarify his intentions. There are the tests coming and possibly some major change in the members list.

[Lhunithiliel]

gate7ole, the Guild is OURS, not just Gronds!:p Right, Master Grond....wherever you are?

and
I

MISS

THE

DEBATES !!!!!!

All that you've said about the debates is true. That's why I miss them! Besides, these activities form a spirit of co-operation between the guild - members! We have to do things TOGETHER.

[Húrin Thalion]

I would just like to explain what I meant with starting those discussions, I did so in the thought that we were a guild where we all could learn from eachother and I thought that discussions would be a good way. I know see that either this is not a guild for people to learn or that discussions are not a good way. to learn. I apologize if anyone was offended by such a bad attempt to do anything at all here.

Húrin Thalion

[Lhunithiliel]

There is truth in what you're saying, Hurin.
The three quoted activities are more individual. Even the essay-activities are individual.
While the debates make us a team and definitely make us learn and improve in knowledge.
And I think if we are to have debates, they should be (or most of them) directly orientated to the content of the books.

[gate7ole]

What are you talking about Húrin? You were the last person to whom what I told was referring. The problem is not with the posting of topic for discussions. The problem is with the limited participation. Check your –wonderful- topics. How many replied? Do you think that 3 or 4 voices are enough to cover such deep subjects? I do not. That is why I think that such threads belong to the general forum, so that everyone will participate.
Look what I did. I opened three threads at the books section and then wrote a post at the Happening’s thread to invite everyone from the guild to participate. I think that this is a very good approach.
I really hope that many great discussions were held inside the guild, but I don’t believe that this is possible in the current conditions.

And Lhun, this guild is our guild, but you also understand that Grond may have some different ideas from us and some things I say may not be in accordance with his thoughts.

[Lhunithiliel]

To tell you the truth, I looked through the discussion-threads OUT of the guild and I noticed that even there the discussions are attended by 3-4 people! The situation is diferent with the RPG-s but the really good educative discussions ..... not very popular they seem to be! I remember the time not so long ago when almost 10 people actively discussed the caharcter of Melkor, Sauron's shape, Ents vs. Elves in age..... And now? It's the film everywhere! The books seem to have been forgotten! Maybe Mrs.Maggott is right.

The debates give a thrill!
I say.... let's try to organize one. I hope it will arouse the spirit again!

gate7ole, let's do it! :) If you need me in organizing it - you're welcome!

AND

EVEN

BETTER.......

How about a debate BETWEEN us and the Schollars?

[Húrin Thalion]

What I think we need to get discussions or anything else going is a reduction in the amount of inactive members. I think that about one fifth of the guilds members are active so that is the problem. You cannot have a guild were 10 members participate. My idea is to get activities started to draw and keep new members. Anyway what happened to the what if game? I miss it a little I must admitm

[gate7ole]

Here I quote Lhunithiliel’s post at another thread. We’d better discuss it here.

If we wish to attract the attention of OUR Guild's members to threads WE open, WHY not open them here and invite the OTHERS from the forum to look it through and participate?!

We have discussed this at the Round table, but still, let me remind the opinion, with which I agree, though I regret the sad fact >>> namely - that whenever a good discussion topic is opened INside the Guild, it stays unvisited by many other TTF-ers.

Now, when someone of us opens a thread OUTside the Guild, it is accessible to everyone and it is there - visible to all TTF-ers, part of whom the GT-members are.

So, what I want to say is that :

1/ We'd better try to arise the interest of more TTF-ers to threads existing IN the Guild - through better advertising policy, I suppose

2/ We should arise the interest of the Guild-members in the INNER Guild-activities , to provoke their activity, their creativeness etc.

3/ We'd better inform the Guild-members about interesting topics that exist OUTside the Guild, opened by OTHER TTF-ers, for one purpose - by participating in a clever way there, they can contribute to the image of the Guild AND, of course learn new things, that should be then shared IN the Guild.

Otherwise, it all sounds like:
"Look what others have done!"

This is NOT good! This, I am afraid, will destroy any interest, whatever left, to become or/and stay a member of the Guild of Tolkienology! Look around! We still cannot win over the problem of insufficient activity IN the Guild and what will happen when we openly invite the Guild-members to be active and creative OUTside the Guild?! Then, really the question will arise : "WHY should I become or/and stay a member of the GT?"

IMO, it is important that we create HERE and attract interest from OUTside, and not v.v.

I have only one thing to say. I don’t discriminate among outsiders and insiders. When I open a thread, I want to discuss it with as many people as I can. If this can be done outside the guild, I will do so. The guild can be advertised in other ways, as well (e.g. as you said, but the members of it participating the discussions held outside the guild).

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole

I have only one thing to say. I don’t discriminate among outsiders and insiders. When I open a thread, I want to discuss it with as many people as I can. If this can be done outside the guild, I will do so. The guild can be advertised in other ways, as well (e.g. as you said, but the members of it participating the discussions held outside the guild).

I don't doubt that all the Guilds have the same problem. Furthermore, I would remind everyone again that a great deal of energy is being expended in the film threads. I know because I have expended a great deal of mine there and it isn't over by a long chalk given that ROTK won't be out till next December!

Perhaps we need to have a sort of external ad campaign, not only our Guild, but all the Guilds, which tell non-members of ongoing programs, debates, lectures etc. available to them within the Guilds. Some newcomers to the forum might feel awkward "dropping in" unless we tell them it's fine if they do so. I know I wondered if these things were limited to members before I joined. Some are, some aren't, but we need to let people know the policy and what we are offering. Maybe a "what's doing on the forum: Guild section" thread outside of the Guild area, with a special "non-members look here!" appeal. Then too, those of us who know other members on other threads might "invite" them to participate in threads that we believe they would find interesting. That has happened to me from time to time and it frequently brings interested parties to the recommended thread for a "look".

I definitely feel we need some "outreach" outside of the Guild section which will tell other forum members what is being offered in our Guild and, perhaps, others as well.

[Lhunithiliel]

It's ugly said "outsiders" and "insiders"!
I see it as a matter of Guild-members and non-members.

I understand that it's extremely challenging when a thread, one has opened, is attended by as many TTF-ers, as possible. It then becomes interesting! And I do NOT object to this! Please, don't get me wrong!

BUT!!!! (my favourite word lately :p )

What would be the motive of someone to enter this or another guild? Those, who love RPGs - they easily find their way and place. Those, who love discussing the films - .... (no comment ;) )

WHAT is GT's "bait"? WHAT should it be? WHAT can we offer so that people get interested in this Guild?

Try to remember what attracted us.
Now ask the question - WHAT made people leave the Guild? WHAT makes members never show up here but be active and creative in other guilds and/or forum-sections....
WHAT is the "formula" to keep a live interest in the Guild activities?

I am NOT saying that once a GT-member, a person is "bound" to the Guild and will not be permitted to do anything out of it. My God! NO! :eek:
But the thrill should be kept alive!

Have we asked the members WHAT they want to see done in the Guild? Have we asked them about their preferences and particular interests, their expectations at joining the Guild?

So, this is IMO the problem....

Because....otherwise.... one could ask himself :"Why should I join/stay?"
*****
In this line of thoughts, I've just remembered the story of Aldarion and his Guild of Mariners. Whenever there was a sea-quest, the Guild became popular and "crowded" and renowed... And in periods of lack of activities, it shrank and became unpopular...

[gilgalad]

Dearest all,
Lhun... (not i hope of me being able to spell that!) i dont know how long ago you posted it, but your suggestion of a debate between tolkienologists and scholars is , in my humble opinion, a marvellous idea.

It would promote an enjoyable, healthy spirit of competition wuthin the forum, while inspiring people from both groups to undertake a more in depth study of tolkien's literary works as both groups will be striving to best the other. as far as i can tell it would be an excellant means of nurturing a more detailed and informed knowledge of middle earth.

\yours without wax
gilgalad

[Lhunithiliel]

I have spoken with gate7ole about the idea.
Well, it is not something "sensational", becuase it was known from the "birth" of the two guilds that they are going to meet on a "battle- field" some time in the future....

Now, that Grond is back, we shall first of all "tidy our house", make the necessary in-guild arrangements and solve the "rank"-issue and then, we can have such a debate with the "Schollars".
But perhaps the Guild-Masters of both Guilds will decide to have a debate sooner.... It's up to them.

Meanwhile, I think it would be just very, very useful if ALL of you, GT-members, post in this thread with your :
>>> opinions
>>> wishes
>>> expectations
>>> criticism

on the guild's activities.

[Finrod]

How do I get in the Guild?

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Finrod
How do I get in the Guild?
Visit this thread:
Apply Thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=234506#post234506)

[gilgalad]

A Scolaire Dhil,
I dont know if anything is being done that I dont know about but from what i can tell the idea of a debate seems to have died off.

This is an absolute DISASTER. Lhun, you've been saying for a while about how things arn't getting the kind of interest they should be on the forum, and this is a perfect example. After an initial bout of enthusiasm it seems everyone hasgiven up and moved on to equally short lived projects.

I really think a debate is what this guild needs to get people interested and active, so come on, let's get it done!!!

Yours Without Wax
Do Chara
gilgalad

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gilgalad
A Scolaire Dhil,
I dont know if anything is being done that I dont know about but from what i can tell the idea of a debate seems to have died off.

This is an absolute DISASTER. Lhun, you've been saying for a while about how things arn't getting the kind of interest they should be on the forum, and this is a perfect example. After an initial bout of enthusiasm it seems everyone hasgiven up and moved on to equally short lived projects.

I really think a debate is what this guild needs to get people interested and active, so come on, let's get it done!!!

Yours Without Wax
Do Chara
gilgalad

Excuse me, but isn't there a debate already going on in the Guild about Saruman and the Shire? I just messed that up by not reading the rules with sufficient comprehension, but I thought that it constituted a debate. Of course, I am getting so confused not only about where I am on this forum but what forum I'm on (what with the blue place), that I may be entirely wrong about the above. If, however, I am right (for a change), then it would seem that the debate thread is at least aborning if not actively robust at this point.

[gilgalad]

A scolaire dhil, mrs maggot,

Nope, you were absolutely right and all my giving out was for nought. Rats!
I guess id better keep up with whats going on in the guild a bit better. Man, is my face red!

Yours without wax
Do chara,
gilgalad

[Mrs. Maggott]

I have been told that this is the forum in which to suggest possible debate topics. Well there has been something in LOTR which bothered me from the time I read it in my 20s and that is Elrond's caveat to the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen and how that whole thing would have played out if the Ring had not been found. Consider the following:

By allowing the betrothal, but not permitting the marriage unless Aragorn claims (and wins) the throne of Gondor, Elrond effectively binds Aragorn to what might - and most probably will - be a "hopeless" situation. For if he puts forth a claim to the throne, then the following will doubtless happen:

First, because Denethor is certainly not going to step aside gracefully, any such claim is going to cause factions galore in Gondor, even if Aragorn is able to "prove" that he is, in fact, Thorongil, the great hero of old.

Second, when Sauron discovers the matter, he would probably launch an all-out war against Gondor in an attempt to kill or capture the last remaining heir of hated Elendil. Remember, in LOTR, after using the palantir, Aragorn tells Gimli and Legolas that Sauron had not known of his existence until that moment. Furthermore, immediately thereafter Sauron sets in motion plans that he had not intended to launch so precipitously simply because he has discovered Aragorn's identity. Now, given the fact that the Kingdom will be in disarray because of the dispute over leadership, Sauron's war will probably succeed in destroying Gondor, probably killing Aragorn and Denethor in the process.

On the other hand, if Aragorn does not (and he did not) choose to endanger Gondor and the rest of Middle-earth in a premature bid for the throne, then he is trapped: betrothed but not wed. Hence, he cannot take another to his bed to beget an heir and continue the line of Elendil. Therefore, by adhering to the terms of Elrond's "caveat", Aragorn effectively ends the line of the Kings. It's a real "no win" situation.

Of course, Tolkien presented this conundrum in the true "fairy tale" style: setting the "hero" an impossible task in order to win the hand of the princess and, sure enough, in some miraculous way, he is able to do so. However, apart from our knowlege of the story, I really would like to see the members address Elrond's "wicked" caveat.

[gate7ole]

Mrs. Maggott, the topic you brought is interesting, but inappropriate for debate. It is more suitable for a discussion. You can start such a discussion (in or out of the guild) and find out what the fellow members think about it.

[gilgalad]

A scolaire dhil, gate7ole,

How about a debate concerning Feanor, ie Was he more sinned against than sinning or vice versa?

Yours without wax
Do chara buan
gilgalad

[gate7ole]

A scolaire dhil, gilgalad

Since there is an on-going debate right now, we cannot open a new one. You can either suggest this topic again, after this debated has ended (and been judged), or you can open a thread starting a discussion about it.

[gilgalad]

Gate7ole,

I know there is a debate at the moment but I was thinking maybe it would not be a bad topic for a debate at a later date. Just a thought.

[Lhunithiliel]

I would like to remind to all my estimated Guild-mates that there is a thread where all of you can post your comments, suggestions, new ideas, criticizing notes etc. and this thread is
H E R E!!!!!!!

How about showing more activity?

I haven't heard of a new idea for a looooong time already!

Somebody?

Anybody?

Anything?

[Lhunithiliel]

I would like to invite all GT - members to an open debate at the "Round Table" - thread.

>>> The subject: Is the limited participation of the guild-members in the activities of the Guild because of individual lack of interest or is there other reasons for that?

>>> The open debate starts today and will last for two weeks (minimum).

>>> Every GT-member is welcome to openly state her/his opinion.

>>> I hope we eventually come to some conclusions and decisions.
******

You are ALL invited!
Wine and food - free and already served! ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I would like to invite all GT - members to an open debate at the "Round Table" - thread.

>>> The subject: Is the limited participation of the guild-members in the activities of the Guild because of individual lack of interest or is there other reasons for that?

>>> The open debate starts today and will last for two weeks (minimum).

>>> Every GT-member is welcome to openly state her/his opinion.

>>> I hope we eventually come to some conclusions and decisions.
******

You are ALL invited!
Wine and food - free and already served! ;)
It would depend upon what the activity is. I am at the moment busy with assembling my poor attempts at the lecture which comes due this Sunday. Hopefully it will be ready and hopefully worth reading. Also, I did participate, however poorly, in the debate just held in the Guild.

However, I must admit that I have not participated in the language sections. It simply is not one of my interests and I know nothing about that particular activity.

I also participate in other areas on the forum (which I am trying to minimize but somehow keep getting "stuck" in!).

I have not really commented on the past lectures although I have read them because I do not generally ask questions just to ask questions, so to speak and besides, there's an awful lot of things going on at home as well. So I really cannot imagine how I can do much more than I am doing although I am happy to participate in activities (lectures, debates) when the opportunity arises and I can do so at least minimally intelligently. I must admit that much of what is discussed in the Guild exceeds my knowledge to the point wherein I cannot participate in a way I consider to be intellectually acceptable. But when it's on my level, I do my best to be a contributing member.

[Grond]

I am whole-heartedly behind your effort, Lhun. My problem is real world intrusions. I am beginning a new job on Wednesday (on the road and away from internet) and am also the executor of both my Grandmother's and Father's estate. I will continue to be as active here as time allows. I encourage everyone to participate in all guild activities and I am trying to budget my time to be able to participate more here.

[FoolOfATook]

The subject: Is the limited participation of the guild-members in the activities of the Guild because of individual lack of interest or is there other reasons for that?

I think that the first step that must be undertaken in addressing this question is to determine what exactly we want to get out of the Guild. In short, we should ask the question "Why have a Guild of Tolkienology?". I have quite a few ideas as to the answer, and while these all represent only the opinion of someone who has been in the Guild for a few months, I'd like to think that my position in the Guild as a Deputy Guild-Master lends some degree of weight to my thoughts. At any rate, since I believe that it is the duty of the leadership of an organization to lead, and since I am, to some extent, a member of the leadership here, if only in title, I don't consider myself to be overly impudent in expressing a few of those ideas now.

This past November I was lucky enough to see one of my favorite writers, the journalist Christopher Hitchens, speak at a book-signing. In his remarks, he said that it was absolutely vital, when discussing anything, to "always look at the language." This idea dovetails nicely with my own field of study, which is language and literature, and it is an idea that I have taken to heart. If the question is "Why have a Guild of Tolkienology", the most logical place to start answering the question is by examining the very name of our group. The question then becomes, what do we mean by "Tolkienology"? The obvious answer is that
"Tolkienology" is the study of the life and works of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. To take this a step further, it seems that, for better or for worse, this Guild has followed the lead of the larger Tolkien Forum and chosen to focus almost exclusively on J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth Legendarium- The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and [/]The History of Middle-earth[/I]. Taking this even further, the Guild has chosen to focus on what I call the "internal" aspects of these works. What I mean by this is that Guild members are much more likely to ask questions regarding Turin's relationship with Beleg in the stories, than they are to ask questions about how Turin compares to Kullervo, the hero of The Kalevala. This focus on internal issues within the Middle-earth Legendarium all but completely permeates every activity of the Guild, from the lecture series, to the event game, to the study, to debates, and so forth.

There is nothing inherently wrong in this focus. I don't share it to anywhere near the degree of almost everyone I encounter, both in the Guild and in the larger Tolkien Forum, but that is really neither here nor there. However, I believe that the fact that the issues discussed in the larger Forum are very similar to the ones discussed within the Guild might be a factor in the situation that Lhun brought forth as our primary issue in this discussion. I believe that the best way to address this issuem, then, is to offer something within the Guild that truly cannot be found in the larger TTF.

(To be continued when I've had some coffee)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Grond
I am whole-heartedly behind your effort, Lhun. My problem is real world intrusions. I am beginning a new job on Wednesday (on the road and away from internet) and am also the executor of both my Grandmother's and Father's estate. I will continue to be as active here as time allows. I encourage everyone to participate in all guild activities and I am trying to budget my time to be able to participate more here.
Oh, Master, how I MISS YOU!!!!!
And now it seems I'll see even less of you! :(
;) :)
But, be OK!
*******
Mrs. Maggot, and all of you, who, I hope, will attend this debate,
The reason I opened it is to analyse the obvious limited participation in the guild activities.
LIMITED! Mind it! I did not say low one.

I mean that being a frequent "visitor" in the guild ( ;) ) I cannot but notice that only a few members participate in its activities.
I definitely do NOT expect everyone participating in EVERY thread, because we are all different people with differenet interests ....
The thing is that I see a List of about ...what? - 30-40 members?!?! ...And at the same time I see only about 5-6 names that are present in the various threads.
We get more frequent and valuable contributions even from "outsiders" ("winky-smiling face" ;) :) - thank you! ), than from "insiders".
Another point is that I see lack of originality.
Good ideas are being suggested rarely and even when they are, they do not meet appropriate response.

Now, call my words too "drastic"... perhaps you'll be right.
But... fight me back! ;)
I have gathered you here to debate, analyse and take decisions on the ALL-GUILD activities as a whole and in parts.


Your turn!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Oh, Master, how I MISS YOU!!!!!
And now it seems I'll see even less of you! :(
;) :)
But, be OK!
*******
Mrs. Maggot, and all of you, who, I hope, will attend this debate,
The reason I opened it is to analyse the obvious limited participation in the guild activities.
LIMITED! Mind it! I did not say low one.

I mean that being a frequent "visitor" in the guild ( ;) ) I cannot but notice that only a few members participate in its activities.
I definitely do NOT expect everyone participating in EVERY thread, because we are all different people with differenet interests ....
The thing is that I see a List of about ...what? - 30-40 members?!?! ...And at the same time I see only about 5-6 names that are present in the various threads.
We get more frequent and valuable contributions even from "outsiders" ("winky-smiling face" ;) :) - thank you! ), than from "insiders".
Another point is that I see lack of originality.
Good ideas are being suggested rarely and even when they are, they do not meet appropriate response.

Now, call my words too "drastic"... perhaps you'll be right.
But... fight me back! ;)
I have gathered you here to debate, analyse and take decisions on the ALL-GUILD activities as a whole and in parts.
Your turn!
Well, originality is hard. Tolkien's very popularity means that much of his work has been "scrutinized" to death. A "new angle" is hardly possible at this point unless one goes "outside" the works and begins to compare them to various other works either contemporary or ancient. And that, of course, requires familiarity with the other work which not everyone has. Therefore those persons who do not have such a familiarity perforce cannot participate (what can you say?) or will have no interest therein - and you are back to a limited number of participants.

I find the "lens" quality of Tolkien's M.E. works interesting. He starts out so huge and almost amorphous with the creation and then goes through the Silmarillion in which he recounts things in Ages and then centuries and decades and finally he winds up in LOTR accounting things almost daily and hourly. It's almost as if his work is "distilled" down into that period of one year in which everything is finally quantified and qualified. Perhaps a discussion of the author's use of "time" would be profitable. I don't know, but it's a thought.

[gate7ole]

Guild of Tolkienologists. A guild of people that are devoted to the study of the works of Tolkien. A guild that differs from most others because its members are the leaders of knowledge. Which of the above are true? How much do we actually differ from the various RP guilds?
How many of the Tolkienologists have read the HOME series? How many are in the process of doing so? How many intend to start in the next few months? I have a serious suspicion that very few will answer affirmatively in one of the above questions. This is also shown by the applications for experts’ tests: only one. What I see at the guild is a lack of experience (so as to guide the new ones) and also a lack of interest for deeper knowledge.
Of course, I don’t blame anyone. It is not easy to invest much time in a fictional world. My point is that the title of our guild is not representative of the level of our guild. Very few (e.g. the Guild Master) can consider themselves true Tolkienologists.

[Beleg]

Actually I plan to start HOME series Tommorow. The Problem is i'll be borrowing the HOME books from someone and will probably photostate them and read the photostates. I can't seem to find HOME series in my city and can't afford them online so i have to take the difficult part. I haven't read HOME because of non-avalibility not because my heart doesn't yearns to read it.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Actually I plan to start HOME series Tommorow. The Problem is i'll be borrowing the HOME books from someone and will probably photostate them and read the photostates. I can't seem to find HOME series in my city and can't afford them online so i have to take the difficult part. I haven't read HOME because of non-avalibility not because my heart doesn't yearns to read it.

Beleg, where are you located? I sometimes get used and redundant books (paperbacks mostly). If I knew where you lived, I could send any of the series that I am able to procure to you (in English, I'm afraid). I would be happy to do this if you are interested.

[Beleg]

Mrs Maggot thanks a lot for the offer. I am sincerely grateful to you but I deem you should not take such trouble. It would be fine with me to read photostated copies of the books. I am used to doing this. I greatly appreciate you offer once again. And I think i may be getting hardback editions in this summer as well. Oh and I live in Pakistan.

[gilgalad]

Originally posted by gate7ole
My point is that the title of our guild is not representative of the level of our guild. Very few (e.g. the Guild Master) can consider themselves true Tolkienologists.

I don't agree with your definition of a Tolkienologist. By definition an "ologist" is a person who studies an "ology", ie a particular subject, in this case, the works of Tolkien.

Just because people in this guild are not all as well versed in the world of ME as Grond does not mean they should be chastised or indicted. Just the opposite, in fact. The people here a showing a willingness to learn, despite seeing just how daunting the task is by being exposed to the amount of knowledge people like Grond display.

[Lhunithiliel]

The name.... the titles.... you are saying....?

Well, initiative doesn't have a title... I think. It is either here or no.

I have the feeling that the incentives are poor. People are such kind of "animals"(:D) that they have to aim at something in particular in order to do their "greatest deeds".

Our incentives? ????? What are they? Which are they?

FoT, I agree with you that we shall have to introduce something NEW in order to attract more interest and more activity.
The "outer" look at Tolkien - idea is OK. But why haven't you organized it so far?

Before I was offered the Deputy-post here, I had applied for having my own small guild. Now I intend to implement some of those ideas here. I'll think it all over and soon I'll act.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
The name.... the titles.... you are saying....?

Well, initiative doesn't have a title... I think. It is either here or no.

I have the feeling that the incentives are poor. People are such kind of "animals"(:D) that they have to aim at something in particular in order to do their "greatest deeds".

Our incentives? ????? What are they? Which are they?

FoT, I agree with you that we shall have to introduce something NEW in order to attract more interest and more activity.
The "outer" look at Tolkien - idea is OK. But why haven't you organized it so far?

Before I was offered the Deputy-post here, I had applied for having my own small guild. Now I intend to implement some of those ideas here. I'll think it all over and soon I'll act.
As "Tolkienologists", it is not enough IMHO to become familiar with his writings. On another site there has been an ongoing debate about "finding God" in LOTR. For every quote indicating that Tolkien's great tale is certainly grounded in his Faith, others have said that he "denied" any such thing or that his use of ancient pagan myths somehow negate whatever distinctly "Christian" point of view he may have included in the tale.

Tolkien was a devout Catholic made even more devout by what he considered to be his mother's "martyrdom" for her (and his) faith. He wrote many things, especially about fairy stories and myth which indicate that he believed these to be acceptable vessels in which to present a Christian worldview. Furthermore, one of his greatest themes - especially in LOTR - was that of death vs. immortality. It is not for nothing that Tolkien presents death as "Man's 'gift'" in his mythology rather than being a "punishment" for man's fall.

There are in fact, so many facets concerning Tolkien's great myth which are directly connected to his own religious beliefs (as well as his life experiences) that I cannot imagine how we might know better about them if we do not discuss and debate in depth how the author's faith influenced his works at so many different levels.

And then, of course, not only Tolkien's faith, but his "Englishness" and his hatred (and that's not too harsh a word) for "progress" as evidenced by industrialization, materialism and even the sort of "one-worldism" (he wished the curse of Babel down upon those who were trying to homogenize the world culture).

These things to me seem to be fit subjects for study in this Guild. Until we understand the influences that the author's life history and beliefs have had upon his works in the most profound sense (and it isn't enough to endlessly repeat that he "didn't like allegory" as if that immediately removed God from his works), I don't know how we can begin to undestand the works themselves or consider ourselves "Tolkienologists".

[FoolOfATook]

FoT, I agree with you that we shall have to introduce something NEW in order to attract more interest and more activity.The "outer" look at Tolkien - idea is OK. But why haven't you organized it so far?

Actually Lhun, since you yourself replied to my thread where I put forth my proposal of a reading group for Tolkien's influences, I'm kind of surprised that you asked this. However, your question is legitamate, and I believe that a legitimate response is warranted. As you know, right now I'm tied up in the testing and ranking process, and in much of my free time I'm either re-reading Tolkien to find new questions, or re-writing questions, or administering the tests, or trying to rally up interest in the testings, and so forth. I'm hoping to get the reading group going this month, but if the testing process continues to move at its current snail's pace, I'm afraid that I might have to postpone this project. However, if you think that there is interest in further "outer" studies, and the reading group grows well, I'd really enjoy working with Tolkien's non ME works, or holding discussions on the themes or the structure or the style of Tolkien's work. But right now, almost all of my time spent in the Guild is being spent on testing.

[gate7ole]

I don't agree with your definition of a Tolkienologist. By definition an "ologist" is a person who studies an "ology", ie a particular subject, in this case, the works of Tolkien.
Just because people in this guild are not all as well versed in the world of ME as Grond does not mean they should be chastised or indicted. Just the opposite, in fact. The people here a showing a willingness to learn, despite seeing just how daunting the task is by being exposed to the amount of knowledge people like Grond display.
Actually, you don’t disagree with my post gilgalad. If you read it all (and not just a fragment), you will understand it.
“Guild of Tolkienologists. A guild of people that are devoted to the study of the works of Tolkien.”
I don’t say that Tolkienologists are only those that have read HOME, but also those that intend to read it. But of course, if a guild has a title like “Tolkienology”, there must be both categories: those that know and those that intend to know. And our guild lacks both.

FoaT has proposed to start an activity about the “outer” look at Tolkien.
From my part, I would like to participate in an activity about the HOME series. The Scholars started one, but there is lack of activity and none of my fellow guild-members showed up. So, we might start a new one here. But the question is: Are there enough people willing to participate? Will it start with enthusiasm to lose interest on the way (I have seen this in almost every activity of the forum in general)? If there is anyone really interested, it would be good if s/he expressed his/her interest here and maybe make some suggestions.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole

FoaT has proposed to start an activity about the “outer” look at Tolkien.
From my part, I would like to participate in an activity about the HOME series. The Scholars started one, but there is lack of activity and none of my fellow guild-members showed up. So, we might start a new one here. But the question is: Are there enough people willing to participate? Will it start with enthusiasm to lose interest on the way (I have seen this in almost every activity of the forum in general)? If there is anyone really interested, it would be good if s/he expressed his/her interest here and maybe make some suggestions.
Perhaps we are too broad in our undertakings? Rather than an overall look at a very large subject (like the HoME series) we should choose something more narrow in scope and attempt to develop it more fully. After all, the HoME series is quite extensive to say the least. So that would mean for someone to participate intelligently in the discourse, he/she would have to read the whole thing (with some comprehension which in some of the works involved isn't easy!). We know that many of us haven't done so even where desired. Indeed, some lack the ability because they don't have the books.

I would suggest that a segment/section of these works be chosen which would allow those who don't have the book either to obtain it and read it or to get it as one member must do "off the net". If the section is not too long, members can read and participate in the debate at the same time so a great deal of foreknowledge would not be necessary. Furthermore, if the section chosen is of sufficient depth and scope, the interest therein should not decline but stay focussed until the matter has been thoroughly discussed.

Of course, I am a rank novice in this sort of thing, so doubtless this may not be of assistance to those attempting to address the situation.

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, Master Took,

No matter how "old" I am (:p ) I still REMEMBER not bad... not bad....... Mmmmm What was I going to do?.... :p :D LOL

Seriously, what I meant by organize is ACTIVELY "urge" the activity. In what way? - it's for you to decide, I'm afraid.

I have thought a lot about this, but I find it more essential for me NOW to continue reading and analysing those writings that I have by Tolkien and only then I may allow myself go into the "outer" sources. I have to know first Tolkien in order to be able to compare him with others. Right?

In this sense I think Gate and Mrs.Maggott are both right. It would have been fine to start some sort of a reading discussion.... let it be the HoME, OK.... BUT!!!! Slowly and bit by bit...and with sufficient time.

Or the UT?
I even think this book is much more appropriate to be analysed FIRST before the HoME. I guess, these people, who have read the LOTR and the Silmarillion will find it so educative! So many things become much much clearer when one reads the UT!!!!

The HoME, from the bits I've read so far, I'm afraid should be taken into consideration only on more solid ground so to say, as it contains quite a few dufferent facts from the Silmarillion, which might be confusing...

But Gate is right in one essential thing - a c t i v i t y !
This is what we fear. Every new initiative enjoys a boom of activity and then this dies.
So?
So, we come again to the incentives!
Give people a REASON why to do this or that and their interest will stay live.

[FoolOfATook]

I have thought a lot about this, but I find it more essential for me NOW to continue reading and analysing those writings that I have by Tolkien and only then I may allow myself go into the "outer" sources. I have to know first Tolkien in order to be able to compare him with others. Right?

I see. Studying the works that Tolkien valued the most highly and that influenced his work wouldn't count as coming to "know" Tolkien. What I'm proposing isn't a matter of comparing Tolkien with anyone. It's a matter of studying Tolkien from a new perspective.

Seriously, what I meant by organize is ACTIVELY "urge" the activity. In what way? - it's for you to decide, I'm afraid.

Again, maybe you haven't noticed, but I'm trying to "urge" people to take part in the testing process, but I've found that this is all but pulling teeth. As long as I'm spending hours at a time sitting by computer, hoping that ANYONE will send me a message arranging testing times, I find myself getting somewhat pessimistic about trying to urge people into another activity.

Now that I think about it, Lhun, it seems odd to me that in your discussions of lack of interest within the Guild, you didn't mention the slow pace of the testing process. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this, but I do know that both Gate and Grond have been tested already, but you haven't....

[Lhunithiliel]

I won't escape from you Master Took! ;)

[Finduilas]

Oh, Master Took, don't be so sad. I want to make you a bit more happy so I tell you that I'll take the tests next Friday/Saturday for sure. I just want to spend a little more time with the Sil. But I'll send you a pm to tell you the exact day and hour.
But it will be very soon.:)

[gilgalad]

FoolofaTook,

I'll be going on holiday to Spain on Wednesday so if possible could you pm me and give me a time that suits you between here and then. Preferably after 6 o clock.

[gilgalad]

Sorry, that's GMT by the way.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I won't escape from you Master Took! ;)
Nobody will escape......mu ha ha ha ha :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FoolOfATook]

gilgalad- We can do this thing tonight, or if that's not good, how about 3:00 GMT tommorrow?

[Walter]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Guild of Tolkienologists. A guild of people that are devoted to the study of the works of Tolkien. A guild that differs from most others because its members are the leaders of knowledge. Which of the above are true? How much do we actually differ from the various RP guilds?
How many of the Tolkienologists have read the HOME series? How many are in the process of doing so? How many intend to start in the next few months? I have a serious suspicion that very few will answer affirmatively in one of the above questions. This is also shown by the applications for experts' tests: only one. What I see at the guild is a lack of experience (so as to guide the new ones) and also a lack of interest for deeper knowledge.
Being a foreigner to the guild I'd like to throw in my twopence worth, if I'm not intruding in a Guild's sacrosanct area, that is...

I think you differ from most other guilds because of the many members you have AND because of the enthusiasm of a few members in your guild.

Knowledge is not the only thing that counts, IMO someone with less knowledge but an open mind and willing to improve ones insight has better chances of "understanding" Tolkien and his epos than someone most knowledgeable, but unable to see the manifold aspects and approaches to Tolkien's works, many of which are differing, but equally valid nonetheless.

Whether one focuses mainly on the books by Tolkien ("inner view") or whether one wants to read a few books about Tolkien (and his works) as well ("outer view") is subject to personal preferences.

The worst approach - again IMO - is the one, where people start thinking that their interpretation of a certain topic/issue is the only possible or correct one, especially when there exists no clear information - or several differing ones - by Tolkien himself.

Regarding possible activities to improve insight and knowledge I see several possibilites aside from the already mentioned ones. Personally I think that tests and the like to measure ones knowledge, or a ranking system based thereon are a somewhat "juvenile" approach.

One would be to maintain a list of "Subjects/topics of Interests" for discussion and knowledge-exchange. Everyone could state interest in a certain subject/topic and everyone could add new subjects/topics. Threads on that topics should be opened and Guild members could volunteer to do some preparation and/or moderation of those topics with a broader interest, topics of less interest for a majority could be discussed informally.

[Elennainie]

OK Lhun, you said to come here with ideas, so here I am. Again, I really think we need to clean up our forum space and get rid of some of the less active threads. Also, regarding the sticky threads: combine member list, application instructions, and apply here together into one. They all fit together anyway. You have to sift through too much stuff now, in this guild, instead of just checking one thread for happenings, etc.

Also, someone may have already mentioned this (sorry, don't have time right now to read this whole thread), but the lectures may be sapping some of our energy. Preparing a lecture is really a solo activity, requiring lots of time and effort done "off-forum". I think it's a noble idea, but it takes forever to research and write them, and forever to read them. It's not very interactive, and time spent on that could be used for more engaging guild activities.

[Lhunithiliel]

Elen, yes about those threads you mention - I fully agree.

As for the lectures.... Well, I admit that they are time-consuming. I needed a month for mine to prepare it, to edit it, to enter it in the Wiki-knowledgebase in a form easily accesible...
I know!
But every research needs time and efforts... In fact every single thing we do - whatever it is, if one wants it done well, takes time and efforts...

I am not speaking here of rushing through the guild activities as the wind through the ruines of the ancient tower of Amon Sul on Wetherthorp (sp?) ;)
What we need is quality - YES!
But activity as well!

If ALL the Guild members show activity in their favourite threads - this will revive the Guild.
If ALL the Guild members show creativity and suggest some interesting and serious topics of discussion on Tolkien writings and keep their threads "hot" and "alive", then this will become the most attractive place in the forum and people from the whole forum will visit and participate....

It's as simple as that!

[Beleg]

Its not really possible for all the members to participate, and members will participate if new and interesting ideas are prsented, (they seemed to have dried out???)

And what about the guild debate? About Aldarion and Erendis?

[Gil-Galad]

AHA!What about the debate!?I asked and asked when we were going to start it but nobody answered to me.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Lhunithiliel]

Now, a few things here to address:

1/ To Walt: I didn't know about this option, so THANK YOU ! :) ....

Gate? Took? Will you?

2/ To my Guild-fellows: I think that there is a common mistake that I constantly witness - MIS-using threads (those dedicated to Guild-matters especially).
Look now here - this thread has been created ONLY for the purpose of announcing things to the Guild and NOT for dscussion of Guild-matters. BUT!!! most of the members keep on using it precisely for discussing! Now I'm dragged to continue the discussion here and not in the right-for-discussion-thread....

Because, there IS a thread created particularly for discussing Guild-matters (Round Table) ... BUT!!! People go there and ask questions... I have just seen questions about the long expected debate....

BUT!!! There is a "Debate Work book" for this purpose!

There is a thread for asking questions - only a few (except me ;) ) have used it....

You see???? We OURSELVES make a chaos! It's NOT that there are many threads! Each one of The existing ones has its purpose (the threads that need URGENTLY to be merged, hoever, are the several dedicated to the ranking-testing-application matters). We shall just have to learn to use them properly!

Oh! And I was NOT right to say that only two threads were alive (the Quenya Course and the Study)! The Lecture Hall is going very well! I hope you find the lectures posted so far not only interesting but also educative! I do!

3/ New discussion threads: Yes! But don't abandon them later! Of course, if there is a poor interest towards the topic of the discussion offered the thread will soon go to the second-third page... Natural way of selection ;) :D But I don't expect any of you to suggest a dull topic! The only care will be to keep the interest "hot" ;)

Don't ever forget that we have the "Round Table" thread created ESPECIALLY and PARTICULARLY to be at the Guild-members' disposal when they wish to throw in a new idea of a new discussion or comment on the activities going on in the Guild.

Whole this post should NOT have been here BUT at the "Round Table"!
Therefore, I'll make a copy of it there and whatever comments you have, please come there :)

[samjor]

Hello,

What about a thread for newbies to the world of Tolkien consisting of topics only involving THE HOBBIT and THE LORD OF THE RINGS, as a prepartion for other works by Tolkien.

Maybe hold newbie lectures or debates for the less knowledgeable members of the guild?

People might find a lot of the topics at the minute a bit overwhelming.

Just a suggestion.
Thank you

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by samjor
Hello,

What about a thread for newbies to the world of Tolkien consisting of topics only involving THE HOBBIT and THE LORD OF THE RINGS, as a prepartion for other works by Tolkien.

Maybe hold newbie lectures or debates for the less knowledgeable members of the guild?

People might find a lot of the topics at the minute a bit overwhelming.

Just a suggestion.
Thank you
And a very good one!
Well, Tolkienologists, what do you say?

We'll need some help here to think well this matter and organize it properly.

[samjor]

If you are going to take this serious then I think it is up to the elders of the guild to educate the lesser members on the world of the hobbit and the lord of the rings.

If possible through the likes of classrooms,study rooms and debates held only for the purpose of education and prepartion for students to advance within the guild.

This I believe could help raise guild numbers and secure the future of the guild.

Speaking from experience, when I browsed through the halls of the guild I found myself lost, as I am not as well read on the subject as some are, I felt a sudden loss of interest, which is why I believe a lot of members are non active (maybe am wrong).
I believe that if there was such an area, you would also have people who have never read the books before join the guild and reading the books, which is not a bad thing.

I hope you seriously consider this idea and maybe it will help to secure a long and happy membership for myself.

From a dear friend
Thank you

[Mrs. Maggott]

Yes, the idea is good - but amorphous. This is a very deep subject to which anyone who has begun to delve can attest. Therefore, education must also have some "foundation" upon which to build. It is one thing to teach "arithmetic" to 1st graders and another to college students at which time it will probably be called mathematics. Any attempt to "teach" without knowing the fundamental level of the persons to be taught will at best be a "scatter-shot" approach which holds the possibilty of either imparting information already known or information which is "over the heads" of its collective audience.

Furthermore, it behooves the learner to take upon him or herself some of the burden. I have seen threads in other forums where "newbies" want to know basic facts, not interpretations of those facts or their deeper meaning, but the facts themselves. For instance, "Are elves immortal?" or "Who is Aragorn?" etc. These are facts that should be known to the learner from reading Tolkien's basic works, The Hobbit and LOTR. Once these have been read, then the learner should proceed to The Silmarillion and, if he or she feels confident enough, then some of the works which have been published since then. But certainly, the first two are a "must" before anyone can teach the learner much of anything. One can hardly address the deep meaning of something which is unknown.

After that, the learning process can begin at a level for people not that familiar with Tolkien's world and it should begin with an overview of that world. It is very hard indeed to understand much in Tolkien if how "his world" works is not known - for although it is supposed to be this world, it has very specific interactions (elves, men, dwarves, hobbits etc.) which do not occur in this world. I don't know whether this would be better accomplished with Q&A or some other arrangement, but I do know that some basic knowledge of Tolkien's major works is necessary at least on the factual level. If the learner then wishes to go deeper into the matter - so as to get so much more out of it, that's wonderful. But exactly how that might be accomplished - other than the formation of some sort of one-to-one "mentor" program - I don't know.

[samjor]

You mention a one 2 one mentor program which I find quite interesting.

If the elders of the guild would be dedicated enough to take this on, an elder could be assigned a class of students on the same level by using msn messager.

The teacher could hold the classes maybe once or twice a week, of course the teachers would have to divide classes up into different time zones. And when the classes end there can be like end of term exams to determine what level the student is at and whether they are ready to move on to the more advanced issues.
You could also introduce a level of disapline for members missing classes (I dont know what but its an idea) which might help attendence of classes.

If the guild have the staff to acomplish this a think it would turn out great for the Tolkien community.

[Lhunithiliel]

As I said the idea is good!
And I'm taking it seriously :)
I shall need a couple of days to come up with some suggestion.
I am thinking on it!:rolleyes:

[samjor]

ok good sir I will wait in hope for the good of the newbie.

Thank you

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by samjor
ok good sir I will wait in hope for the good of the newbie.

Thank you
Hehe! "SIR" ?
Well, I'm actually a "mam" :D

And please, don't wait! You can come up with a well thought suggestion of yours of how this whole thing could be organized.
Two heads, we say here, think better than one! ;) :D

[samjor]

Sorry MADAM lol,
I think it could be possible to have like a classroom enviroment
using a program such as MSN messager ,dividing classes into levels of knowledge and time zones, hold exams at the end of each term so to keep track of student progress and let the teacher decide if the student stood advance.

It really depend on the number of teachers and wither they would be committed to the job.

I myself would take the job on but I think the role of student suit's me best at the moment.

What do u suggest?

[Beleg]

First of all Lhun, i am really sorry for asking a question in this thread. I should have known better. :( But anyway, The idea presented by M.M is a good one but depends upon how many people would be willing to participate in it. I dont quiet agree with the one to one mentor idea. I know this has been done before but we can start with the chapter disscusion of Hobbit, done by the senior members in the guild so that everyone can benifit from it and everyone will have something to do and those who have forgotten Hobbit might be able to refresh their memories.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
First of all Lhun, i am really sorry for asking a question in this thread. I should have known better. :( But anyway, The idea presented by M.M is a good one but depends upon how many people would be willing to participate in it. I dont quiet agree with the one to one mentor idea. I know this has been done before but we can start with the chapter disscusion of Hobbit, done by the senior members in the guild so that everyone can benifit from it and everyone will have something to do and those who have forgotten Hobbit might be able to refresh their memories.
My mentor suggestion was more in the line of an "acolyte" having someone on the forum to whom he would go when he had a question - maybe by p.m. or e-mail. The mentor would not necessarily just give him the answer, but would provide him with places he could go to find it himself (finding an answer - rather than just being provided with it - means it is more difficult to forget that answer and you learn more as well). It doesn't have to be the same mentor; we could have a "pool" of persons willing to take on this service. The questioner would p.m. anyone in the pool and ask his/her question. If it is something outside of the expertise of that person, the mentor would advise the other member to ask "A" or "B" instead. After all, none of us know everything about these matters.

Anyway, that's what I meant when I mentioned a mentor program.

[Beleg]

thanks Very much for the clarification. Its a very possible idea then. But all that depends upon the willingness.

[samjor]

I like the idea of having a mentor yes and the idea of a forum starting with the hobbit through the different chapters.

I would love to see this happen being a newbie to Tolkien.
But yes as you both have said before it depends on the decication of the mentor.

Ps. Maybe my idea was just a little bit over the top. lol

[Mrs. Maggott]

I would volunteer to serve in such a position always realizing my own shortcomings and ignorance. Still, I could be a "junior" mentor; that is, someone who knows more than the newbies but considerably less than the Loremasters. But, hey! They have grade school teachers before the college professors enter the scene! :p

[samjor]

Why dont we announce the idea to the guild and try and get this moving?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by samjor
Why dont we announce the idea to the guild and try and get this moving?

The idea has been presented here. Let's wait for some of our leaders to read and comment. If it has legs, they will let us know. If not, we can work together if you wish at least for a little while, but we'll have to work out how to do it since the p.m.s are limited space wise. I don't know if you have e-mail (I do), but one way or another, something will be worked out. I trust the wisdom of the Guild leaders. After all, what we're speaking about is what the Guild itself is all about - spreading knowledge about JRRT.;)

[Lhunithiliel]

a few things here:
1/ beleg, my friend, this IS the the thread where every issue is to be discussed. This is what it was created for :)
So, you asking a question here, a question concerning organization of activities in the Guild is most welcome and in the RIGHT place! :)

2/ The matter with education of the type : tutor (mentor) - "student":
If we are to accept the system proposed by M.M. then I shall have to remind you that some time ago I opened a thread called "The never asked question".
Unfortunately, I have been perhaps the most active "asker" there ;) :D and I did receive some very good answers and advices and this helped me a lot to study and learn.
This thread still exists and if we are to adopt the "one-to-one" tuition of the type "Q & A", this "pool" as you call it can be just fine!
But we of course could start a separate thread for the purpose!

I'm still gathering your opinions and thinking of some suitable form of organization to be done ... When I'm ready I'll post it.
I won't be long, I promise! :)

3/ Senior members of the Guild, you say, to teach Tolkien.
I'd rather say - people who have already won ranks as Experts and Senior Journemen and Masters (by the former existing rank-system) would be, SHOULD be the right choice.
But I can also invite "guest-tutors" learned enough as to teach and answer Q-s and advise the learning "students".

4/ The more I think of all this, the more it seems that we shall:
- either use the "NAQ"-thread or
- make it as a Reading Discussion - type of learning....
:rolleyes: :cool:

Well?

[samjor]

I think a reading disscussion would be more suitable.

What do u think?

[Mrs. Maggott]

I agree with your position, but let's take the "never asked question" thread: how many "newbies" would even understand what that meant - or comprehend the questions that have been asked? We have been working within the Guild (which is proper and good) but sometimes we wind up talking only to ourselves and becoming involved in topics so esoteric with which even some of our own Guild members (me, for instance), are not sufficiently familiar so as to be able to participate in the discussion (the debate, for instance).

I am speaking here of reaching out to "newbies" with information that for us is very elementary, but for them is not. I don't mean we should present them with patent answers to every question - that is not only silly, but limits their growth as well - but we should be here to help them develop their OWN skills so that when any future questions they have arise (and they will arise) they can discover the answers themselves. In short, we will give them the tools as well as the facts and the speculations.

In medieval times, Guilds not only were places where Masters and Journeymen congregated to insure the quality of whatever craft the Guild represented, but they were also there to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. Maybe it's time for the Guild to consider not only the more difficult and abstract aspects of Tolkien, but the more concrete and fundamental ones as well and to consider how to make these "first steps" into Tolkienology available (and understandable) to those who wish to take them.

[samjor]

Well spoken Maggot you do us proud.

I could'nt have put it better myself.

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, then.... It seems we are heading towards a decision...?

Sth. like : "A Reading Discussion for newbies?
Starting with the "Hobbit"?

BTW, I personally, after having read the Silm, the Hobbit and the LOTR, have mu own opinion concerning the order of reading those "main" books.... I mean, that I would suggest a newby to Tolkien should start from the Silm. as to start at the beginning of the beginning..., then the "Hobbit" and then the LOTR.... :rolleyes:

But if most of the members decide the first subject of the first Reading Discussion to be the "Hobbit" - OK :)

Well, anyway, if it is going to be a reading discussion, then :
1/ Decide which book to start with
2/ Provide a list of "tutors" responsible for each chapter
3/ ???? (couldn't think of a 3/ :p )

Who will?

[samjor]

I havent read the simarlion and I dont think most newbies would have, I think the hobbit would be best to start with as it would be more popular.

I think it is up to the guild leaders to find and decide Tutor who would be willing to teach.

Will it be a one 2 one mentor assigned to pupil?

[Lhunithiliel]

The "HobbiT" then let it be! :)
Besides, there is a Simarillion Reading Discussion - chapter by chapter; going on, organized by our former Guild-Deputy and today's Guild of Schollars Master Maedhros.
We have come up to Chapter 6 by now and there is a list of the assigned chapters to the respective people.

So, the model will be easy to follow.

What we can do differently is that we could start a "seminar-room" or a "work-shop" for each chapter, where the tutor will give assignements to the students and they will have to report ;)
what they have learned.

These could be essays, or some research on some particular subject (within the respective chapter), or sth. like a test...

Comment, please ! :)

[samjor]

That sound great. Let me know when we are ready to roll.

Thank you.

[Eöl]

This is a little off-topic, perhaps but I thought it was a good idea largely ignored. A few pages back, Walter suggested a list of "hot topics" to be used in discussions and debates. I am going to start a thread for just that, and if any of you think of a topic, please PM me with your idea. Thanks!

Also, about the Hobbit discussion, I think it's an excellent idea. Some very good things have been said about it, but Mrs. Maggot's comment about the things we should be looking at was excellent, IMO.

Maybe it's time for the Guild to consider not only the more difficult and abstract aspects of Tolkien, but the more concrete and fundamental ones as well and to consider how to make these "first steps" into Tolkienology available (and understandable) to those who wish to take them.

Even myself, having a Sr. Journeyman rank does not mean I know everything about The Silmarillion, UT, LotR and The Hobbit. I still struggled with fairly simple questions from ROTK, and I had the most trouble with The Hobbit Tolkien's "simplest" book. Excellent choice for discussion!

[samjor]

I think if you look in earlier posts that you'll find that it was me that kickstarted this whole hobbit thing for beginners maggot only elaborated on it.

Please I think I deserve a bit of credit.

Thank you

[Lhunithiliel]

Samjor, Eol, thank you very much for your active comments.

Samjor, YES! :D You are the one to suggest the "Newby to Tolkien "- care and I am sure we all appreciate it! Especially as it comes from a person who hasn't had yet the opportunity to properly be accepted into the Guild.
For this I amsorry but you have to wait for the Guild Master Grond to come back.
I think Eol did not mean that the idea came from somebody else, I'm sure :)

Now, as for the activities:

Eol, thank you very much for providing the thread you mention in your post! You shall have to up-date the list, though, you know!

And when a topic is chosen for a discussion or a debate it should be taken out of the list.

I have started "negotiations" with some people who would be willing to be tutors.
Give me a couple of days more.

[samjor]

Lhun,

Ive been in contact with FoolofaTook and he has accepted me as a guild member, so is that it, is that all there is to it?


How do I get the title saying that am a guild member at the bottom of my posts?

[Eöl]

Yes samjor, I did not mean it was not your idea! My apologies if you took it that way. Also, for any of you who looked at the Topics thread, it said not to post, but Lhun sent me a PM suggesting I leave the ideas open to discussion. So I changed it, please post your spontaneous brainstorms there!:D

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by samjor
Lhun,

Ive been in contact with FoolofaTook and he has accepted me as a guild member, so is that it, is that all there is to it?

How do I get the title saying that am a guild member at the bottom of my posts?

To enter the Guild is the easiest thing, Samjor ;) :D
BEING in the Guild is that really matters!

I don't know if FoaT has explained to you, but you shall have to pass tests in order to acquire a rank. And HE is the one who is in charge with testing.
So, if you meet him again somewhere on-line, please, tell him to show up or at least contact me .... :mad:
And of course, you can ask him to test you and give you a rank.
*********

Now, I would like to post here my idea about the "Tolkien writings - newbies' studying-teaching" - activity:

1/ I suggest it should be organized in the following way:
Each chapter of the respective book (starting with the "Hob.") shall have a person in charge = a tutor.

>> the discussion : The tutor will offer a discussion on the respective chapter (as a normal reading discussion)

>> the studying process : the tutor will give assignements to the "students" - questions on the content, questions on interpreting different issues related, essays or whatever the tutor finds it fit and suitable.

2/ I need your comments and suggestions on the above suggested organization

3/ I need your suggestions on how we should name the respective threads - the RD-one and the studying one.

And to all interested - I have already got three "Yes"-answers and so we already have three tutors!
They are some of the most learned in Tolkien and they will give a high-quality education to all willing to better understand Tolkien! :D
I'm continuing my "hunt" for tutors! ;) :D Soon I'll have a list of names of the most learned and knowledgable TTF-members as tutors!

[samjor]

eol you have no need to apologise to me, I wasnt being that serious.
I didnt take great offence or anything like that. Anyway never worry.

as for your suggestions Lhun I think their perfect and the idea as a whole is looking very promising , I dont think I can manage anymore suggestions as it all seems to be in your last post.

Its great that u found suitable tutors and so easily I just hope we can find the pupils to match.
Why dont you have a poll first, just to see what sort of feedback you get from guild members and forum users. Theirs really no point going to all this trouble setting this up if your not going to have the pupils.

[Beleg]

As far as I can Understand, We are going to have a Hobbit
chapter discussion thread on which Learned LoreMasters, experts of various Categories would be elobrarting via essay's and lectures.
I suggest we should make a new thread for the NAQ sometimes reaches a pretty high level of discussion which might cause bewilderedment for poor newbie's like me.
Lhun i think you and M.M should get togather and decide the assignment of Chapters. Offcourse i would feel quite honored if i was assigned a chapter. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by samjor

Why dont you have a poll first, just to see what sort of feedback you get from guild members and forum users. Theirs really no point going to all this trouble setting this up if your not going to have the pupils.
Good point....:rolleyes: ... although I would not even like to think that this forum will not be interested in such an activity....

But I will open a poll!

Thanks for the idea! ;) :D

[samjor]

I should be thanking u for making this possible.
Ill be the one that benefits from it.

[Lhunithiliel]

I've posted the poll!

Why don't you go and vote? ;) :D

HERE (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10664)

[Lhunithiliel]

While waiting for the result from the poll, I was thinking about sth. else.

The Lectures!

Four so far BUT a few comments in the Hall of Seminars.

Could it be because three of them were pure history leaving no place for any questions or/and discussions?

Hmmmm :confused: :rolleyes:

Perhaps.... I'm waiting for those which have the non-history "profile". I expect them to bring some vivid and interesting discussions :rolleyes:

How about you?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
While waiting for the result from the poll, I was thinking about sth. else.
The Lectures!
Four so far BUT a few comments in the Hall of Seminars.
Could it be because three of them were pure history leaving no place for any questions or/and discussions?
Hmmmm :confused: :rolleyes:
Perhaps.... I'm waiting for those which have the non-history "profile". I expect them to bring some vivid and interesting discussions :rolleyes:
How about you?
Well, for one thing, such matters require time and rumination. Unless the lecturer has made a point that immediately strikes the particular reader and the two become engaged in it with others "chiming in" (which I believe happened in the first lecture), there is no reason to suppose that great numbers of people are going to have a lot to "say" about what has been written. Of course, if the lectures had been on speculative issues, then the fur would be flying! But what can one say about "the battle took place on...." unless the lecturer has had some editorial comments about the battle or spelled something wrong.

As mentioned, I think some of the lectures coming that are going to contain "speculative" and subjective matters from which will arise engaging discourse, but the most that's going to happen on fairly objective lectures will be questions about this or that event or whether this or that type of armor or maneuver might have been used. The questions will be factual reflecting the nature of the lecture - and such things don't usually lead to long threads. But put in subjectivity, and the whole thing changes (see film threads). I know that I personally did not expect a great deal of comment upon my lecture and treated it as an opportunity to put all the characters "in focus" relative to the Age and the events which took place during it. Even the "introduction" was mostly quotes from Tolkien himself and so there wasn't much anyone could say since he is the final authority on his own works.

If we are looking for lectures that will "spark" this kind of response, then we have to have subjects that will allow for speculation and opinion rather than mere factual recitations (debate as lecture, so to speak). Perhaps a lecture on Tolkien's view of evil as evidenced by a sort of combination "dualist" and the Boethian view of same (which are supposed to be mutually exclusive) or something on his presentation of "war" and whether that presentation supports the Western concept of "the just war" and how...and so forth. This type of lecture will elicit the type of response that perhaps some expected to be forthcoming from the present series.

Anyway, it's just a thought.....:rolleyes:

[Walter]

I agree that most of the lectures provided so far have been - more or less - summaries of factual information. Useful information, but which leaves little room for discussion.

Mrs. Maggott, the first part of your lecture would IMO leave some room for discussion or interpretation and I would have certainly taken this opportunity, had I not already debated this issue with you in another thread.

When I prepared the layout for the Wiki I scribbled a few questions on a piece of paper, which unfortunately seems to have vanished. However two questions - marginal ones, though - I remember: Once you quote from "Tolkien's World from A to Z" by R. Foster. The entry is the same as in the "Complete Guide..." but I was wondering if this is just another title for the same book or if it's a different book.

Second, again connected with the Ents: you quote Foster and Letters, but you do not quote the Sil with its dialog between Manwe & Yavanna that ends with "But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees." which is often considered one of the crucial passages when it comes to discussing the origin of the Ents. Did you omit this part purposely?

----

PS: Links to the Lectures at the Wiki:
Lhun: The First Age of the Sun (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?FirstAge)
Mrs. Maggott: The Third Age of the Sun (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?The__Third__Age__of__the__Sun)
Gate7Ole: Genealogy of Mankind (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Genealogy__of__Mankind)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Walter
I agree that most of the lectures provided so far have been - more or less - summaries of factual information. Useful information, but which leaves little room for discussion.

Mrs. Maggott, the first part of your lecture would IMO leave some room for discussion or interpretation and I would have certainly taken this opportunity, had I not already debated this issue with you in another thread.

When I prepared the layout for the Wiki I scribbled a few questions on a piece of paper, which unfortunately seems to have vanished. However two questions - marginal ones, though - I remember: Once you quote from "Tolkien's World from A to Z" by R. Foster. The entry is the same as in the "Complete Guide..." but I was wondering if this is just another title for the same book or if it's a different book.

Second, again connected with the Ents: you quote Foster and Letters, but you do not quote the Sil with its dialog between Manwe & Yavanna that ends with "But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees." which is often considered one of the crucial passages when it comes to discussing the origin of the Ents. Did you omit this part purposely?

Yes, I believe that they are the same book; there are lots of names on the cover and I just chose one or two of them.

As for the Ents: I really didn't want to get into the matter too deeply since I was doing the Third Age. However, the Ents do play a clear and important role in the War of the Ring which culminates that Age, so I wished to put in Tolkien's own words at least something about their creation, or rather their inception. I hesitated doing much more than that, for otherwise, I would have had to do the same thing for the Dwarves (who were not "Children of Iluvatar" either) and I was concerned that the topic would "grow" out of all proportion to my stated mandate. Given the choice between the "story" and the author's concept, I just thought that the latter would be a better foundation statement. If I had gone to the Sil, that quote would have been very good, but then there would have been other quotes and references and before you knew it......:eek: I would have been drummed out of the Guild for excessive verbiage. :eek:

As for your missing notes: please return my "missing items that I just put down" poltergeist who has obviously gone to visit you for a while. Get your own poltergeist! :mad:

[Walter]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott As for your missing notes: please return my "missing items that I just put down" poltergeist who has obviously gone to visit you for a while. Get your own poltergeist! :mad: [/B]I will see to that as soon as possible ;)

Oh, and thanks for the answers :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Thanks for the comments! :)
I love to watch wise heads exchanging wise thoughts! ;)

It maybe perhaps a bit early, but I have started thinking about the new lecture-cycle; 10 more topics.... should they be on more 'discussable" subjects or...?

What if we start collecting opinions on the possible topics for the new cycle? We can do this in the Hall of Seminars. I'll keep an eye and make a list of the proposed topics.

[Lhunithiliel]

I was thinking... :rolleyes:

Which are the threads in the Guild that you dislike?

And WHY?!

Which threads would you wish to see revived?

[spirit]

i have not yet been to all the Guilds so i dont know. only the v of the artists nd the Guild of the elves

[Beleg]

The very Neglected What if Thread? (Last Post In the begining of March. Shame isn't it?) and its workbook should either be merged or the workbook eliminated. Since in the present time their isn't much usage of What If thread so i don't think there is any need of its workbook.

[Elennainie]

Which are the threads in the Guild that you dislike? Well, I could say the ones I like, if that would help:
Happenings in the Guild (necessary!), Event Game, Hall of Creative Endeavors, Quenya Lessons, Debates (any of them), Lectures (even though I think this thread may sap some of our guild's energy, as I said previously). I'm sure there'd be alot more if I had time to devote to them. :(

[gilgalad]

Don't forget the Tower of Babel, that's the best thread around!!!;)

[Lhunithiliel]

I open this new thread in hope to get all Tokienologists' opinions on :

1/ WHY did you join the Guild?

2/ WHAT do you expect to see happening in the Guild?

3/ WHAT are the faults of the administration body of the Guild?

4/ WHY don't people participate actively in the Guild's threads?

5/ WHY do Tolkienologists prefer opening discussion threads outside the Guild ?

6/ WHAT is the purpose of the Ranks and the Ranking Tests? Does one need to get a rank?

....
Things like these... you know... things that bother me...
Do they bother you?


You're welcome to continue the "What" and "Why" - list ... but I do think we need URGENT comments on the development and the improvement of the Guild.

[Beleg]

1. I joined this Guild because this was the first Guild i ventured in, and because it was basically a non-RP one.

2. Discussions, Debates, so off-topic stuff,etc.

3. Truth be told, None.

4. For myself because sometimes I am too lazy to look up for soomething necessary for a discussion. Just basic Laziness.

5. So that MORE people can view these threads.

6. I don't think so Ranks are necessary, but Tests are a fun way to enhance our knowledge.

[FoolOfATook]

Great idea Lhun!

I'd like to expand that last question a bit, and ask people who've taken my ranking tests if there was anything they would change about them. (And fewer trick questions, or an easier section about the Hobbit doesn't count. ;))

[elffriend]

I joined the Guild because i wanted to gain more knowledge. I often miss the debates as I am not online at the time.

[Walter]

I'm not a member, but I guess I''ve been participating here more frequently than some of the guild members, hence I will take the liberty of replying here.

This is one of the most active guilds in terms of Tolkien-scholarship and spreading Tolkien-related knowledge. I see about everything happening here, that it takes to make a guild outstanding. If there has been any fault of the administration so far, it was - IMO - that the guildmaster has more or less abandoned the guild without a word.

As much as I understand that the guild leaders want their members to post within the guild as much do I see a necessity that people participate outside their guilds as well - or else the forum will fall apart into a confederation of guilds.

As for the rankings and the tests, I would like to mention - once again - that I feel this is a somewhat "childish" approach (and I don't just say that because my knowledge about Tolkien and his works is rather limited)...

[Anamatar IV]

1. Grond invited me. I honestly never would have considered joining a book discussion guild, really (I was an idiot!:()

2. I expect to see what's been going on: debates, analyses, and helping eachother further out knowledge

3. None that I can see.:)

4. Maybe because they feel uncomfortable. I know I did. For a few months when I joined I barely posted and it was because I didn't know where or how. There were a lot of threads up but deep into them. You don't know where to start.

5. Maybe to get different opinions. Maybe because if they think it's a good theory or idea they want the entire forum to see it.

6. The purpose is just to make sure you understand the text. If I would change something about them I would have them less trivial and more conceptual if you know what I mean.:)

[FoolOfATook]

. The purpose is just to make sure you understand the text. If I would change something about them I would have them less trivial and more conceptual if you know what I mean.

I've heard this before, and while I agree with it in principle, I've had a hard time figuing out exactly how to go about writing questions like this. Could you give me an example of the kind of question you think would fit this description?

[Anamatar IV]

Why were NINE members of the Fellowship chosen?

[FoolOfATook]

Hoom. That's a question that I actually do ask from time to time. Oh well, I shall try to ask more questions of that type in the future. If anyone else has any ideas for questions that they'd like to see, they are more than welcome to communicate them to me. :)

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
I'm not a member, but I guess I''ve been participating here more frequently than some of the guild members, hence I will take the liberty of replying here.
I still keep for you a cozy armchair by the fire and a glass of the finest whisky in our Halls, Walt! ;) It's never too late to see how it feels to be a Tolkienologist! ;) :) :D

This is one of the most active guilds in terms of Tolkien-scholarship and spreading Tolkien-related knowledge. I see about everything happening here, that it takes to make a guild outstanding.
Thank you! But....Am I the only one here to be not completely satisfied? Why am I always haunted by the feeling that the Guild still lacks in activities!?

As for the Ranking tests... I have to admit, I still haven't passed one... I keep thinking that Master Took will prepare for me such a list of questions that I won't be able to answer.... and then...How shall overcome the shame?! ;) :p :D

[Beleg]

6. The purpose is just to make sure you understand the text. If I would change something about them I would have them less trivial and more conceptual if you know what I mean.

I disagree. This concept so sounds like a school program, a school test, where we actually have to work and try to understand the text, rather then to go along the flow and enjoy it more. This somehow to me seems like a boring work. I feel that more trivial the questions, the more fun to asnwer. But that's my person opinion anyway.
Somehow conceptual questions tire me, bore me and take away the sense of enjoyment that Tolkien so wanted in his readers, away from me.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I still keep for you a cozy armchair by the fire and a glass of the finest whisky in our Halls, Walt! ;) It's never too late to see how it feels to be a Tolkienologist! ;) :) :D

Well, thanks how very nice of you. But - as your (former) guild-master said - maybe in some 20 years I will know enough and be ready to become a Tolkienologist. And until then the destroyed city should suit me well enough...

Thank you! But....Am I the only one here to be not completely satisfied? Why am I always haunted by the feeling that the Guild still lacks in activities!?That very much depends on how one looks at things. I see the 3/4 of water in the glass and you see the missing 1/4.

As for the Ranking tests... I have to admit, I still haven't passed one... I keep thinking that Master Took will prepare for me such a list of questions that I won't be able to answer.... and then...How shall overcome the shame?! ;) :p :D [/B] Why bother at all? As I see it you are - rather successfully - longing to "behold the bigger picture" of Tolkien's work, what IMO is far more essential, than to know every single detail of it. And this is something that cannot be measured in a "test".

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by gilgalad
Don't forget the Tower of Babel, that's the best thread around!!!;)
For me the best thread is "The Hall of Lectures".It's a magnificent thread!

[Gil-Galad]

1/ WHY did you join the Guild?
Because of the persons who are in the Guild,because of the interesting activities which are happening,because that is a place where I can learn more about Tolkien.
2/ WHAT do you expect to see happening in the Guild?
I expect to see "The Gallery of Characters".A thread that I will start tonight.
3/ WHAT are the faults of the administration body of the Guild?
Probably that the new ranking is not working and many (including me)have not determined our new status.
6/ WHAT is the purpose of the Ranks and the Ranking Tests? Does one need to get a rank?
Yes.We are talking about Tolkienology (it should be a kind of science),so I think there should be ranking representing everybody's cognition about Tolkien and his world.

[Finarfin]

Why doesnt anyone post in the trivia section? The guild should have more lighthearted threads.

[Lhunithiliel]

Just waiting for someone to revive it up ! ;) :D

Go for it!

And people, don't forget about the "Event" - thread too! It's very interesting... at least I have a lot of fun there!

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Finarfin
Why doesnt anyone post in the trivia section? The guild should have more lighthearted threads.

I think that the Guild is not a lighthearted one and that's its charm and efficiency. If there were too many lighthearted threads it would not be as serious and thorough as it is now.
The study of Tolkien is a very serious task and the lighthearted threads are of no help here. I think that if somebody wants to have a rest he'll go to another Guild or section.

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Just waiting for someone to revive it up ! ;) :D

Go for it!

And people, don't forget about the "Event" - thread too! It's very interesting... at least I have a lot of fun there!

Hey, Lhun I'm still waiti