Who's been punished by the Fall of Numenore?

[Lhunithiliel]

In brief:

Illuvatar's wrath over Numenore - was it to punish the Numenoreans.....

OR

Could we assume it was a punishment for one of the greatest mistakes of the Valar?

Who has been actually punished - Men or Gods?

Well ????

[gate7ole]

Lhun, we have argued several times about this.
What was this great mistake that the Valar comitted? Why should they be punished by Eru? I don't see anything wrong with their treatment towards the Numenoreans, who had received the greatest gift of all the Children of Iluvatar.
So, the downfall was the punishment to the Numenoreans and only to them.
What we can say about the Valar, is that their presence near the mortals was utimately destructive and thus, they were removed from the circles of the world.

[Hirila]

So the Valar were punished.

The world was created, including men and elves and everything should have gone on and on and on. But what happened? Teh Valar came and took the elves with them, letting them taste the forbidden fruit.
Much evil came from it: beginning with the wrath of Feanor, the slaughtering at Alqualonde, the downfall of Doriath, the war between dwarves and elves, Numénor, the War of the Ring.
Perhaps men, elves and dwarfs would have been the best friends throughout the Ages. Who knows.

And when the Valar had finally screwd it up by letting this Maia called Sauron corrupt Men in Numénor Iluvatar had enough. He destroyed the Island, finishing corruption there and separated Valinor from the world, perhaps hoping that peace could be restored that way.

[Lhunithiliel]

Precisely!

What I meant by "Valar's mistake" was the very act of letting first the Elves and later Men come closer to them. THIS and not their attitude towards the Children of Eru, taht I call a "mistake".

The first time - with the Elves, at the moment the decision was taken they knew it was not quite right and it was only for their love for the Firstborn and because they were concerned about their survival that the Valar took the decision to bring them to live in Aman. They regretted it later!

Then - with Men. The SAME mistake! And, yes gate7ole, we have had wonderful discussions on this subject, but still the initial act of the Valar could be considered as a mistake.
Now, if I am to debate on this subject, I will try to defend the Valar for having taken the wrong decision. Becuase their intentions were good. And because to build and maintain a whole new world was not their "main subject" ;) . With the Elves - this could be.
But to do the same mistake twice! It's only human! Not Gods' !

And taking into consideration that the Valar were actually the very first children of Eru, one could assume that he might have punished them for having made the same mistake twice!

[gate7ole]

I have some things to say about these two “mistakes” of the Valar.
Let’s deal with the second one first. The Valar decided to give a gift to the Edain that helped them at the War of Wrath. Eönwë came between then and taught them. The Eldar visited them continuously and enlighted them with their wisdom. The Númenóreans became the greatest of the Men and their heirs continued to rule the world even in the Fourth Age. These were the results of the gift of Númenor. And you speak of a mistake that they were brought too close from Valinor. I don’t agree with that. Even if they were left to ME, but were educated and taught of Aman and the Undying Lands, they would probably again fall. Only if they were left ignorant, would there be no possibility of such a fall. My point is that with great knowledge came also pride to the Men and this was not a mistake of the Valar. They couldn’t have known. And even then, what should they do? Desert the Edain to the lands of Middle-Earth, so that they would not betray them one day?
The first mistake is more controversial. The call of the Elves was the source of many evils, but of many goods too. I don’t know if the world would be better without the wisdom that the Noldor brought with them in ME and without theirs wars with Morgoth. Speaking now from a distance, I guess that the best solution would be that the Valar taught the Elves all they could, pass them their wisdom and then let them dwell alone wherever they wanted. I don’t know if this is realistic, but it would have the best result.
As a conclusion, we cannot blame the Valar for everything. IMO they acted in the best way with the Númenóreans, while with the elves they made their choice, which afterwards showed that it should have been different.

[Elfarmari]

I think it did punish both the Valar and the Numenoreans. IMHO, the Valar were good at beginning things with a good start, but not necessarily carrying it through. They did not send emissaries to Numenor until it was too late, and the Numenoreans were bent on taking eternal life by force. As to inviting the Elves to Valinor, the bad consequences of this could have been avoided, I think, by teaching the elves in Middle Earth. I think the greatest mistake on the part of the Valar was to establish Valinor as their stronghold, forsaking Middle Earth and allowing evil to grow. There is no reason I know of why the Valar could not have taught the Elves without separating them from the place of their birth. In this way there would have been no sundering of the Elves, and there would have been no reason to rebel against the Valar and leave to recover the Silmarils, had they been stolen.

[Lantarion]

Originally posted byy Elfarmari
As to inviting the Elves to Valinor, the bad consequences of this could have been avoided, I think, by teaching the elves in Middle Earth. I think the greatest mistake on the part of the Valar was to establish Valinor as their stronghold, forsaking Middle Earth and allowing evil to grow. There is no reason I know of why the Valar could not have taught the Elves without separating them from the place of their birth. In this way there would have been no sundering of the Elves, and there would have been no reason to rebel against the Valar and leave to recover the Silmarils, had they been stolen.

Exactly. I think the Valar were actually selfish and a little ignorant in assuming that the best thing for the Elves was for them to live with them. And as Manwë states in BoLT1, he realizes that the Elves cannot dwell in valinor forever, because the wide worlds were created for them to live in in the first place. And it's true, Melkor probably wouldn't have been able to get close to the Elves. But then again, how much do the Elves owe of their knowledge and expertise to the Two Trees? It is said that the 'High Elves', who had seen the light of the Trees, were more adept in many aspects.

But back to the topic: I don't think the Valar made a mistake, either with the Eldar or with Men. It was all ordained by Eru to happen in the first place! It was the fault of the stubborn and arrogant rulers of Númenor, and nobody else's, that the Land of Gift was sunk.

[Elfarmari]

While I agree that the fall of Numenor was only the fault of the kings men of Numenor, I think there were others (notably the Valar) who could have done more to prevent it. Also back to the topic, I think that the Valar were also 'punished' in a way by having Valinor removed from the realm of Arda, because they first entered the World because they loved the Vision given them by Eru and wanted to enter into it and bring the vision to fufillment. Being separated from their creation would have been at the least disappointing, I would think.

[YayGollum]

Sounds pretty crazy to me. It was the humans that were being punished. Didn't the Valar come up with the idea to not have to deal with all of those Middle Earth type places after the humans started messing around in paradise? That's what I thought. Or are you people saying that the Valar types were asking to be punished? Maybe so. Still looks like the humans were being punished by getting their island sunk. Silly, huh? :rolleyes:

[Hirila]

Once again I find myself in a position where I have to agree with all sides:

Of course the Valar only meant to help both Eldar and Edain.
Of course the Eldar somehow mistook their position in Valinor for a sign of being "higher in status" than the Afterborn.
Of course the Edain didn't like the Eldar too much for their pride.
Of course the Edain on Numénor were punished for having been so foolish as to listen to Sauron, for trying to be their own little gods.
Of course the Valar were being punished for letting things on Numénor getting too much.

Who of the actors in this story didn't mean simply the ebst (for themselves and the others) and wasn't punished in one way or another.

[That's why I like these discussions: it is so easy to change sides, because there are arguments for both sides en masse.]

I hope I didn't spoil the thing for you, now.:D