Discussion: Impact of the Noldor

[Anamatar IV]

Here is a new dicussion thread for the guild of elves. It is a discussion on the impact that the Noldor had on Middle-earth. Remember that not all Elves were Noldor-the Silvan elves were not...and I believe those were the only 2 clans of elves present in Beleriand.:)

[Maeglin]

Well of course there were the dark elves too, but they don't really count as a clan I don't think. I'll post some more to get this discussion started later but I'm trying to finish a take-home test for Biology and its driving me insane!:mad:

[Anamatar IV]

I will start it off by saying the Noldor had a very specific ripple effect to Lord of the Rings in that they (Feanor) created the Silmarils.

The phial of Galadriel contained the light of Earendil and the light of Earendil was indeed a Silmaril. Frodo warded off Shelob for a time with the light. If the Silmarils had not been made (assume there was war on Morgoth for another reason) then Frodo and Sam may have been killed by Shelob and Sauron regain the ring...but of course if there were no Silmarils Earendil would not have been able to move the Valar to pity for he was led to Aman by the Silmaril upon his brow...but possibly there would be no reason for the valar to be moved to pity...hmmm

[Maeglin]

Is there any proof that the phial of Galadriel was a Silmaril?:confused:

[Anamatar IV]

It was not a Silmaril...yet it was the light of Earendil the star. Earendil was the brightest star because of the Silmaril.

[Maeglin]

Ahhh yes, good point, so its close enough anyway.:)

[Isal Celebalda]

If they hadn't created the Silmaril's, then there may have been no war on Morgoth until much later... but if there still had been a war on Morgorth then the war might have been harded. I say this because Morgoth was weakened and in constant pain from the Silmaril's, so he was not a full strength. A war on Morgoth with full strength maybe would have been more difficult, so perhaps his theft of the Silmarils was a hidden blessing?

[Ramagna]

Isal Celebalda, why was Morgoth weakened from the Silmaril?
I didn't know about that... I thought he as every other being was just impressed by their beauty, and the light of the trees that had been caught in them? I only knew that they burned inside Morgoths wolf...

To the Noldors impact, I would say, that it had mainly been Feanors impact... as said, he created the Silmaril... and it was his hate and want of revenge that drove the Noldor out of Valinor back to middleearth, and to the wars with Morgoth...

And so, the Noldor brought the wisdom they had gained from the Valar to middleearth... and I would say, this had certainly an impact...

But I would say, Luthiens father Thingol, and his wife, the Maia Melian had as Non-Noldor as well a great impact...

[Anamatar IV]

The Silmarils were just an example.

If the Noldor had not come to Middle-earth there would be no swords and the like-as they did introduce those to the world...does anyone have anything about this?

[Ramagna]

I thought the Noldor as other eldar became weapons of steel first from the dwarfs...

[Anamatar IV]

Well, no. Feanor had crafted swords before the Noldor left Aman and the Elves and Dwarves first came upon each other well later.

[Carantalath]

The Noldor also had a very large impact on Middle Earth because some of the Noldor elves created the rings of power, if I'm not mistaken.

The Noldor, as said before, also had a large impact on Middle Earth with the making of the Silmarils. If the Silmarils were never made, then Melkor could not have taken them, which led Feanor and the others return to Beleriand. If that hadn't happened, then the entire history of Middle Earth would have been changed.

[Anamatar IV]

Good point with the Rings of Power. Celebrimbor grand son of Feanor wrought the three rings of power in "mockery" of his grand fathers three Silmarils.:)

[gate7ole]

The great impact of the Noldor is mostly seen IMO, at the Second War of Beleriand. As you know, the first war was partly victorious for Morgoth, since he almost destoyed the Grren-Elves and Cirdan had a hard time. Thingol decided then to fence his realm. Morgoth would no doubt strike again soon, and then all Beleriand would be under his command (except Doriath). This tragic future was changed by the unexpected arrival of the Feanorians and later the other Noldor. They managed to constrain Morgoth in Angband and had a period of 300 years of peace.


I hope its allright that I'm not a part of your guild. If there's a problem, let me know and I'll delete it.

[Anamatar IV]

No troubles, gate.:) I think the guild would be honored to have you participate.

[Maeglin]

Its fine Gate7ole, its good to have someone such that knows so much about it helping us out.;)

[Lasgalen]

The Noldor, especially Finrod Felagund, taught much to the Men that come westward. I would consider that an impact. And of course, without the Noldor, we would not have Elrond. One of his relatives (Idril) was Noldo.

-Lasgalen

[Nóm]

Another impact the Noldor had was that they served as a link between the Valar and men (as well as the Moriquendi).
Except for Tour the men did not communicated with the Valar, they did not get any messages the Valar might try to send them, but through friendship with the Noldor they learned much about the Valar, Morgoth, and Iluvatar.

The meeting with Finrod really saved the race of men from falling into evil. It was something of a gift to those men who forsook the worship of darkness in the east and risking their lives went west.

I like to compare Finrod's meeting with the Edain to that of Orome meeting the elves.

An interesting thing found in Morgoth's Ring (that is the History of Middle-earth X) is that the Valar invited the elves to dwell in Aman not only because Melkor might harm them physically, but because his presense was a hinderance on their spirit. In fact, in the early days the elves had shorter life spans because they had not learned how to keep their bodies healthy.
The elves were lifted to a new level, and their own abilities came to fruitation because of there intaction with the Valar, and likewise contact with the elves (in specific, the Noldor) enlightened men, and enhanced those naturally characteristics for good. But then we have Numenor, and I could even liken that to the curse of the Noldor. A stain on the group of those who were greatest in knowledge among their kind.
And though the greatest fell (Numenor, curse of Noldor), of it, knowledge and skill was passed among the remaining people (Moriquendi & Edain, then non-Edain men).

Just didn't want this topic to fall into darkness.

[Anamatar IV]

In fact, in the early days the elves had shorter life spans because they had not learned how to keep their bodies healthy.

Could you elaborate, Nom? Weren't Elves immortal?

What I get from your post is that the Noldor were accountable for the passage of knowledge to the other races and the Downfall of the other races. But you cannot tell me with Moriquendi did not have vast wisdom and skill. The people of Doriath built the thousand caves of Menegroth before Feanor made the Silmarils. The Teleri made the beautiful ships and havens (well I suppose this is useless because the Teleri had contact with the Valar, as did the Noldor). The Dwarves, though they were instructed by the Noldor, were building their great caves before the Noldor returned. True, the Noldor were accountable for MUCH of this, but definitly not all.

[Nóm]

Could you elaborate, Nom? Weren't Elves immortal?

They are destined to live in Arda for the entire existance of it, but they had to learn command over their bodies with their spirits. So in the beginning, they were more easily killed by injuring or disease. Whereas later on, darn near nothing would kill them.

From Morgoth's Ring:
This destruction of the hroa, causing death or the unhousing of the fea, was soon experienced by the immoral Eldar, when they awoke in the marred and overshadowed realm of Arda. Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were then less different from the bodies of Men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete
This command was, nonetheless, at all times greater than it had ever been among Men. From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The fear of the elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fear were tenacious therefore of life 'in the ramient of Arda'. and far excelled the spiris of Men in power over that 'ramient'. even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and asaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men.
As ages passed the dominance of their fear ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it...

From Morgoth's Ring:
Thus it is that the further we go back in the histories, the more often do we read of the death of the Elves of old; and in the days when the minds of the Eldalie were young and not yet fully awake death among them seemed to differ little from the death of Men.




What I get from your post is that the Noldor were accountable for the passage of knowledge to the other races and the Downfall of the other races.

They did pass knowledge and skills to men though. I do not say they are accountable for the downfall of men, though the Numenoreans would not have been if not for this contact with the elves they made when they reached Beleriand. The first fall of men happend before they came in contact with the Noldor and probably (I cannot be 100% sure) before they even met up with the Avari or Dwarves.


But you cannot tell me with Moriquendi did not have vast wisdom and skill. The people of Doriath built the thousand caves of Menegroth before Feanor made the Silmarils.
I wont tell you that.

The elves of Doriath were closer in skill to the Calaqueindi that the other Moriquendi, and this was of course because they were lead by a Calaquendi and a Maia. They hired the dwarves to build Menegroth. Certainly they had wisdom and skill, but they were not as the Calaquendi.

The Teleri made the beautiful ships and havens (well I suppose this is useless because the Teleri had contact with the Valar, as did the Noldor).
They did learn of ship building from Osse, and even Cirdan and the elves of the Falas made ships in Middle-earth. I am not saying the Noldor were superior to all of people, but they were the most wise and very skilled in crafts.

The Dwarves, though they were instructed by the Noldor, were building their great caves before the Noldor returned. True, the Noldor were accountable for MUCH of this, but definitly not all.

But the men did learn much from the Noldor. They thought Finrod Felagund was a Vala when they met him, this shows how he differed from the dwarves of dark elves that men had met in the past. These were mighty elves from Aman and it did men good to learn from them.

Menand dwarves had learned much out in the East before meeting the Eldar (Calaquendi in specific), but it can not be denied that they were further enlightend and learned by contact with these mighty Noldor from Aman. One example having nothing to do with things learned from the Noldor, is the mixing of the races Edain and Noldor, as Lasgalen pointed out, and that was a noble bloodline that lasted into the Fourth Age, major playes of the events that defeated Sauron in the Third Age, centered around the descendants of these... those of Melian and of the Noldor. Numenor fell, but the great race of Edain did not end at that.