Who are the real first born: Elves, Balrogs or Dwarves?

[Beren Erchanion]

Ok Ok I already know that elves are "The first born" so don't panic Ijust want to specify something. There was a war before the first children of Ilùvatar came on Arda. A war between Melkor and his balrogs and the Valars and Maïars. Dwarves were created by Aulë when Melkor was really powerful in the pre-elven world and they were breathing and moving, they were alive ( just for a few moment of course!) when the Elves were still "sleeping". So in my heart Elves are the first born but I vote for Balrogs cuz Melkor was able to do anything include being faster than Eru by bringing his own creatures before him. So what do you think about it?

[Telchar]

Balrogs were renegade Maiar, and was not created by Melkor.. The Maiar were Ainur, the Ainur were created by Eru..

[Mr. Underhill]

... also when Aule created the Dwarves they may have had "life" but lacked freewill. They were like little robots that could only do specifically what Aule instructed (they had no "souls"). Eru took pity on Aule for wanting to have little followers (and he was honest about it and didn't try to hide them) so he agreed to give them freewill but only after the Elves awoke. That's why I voted for the Elves.

[Grond]

It is clear that by the will of Iluvator, the Firstborn are the Elves, Quoting from the Ainulindale, "...And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvator, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its beauty... Now the Children of Iluvator are Elves and men, the Firstborn and the Followers..."

As has already been stated, the Balrogs are corrupted Maia and were never born but were in the beginning. Dwarves were created soley by Aule but were tansformed into something more by Iluvator. But they too were made to rest and wait until the coming of the Firstborn.

[Beren Erchanion]

I don't think that balrogs are corrupted maia, where do you get it I probably missed a part...So you're telling me that the balrog who "killed" Gandalf in the moria was a Maia (so the equal of Sauron)? I don't think so... If Aulë can create stuff like Dwarves imagine waht Melkor can create and perhaps Melkor sign his own song before the creation. Aulë couldn't take care of his Dwarves because he had something else to do like taking care of his element (the stones and the metals etc.). But melkor don't have a "job" like other Ainurs so he can create "robots" and do wath he want whit it. If Aulë got the idea to do it so melkor can have an even better one. Well one thing is sure, an Orc is not an Elf right? but it seems that Orcs are corrupted Elfs like Balrogs are corrupted Maiars. So a Balrog is a totally diferrent creature than a Maia it's a Melkor's child. I always knew that Elves were supposed to be there first on Arda but Balrog were "enjoying" Arda before them and Aulë was in Arda when he creates the Dwarves but he didn't knew what elves were looking like because they didn't have a body yet so Dwarves get their body before Elves so my real question would be more like : If elves are the first human the second wich rank are balrogs and dwarves? Cuz whit what you said it seems that they all got a reason to be called the firstborn for me(My stricly personal conviction). Balrogs corrupted Maiar I can't fix it in my mind I thoght they were in Melkor's song like Dragons and giant spider (do you really think that Eru would have bring creature like that by Himself on arda? I don't!) do you think I'm wrong or I'm right...?

[Mr. Underhill]

Well ... if you're asking for my opinion ... I think you may have a few details messed up a little.

[Gothmog]

First of all Balrogs are Maiar who were drawn to Melkor at the hight of his power and Majesty and then were corrupted by him. Not all Maiar are of the same power. Sauron was the most powerful Maia of Aule (and probably one of the most powerful of all the Maiar) before being corrupted by Melkor. Probably the only Balrog to come near to Sauron in power was Gothmog.

I voted for Dwarves, as the seven Fathers of the Dwarves were born before the Elves and Eru gave to them freedom and a place in his plan. However, Eru would not allow them to come before the Children of his Choice and therefore they were put to sleep until the comming of the First Born of Eru's Children of Choice. This is only a technicality as the Fathers of the Dwarves were not awake for long before being hidden away to await the coming of the Elves.

[Valinorean]

Originally posted by Beren Erchanion
like Dragons and giant spider (do you really think that Eru would have bring creature like that by Himself on arda? I don't!) do you think I'm wrong or I'm right...?
It is not for the Valar, or the elves, or humans, or dwarves - to fully comprehend the plan of Eru. Everything - good and evil - comes from Eru for a reason.

When Melkor caused a discord in The Music, Eru was not enraged. He didn't even seem surprised. He simply let a new part of his plan unfold, and began a new theme in The Music.

[Beren Erchanion]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gothmog
[B]First of all Balrogs are Maiar who were drawn to Melkor at the hight of his power and Majesty and then were corrupted by him.

So if Balrogs are Maiar, Orcs are Elves!

My opinion is they were Maiar (I check in my Sil book thank to correct me everybody) ;) but they are no more a Maiar like gandalf is not a maiar but Olorìn is one (well it's a little bit more difficult to explain (see Gandalf the white? Help! Thread for more details)) . An orc was an elf but it's no more an elf... everybody agree I hope :rolleyes: I don't know if Tolkien wright it somewhere but I don't think taht Balrogs can come back from death nor can return into maiar form, otherwise Melkor had succeed a long time before the Ring. When Melkor corrupt some peoples they are no more what they were, they are what Melkor wanted them to be: a totally diferrent creature reborn in something else than they are supposed to...a Melkor's child... So Melkor put the creatures he wanted on Arda before Eru bring the Firstborn that's what I meant by saying the Balrogs were born first. Ok they were already born as Maiar But if the Valar had lost the "War before the Elves" it's not a Maiar who had welcome the Elves at Cuìviénen lake But probably Gothmog. Tolkien keep a lot of mystery in his work and it's not easy to "fill the holes" but it's pleasant.

[Gothmog]

Beren.

When you compare the Ainur who came to Arda with the people who were Born into Arda you run into a problem. The Ainur when they decended into Arda became the Valar and the Maiar according to their level of power. They were not bound to the bodies that they created themselves but just used them in the same way as we use clothes. The Balrogs did not Die but the phyical form they were then using was destroyed, as Maiar they could not Die. As for them not returning after the destruction of their bodies, I started a thread on this very subject in The Hall of Fire called Balrogs Again!!

The people who were Born into Arda were bound to their physical form and when that form was destroyed then in the case of the Elves they went to Mandos and later back to Arda (in most cases at least). For men, they went to Mandos and then left Arda completely. In the case of the Dwarves, it is not known what really happens.

As for Elves being turned to Orcs by Melkor, this is in the books as a supposition of the Elves when they first saw them but it is not comfirmed.

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno. or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumnp was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruekty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.
The Silmarillion: Of the coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor: page 58

Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in teh wild; in which they gussed all too near, it is said.
the Silmarillion:Of the Sindar : page 110

With Men, those that Melkor corrupted remained Men even though they had turned to Evil.

[Grond]

***You may ignore my post if you desire. Gothmog answered this before my nimble fingers could compose my post. His post addresses all of the issues I was trying to cover.***

Beren, I don't think you're wrong.... I know you're wrong. We have the words of Mr. J. R. R. Tolkien which I will quote to you from the Silmarillion out of the Valaquenta, chapter Of The Enemies, page 31 in my Sil, "Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."

Tolkien's description states that they were corrupted Maiar and not created. Also, Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, and Balrogs were all Maiar. Doesn't it make sense that Gandalf would have been vanquished by someone of equal stature, although, that isn't necessary. (After all, Ecthelion of the Fountain, a mere Elda, did vanquish Gothmog, a very powerful Maia.)

I find many of your statements of fact to be unsupported by the works of the Author. I say this with no disrespect, but before you post you might want to check the validity of your statements in the books.

[Beren Erchanion]

Ok everybody Iwill defend my idea with this :(
I re-re-re-check my unfinished tales of the third Age and it's written:" The Valar send members of their own Great Concil to the ME and they were wearing human bodies (not just appearance) so they can suffert pain starving and even death(...)so they can understand how peoples are suffering..." so Saruman is a Maiar but he finnaly died like a poor mortal because the Valar change him that way. If the valar can change a maiar that much Iwonder what the Dark Prince can do with them. If Balrogs just lose their body but not their soul so I believe that Melkor is more stupid than I expected...(what would surprise me) but I will continue my search of the truth because you didn't convince me yet!:rolleyes:

Whit this poll I just wanted to create confusion and if this poll wasn't mine I'd vote for Elves because it's the true answer I just wanted A good debate about the Firstborn concept and it's seems to go much further... thank for your collaboration guys!;)

[Grond]

If one cannot be convinced by the Author's own writings, then one just can't be convinced.

[telperion]

the answer is all in the book of lost tales ...
when you only read the silmarillion i can understand that you get confused because christopher had to comprise a bible.
and i see nowhere a discussion of the cottage of lost play , in my mind the most mindboggling setting of telling the history of the very beginning of the beginning of time?,,,,,,,,,...........

[Telchar]

Hi & Welcome to the Tolkien Forum! :)

The Cottage of Lost Play in UT, or in HoME? I don't know if there is one in UT, haven't read that book yet, but there is one in HoME..

[telperion]

I've bought the book of lost tales some years ago now and i recently puchased the book of lost tales two and the lays of beleriand and the shaping of middle earth which deals more of the quenta, and that name was not used for the eldar in the beginning , but in all of these books an explanation is added by the son of the author ,christopher, with a detailed report on how he found the work , in which state , and the chronology and methinks he did a swell job . often the chrono goes a bit beyond me but i'm from holland and the understanding of some passages in old english is sometimes hard to comprehend.
The books are of Unwin paperbacks but it is a hard cover.....
i'm glad to see so many to the likings of professor Tolkien.................:) :) :)

[telperion]

no not in unfinished tales , but in the book of lost tales volume 1 where Eriol the man set out to find the island that he saw in his dreams ,awakened by the stories of his fathers father who ventured too far as a child while playing at the cottage of play (that wasn't lost then) and heard the Solosimpi pipe their pipes(the shore elves -later the teleri)
Also very confusing is the usage of the word gnome for the people who never left palisor.......

[Cian]

Hullo Telperion and welcome.

Right, "gnome" was an early designation for those Elves called the Noldoli, (literary precursors of the later Noldor), compare Greek gnóme 'thought, intelligence'.

Generally pointing out: that the Lost Tales, the Mythology for England, is a very early one, and not necessarilly always conceptually in tune with later "Silmarillion" traditions. I love it, Tevildo included.

[Beren Erchanion]

Ok guys watch my new thread cause everybody are against my idea and it's too difficult for me to debate about such lost details of Tolkien's world in a foreign language, even if I understand everything you said but it seems that peoples don't really understand what I truly want to say.


P.S.I know now that Balrogs were maia but you didn't bring a Tolkien wrighting that tell they are still Maia and I still believe that orc are not elves anymore.

[Ancalagon]

Alrighty, lets not lose sight of the original poll.

'Who were the real firstborn; Elves, Balrogs or Dwarves?'

Okay, this is my opinion, always up for debate and I will deal with Balrogs first.

Being Maiar, as Gothmog and Grond both pointed out is a good starting point for solving this debate.

I will quote to you from the Silmarillion out of the Valaquenta, chapter Of The Enemies, page 31 in my Sil, "Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."

In the Silmarillion we know that the Ainur (The 'Holy Ones') were the offspring of the thought of Eru (Iluvatar) and they were with him before aught else was made. They were without shape or form at this time within The Timeless Halls. The Maiar were a multitude of lesser Ainur, servants to the greatest, known as the Valar, who numbered fifteen. They are not known as the firstborn, because that had been a design known only to Iluvatar himself, possibly even before the Music of the Ainur. So these entities were simply extensions of Iluvatars own mind, yet given freedom to craft according to their own will, after the fashion in which they were created.

Balrogs were simply an embodiment of their own spirit in a fashion they thought would make a mockery of all that was beautiful in the eyes of those who had created Arda and its content. As the servants of Melkor, they fashioned themselves after him, not as many of those who were faithful to Iluvatar had made themselves beautiful or majestic. Remember; ‘Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible , clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible.’ (Sil. Ainulindale 23)

So we can understand from this and many other numerous quotes, the reason for his servants clothing themselves in the raiment of both shadow and fire. We also know that they were not creations of Melkor, for they travelled to Middle-Earth with him; ‘Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come. And he passed therefroeover the Walls of Night with his host, and came to Middle-Earth far in the North; and the Valar were not aware of him.’ (Sil. Of the Beginning of Days 40/41).

More importantly; ‘ And in Utumno he (Melkor) gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness and terror went before them: they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in middle-earth in later days’.

Hence we know that from these passages, Balrogs were Maiar, they were clad in raiment of dark and fire and that they travelled from the Undying Lands. Melkor corrupted not all, they had chosen this path for that was their own desire, in awe of the glory of Melkor, but not necessarily corrupted. So that counts them out as being the Firstborn.

Dwarves: Aule created these, long before the coming of both Elves and Men. They were not made in mockery of the Firstborn, as Melkor did with Orcs after the coming of the firstborn. Aule, the greatest craftsman, created them in his eagerness to teach his lore and crafts. Though because he was unsure of the mind of Iluvatar and because of the destruction of Melkor, he created a hardy and unyielding race as children. Therefore, he made the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-Earth.

Iluvatar knew of this, and even as Aule began to instruct them in speech that he had devised, spoke to him; ‘Why dost thou attempt a thing which is beyond thy power and thy authority?’ (Sil. Of Aule and Yavanna 49)

However, Aule pleaded his case for his creation, to the point where he was prepared to smite them with a great hammer. Most importantly, IMHO, the Dwarves were afraid, and bowed their heads begging for mercy. Iluvatar took pity on Aule for he understood and knew his humility. But Iluvatar spoke;

First saying; ‘ Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things now have a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.’

Secondly;

‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given it a place therein; but in no other way shall I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so it shall be. But I will not suffer this; that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth.’

This I believe explains that Dwarves were not as robots, but actual living, breathing beings, which knew fear and understood compassion. Iluvatar himself accepts that they had life, and he would not alter their creation in any way; only deny their rising as the first beings on middle-earth. Here I can only agree with Gothmog.

Elves; I will not harp on about Elves for the tale is to numerous to translate. However, all must agree that Elves were the actual creation of Iluvatar himself. His thought gave them life, which is why he called them the firstborn.

‘It is told that even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long, when first Menelmacar strode up to the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Iluvatar.’ (Sil. Of the Coming of the Elves 56)

Therefore, I surmise the following based on the original question; 'who were the real firstborn; Elves, Balrogs or Dwarves?'

1.Elves were the Firstborn, the Children of Iluvatar, and the actual design of the creator himself.

2.Dwarves were the first to be born, but not in the image that Iluvatar had himself moulded for his own children. They did however come first as I have shown earlier.

3.Balrogs were not creations of Melkor, they were not born of this earth, but extensions of the (possible darker side of the) thoughts of Iluvatar. They were lesser Ainur, known as Maiar and spirits allied to Melkor. Their fate after death is still unknown, though I am a believer in the fact that Mandos (or Namo) is the keeper of all the spirits of the dead, no matter whom that spirit may belong to. For all the Maiar are spirits, even though many had taken bodily form. ‘He is the doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgements only at the bidding of Manwe’. (Sil. Valaquenta 30)


That will do me for now.

[Grond]

Beren, I cannot respond to your orc/elf conflict as I do not yet own the HoME nor the UT. I do seem to remember that Mr. Tolkien wrote that the orcs were made as a mockery of elves but I'm almost certain that Melkor used men as his raw material. (Somebody help me who knows). As far as the corruption of the Maia into Balrogs, I know of no resource anywhere that would support a Maia no longer being of the Ainur. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, the two Blue Wizards, Sauron, Melian, and Balrogs all chose to house their spirits in a different vessel (in a physical body and not a spiritual one) but I know of nothing in any of Mr. Tolkien's writings that would indicate that an Ainu, whether Vala or Maia, can truly be destroyed. I don't think Sauron or Saruman were destroyed of being, they were just banished to somewhere else, maybe the void with Melkor.

Having said all this, I think you make many astute arguments Beren and I'm sure some of your thoughts are unclear to us, to whom English is the primary language, as some of our thoughts are not clear to you due to the language gap. Please understand that we aren't attacking you, but simply expressing our opinions which may not agree with yours. Heck, us English speakers can't agree among ourselves either.

(Yippeee! Thanks Beren for bringing up the subject for my post #400)

[Beren Erchanion]

Ok Ok thank you Ancalagon I read your reply really fast cause I'm already lat at a rendez-vous but I'll read the details later i just want to ask a last question about it "When Melkor corrupt those rebels Maiars and make them change into Balrogs, did he create a new creature a new lifeform that "enjoyed" Arda before the elves. Or Balrogs are not a new life form? because in my mind it's clear that an orc is something else than an elf even since I know that they were Elves before so they are born after them When Melkor change them into orc...so orc are not part of the firstborn(my opinion) But it seems different for balrogs and I haven't read something specefic on it yet. But I know for sure that even if Maiar are ainur with less power and were never born they can be change enough to die and never come from "Where only Eru knows" like if they nevwer were Maiar( because that's what happen when a mage, an Istari, die). I just wonder if you think that Melkor is strong enough to change a Maiar into Something far away from a Maiar, so far that even after death their destiny is change forever. Because I think so.:)

[Ancalagon]

Good point. Maiar were not all corrupted by Melkor, especially Balrogs, this was simply the form they chose to take in the image of their master, Melkor. Those whom he did corrupt would have chosen their own hideous forms to resemble the mood and bitterness their master portrayed.
As for actual life-forms in middle-earth that Melkor did create, these were created from the beings that had sprung to life within middle-earth long after the arrival of Melkor and his legions. These beings, such as Elves, Men, Ents and other beasts were twisted and tortured, bred and blended by his evil arts. He could only attempt to create creatures as mockeries of the beauty created by the music of the Ainur.
Remember, those whom Melkor brought with him to middle-earth were not of Melkors making, they were creations of the thought of Iluvatar before the creation of Arda. They chose their own form, shape and raiment, they followed Melkor and created themselves in the image of his evil.

[Beren Erchanion]

One more thing for you Grond. Again my Istari example as proof for the influence that an Ainur can have on a Maia. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the two blue mages are not Maiar they are human trapped for the eternity in their oldman body it's not like a changing of form just the appearance. Olorìn was a Maiar, Gandalf no more...It's the Valar concil who changed them like that. They are able to do it to everyone except maybe on themselves and they did it many times...like Elros and Elrond chose the specie they wanted they even change an half-Maiar in a mortal, Lùthien(for example as specie changing the only example of turning a man immortal trapped in his body it's when Melkor doomed Hùrin and his fammily he tight him on top of the Tangorodrim). They are able to do magic but not too powerful unlike Sauron, they must not convert peoples but convict them to fight Sauron and the Vala put them in a human body for that specific reason: by suffering the pain of an oldman body they are more able to understand how the peoples are suffering what is it to be a human in the ME. They can suffer starving, thurst, pain, heat, everything like human and that include death...like human.
Post-mortal changement and when Gandalf came back from death after the fight with the balrog it's because he once was a maia but because the Valars are able to do so like they did with Beren. And I'm now reaching the point (:D keep the faith). Melkor is the most powerful Valar or at least equal of Manwë right? so what Manwë can do, Melkor can do right? So the Maia who were change in balrog by Melkor can have suffer the same treatment than the ones who've been change in Istari so they are no more Maiar but something else...another specie the first on Arda...I'm searching a book talking about that because I like my hypothesis. ;) All the Istari part came from LostTales of 3rd Age but for the Balrogs...that's why I post this thread.

by the way I was kidding for the attack!!:D

[Grond]

I sure as heck better get the Histories of Middle Earth for Christmas because it is impossible for me to respond to your your post, Beren, without reading them.

The language thing is confusing me again, you state, "...Again my Istari example as proof for the influence that an Ainur can have on a Maia..." The Silmarillion is very clear that the Maiar are Ainur, just like the Valar. In reading the Sil, it appears that Sauron, Melian and Balrogs have the ability to choose the vessel of the corporeal existence... so why wouldn't the Istari have the ability as well, especially at the bidding of the Council of the Vala. I know that Gandalf could not remember much of his existence in Aman, but he did quote that "...Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten..." (TT, Window on the West, spoken by Faramir to Frodo). So, Gandalf new who he was, he just didn't have great memory of Aman.

I will not address these issues any more until I get the HoME and can either agree or disagree with facts. I will respectfully bow out until then. Now, Ancalagon.... sic him!

By the way, Beren... we would have already squished you to floor gravy but for Luthien's beautiful song that put all of us to sleep. Man can that chick sing!! It was like my boss had a hangover for a week after you two left. I wonder if she sang in the key of Rum or Vodka?

[Flame of Utumno]

This question depends on the context you are using 'First Born'.
When I think of 'First Born' I look at it as being in relation to the Children of Iluvatar, and since only Elves and Men are children of Iluvatar then the Elves are the first born. Dwarves are a creation of Aule and were never 'Born' but were created by Aule.

[Beren Erchanion]

Eru punised Melkor by taking him the power to create life the same power that Aulë used to create the dwarves. And Eru did it before he send the Valas on Arda to prevent a lot of pain. So his only way to create life is by corrupting it. That's why they're was some creatures awaken on arda before the coming of the first born. If you considere that the first born are the first creature/lifeform to lived on Arda and not just the first to be send by Eru (because he didn't control everything scince Melkor's rebellion) Balrogs and Dwarves can pretend to the "First-Born Crown" either.

[Gothmog]

Melkor never had the power to creat living creatures nor did Aule.
Now Iluvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour tat Aule's work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves int the speech that he had devised for them, Iluvatar spoke to him; and Aule heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Iluvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dowt thaou attempt a thing which thow knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?
The Silmarillion: Of Aule and Yavanna : page 49

And later in the same chapter:
Then Aule took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. But Iluvatar had compassion upon Aule and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and were afraid, and thy bowed down their heads and begged for mercy. And the voice of Iluvatar said to Aule: 'Thy offer i accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they could not have flinched from thy blow, not from any command of thy will.' Then Aule cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Iluvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and ammend it!'

So it was not Aule that gave life to the Dwarves but Eru himself, the only one who could. So by his Adopotion of the Dwarves they, in my opinion are the 'First to be Born' but were not allowed to come before the "Firstborn of my design" as is stated by Eru.

[Perhana]

You are all wrong. I voted for other. Is Tom Bombadil the first-born? He is the oldest living thing in middle-earth. Are you calling Tom a Liar? I don't think you should, he is powerful and perilous in his own way.

[Gothmog]

Could you tell us just when Tom Bombadil was Born. It seems from all that can be found out about Tom that he was not born in Arda but came with the Valar and the Maiar and could be one of them.

[Perhana]

The question is not when Tom Bombadil was born, but was he the first born. He says he's the oldest. By questioning this, you are insinuating that Bombadil is a lying "crack-pot old fool". I, for one, trust Bombadil, and here you have just insulted his integrity. Good day, sir! Bombadil speaks the truth!

[Beren Erchanion]

That would be awesome if everybody were reading all the previews replies before because sometimes it's going far away from where it beggan. For Tom, I think there is still a thread about it debating about what he really his. I remember that Tolkien said that it's amasing sometimes to put some mystery around a character especially when you know the answer and that's no to weird for th readers..;) So I think that Tom is obviously a Maia so he cannot be include in this firstborn debate. I think I said all I have to said about my problematic question of the firstborn concept. I just wanted to create confusion by including balrogs in my question (cause I know they were Maiar before Arda). Tolkien couldn't finish didn't want to finish or didn't know how to finish his masterpiece, The Silmarilion, so the reader have to search and search again to fill the holes that our good genius at all left behind... so please read the previews reply you'll probably found something that would reach your hypothesis because who can really know the answer, we can only try to figure how it supposed to be or it would be...

[knightwolf]

An ancient evil that none of you are capable of defeating...of the three choices given the Balrog is the oldest. The heritage of the elves were borne of the Valar. Not much is known about the history of the Dwarves to compare. However in middle earth of the this presentation the dwarves predated the Nolder and Numenorean landings.

I voted for the others category because of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, the Istari who were the caretakers appointed to Middle Earth by the Valar and Sauron the apprentice of Morgoth. Just a few to think on...

[Ancalagon]

Who are the real first born: Elves, Balrogs or Dwarves?

Dont lose track of the original question, remeber Balrogs are Maiar and are not born of Middle-Earth, they are certainly not first-born.

[Grond]

Beren.... I've never seen where Tolkien identifies Tom as a Maia. He simply refers to him as an "enigma" in his letters. Tom was a story that predated tLotR and JRRT just kind of threw him in where he fit.

[Beren Erchanion]

I never said that Tolkien wright that Tom was a maia I just said he answered in an interview about Tom,: " It's interesting to put some mystery around a character especially when you know there's an answer and the readers have a possibillity to discover it." Something like that he din't answer the question Tom is just a little pleasure of wrighter. He volontary put some mystery around him by unreaveling his natur. Remember that Tolkien never knew that the Sil will be release and there is no mention of maia in tLotR. But now we know what is a creature who was there before everything and will be there after everything. The first, and the last. The Ainur were there before Arda and will be there after Arda. He's defenitly not Eru himself :rolleyes: nor a Vala :confused: ( I wonder why did a Vala would come to Middle Earth and stay happilly in a little house singing songs). I don't see anything except a maia.

[Grond]

Beren, other things were created in the Song of the Ainur. Things that came out of Melkor's discourse. Ungoliant for one. No where is her origin identified nor the time of her making. You will find her origin briefly outlined in The Silmarillion, Chapter 8, Of the Darkening of Valinor.

Also, Gandalf states when describing his encounter with the Balrog in The Two Towers, "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day..."

Tom, to my mind, most likely sprung from the song when Eru's beautiful tenor brought Tom into existence. But, he's an enigma, who knows for sure? No one. But Grond does not think he is a Maia.

[Tulkas]

It's really hard to say depending on what you mean. Balrogs might be the oldest because they were the corrupted Maiar, but if you say that Balrogs were not "born" until corrupted things get confusing.

Dwarfs were really the first over the elves to be able to make physical movements so to speak. When the dwarfs were created I belive that the eleves were "sleeping" so that creates controversy.

Elves however were the first born Children of Illuvatar. So if that's what you mean Elves would most definately be correct.

Then if you include other creatures that opens a whole world of debate, because for creatures like Tom Bombadil, whom we have discussed, we don't exactly know when he was born (or at least I don't). Even if we knew when Tom came to the world we don't know exactly how to classify him.

So I have no vote.

[Anira the Elf]

if you've read the sil. u'd know it would be the elves.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Beren Erchanion
Ok Ok I already know that elves are "The first born" so don't panic Ijust want to specify something. There was a war before the first children of Ilùvatar came on Arda. A war between Melkor and his balrogs and the Valars and Maïars. Dwarves were created by Aulë when Melkor was really powerful in the pre-elven world and they were breathing and moving, they were alive ( just for a few moment of course!) when the Elves were still "sleeping". So in my heart Elves are the first born but I vote for Balrogs cuz Melkor was able to do anything include being faster than Eru by bringing his own creatures before him. So what do you think about it?



If you think the balrogs are the first born then so are the other maia, valar, tom bombadil and also the ents yavanna made b4 the coming of elves.

[dgoof911]

I beleive the "true" first born or created were the Valar or the Ainur. They were the frist things created by Eru. Therefore, they are the first ones. The first borns of Illuvater (Eru) are the elves, but im am just following the question.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I beleive that like what ancalgon states that in the mind of eru that the elves were the firstborn in his mind and in mine 2.

[Anira the Elf]

thanks 4 backing me up
* smiles warmly at beleg!!:)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Anira the Elf
if you've read the sil. u'd know it would be the elves.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D



Oh like how you read it. Eh.LOL Hehehehe.Elves everyone else just has 2 bow.

[Camille]

Hi Beren! I have been reading all the post of this Thread, and I agree with a lot of point stated by Grond and ancalon.
I think the question about who are the real firstborn can be answered if we are talking about the beings of Arda or all the beings at all.
in the first place (Arda) cronologically Dwarves where first but it was not the original plan so and everybody has post enough about it then in pourpose Elves are the first!
ok if you are talking about all the beings the ainur are first "the thought of Eru".
An finally about your question or your argument about if melkor can possible do something to a creature that modifies his own form or spirit or doom, I dont think that can be possible, Why?? because Eru made the Ainur and more the Valar as a rulers, they dont have the power of create anyone, only being corrupted as melkor did, Few days ago I was reading a letter from Tolkien to .. dont remember but your arguments about balrongs can be anserwer with what Tolkine wrote in that letter I dont have it right away but I will look for that and I will post the quote
Ok greetings
pd. Beren which is your first language??

[7doubles]

the great eagles of Thorondor is my belief.

[Gnashar_the_orc]

The answer to this is tricky. By first-born we mean 'awaken' right? Elves were created first but were still 'asleep' but Dwarves had become aware of themselves earlier-they were awake earlier. Then, Iluvatar ordered that they are to go back to sleep and await. I am also positive that I am right.
Balrogs are not for the simple, logical explanation that for them to be 'corrupted forms of creatures' they have to be something in the first place right?! Assuming that they are firstborn is not correct. How can they be corrupted of something that hasn't yet awaken if they are indeed firstborn?! I'm stopping now because my head is about to explode.

[Flame of Utumno]

As far as I understand, the term 'First Born' refers only to the children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) and not anything else - (Valar, Maia, Dwarves were not Children of Iluvatar although they were created by him or in the case or the Dwarves, by a Valar.)

Therefore in this context, the first born were the Elves.

[Hama]

Beren,
I mean no disrespect, but you may want to back up your opinions with actual textual evidence from the writings of either the elder Tolkien or his literary heir. I agree whole-heartedly with Ancalagon on this argument. The dwarves were technically the first to be created, but as they were not created by Eru himself, they do not qualify to be the 'firstborn' as such. That recognition goes to the elves. All races other than that of the Elves and Men are the creations of specific Vala, dwarves-Aule, ents-Yavanna, orcs-Melkor etc. Balrogs are quite definitely Maia, as someone already pointed out. One must also remember that Arien, the maia given the responsibility of carrying the sun across the skies, is actually a maia of fire, who, unlike the Balrogs, was not ensnared by Melkor. Orcs were around even before the birth of men, so I do not see how they could have been created from man (unless you are reading Peter Jackson's version). The Silmarillion clearly states that Orcs were created when elves were captured by Morgoth and "corrupted and enslaved". Tolkien calls it the "vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar." Tom Bombadil is definitely an enigma, although I suggest he is either a Valar or Maiar who has voluntarily chosen obscurity in Middle Earth, and as he was created before Middle Earth with all the other Ainur, he is the "oldest" inhabitant of Middle Earth. He is definitely more powerful than Sauron (his power over the ring). Perhaps he is Middle Earth personified. Has anyone read the Adventures of Tom Bombadil by Tolkien? I have yet to find it in a bookstore let alone read it. If anyone found anything interesting in it, please inform us. Lastly, I find it interesting as to where if anywhere Maiar go when they die. Melian definitely went back to Valinor, but what about Saruman/Sauron/Gothmog etc. I suppose that Maiar were created by Eru with great powers and were given eternal lives, but they could be slain like elves. Which is why Gothmog was killed, and perhaps even Melkor can be, which is why Fingolfin challenged him. He could be hurt, and so he could possibly be slain. Although Tolkien did say that men went to Mandos after death, where do slain elves and maia go? Perhaps this should go to another thread...

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Hama
Beren,
I mean no disrespect, but you may want to back up your opinions with actual textual evidence from the writings of either the elder Tolkien or his literary heir. I agree whole-heartedly with Ancalagon on this argument. The dwarves were technically the first to be created, but as they were not created by Eru himself, they do not qualify to be the 'firstborn' as such. That recognition goes to the elves. All races other than that of the Elves and Men are the creations of specific Vala, dwarves-Aule, ents-Yavanna, orcs-Melkor etc. Balrogs are quite definitely Maia, as someone already pointed out. One must also remember that Arien, the maia given the responsibility of carrying the sun across the skies, is actually a maia of fire, who, unlike the Balrogs, was not ensnared by Melkor. Orcs were around even before the birth of men, so I do not see how they could have been created from man (unless you are reading Peter Jackson's version). The Silmarillion clearly states that Orcs were created when elves were captured by Morgoth and "corrupted and enslaved". Tolkien calls it the "vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar." Tom Bombadil is definitely an enigma, although I suggest he is either a Valar or Maiar who has voluntarily chosen obscurity in Middle Earth, and as he was created before Middle Earth with all the other Ainur, he is the "oldest" inhabitant of Middle Earth. He is definitely more powerful than Sauron (his power over the ring). Perhaps he is Middle Earth personified. Has anyone read the Adventures of Tom Bombadil by Tolkien? I have yet to find it in a bookstore let alone read it. If anyone found anything interesting in it, please inform us. Lastly, I find it interesting as to where if anywhere Maiar go when they die. Melian definitely went back to Valinor, but what about Saruman/Sauron/Gothmog etc. I suppose that Maiar were created by Eru with great powers and were given eternal lives, but they could be slain like elves. Which is why Gothmog was killed, and perhaps even Melkor can be, which is why Fingolfin challenged him. He could be hurt, and so he could possibly be slain. Although Tolkien did say that men went to Mandos after death, where do slain elves and maia go? Perhaps this should go to another thread...



I thought that maia's body form can be slain. But not there spirit but if it gets hurt enough they can't take physical form or communicate with other "alive" beings? Or something like that????

[Grond]

Originally posted by Hama
Beren,
I mean no disrespect, but you may want to back up your opinions with actual textual evidence from the writings of either the elder Tolkien or his literary heir. I agree whole-heartedly with Ancalagon on this argument. The dwarves were technically the first to be created, but as they were not created by Eru himself, they do not qualify to be the 'firstborn' as such. That recognition goes to the elves. All races other than that of the Elves and Men are the creations of specific Vala, dwarves-Aule, ents-Yavanna, orcs-Melkor etc.1) The Dwarves Aule created were not the end product that Dwarves became. Only through an infusion of "free will" by Eru did the Dwarves merit classification as beings of Middle-earth; otherwise, they would have been mere automatons of Aule who went idle the minute his thought left them.
2) Ents were not created by Yavanna. She went in thought to Eru who made Ents as an answer to her prayer.
3) Orcs were distorted men (per JRRT's own statements in Morgoth's Ring - it is all explained there but I will summarize again in the next post) and were not created by Melkor.
The only being capable of creating sentient life on Middle-earth was Eru.

Orcs were around even before the birth of men, so I do not see how they could have been created from man (unless you are reading Peter Jackson's version). The Silmarillion clearly states that Orcs were created when elves were captured by Morgoth and "corrupted and enslaved". Tolkien calls it the "vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar." Read the Sil again. That is not what it says. It indicates the Orcs were made in mockery of Elves and that Elves were indeed enslaved and corrupted but it never says "into Orcs." The full account as to the author's final words on the origin of Orcs is clearly seen in Morgoth's Ring which I will quote next post.

Tom Bombadil is definitely an enigma, although I suggest he is either a Valar or Maiar who has voluntarily chosen obscurity in Middle Earth, and as he was created before Middle Earth with all the other Ainur, he is the "oldest" inhabitant of Middle Earth. He is definitely more powerful than Sauron (his power over the ring). Perhaps he is Middle Earth personified. Has anyone read the Adventures of Tom Bombadil by Tolkien? I have yet to find it in a bookstore let alone read it. If anyone found anything interesting in it, please inform us.If Tom was a Maia/Vala, Tolkien would have told us in the text or in his letters. He clearly states in his letters that Tom is an enigma, a mystery that clearly makes him a creation of Iluvator but does not place him as an Ainur.

Lastly, I find it interesting as to where if anywhere Maiar go when they die. Melian definitely went back to Valinor, but what about Saruman/Sauron/Gothmog etc. I suppose that Maiar were created by Eru with great powers and were given eternal lives, but they could be slain like elves. Which is why Gothmog was killed, and perhaps even Melkor can be, which is why Fingolfin challenged him. He could be hurt, and so he could possibly be slain. Although Tolkien did say that men went to Mandos after death, where do slain elves and maia go? Perhaps this should go to another thread... Man does not go to an identified place in the Halls of Mandos. They go to a place known only by Mandos and Manwe and Eru. That is clearly stated in the Sil. The Elves go to a place of waiting in the Halls of Mandos and per the HoMe have the option of cloaking themselves again in bodily form (aka Glorfindel) or staying a spirit (aka Feanor). Maia and Vala may have their worldy bodies destroyed which weakens them as Eru gave each a finite amount of power. So theoretically one could consume all it's power and dissipate. I don't remember if this is addressed in the letters or not (whistles to Cian) but I would think that if this happened, their essence would return to whence it came. (aka The Mind of Eru). Sorry to disagree with you so much but your post didn't tell the whole story. :)

[Grond]

This is a post from another thread on the topic of Orc origins. The entire text can be found in Morgoth's Ring from which these quotes came.

The following summary of dialogue should clear up much concerning the Orc question. First off, this (according to Christopher Tolkien) is his best guess as to his father's final words on the origins of the orcs. From Morgoth's Ring, Chapter Myth's Transformed,

"...They bred and mutiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed. So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind before the coming of Orome to Cuivienen. "

and

"...the theory (that orcs originate from Man) remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own...he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets...They hated one another and often fought...they had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues...They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."

and

"...was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master whe he returned."

This is much debate and contradiction by the author with himself in this ten page summation by Christopher. But they are all based on passages written by JRRT's own hand. It appears that his final word was that Orcs reproduced like man and were of man stock and were not of Elvish origins.

[Ancalagon]

1) The Dwarves Aule created were not the end product that Dwarves became. Only through an infusion of "free will" by Eru did the Dwarves merit classification as beings of Middle-earth; otherwise, they would have been mere automatons of Aule who went idle the minute his thought left them.

I am not sure if I am interpreting this correctly Grond; are you saying that Dwarves do not qualify as being born of creation when Aule first conceived and created them, because they were not created by Eru directly?

I will not proceed further to debate until I am sure of your actual meaning.

[Grond]

What I'm saying Anc is that the Dwarves made by Aule did not think and wouldn't qualify as "sentient beings". Yes they were alive but mindless, unless directed by Aule. They had no soul and there was no plan for them in the great scheme of things because they were created outside of the Music of Eru when he created all other "sentient creatures". It's very clear in the Sil that if Aule turned away and ceased concentrating on directing the Dwarves actions, they would simply cease to act.

Hence, I contend that they were not truly a living being as we are seeking to define in this thread because they were only given living tissue by Aule and not a mind. :)

[Ancalagon]

I disagree entirely. I refer back to my original stance regarding Dwarves and feel that the arguement relating to them being 'mindless', can be explained clearly.

Dwarves: Aule created these, long before the coming of both Elves and Men. They were not made in mockery of the Firstborn, as Melkor did with Orcs after the coming of the firstborn. Aule, the greatest craftsman, created them in his eagerness to teach his lore and crafts. Though because he was unsure of the mind of Iluvatar and because of the destruction of Melkor, he created a hardy and unyielding race as children. Therefore, he made the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-Earth.

Iluvatar knew of this, and even as Aule began to instruct them in speech that he had devised, spoke to him; ‘Why dost thou attempt a thing which is beyond thy power and thy authority?’ (Sil. Of Aule and Yavanna 49)

However, Aule pleaded his case for his creation, to the point where he was prepared to smite them with a great hammer. Most importantly, IMHO, the Dwarves were afraid, and bowed their heads begging for mercy. Iluvatar took pity on Aule for he understood and knew his humility. But Iluvatar spoke;

First saying; ‘ Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things now have a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.’

Secondly;

‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given it a place therein; but in no other way shall I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so it shall be. But I will not suffer this; that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth.’

This I believe explains that Dwarves were not as robots, but actual living, breathing beings, which knew fear and understood compassion. Iluvatar himself accepts that they had life, and he would not alter their creation in any way; only deny their rising as the first beings on middle-earth.

[Grond]

Darn Anc. I hate to tell you you're wrong.... but you're wrong. Here's a quote you left out from the Sil which proves certain that they were robots until bestowed with true "sentience" by Eru. From the Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 2, Of Aule and Yaranna, "'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'

Then there is the quote you cited from the same chapter, "'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.' Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'" You must have missed it but Eru gave a full description of the pre "sentient" Dwarves and then modified Aule's work when he accepted the offer Aule's offer as it was made. That is shown by the statement in the quote above "these things have now a life of their own."

Also from Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, "But if he (Melkor) had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in imitation or mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets; his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it was to destroy themselves." Again, this says to me that Aule's Dwarves were in no way sentient until Eru said so and he didn't say so until he heard Aule's offer.:)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
Darn Anc. I hate to tell you you're wrong.... but you're wrong. Here's a quote you left out from the Sil which proves certain that they were robots until bestowed with true "sentience" by Eru. From the Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 2, Of Aule and Yaranna, "'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'

Then there is the quote you cited from the same chapter, "'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.' Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'" You must have missed it but Eru gave a full description of the pre "sentient" Dwarves and then modified Aule's work when he accepted the offer Aule's offer as it was made. That is shown by the statement in the quote above "these things have now a life of their own."

Also from Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, "But if he (Melkor) had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in imitation or mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets; his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it was to destroy themselves." Again, this says to me that Aule's Dwarves were in no way sentient until Eru said so and he didn't say so until he heard Aule's offer.:)


I am with you grond that proves the dwarves were useless untill eru gave the his little "kick" along. That is why melkor couldn't make anything since he didn't have the imperishable flame.

[Ancalagon]

If you read back over my original points, I do not deny that Iluvatar, once turning his thought to them had acknowledged their existence, therefore giving them credence as living beings. However, this arguements relates to whom the firstborn are; for this I believe makes them the 'first born', but not, 'The Firstborn'.

I am sorry if I have not been entirely clear in my position regarding this. If Aule made them they were still (indirectly) the creation of Eru as Aule states; 'I offer these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made' and I have also stated in my second point earlier that; ‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given it a place therein; but in no other way shall I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so it shall be.' In addition, I have mis-understood your meaning originally as I presumed you meant that they simply did not have actual life pre-elven awakening.

This relates directly to my arguement that this makes them the First to be born, for as Aule created them, Iluvatar acknowledged them, even if he was displeased.

[Grond]

Ohhhhh!!!! Anc!!!! I didn't know we were arguing first born in that sense. And since sentience doesn't matter, I will nominate Yavanna's first blade of grass, er... wait a minute... maybe it was the first tree... no... um... er... maybe it was that first butterfly. Oh well, you get my drift. :);)

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Grond
Ohhhhh!!!! Anc!!!! I didn't know we were arguing first born in that sense. And since sentience doesn't matter, I will nominate Yavanna's first blade of grass, er... wait a minute... maybe it was the first tree... no... um... er... maybe it was that first butterfly. Oh well, you get my drift. :);)


Yes remember the ents or the tree shephards. They were pretty early 2. Or maybe iluvatar he was there 1st.lol.:D :D :D

[Hama]

So explain how the origins were made into "sentient beings". Was it by the good wishes of Iluvatar? Darn, must get Morgoth and other books. Only have UT and Sil for reference on me.

[Ancalagon]

Hama, strictly speaking you don't really need to invest in the HOME series as most of the questions have their answers sqarely in the Silmarillion.

Reading between the lines is essential in determining the truths within the Sil. HOME may assist in offering more detail, but it must also be remembered that many notes and scribblings within HOME were just that and not Tolkiens final draft.

[Grond]

Hama, of course I was being sarcastic to Ancalagon because we are such "good" friends and forget that others may not realize that not only are we moderators but also buddies. Anc's assertion is right that Dwarves were the "First Born" of the races as is told very clearly in the Silmarillion.

Beleg, Ents come about as a direct result of Aule explaining to Yavanna that his Dwarves and the Firstborn and the other "sentient" races (even orcs and the like) will have dominion over her works. It is only after she consults with Manwe that he searches the mind of Iluvator and lets her know that Ents will take care of her trees but will not awaken until after the Elves.

P. S. to Hama. I would buy Morgoth's Ring and possibly the Peoples of Middle Earth also but not necessarily all the HoMe books. These two give some real insight into JRRT's thinking. It should also be noted that they do only give supportive information and different ideas that the author batted around. :)

[Ancalagon]

Grond. He speaks the truth!

[Hama]

Sorry for seeming so ignorant on the matter... but where exactly does it explain iluvatar's involvement in the creation of Orcs?
PS to Grond: Thanks for the tips. Already have Peoples of ME and Lays of Beleriand, but will look into Morgoth's ring.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Hama
Sorry for seeming so ignorant on the matter... but where exactly does it explain iluvatar's involvement in the creation of Orcs?
PS to Grond: Thanks for the tips. Already have Peoples of ME and Lays of Beleriand, but will look into Morgoth's ring. Orc's were not created, they were made of either Elf-stock or Man-stock or both and were simply perversions of that stock. It is very clear in all of JRRT's works that no one other than Iluvator could create a "sentient" race. Aule created Dwarves that were automatons until given sentience by Eru and all Melkor did was corrupt things to get Orcs, Dragons, Were-wolves, Vampires and the like.

So Eru did not create Orcs, he simply made the root stock from which they were derived.