Discussion: Dark Elves

[Maeglin]

The Dark Elves are the Elves that "wandered away from the pack" as it were, they were the oucasts, the scapegoats, whatever you would like to call them. The only Dark Elf I know of that we ever hear about is Eol, and he is seemingly Evil, though maybe he is not so evil as much as he is jealous and protective of the things he owns and his family. Do you think they were all evil? Is there really any reason for them to be? And does anyone have any thoughts on why they may have decided to go off on their own? I have a few thoughts on this but I want to get a good discussion going so I won't post any of my thoughts until we get a few responses to this.

[Carantalath]

I don't think that all dark elves were evil. I think that they isolated themselves so that they wouldn't get involved in the wars and troubles of that time (for example: Morgoth was around and maybe they didn't want to get dragged into fighting a war).

[Eöl]

Hmm, Dark Elves are sort of a hobby of mine, kind of my specialty in the area of the Eldar. Here are my thoughts especially pertaining to Eol and Maeglin.


Eol was indeed, not evil but extremely jealous of all he created or owned. He had an odd bond with the dwarves not found in many Elves. His wife was actually kidnapped by him, sort of, and he tracked her when she escaped from the forest where he lived as well. He even tried to kill his son Maeglin while he was captive in Gondolin. So, not much is said elsewhere of any specific Dark Elves, but references to them always refer to "deserting the march of the Valar."

[Maeglin]

Yes thats a good point, but they did not at first realize that Morgoth was around when first they awoke, so some of them just went off on their own for no reason that we know of. And Eol's sword Gurthang got drawn into the war even if he himself didn't.

Oh sorry Celebrien, we must posted at the same time, but my post is referring more to what Carantalath said.;)

[ms Greenleaf]

Not evil so much as not elvish i think. Elves are not supposed to concern themselves with worldly possesions dark elves sound like men

[lossenandunewen]

i dunno, the greed and such seemingly portrays what we first think of dwarves in the beginning before we actually meet gimli. They dwell in caves doing nothing but mining for gold and silver and other precious things, and that's about as materialistic as it can get.

[gate7ole]

Dark Elves is the name given to the Elves that have never seen the Light of the Trees (moriquendi). E.g. the Sindar, Cirdan's folk, the Avari. Eol was a dark elf, like the others, but also he had the name dark elf, because of his grim appearence. I don't understand what is the subject of your discussion in this thread. Do you mean the Avari? If yes, I will give you my account on them.

The Avari are not completely unknown to us. I believe that the Silvan Elves were Avari. And at the end of the Third Age, we know at least 2 places were the Silvan Elves dwelt: Lorhlórien and Mirkwood. We see from the description of their realms (in Hobbit and LOTR), that they were decent people, away from evil, though they seemed less wise than the High-Elves of course. They even fought Sauron. In fact no Elda fought against Sauron at the War of the Ring (except the Sindarin and Noldorin leaders of the Silvan Elves and Elrond’s sons).
Also, from the description of the Last Alliance, we learn that the Elves were the only race not divided, since all of them stood against Sauron. This, along with the War of Wrath description leads to the conclusion that the Avari never fought in evil’s side.
One last thing. The first men learned to speak from the Avari. They were the teachers of the Fathers of Men. (This is the reason that Finrod actually understood some of their words, when he first encountered them – all elvish languages originated from the same common early language that they themselves devised). And in one of Tolkien’s early stories, the first two Men are awoken by a Dark Elf, who enchanted by seeing them asleep, wanted to speak to them.
I don’t know if you think the Avari as evil, but personally, I’m sure that they were good. They only differ from their “enlighted” kin in the amount of knowledge and wisdom they have acquired. Yes, they rejected the offer of the Valar. But then, it would be very possible that they rejected the calls of the other Vala, Morgoth. They remained more or less independent, not wanting any kind of kingship over ME, satisfied to run their own small realms (as the Silvan realms showed).

[Ramagna]

What a pitty, I wanted to join the discussion, but gate7ole just said all, no need to add more from my side...

[gate7ole]

OK, I take back what I said about the Silvan Elves being Avari.
Take a look at the thread I opened on the subject and what I found after some research:
Are the Silvan Elves Avari? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9097)

And this discussion intrigued me to search the topic, so thanks.

[Scatha]

Most people involved in roleplaying games, tend to see 'dark elves' as being evil. This is mainly due to the works of Salvatore, when he created the drow for D&D.

A lot of people fail to see the difference between the two.
Personally, besides Tolkien, one of my favorite writers is R.E.Feist.
His dark elves (moredhel) are the middle road between both forementioned types of 'dark elf'. Like Tolkien, he has a sharp eye for detail and follows several people throughout his books.

[ms Greenleaf]

It is interesting to see how many writers were inspired by TOlkien

JK ROWLING (don't shoot me)
Ursala le guin (th;ough only moderatly
and the writer of the dragon reborn series old whats his name

[WarriorMay]

Were you thinking about Robert Jordan?

Most people involved in roleplaying games, tend to see 'dark elves' as being evil. This is mainly due to the works of Salvatore, when he created the drow for D&D.

I agree. When people think about 'dark elves' they usually mean an evil elf. I think it's because when we use the word 'dark' we are usually trying to portray someone or something that bad.

[ms Greenleaf]

Yes that was his name. Looking at it from a phycholgical point of view people associate darkness and unknowingness (is that even a word) with evil. Because we don't understand something we consider it wrong maybe Tolkien was looking at that side of human nature when he wrote about dark elves..,

[Lossen Vana]

It is interesting to see how many writers were inspired by TOlkien: J.K. Rowling

I just made a post on that in another forum. I agree. Got a question is a dark elf like a Drow or are they Drows? And since my knolege is alittle fuzzy about them what are Drows again?

[Scatha]

The drow are a race of elves with black or obsidian colored skin, that live underground in a place called Har'oloth. They have no similarity with the dark elves that Tolkien wrote about.

Tolkien's dark elves are elves that strayed from the path of light, but are no where near as evil as the drow described by Salvatore.

If you want to read up on the drow, here's a link:

The drow fortress (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/5637/Fortress.html)

Compare that with what is written in this thread, then you'll know the difference.

[Lossen Vana]

Thanks!

[Scatha]

You're welcome, Lossen.

D&D elves were once my specialty, having played nothing but those in various RP's for about 12 years.