WWII & and kicking the of Nazi Germany

[Aragorn21]

I just realized there hasn't been a thread on my favorite subject!!

Anyone else here really into WWII???

[greypilgrim]

Hail, Aragorn
I could talk about WW2 until the world ends.
What's the first topic.
Weapons? Politics? You start the debate!

[Aragorn21]

YEAH!!! I found some one (not on gamespy at least)

How 'bout the airwar with Germany? I'm like really knowledgeable on that part.:D

[Merlin]

Same here, especially the airwar, air tactics, and the aircrafts. But also about WWI.

[Aragorn21]

Yeah the airwar is the best!! I ecpecially like the North American P-51 Mustang it was the king of the air by far!!

[Arvedui]

I believe I know a thing or two about that period myself.
BTW, IMO the Spitfire saved the day in the beginning of the war. But there were a lot of great planes in those days. P-51, or the Me 109 or Me 262(?).
So, what is the subject?

[tom_bombadil]

I like ww2 it is really intresting but i am most knowledgable about life in nazi germany

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Arvedui
I believe I know a thing or two about that period myself.
BTW, IMO the Spitfire saved the day in the beginning of the war. But there were a lot of great planes in those days. P-51, or the Me 191 or Me 262(?).
So, what is the subject?

Actually, as far as I have always understood, the majority of the planes used by Fighter Command at the Battle of britain were Hurricanes. Those planes were the ones to break the back of the Luftwaffe, as soon as they stopped bombing airfields. Of course, the Spitfire had the better looks, so the press focused on that one and declared it the Saviour of Britain. Not that it matters that much, but it's nice to know what really happened.

[Aragorn21]

Your mostly right DGoeij, the Hurricane was more numberous in the Battle of Britian. BUT, it wasn't as maneuverable as the Spitfire, so they (the hurricanes) got the bombers, and the Spitfires murdered the fighters. (like the bf-109 and the less-maneuverable bf-110's)

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
Your mostly right DGoeij, the Hurricane was more numberous in the Battle of Britian. BUT, it wasn't as maneuverable as the Spitfire, so they (the hurricanes) got the bombers, and the Spitfires murdered the fighters. (like the bf-109 and the less-maneuverable bf-110's)

Less maneuverable 110? Make that hardly maneuveralbe, in the last stage of the Battle of Britain, they were escorted by 109's just to be on the safe side. They were great attack bombers, but like the Stuka, they preferred air superiority.
And an honest match between a 109 and a spitfire gives the 109 loads of advantages. The spitfire was and is a very difficult plane to fly, and fighting in it was even more difficult. It was certainly faster on a level platform (especially the later versions), but the 109 could climb faster.
The British were lucky enough the 109 didn't have enough fuel to stay (let alone fight) for a long enough time, especially over targets near and in London.

[Merlin]

Originally posted by DGoeij
Actually, as far as I have always understood, the majority of the planes used by Fighter Command at the Battle of britain were Hurricanes. Those planes were the ones to break the back of the Luftwaffe, as soon as they stopped bombing airfields. Of course, the Spitfire had the better looks, so the press focused on that one and declared it the Saviour of Britain. Not that it matters that much, but it's nice to know what really happened.

VERY TRUE, the real hero of the Battle of Britain was the Hurricane. The Spitfire was the sexy airplane at the time, thats why it got so much more publicity.

My favorite planes were in this order:
Bf-109 (you gotta have respect for its pilots who flew it, Hartman #1 :D)
P-51
Spitfire
FW-190

The Spitfire was more maneuverable than the 109 even the early versions, that is a fact. Towards the end of the battle of Britain when the brits had gained some experience, the air war became a turkey shoot. I would go as far as saying the Spitfire was the most maneuverable airplane of the war. That is why the germans used zoom and boom tactics, because they knew they could not outturn many allies fighters. The Spitfire was also just a bit faster than the 109. The 109 had climbing advantage. I would have rather been on a Spit than a 109.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Merlin
I would have rather been on a Spit than a 109.

Agreement there, considering the fact that in a 109, the fuel tank was right behind your back.:D

[Aragorn21]

"the real hero of the Battle of Britain was the Hurricane."
As I said before, the Hurricane couldn't match the 109, it didn't have the abilities of the 109. Yes it was more numerous, and it probably got more kills, but it still couldn't match them. The spitfire could.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
As I said before, the Hurricane couldn't match the 109, it didn't have the abilities of the 109. Yes it was more numerous, and it probably got more kills, but it still couldn't match them. The spitfire could.

If lots of 109's are shot out of the sky by Hurricane's, I'd say they were a match. No doubt in the hands of trained pilot, the Spitfire was a better plane, but there weren't enough to win the war by themselves.
These links provide good and balanced information about the planes used in the BOB.:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/airpower.html
http://www.battleofbritain.net/section-4/page-11.html

[Aragorn21]

the Spitfire was a better plane, but there weren't enough to win the war by themselves.
I couldn't agree with you more!!

[Ciryaher]

Wasn't the prefix for the 109 Me? As in Messerschmidt?

Anyways, my personal area of interest is Erwin Rommel, my personal hero of WWII. He was an amazing commander and used new ways of thinking in order to achieve his many victories. Besides his military record, he was a man of honor and dignity (he wasn't a Nazi and despised the Gestapo, SS, and the Brownshirts).

I'm currently reading the Rommel Papers to learn more about him...he's very interesting and is even funny (his story about driving into an enemy-held town in France is hilarious :D)

[Aragorn21]

Your right he was a very interesting man. And your also right that he did approve of the SS, he was one of the lesser bad Nazi's.

[Ciryaher]

Correction, he didn't like the SS, and he wasn't a Nazi at all. He was never a member of the Nazi party and he spoke out against Hitler's appalling actions when he found out near the end of his life/the war.

[Arvedui]

Well he didn't just speake out against the Nazi's. I suppose everyone knowns that he was forced to commit suicide because of his part in the attempted coup d'etat in July (?) 1944.
Too bad, really, that he was on the loosing side. What a commander he would have been alongside Patton, Eisenhower, Bradley and Monty. Still, the Germans had a number of other clever generals as well.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
Wasn't the prefix for the 109 Me? As in Messerschmidt?


One of the links I provided in my earlier post, have some explanation on that. But basically, the prefix Me was used on later models. Bf was used by the germans for the 109 and the 110 (and some others I forgot). Me was used by every western historic who didn't bother and wanted to avoid confusion I guess.;)

[TheFool]

My parents bought me a box set of "Cassell's Military Paperbacks" for Christmas, I haven't read any yet but they look very interesting. One of them is 'Achtung! Panzer' (what a name) by Heinz Guderian, he was the tank commander whose tactics played a huge part in the 'amazing German victories of 1939-41'; He sounds very similar to Rommel, and I don't think he was a 'Nazi' either.

I was just wondering if anyone has seen a documentary called 'Treasure of the Humboldt Glacier' (aka B29 Frozen in Time)? It's about a salvage team who try to recover a B29 Superfortress that made a forced landing in the Arctic. The plane has been literally parked on a glacier for 50 years but is in great condition because of the cold weather - they plan to fit new engines, propellers tyres etc and want to fly it out!! One of the best documentaries I've ever seen, very highly recommended if you ever come across it. transcript (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2303b29.html)

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by TheFool
My parents bought me a box set of "Cassell's Military Paperbacks" for Christmas, I haven't read any yet but they look very interesting. One of them is 'Achtung! Panzer' (what a name) by Heinz Guderian, he was the tank commander whose tactics played a huge part in the 'amazing German victories of 1939-41'; He sounds very similar to Rommel, and I don't think he was a 'Nazi' either.


I think I heard about that book, but I've no idea if it's any good. I t could be. Mr Guderian was indeed one of the fiercest supporters of the Blitzkrieg concept.
And Wehrmacht commanders during WWII didn't have to be Nazi's to be conducting autrocities, or at least without remorse pass on orders coming from Hitler regarding the treatment of Jews and such. You didn't have to be in the SS to be involved in all the nasty stuff that happened during this war.

[TheFool]

Originally posted by DGoeij
You didn't have to be in the SS to be involved in all the nasty stuff that happened during this war.
Of course - for example, many today would point in the direction of Sir Arthur Harris; and the so-called 'plot to kill Hitler' was not about getting rid of Nazi policy and stopping the war.

however on reflection the last sentence of my previous post was quite poor. I suppose I was trying to 'differentiate' between lower field commanders such as him (and others) from 'political' Nazis such as Heydrich and Himmler. Guderian was twice sacked by Hitler because of 'disagreements', but I don't know the nature of these.

From the editor's introduction to the book:
"Although he was interrogated about war crimes no serious evidence was found against him and he was released without being indicted. He died in 1954."

I think I should leave it at that.

[Arvedui]

If I remember correct, I think Guderian spearheaded the new tactics for use of Tanks, and Combined Arms, which would probably make him the man who invented Blitzkrieg.
He surely is one of the greates military commanders of history.

[Aragorn21]

Correction, he didn't like the SS
sorry 'bout that :rolleyes:




He surely is one of the greates military commanders of history.
Too true!


Hey did you guys know that Hittler came close to building an atomic bomb???

[Arvedui]

Are you sure about this?
I know the Germans did some research on atoms, but as far as I remember, they were thinking about nuclear power, not nuclear weapons.

[Aragorn21]

Yea I saw it on "The Untold Stories of WWII". They had what they call "heavy water" with nuclear power. But a handful of men planned and blewup the boat carrying the heavy water, and BBOOOMM no more bomb materiel.

[Aragorn21]

Anyway this site doesn't seem to be prospering so lets talk again about the airwar.

[Hirila]

Don't be afraid a girl could interrupt your discussions, but it's always astounding how much fun boys have when discussing aircrafts and such things. :D
I like this.

[Aragorn21]

lol, Well how 'bout we start wiht the P-51!! THE KING OF ALL!!!

[Samweis]

Here is a further question, what battle marks for you the turning point of WWII?

For me it is STALINGRAD 1943.

[DGoeij]

Considering the Eastern Front, that would definately be Stalingrad (most of the fighting was in the last months of 1942 actually, the last German pockets surrendered in the first weeks of February 1943) I just finished a book by Anthony Beevor, named Stalingrad, very informative and superbly written.

How about the Battle of Britain (1941), Midway and Guadalcanal (1942)? All of them battles that could have been won by both sides, hung in the balance for some time and marked the turning points for the ceaseless victories of the Axis forces.

EDIT: The authors name's Beevor, not Breevor. Consider is a typo.;)

[Aragorn21]

For the war against Germany it's definately Operation Overlord, (June 6, 1944 if you want to know) that was probably the biggest most well-planned battle of the war.

For the war against Japan I think it was the battle of Midway, the japs lost ssoo many aircraft carriers there it was wonderful!!!

[Arvedui]

I'm a bit surpised that El-Alamein is not mentioned. Or rather, the desert campaign as a whole. Mussolini's stupid adventure into Africa forced Hitler to waste some of his best troops on the wrong side of the Mediteranean Sea.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
For the war against Germany it's definately Operation Overlord, (June 6, 1944 if you want to know) that was probably the biggest most well-planned battle of the war.

It was a big operation alright, and somewhat of a gamble, but Nazi-Germany was already fighting a lost war. It sure helped that it started a land-war on two fronts, but it wasn't as if the Germans could have stopped the Sovjets by then. The mere threat of the invasion in the west was binding sufficient German forces. I wonder if a failure of Overlord would have changed the outcome of the war, apart from the amount of Europe that would have been occupied by the Sovjet-Union.

El Alamein is a good point, but it was, as Arvedui said, one battle in the entire desert campaign that became a disaster for the german war-effort.
And Mussolini wasn't that stupid, he had the bigger army in North Africa, the British just didn't cooporate.:D

[TheFool]

I just stumbled across this plane (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/profile/d335hist.htm) the Dornier Do335 - I've never come across this before. Something I find fascinating about this type of thing is that even though the Germans were 'beaten', in the latter stages of the war they were still producing amazing technology - the V2 rocket which lead to the Apollo space program; their assault rifle which was the 'prototype' for the Kalashnikov; the Me262....

So... could it shoot down a P51? :p :confused:

And another thing - the top photo, the guy is standing under the plane; I thought, 'why is the undercarriage so tall?'... then I looked at the back end and thought, ah-HA! How hard would it be to LAND this plane!!

TF.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by DGoeij
It was a big operation alright, and somewhat of a gamble, but Nazi-Germany was already fighting a lost war. It sure helped that it started a land-war on two fronts, but it wasn't as if the Germans could have stopped the Sovjets by then. The mere threat of the invasion in the west was binding sufficient German forces. I wonder if a failure of Overlord would have changed the outcome of the war, apart from the amount of Europe that would have been occupied by the Sovjet-Union.

El Alamein is a good point, but it was, as Arvedui said, one battle in the entire desert campaign that became a disaster for the german war-effort.
And Mussolini wasn't that stupid, he had the bigger army in North Africa, the British just didn't cooporate.:D

I agree with DGoeij, Overlord was a large operation and a terrible battle, but the Third Reich was already fighting a lost war.

Before Stalingrad the Third Reich was really sure to win, but the lost battle in city with the name of Hitlers rival was a horrible shock for the Third Reich.

STALINGRAD makes the Germans still shiver, because of the terrible fighting, the suffering of the inhabitants and the ca 90,000 POW who were brought to Siberia, where many of them died under terrible circumstances.

[Aragorn21]

Almost the whole preceeding war for America and UK was geared at Overlord (have you ever read the book "Overlord and the Invasion of Nazi Germany"? REALLY good book.

So... could it shoot down a P51? Yes by all means it could, but it was developed so late that it wasn't in skilled hands and could still be matched by the more experienced P-51 pilots.

And yeah I agree with you, the Germans came out with some POWERFUL stuff later in the war.

[Ciryaher]

I've been reading The Rommel Papers and I found that Rommel himself had ideas for how to halt the Russian advance on Germany.

He said that instead of producing tanks and high-accuracy anti-tank guns, Germany should focus on producing large quantities of anti-tank guns that could be used in large numbers to slow and eventually halt the Russian advance.

Also, had the Germans pursued the French and therefore take Gibraltar and then the Suez Canal, they would have had the Mediterannean safely in their holding. They could have gotten resources from Africa and then pushed into the Middle East.

Germany had *many* chances to win the War, but unfortunately for them and fortunately for us, Hitler was an egomaniac and did not often listen to the wisdom of some of his less-influential commanders.

It is also a pity that the assination attempt on Hitler was a failure...Rommel would have been put in command of Germany, and since he easily saw that defeat was near, he would have saved the German people much pain and called for a cessation of the war.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
Almost the whole preceeding war for America and UK was geared at Overlord (have you ever read the book "Overlord and the Invasion of Nazi Germany"? REALLY good book.

Dear Aragorn21,

I haven´t read this book yet.

For me (as a German) the operation OVERLORD, was the landing in France to build up a western front, which was of course very important for the fall of the Third Reich and for the freedom of West-Europe and the Western part of Central-Europe in the Cold War.

The lost battle in STALINGRAD was a "writing on the wall" for the Germans, which meant "The War Is Lost!"

To get a feeling what happened in STALINGRAD, here is a famous expample christmas 1942:

The Stalingrad Madonna (http://www.feldgrau.com/articles.php?ID=74)

[Samweis]

The original drawing is in the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Gedächtnis-Kirche in Berlin. A copy is in the cathedral of Coventry and another copy is in a church in Wolgograd (Stalingrad).

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Ciryaher
It is also a pity that the assination attempt on Hitler was a failure...Rommel would have been put in command of Germany, and since he easily saw that defeat was near, he would have saved the German people much pain and called for a cessation of the war.

The first assination attempt was at 8th November 1939 by a single man, Georg Elser. Hitler wanted to speak in Munich in the Bürgerbräukeller in honour of the failed coup in 1923. Normally the speeches of Hitler took hours, but on this day the speech was only 60 min long. Hitler left the Bürgerbräuhaus to return to Berlin and ten minutes later the bomb of Georg Elser exploded. 8 people were killed the ceiling destroyed the lectern. Eisler was arrested, when he tried to escape to Switzerland.

At the 9th April 1945 Georg Elser was hang up at a butcher hook in KZ Dachau by the SS.

[Arvedui]

And Mussolini wasn't that stupid, he had the bigger army in North Africa, the British just didn't cooporate.
You know, Mussolini's actions caused Hitler to make some of his worst mistakes during WWII, just to show that they took their allies seriously:
First of all, Hitler came to Mussolini's aid in Africa, which resulted in tying up numerous forces in a struggle that in the end would have meant little.
Second, Hitler cam to Mussolini's aid in the Balkans. From the beginning, the Germans didn't have any desire to go into that mountainous part of Europe, since it would be close to impossible to keep some sort of order there. But the Italians saw a chance to gain an easy victory, so they attacked Albania, and as usuall with Italian soldiers at the time, got their butt kicked. So Hitler went to the rescue, and tied up even more of his well-trained army.

IMO, these were two of Hitler's four major mistakes (appart from starting the war), that led to the demise of the Thousand-Year-reich.

What were the other two?

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Arvedui
What were the other two?

I was just kidding about Mussolini, that's why I added the :D.

Only four mistakes? What about the ill-treatment of Soviet-civillians, who were at first very happy to have been liberated from the Stalinist opression? The desicion to start bombing London and totally postpone any invasion of Great Britain? Declaring war on the USA, after which the entire nation went like: "The little kraut *** said what?"? Hesitating to take Moscow until it was too late? Putting the panzer-divisions in France under his personal command and then being asleep during the first hours of Overlord? His reluctance to put the Kriegmarines battleships to full use?
Being born?:p

Samweis, I've never heard of this attempt in 1939, thanks. Are you german, considering the name Samweis.:) And thank you very much for posting the Madonna, I've read about it in the book I mentioned and wondered what it would look like.

[Arvedui]

I saw the :D and got your kidding, but it was a very good lead into my points.

When I said mistakes, I meant from a strategic point of view. Those mistakes that caused Hitler to loose the war (thank God). And you got at least one of mine on your list: Declearing war on USA.
The last big mistake he did was in my opinion to attack the Soviet Union.

[Aragorn21]

Only four mistakes? What about the ill-treatment of Soviet-civillians, who were at first very happy to have been liberated from the Stalinist opression? The desicion to start bombing London and totally postpone any invasion of Great Britain? Declaring war on the USA, after which the entire nation went like: "The little kraut *** said what?"? Hesitating to take Moscow until it was too late? Putting the panzer-divisions in France under his personal command and then being asleep during the first hours of Overlord? His reluctance to put the Kriegmarines battleships to full use? Yup, wow, thats a lot of mistakes for one person. If hitler wasn't so hotheaded he could have done a whole lot better if not win.

Declaring war on the USA If he haden't declaired war on us we would probably declare war on him to help our UK allies. And with all the attacks on our transport ships heading to UK it would have happened sooner or later.

[Arvedui]

That was a real headace to Roosevelt, because the US opinion were against entering the war in Europe. they remembered only too well that a lot of soldiers did not return alive from the first war.
That Hitler declared war on US, gave roosevelt an easy way out. He couldn't just say: "Nope, we're not coming."

[Samweis]

Originally posted by DGoeij
Samweis, I've never heard of this attempt in 1939, thanks. Are you german, considering the name Samweis.:) And thank you very much for posting the Madonna, I've read about it in the book I mentioned and wondered what it would look like.

Dear DGoeij,

yes, I´m.

I live in HAMBURG!

If you are interest in the attempt in 1939. Sorry in my previous posts are misspellings: not George Eisler, but Georg Elser. I have already edited it.

Here are two links about the man, who had the courage to made an assasination attempt only 2 month after the start of WWII.


Georg Elser web-site in German (http://www.georg-elser.de)

Georg Elser web-site in English (http://www.uni-konstanz.de/FuF/Philo/LitWiss/MedienWiss/Forsch/Telaviv/elser.html)

[Aragorn21]

That was a real headace to Roosevelt, because the US opinion were against entering the war in Europe. they remembered only too well that a lot of soldiers did not return alive from the first war. But like I said after we lost 50+ ships no doubt we would have entered the war. And don't forget Japan after they attacked us we declaired war on both the axis powers.


Guys I'm going away for a few days PLEASE don't continue talking (to much) or you'll be lacking my wisdom :D

[Arvedui]

And don't forget Japan after they attacked us we declaired war on both the axis powers.
Sorry, but you did not. Hitler beat you to it, as I stated.
That you would have eventually entered the war is, I think, obvious as time went by. But that would have been at a later date, as far as Europe is concerned. What the consequences of that would have been, is luckily something that we can just speculate about. Perhaps I would have been speaking Russian right now....

[Aragorn21]

Sorry, but you did not. Hitler beat you to it, as I stated. Hitler declaired war on us because we declaired war on Japan
Perhaps I would have been speaking Russian right now.... No not at all, I agree with you.

[Rogue666666]

Hitler would have declared war on the U.S anyway, it was only a matter of time. In fact, we complain about Hitler attacking our supply ships, but if we were at war with somebody, and some other nation was sending them MASSIVE amounts of supplies, including military equipment, we would have been pretty ticked too.

Of course, this has hapened in the case of Korea and Vietnam, but that is another discussion.

Now here is something interesting about the fighter planes of WW2. Did you know that it was not the Germans but the british who first released a jet fighter into active service? Yes, the Germans had been working on the Me262 for a long time, but the Britsih Meteor actually entered war before the german jet fighter.

Unfortunately the two jet fighters never met in a single dogfight, so we really can't tell who would have been the victor. :)

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Rogue666666
Now here is something interesting about the fighter planes of WW2. Did you know that it was not the Germans but the british who first released a jet fighter into active service? Yes, the Germans had been working on the Me262 for a long time, but the Britsih Meteor actually entered war before the german jet fighter.

Unfortunately the two jet fighters never met in a single dogfight, so we really can't tell who would have been the victor. :)

Really? I never knew that. I thought the Meteor entered service somewhere in March 1945. Do you know about any specific date for both planes?

I did know that the Me262 had been spotted at the end of the war, attacking the B-17's from the 8th Air Force, so it did saw action during WWII. Does anyone know if the Meteor ever flew combat missions?

[TheFool]

found this:

"Great Britain emerged from World War II with a decided head start in jet technology, the only Allied power to have had a jet fighter operational in squadron strength before the German surrender on May 8, 1945. This was the Gloucester Meteor, which first flew on March 5, 1943. On July 21, 1944, the first two production Meteors arrived at Culmhead and formed the nucleus of No. 616 Squadron, Royal Air Force (RAF). Appropriately, the Meteor's first duty was to defend Britain from attacks by German V-1 pulse jet-powered guided bombs, of which they destroyed 13 by the end of the war. Meteor IIIs of No. 616 Squadron were committed to Continental Europe in the last months of the conflict, but they never got the opportunity to meet the Me-262A in battle. "
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=cw_f2_1

They must have been one of the few planes able to keep pace with a V1.

[Rogue666666]

Ya, I think I've read that somewhere.

I DO remember reading about a Meteor tipping the wing of a V1 using its own wing. But I thought that all later production V1's, as surely this would have been, were produced with mines lodged in the tips of the wings, so as to prevent the very manuever that the Meteor jet supposedly pulled off.

Am I missing something? :confused:

[DGoeij]

This 'tipping' if V1 rockets was almost a standard procedure once it proved succesfull. It was invented by fighter pilots (flying modified Spitfires and Hurricanes), whom at first were shooting those rockets down. The problem was, the V1's exploded heavily, quite frequently damaging the plane shooting it. Tipping wasn't without danger either, , but at least you weren't bombarded with schrapnel.;)

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/WWII/v1/v1_info/vi_info.htm

This site has all the information about the V1. The germans were launching them in great numbers (almost 30,000!) from June 1944 onward. By the time the Meteor entered service, I don't think the germans had enough resources to maintain a launch pattern like that. That might explain the low score on V1's as quoted by theFool.

Here's a site about the Me262, which seems to have made it's first kill on the 25th of July, 1944. Well before the Meteor entered service. Thank someone Hitler ordered them to be built as bombers instead of fighters.

http://www.strandlab.com/me262

[greypilgrim]

Some cool sites! I had not considered the V1 or the V2 rockets, (well maybe the V2) to be very useful to Hitler, and very far-fetched, IMO. The research should have gone into planes more, Where rocket technology was fast emerging everywhere. Hitler had only a mind of killing, that was probably his ruin.

Anyone want to talk about the strategies of both sides during the entire war? I mean like subterfuge, counter-intelligence, etc. like these facts:

Hitlers personal doctor was Phillip Morrel, he was owner of pharmacutical company in a neutral country. He was financed secretly by Allied money. Many of the 20 or more pills that Hitler was taking everyday near the end of the war were laced with many poisons, making him sick and insane, eventually Morrel was found out, and killed, I think. It's in a book called WW2 Super Facts, which I can't find right now.
or this topic:
The "Body" that washed ashore in German territory, which held documents of "fake" plans for the invasion in Europe, which were deemed original by German intelligence, and used in their planning of the defense against it.(the invasion)
or:
The implementing of a "fake army" in the UK, which was "believed" by the Germans to be under Patton, and Patton was mad about having a "ghost" army at his command, when he wanted to be in Europe kicking Nazi Germany!

there's alot to discuss on this thread, it could go on forever!:eek:

[Hirila]

Hitlers personal doctor was Phillip Morrel, he was owner of pharmacutical company in a neutral country. He was financed secretly by Allied money. Many of the 20 or more pills that Hitler was taking everyday near the end of the war were laced with many poisons, making him sick and insane, eventually Morrel was found out, and killed, I think.
Don't tell me you really believe this ****! Good God. I would say there's as much truth in it as in any urban legend.
I do also doubt the theory that Napoleon was slowly killed by arsenic in his food. And the French don't let scientists examine his body.

Guys: please go on with your technical talk. It's funny. I don't understand a word.

[greypilgrim]

Technical stuff....dudes, You don't think this happened? You don't believe there are documents?

Theodor Morell,(thats his name) the doctor in question, WAS Hitler's personal doctor, look it up.

Anyways, a guy named Allen W. Dulles, a counter-intelligence guy for America, got connected with Morell in Switzerland through Unity Mitford. Mitford, a spy for English officals, was there getting medical treatment from Morell.
She helped him fund a pharmecutical firm to do research on drugs in Switzerland, unknown to the Furher.
Strychnine and atropine and other stuff was slowly increased in potency inside the pills made there.
Hitler was on over 28 different medications until the end, and this is proven. Morell was his only doctor, within the Reich, close to him every day, and alot of people didn't trust him.
There are alot of different quotes from Traudl Jundge and Frau
Brown that accuse him treating Hitler like a "guinea pig" and of nobody else in the Reich trusting him.
I think this could be true.



As far as the other "urban legends" ~whatever the hell that means~ and **** flys, There is no way that Hirala can dispute the other things that I want to talk about!

Anybody else? I don't want to talk tech, maybe I'll check back in.....

[greypilgrim]

And Morell was dismissed in 1944 by Hitler personally, not found out and killed. He lived until after the war, then died of some disease.

[Aragorn21]

And Morell was dismissed in 1944 by Hitler personally, not found out and killed. He lived until after the war, then died of some disease. I didn't know about this!!

[Aragorn21]

You know that allied continually bombing Germany played one MAJOR roll in the Nazi downfall. If we hadn't cept bombing them the war would have taken a much different course.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
You know that allied continually bombing Germany played one MAJOR roll in the Nazi downfall. If we hadn't cept bombing them the war would have taken a much different course.

Sorry Aragorn21, according of your statement and your diction I got the impression, that you glorify the bombing.

Don´t get me wrong, I can understand, why the Allies bombed the Third Reich, but a glorification is in my point of view inappropiate.

[Arvedui]

I suppose one could ask the people in Dresden that question...
But don't forget that several cities in the UK experienced the same thing, so it would be fair to say that it was the Germans who started the bombing-of-civilians business.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Arvedui
I suppose one could ask the people in Dresden that question...
But don't forget that several cities in the UK experienced the same thing, so it would be fair to say that it was the Germans who started the bombing-of-civilians business.


Like I said in my previous post I can understand, why the Allies bombed the Third Reich.

And you are right the Germans started to bomb civilians, but you will not find anyone in Germany, who is proud of that.

[Aragorn21]

Don´t get me wrong, I can understand, why the Allies bombed the Third Reich, but a glorification is in my point of view inappropiate. Are you kidding?? There was NO glory whatsoever!! We bombed way to many innocent people, there was no excuse. Glory? NO, more like gory.(not meant in a funny way)

But of course the Nazi's had no conscience so they didn't really care.

[DGoeij]

As far as I have always understood, the bombing raids against Nazi Germany weren't all that effective in terms of destroying production sites. Lack of accuracy, the strength of industrial buildings and the fact that they didn'catch fire easily prevented a major downfall in the arms production. The economic war was won as soon as the USA entered the war. No way the axis powers could compete with the amounts produced/manufactured there.
But the effect the raids had on the german Luftwaffe and other air-defences were far more serious. Imagine the amount of guns and airplanes, let alone the personnel, that had to be kept away from the frontlines and to be used as defence against the Allied bombers. If I remember correctly, nearly half of the german fighter force had been shot down by gunners aboard Allied bombers, especially during the daytime raids by the US 8th Air Force.
Later on the Allied high command decided to start bombing cities, to try and break the german morale. It didn't do much to that effect, but killed thousands of people. Crowded residential areas, mostly build by wood, burned a lot better. On the Allied side, nobody of course complained much, remembering Warschau, Coventry and for the dutch, Rotterdam.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
Are you kidding?? There was NO glory whatsoever!! We bombed way to many innocent people, there was no excuse. Glory? NO, more like gory.(not meant in a funny way)

But of course the Nazi's had no conscience so they didn't really care.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post! Maybe I was a little bit thin-skinned, because today is the anniversary of DRESDEN.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by DGoeij
As far as I have always understood, the bombing raids against Nazi Germany weren't all that effective in terms of destroying production sites. Lack of accuracy, the strength of industrial buildings and the fact that they didn'catch fire easily prevented a major downfall in the arms production. The economic war was won as soon as the USA entered the war. No way the axis powers could compete with the amounts produced/manufactured there.
But the effect the raids had on the german Luftwaffe and other air-defences were far more serious. Imagine the amount of guns and airplanes, let alone the personnel, that had to be kept away from the frontlines and to be used as defence against the Allied bombers. If I remember correctly, nearly half of the german fighter force had been shot down by gunners aboard Allied bombers, especially during the daytime raids by the US 8th Air Force.
Later on the Allied high command decided to start bombing cities, to try and break the german morale. It didn't do much to that effect, but killed thousands of people. Crowded residential areas, mostly build by wood, burned a lot better. On the Allied side, nobody of course complained much, remembering Warschau, Coventry and for the dutch, Rotterdam.

I complain the terrible air-raids of Warschau, Rotterdam and Coventry.

When I was 10 I read a book about WW II from Raymond Cartier, which mould me much.

Especially a picture of a small Russian boy, who was crying beside his dead mother. The black dispair in his face, let me recognised that the most terrible crime of the Third Reich was the unaccountable inhuman "handling" of lifes.

[Aragorn21]

the most terrible crime of the Third Reich was the unaccountable inhuman "handling" of lifes. To true. It's the saddest thing. Expecially with the jews, they did nothing and they just were slaughtered by the !millions!

And then there are so many stories of how God helped many people escape there was thousands that escaped! And now after so many years of hurt their ready to forgive those who killed thier family, it's unbelievable!

[Samweis]

Aragorn,

I think our former president Richard von Weizsäcker "outline" the crimes quite good (if this is possible at all) in a speech in front of the German Bundestag at the 5th of May 1985. In which he said following:

Wir gedenken heute in Trauer aller Toten des Krieges und der Gewaltherrschaft.

Today we commemorate in sadness all dead of the war and the tyranny.

Wir gedenken insbesondere der sechs Millionen Juden, die in deutschen Konzentrationslagern ermordet wurden.

We remember especially the six million Jews who were killed in German concentration camps.

Wir gedenken aller Völker, die im Krieg gelitten haben, vor allem der unsäglich vielen Bürger der Sowjetunion und der Polen, die ihr Leben verloren haben.

We remember all of the peoples who suffered in the war, especially the unspeakably many citizens of the Soviet Union and the Poles who lost their lives.

Als Deutsche gedenken wir in Trauer der eigenen Landsleute, die als Soldaten, bei den Fliegerangriffen in der Heimat, in Gefangenschaft und bei der Vertreibung ums Leben gekommen sind.

As Germans we remember in sadness our own countryfolk who lost their lives as soldiers, in the air raids at home, in captivity, and during the expulsion.

Wir gedenken der ermordeten Sinti und Roma, der getöteten Homosexuellen, der umgebrachten Geisteskranken, der Menschen, die um ihrer religiösen oder politischen Überzeugung willen sterben mußten.

We remember the Sinti and Romany Gypsies, the homosexuals and the mentally ill who were killed, as well as the people who had to die for their religious or political beliefs.

Wir gedenken der erschossenen Geiseln. Wir denken an die Opfer des Widerstandes in allen von uns besetzten Staaten.

We commemorate the hostages who were executed. We recall the victims of the resistance movements in all the countries occupied by us.

Als Deutsche ehren wir das Andenken der Opfer des deutschen Widerstandes, des bürgerlichen, des militärischen und glaubensbegründeten, des Widerstandes in der Arbeiterschaft und bei Gewerkschaften, des Widerstandes der Kommunisten.

As Germans, we pay homage to the victims in the German resistance-among the public, the military, the churches, the workers and trade unions, and the Communists.

Wir gedenken derer, die nicht aktiv Widerstand leisteten, aber eher den Tod hinnahmen, als ihr Gewissen zu beugen.

We commemorate those who did not actively resist, but preferred to die instead of violating their consciences.

[Aragorn21]

I think our former president Richard von Weizsäcker "outline" the crimes quite good (if this is possible at all) Your totally right there mate.

How 'bout the war with Japan for a little

[greypilgrim]

The Japanese soldiers were bad, bad guys. Their leaders saw no end to the expansion of their empire, and they acted like it. They took Chinese POW's and conducted experiments on them (with grenades and chemical/biological weapons.) They cared nothing for life, even their own lives, as evidenced by the millions of Chinese people killed for no reason in their war against them.

But, the Japanese did have good strategy. The attack on Pearl Harbor (at first) was perfectly executed, with practically no losses. Even though their artillery being used on land was old (1900's) and their rifles out of date (some from WW1), they still managed to take over much of Asia, into India, and all over the Pacific. I don't know much about the fighting against Russia then, though it did happen in N. Manchuria, Soviet far east, and Yakut S.S.R.
Has anyone here played the board game Axis and Allies?

What were the Japanese thinking when they attacked us? (America) They had to know they didn't have a prayer against us.

A German submarine containing documents and information of nuclear study was found on it's way to Japan, sometime near the end of the war.

America built a road all the way up to Alaska, to defend against an invasion there. One small force did come, I think, but that was it.

The Japs sent air-balloons into the jet-stream over the Pacific Ocean, filled with explosives. Some of these landed on American soil, the only "bombs" to hit our mainland in the war.

I thought this was about the kicking of Nazi Germany?
Anyways, the battle I think changed the course of the war (for Germany) was Stalingrad. A whole entire German army was surrounded there!
But there was also the fight upon the beaches against the allied invasion! Rommel wanted to send many tanks (divisions) right into the battle there, and they could have killed us right on the beach! Hitler ordered them back.
Hitler was a political genius, but a military retard.:rolleyes:
Nobody cares about counter-intelligence?

The round-the-clock bombings by U.K. and America were very destructive to the German war machine. Too bad their tank production actually didn't decline much because of them! The allied bombs were dropped with precision, for the times. They used some view-finder or something, while the Gemans used lasers or something, to mark their targets (beams of light)

So much happened in WW2....What do we talk about next?

[Aragorn21]

:D well...first take a deep breath!!

How 'bout starting with the battle of Stalingrad? I like know nothing about that.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
:D well...first take a deep breath!!

How 'bout starting with the battle of Stalingrad? I like know nothing about that.

Well, you seem to know it's a city in Russia where one of the major and desicive battles in WWII was fought. (if you wish to look it up on a map, try 'Volgograd' instead):)

I can reccomend Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad if you wish to know it all. Or ask a more specific question which might be easier to answer.

Or these links might give you some of the information you are looking for:
http://www.stalingrad.com.ru/history/history.htm
http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/classroom/gcse/staling.htm

[Samweis]

Originally posted by greypilgrim
Hitler was a political genius,....

I don´t think that he was really a politician, he was more a tactician!

He really knows, how he can manipulate people and how he can use circumstances for his benefit.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
:D well...first take a deep breath!!

How 'bout starting with the battle of Stalingrad? I like know nothing about that.

If you are interested in movies, you should see "STALINGRAD" with Dominique Horwitz by Joseph Vilsmaier. You are able to find it at amazon (DVD).

[Samweis]

Originally posted by DGoeij
Or these links might give you some of the information you are looking for:
http://www.stalingrad.com.ru/history/history.htm


Very good link, DGoeij,

by the way, DGoeiji, when I saw ALFRED J. KWAK with my nephew, I was very positively surprised, how Herman van Veen discribed suitable for children the career of Hitler with the character of the crow DOLF (KRAH in the German Version).

[greypilgrim]

Anyone ever watch Olympiad, or Triumph of the Will? they were ordered by Hitler to be the driving world-wide propaganda effort by Reifenstahl, a female movie-producer.
I have never seen these movies, because the libraries in my area don't have them, and nowhere stores have them. Olympiad was made before the Olympics came to Germany, (1936?) about Olympic gaming. And it depicted the Third Reich's military in a very powerful way to the world , they bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Triumph of the Will was something hitler wrote, about germany, made into a movie (by Reifenstahl, I think)

Anyways, Hitler was a tactician and a politician, and I don't admire the man, just am amazed that what he accomplished was basically a scam from the beginning, politically speaking. He was an idiot I think, brash and evil. I even heard he drank blood.

I don't have links, but these books:
The Bormann Letters, by Martin Bormann
Mein Kampf, Hitler
Inside the Third Reich, Albert Speer
Crusade in Europe, Dwight Eisenhower

...are good reading for all of these topics, basically. I only own
Crusade in Europe, but have glanced at the others. Aragorn should look for these in his local library. Probably won't find Mein Kampf, though!

[Gloer]

Can it be found in amazon?

They have it, but no knew publications:

http://s1.amazon.co.uk/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02Y2374434Y3929314/qid=1045542167/ref=sr_aps_zshops_1_1/026-1483013-9785216

Original NSDAP publication in German 1941 for £283.50

well at least internet has it digitally in English:

Mein Kampf copy right free:

If required you can PM Gloer for this link. The ownership of The Tolkien Forum is not responsible for the content of the site, additional literature or sentiment contained therein.

[Samweis]

Mein Kampf is it forbidden to print or to sell in Germany today!

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Samweis
Very good link, DGoeij,

by the way, DGoeiji, when I saw ALFRED J. KWAK with my nephew, I was very positively surprised, how Herman van Veen discribed suitable for children the career of Hitler with the character of the crow DOLF (KRAH in the German Version).

Great piece of work that serie. It's an entertaining cartoon serie, but is able to bring problems from the ' big world' into a child's perspective. Impressively done IMHO and the 'Dictator Dolf' episodes are great, but other parts are at least that good.

IIRC, Mein Kampf is still available in the Netherlands, but I remember some fuss over it a couple of years ago. I will have to get back to you on that.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Samweis
I don´t think that he was really a politician, he was more a tactician!

He really knows, how he can manipulate people and how he can use circumstances for his benefit. I think this must be a language thing. Your description (my emphasis added) is the perfect English definition of a politician... aka knowing how to move people to your political direction by means of personal persuasion.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Grond
I think this must be a language thing. Your description (my emphasis added) is the perfect English definition of a politician... aka knowing how to move people to your political direction by means of personal persuasion.

Dear Grond,

I don´t think this is a language thing, but a thing of morale.

A politician shouldn´t have his own benefit in mind, but the benefit of the country and he shouldn´t manipulate people.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by DGoeij
Great piece of work that serie. It's an entertaining cartoon serie, but is able to bring problems from the ' big world' into a child's perspective. Impressively done IMHO and the 'Dictator Dolf' episodes are great, but other parts are at least that good.


Yes, I agree Alfred J. Kwak is a masterpiece - and I still like watching it.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Samweis
Dear Grond,

I don´t think this is a language thing, but a thing of morale.

A politician shouldn´t have his own benefit in mind, but the benefit of the country and he shouldn´t manipulate people. You've used a key word here... shouldn't. There are few politicians in any country who don't have their own benefit or the benefits of the few who helped them get elected in mind.

You're speaking of an ideal politician and not a "real" one.

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Grond
You've used a key word here... shouldn't. There are few politicians in any country who don't have their own benefit or the benefits of the few who helped them get elected in mind.

You're speaking of an ideal politician and not a "real" one.

Yes - and I would like to draw a line between Adolf Hitler and "real" politicians of today!

So I used another phrase than politician!

[Grond]

Originally posted by Samweis
Yes - and I would like to draw a line between Adolf Hitler and "real" politicians of today!

So I used another phrase than politician! But Samweis, Hitler was in every way, shape and form the consumate politician. He told everyone exactly what they wanted to hear. He catered to their strengths and weaknesses and then led them in a direction that he sensed they wanted to go. German Nationalism was as big a part of the problem as Hitler in the beginning. As the war progressed, most Germans realized that they had been duped but were too far into it to bow out without putting up a fight.

Don't get me wrong, I blame Hitler for leading the Germans astray... but at that time in history, Germany was begging for someone to give them back their national pride that they had lost after the humiliating defeat of the Kasier in the First World War.

[Aragorn21]

Don't get me wrong, I blame Hitler for leading the Germans astray... Don't get me wrong either but it seems your praising the guy! What are you trying to get at?

[DGoeij]

Until he became Chancellor, I think Hitler was working like a true politician (apart from the SA-gangs bullying his opponents), after that he became the ultimate despot and even then he was able to wrap the West around his finger.
If he hadn't been so stupid/sick and had not started off his disgusting racial policies, he might have been one of Europe's famous conquerers. Instead of the personification of evil as he's (correctly IMHO) looked upon today.

And I think Grond is rightly trying to point out Hitler wasn't the only factor which led Germany into WWII.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
Don't get me wrong either but it seems your praising the guy! What are you trying to get at? Hitler is evil! Hitler was a horrible monster but... Hitler had to have a willing audience to accomodate his rise to power. Hitler was the catalyst... the German people were the fuel that kept the fire burning. When they realized that the catalyst was out of control, they were unable to douse the fire that had begun.

Hitler was the great evil... but he didn't kill 6,000,000 Jews, Gypsies and other minorities and mentally retarded persons by himself. There were thousands of people who were willing to follow his doctrine of death right up to the end... and many of them were not German.

[greypilgrim]

Grond is right.

Hitler gave the demoralized Germans who had no national pride a vision, and then talked them into following him there. But, he was totally lying to their faces. Except for his inner circle.

Hitler became chancellor after he published Mein Kampf, which he wrote in jail. Hello? Everything Hitler did from his 20's onward was geared towards the rise of Germany.
He lied, killed, used politics, propoganda, and gangsterism against his "beloved countrymen" of Germany, all in his own rise to power, with his own hidden agenda--world domination and his "Master Race". He had much financial backing also.
Then he made France sign their surrender in the same train-car that France made Germany sign theirs in at the end of WW1!

He was a politicians politician!
If you don't know what you are taking about, don't debate something. OK? Grond doesn't like Hitler.

Anyways.....
OK, WW2 Fact people, what do you want to discuss? Hitler is getting boring, I listed my interests about Germany and Japan/Pacific war, and will talk about anything else but Hitler. Let's not start squibbling over peoples opinions about one person, even Hitler. Jeez.....Let's talk about anything else!:rolleyes:

[Samweis]

Originally posted by DGoeij
And I think Grond is rightly trying to point out Hitler wasn't the only factor which led Germany into WWII.

Of course Hitler wasn´t the only factor which led Germany into WW II.

For example many Germans didn´t agree the Peace Treaty for WWI of Versailles - and Hitler used this fact for his benefit.

[Aragorn21]

If you don't know what you are taking about, don't debate something. OK? Grond doesn't like Hitler. LOL dude! I know, NOBODY in their right mind likes Hitler, I just wanted to know what he was saying. OK??

Anyway yea it's time to talk about new things.

The Me 262, if it hadn't come so late what do you think would have happened then? I mean i would totally have change the airwar!

[Samweis]

Originally posted by Grond
Hitler was the great evil... but he didn't kill 6,000,000 Jews, Gypsies and other minorities and mentally retarded persons by himself. There were thousands of people who were willing to follow his doctrine of death right up to the end... and many of them were not German.


Yes, you are totally right.

I hope I can say my thoughts in English:

Hitler gave them the feeling, that they are doing a big job and that he takes the responsibility for everything.

The involved persons did a small part of the "death-machinery", only.

The victims were dehumanised before - so everybody could calm down.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Samweis
The involved persons did a small part of the "death-machinery", only.

You know, I even read somewhere that in occupied Russia, elderly men who weren't drafted for frontline units in the earlier days of the war (mostly civil servants like policemen and such), were involved in the transportation, and even in the actual killing of Russian jews, gypsies, communists etc. I don't remember if it was in an article about that book by Daniel Goldhagen (about the willing executioners) or somewhere else. It stated that these men would serve for some time and would then return to Germany. Do you know if there's any truth in it?

P.S. I cannot seem to find any facts concerning the printing or selling of Mein Kampf in the Netherlands. *shrug*

[Samweis]

Originally posted by DGoeij
You know, I even read somewhere that in occupied Russia, elderly men who weren't drafted for frontline units in the earlier days of the war (mostly civil servants like policemen and such), were involved in the transportation, and even in the actual killing of Russian jews, gypsies, communists etc. I don't remember if it was in an article about that book by Daniel Goldhagen (about the willing executioners) or somewhere else. It stated that these men would serve for some time and would then return to Germany. Do you know if there's any truth in it?

Sorry, I never heard about that.

[greypilgrim]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
LOL dude! I know, NOBODY in their right mind likes Hitler, I just wanted to know what he was saying. OK??

Anyway yea it's time to talk about new things.

The Me 262, if it hadn't come so late what do you think would have happened then? I mean i would totally have change the airwar!
OK!
The airwar I am not too familiar with. My dad, however, has really cool miniature planes from WW2. I think he's got a Messerschmit, and an American fighter and a Mosqito or something. :) He musthave liked planes.....

Anyone see the series, Band of Brothers??? THE BEST!!!!

Germany had most of the best air forces in the beginning of the war, in the most amounts. And H. Goerring eventually took control of them, during the War or something, through being friends with Hitler. My guess is he had no idea what to do against the combined enemy countrie's air forces later in the war, and he wound up another strange piece in the dying Nazi war chess game. He commited suicide in holding after the War.

Anyone read the manuscripts of the Nurnberg Trials, 1946, I think?

Or read the book, "Night", by Elie W.?

[Arvedui]

There is a lot to be said about Mr. Göring, not all of it positive.
He did, however know something about airplanes. After all, he became an ace in WW I, and was one of the biggest stars in the Luftwaffe before WW II. So your suggestion that he took control over the Luftwaffe during the war is not correct. he was Air Marshall before the war started, and should also have the "credit" of what the Luftwaffe was in the first period of WW II.

Bad luck for the Germans that he was addicted to cocaine, and that they didn't have industrial capacity to keep up with its enemies.
Maybe that would have been different if they had commited to total war from the beginning. Fortunately they didn't.

[greypilgrim]

True, he was an ace, but he was also an ass! Ass meaning donkey, of course. He was fat and walked funny, or something.

[Aragorn21]

Yeah, but I sorta think he was a coward (you know killing himself instead of facing his enemies) he was briliant though.

The German airforce was a kick butt one in the beginning of the war but later on with at the presure and after the battle of britan it was greatly decreased!

[greypilgrim]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
Yeah, but I sorta think he was a coward (you know killing himself instead of facing his enemies) he was briliant though.

The German airforce was a kick butt one in the beginning of the war but later on with at the presure and after the battle of britan it was greatly decreased!
Not every one that kills themself is a coward, though they do it I think out of some kindof fear.

The allies had more planes, plus the Germans could only recruit so many pilots...The Allied countries against them had many mother's sons wanting to be a hero, back then, against Germany specifically. Pilots always get the chicks, that might have had something to do with it!;)

Anyways, what about German Tanks? Methods devised for warfare against them (with other tanks), on land, are still being used today.

If anyone has ever "fired" a tank, you better say so now! That would be awesome! One word for you all...Tiger. And Bradley is another, if you want to talk tanks.:)

[Aragorn21]

The Germans had totally the best tanks! And their methods were the best.

Has anyone here played MOH:AA? Well anyway you get to drive a King Tiger tank, its pretty neat.

[TheFool]

I play MOHAA Spearhead (online only) quite a lot recently, partly because I am lazy :D , partly because my dad spent his pay rise on the unspeakably high-end PC I am sitting at now..

Anyway, of course it's foolish to mix computer games with a 'real war discussion' :rolleyes: (whatever that is) - but I do find MOHAA in equal parts addictive and disturbing; and that's not because 'ooh, it's just like Private Ryan' :rolleyes: , but because of more fundamental things, like I think survivng a 'war' is down to luck more than anything else. It probably doesn't help that I just started reading 'The Forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sajer, which is about surviving WWII on the Russian Front. (I'll post an excerpt from that book later on). Anyway one of the things he mentions is that though the Germans were technologically superior, the Russians simply had an inexhaustable supply of men, material, and land. (eg: the Tiger vs T34)

[Morgoth]

Nazi Germany was only beaten by poor two fatal errors by Hitler. The First was helping Mussolini in Greece, delaying Operation Barbarossa, and losing him the war in Russia. The Second was helping Japan against America, leading America to declare war on Hitler, leading to D-Day. Hitler was kicked by, like a boot at Beckhams head, accident

[Morgoth]

Also, if the Battle of Britain was fought at 40,000 feet, Germany would have beaten Britain

[TheFool]

Originally posted by Morgoth
Also, if the Battle of Britain was fought at 40,000 feet, Germany would have beaten Britain
I thought that the main point about the Battle of Britain was that it was fought over Britain - so most allied pilots shot down could get back in a plane the next day, while the axis pilots had very limited time at their' target points' (or whatever) and if shot down would end up in a British POW camp.

btw heres another picture of a Do335 I found

[Grond]

Actually the Battle of Britain was fought over Britain because the British were defending themselves against a horrible German onslaught. Hitler sought to "prepare" Britain for invasion by destroying as many tactical targets as possible. They began by bombing RAF bases and seaports but were inactive. In September 1940, they then began 57 consecutive nights of what they deemed "strategic" bombing on London, hoping to demoralize the British people.

They drastically underestimated the effectiveness of a new "toy" Britain was using known as RADAR. At the time, RADAR was only effective out to 30 - 40 miles and didn't allow for earlier interception of the British Bombers/Fighters or they would have attacked them further away.

RADAR allowed ground operators to deploy the scant air resources of the RAF in such a manner as to cause the German's fits... but... Great Britain still came within a hair's breadth of running out of everything.

[greypilgrim]

RADAR-Radio Detection and Ranging, probably changed the course of the airwar, before the amounts of planes of the allies. Didn't the Germans use some beams of light, that crossed over targets in England for their bombers? That's how Germany bombed places. The American planes had a better system, for targeting land installations for high-altitude bombing.

I've played MOH-AA, it's the BEST MOH game ever made!!!!!!
If anybody likes strategy-board games, this one rocks: AXIS AND ALLIES. It's got more strategies in it than chess, is re-playable forever, and it's starting date is 1939, I think. Awesome!

TIGER TANK- German heavy tank weighing 63 tons. It carried an 88mm gun, was protected by 7"-thich armor on the front, and could out-gun any Allied tank in the field. Only equipped with a 650-HP engine, giving it a range of only sixty miles, and a top speed of only 12 MPH. It frequently broke down.

SHERMAN TANK: American 34-TON medium tank. Nicknamed "the Ronson". The Sherman used high-octane fuel which was easily ignited when the engine was hit. It was no match for the German Tiger or Panther tanks, but was more reliable, and outnumbered and outflanked the Germans.

I love tanks. Planes were sweet though, I could imagine!
Anyone from Europe seen/visited any WW2 historical landmarks? Please describe quickly to me what it was like there.

[TheFool]

atm my dad seems to be in the process of scanning every photo he's ever taken; here's some from about 1986 on the Normandy coast (I'm the left-handed one :D ). He tried to get us to jump down the ladders on the bunker like in The Longest Day, but it was too high! I don't know if the emplacements or artificial harbours are still there today... I'd like to go back.

[Aragorn21]

You mean your that short dude?

I would love to go to Fance just to see that beach!

[TheFool]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
You mean your that short dude?
lol! yes that's me when I was about 7 yrs old, thats why I don't remember too much about it, other than it being quite surreal... but I do remember it being pointed out that there were/are so many war memorials in northern France.

[Aragorn21]

Oh yeah, that's where one of the biggest, most costly battles of the war was fought. (Operation Overlord) That battle broke Hitlers Europien wall, and opened many doors into Europe from which we kicked his behind!

[DGoeij]

Actually, the Allied forces landed in Normandy because there wasn't much of an Atlantic Wall there.:) And if you compare the number of casualties, or men involved in actual fighting, it wasn't that big a battle in WWII.
As an operation, covering every branch of military organization and involving massive amounts of men and vehicles, planes and ships of every shape and size, combined with the ingenuity of the artificial harbours (and other inventions), it was quite impressive to say the least. If you ever have the opportunity, I strongly recommend a tour through Normandy, visting the beaches, various places where musea have been put up and the memorial cemetary's. Even after all those years, more than enough remains to give you a clear picture of the events that took place. And it's very moving to stand on the actual beach, once designated Omaha and climb up the steep slope, to reach the memorial graves of the soldiers who died there.

[Aragorn21]

it was quite impressive to say the least Your right, it was so top secret nobody knew about it until the day of the attack.

[greypilgrim]

Aragorn: Everything about the invasion of Normanywas entirely impressive! General Patton was headquartered in England, in a strategic location designed to decieve the German high command...He was incharge of a "fake army"...I mean rubber tanks, thousands of barracks-style tents, personnel...His very presence there had the germans thinking that the invasion was coming near the Calais region, of the Atlantic wall. They flew
re-con missions across England, all the time then I guess.

DG: I can imagine! I wonder if actual pillboxes/turrets/big guns on the beaches of the atlantic Ocean have been preserved! I really want to see those "gun-decks" and also the concrete trenches...I would see the WW2 memorial-cemetary. I wonder if that French train car is still in Paris or wherever, where France signed their surrender? That would be eerie to step into....

[Aragorn21]

TheFool: It seems like your really into this Do 335 PFEIL so i have some information on it. "The the Do 335 looks like a real oddball, its twin-engine, tractor-pusher design was technically sound. In nearly all respects teh Pfeil was an excellent performer, highly suited to a military role. Some of its flight characteristics were less than satisfactory, though there is no strong reason why other tractor-pusher warplanes have not been introduced over the years. The reason that this strrange but promising aircraft did not make more of a mark was difficulty getting engines, propellers, redios and other components together in late-war conditions. As the allies advanced across Europe, responsibility for production shifted from Dornier at Oberpfaffenhofen to Heinkel in Vienna, but supply problems were worsened by around-the-clock allied bombing. Several variants of the basic gesign were planned or produced, including a potent two-seat night -fighter, but this great aircraft simply come talong too late to make its mark." Now some facts if you want them. "Type: Single-seatfighter-bomber. Powerplant: Two 1,800-hp. Daimler-Benz DB 603E inverted V-12 piston engines. Max speed: 475 m.p.h. at 21,000ft. Ceiling: 37,500 ft. Range: 1,280 mi. Weapons: One 30-mm MK 103 and two 15-mm MG 151 cannon, plus one 1,100-lb. or tww 550-lb. bombs internally and two 550-lb. bomb externally." Few lots of typeing, sorry about any typos:( , (hope you didn't know about this already.)

[TheFool]

That's some good stuff there Aragorn, thanks for that! Sounds like it would have been really impressive if put into service. I just find this kind of thing interesting, it's the kind of technology that you don't imagine existed in the 1940s (another example would be colour film footage). I think the Allies found the prototypes of this plane, took it away and tested it to its limits (which basically means crashing it), but ended up developing jets instead. I think another very interesting plane was the Lightning, another remarkable design!

NASA have a huge gallery (http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/) of experimental (and weird-looking!) planes, old & new.

[Aragorn21]

I could give you more information on that aircraft if you want, i didn't even give half of it, lol.

The Germans had many other strange aircraft too. Like the piloted rocket that was rocketed into the sky and came diving down blazing its guns at the bombers. I think that one was pretty cool, had trouble landing though.

[TheFool]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
I could give you more information on that aircraft if you want, i didn't even give half of it, lol.

The Germans had many other strange aircraft too. Like the piloted rocket that was rocketed into the sky and came diving down blazing its guns at the bombers. I think that one was pretty cool, had trouble landing though.
There was one called the Komet, and I think a really small one (called 'Natter'?) which had a blunt nose full of rockets... though you're right, you would have to be a brave pilot to get into that type of plane.. :eek:

[Grond]

Yes, the ME-163 Comet was powered by a 1,700kg thrust Walter HWK 509A-2 bi-propellant rocket burning concentrated hydrogen peroxide (T-stoff) and hydrazine/methanol (C-stoff). This deadly mixture was the death of more than one pilot before they even got off the ground. In one instance, the feed lines were ruptured and sprayed the deadly mixture of hydrogen peroxide and hydrazine/methanol directly onto the pilot, promptly melting him into goo. :(

Here's (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/fighter/me163/me163.html) a good link to a website with more information on the ME-163.

[Aragorn21]

It's really quite amazing what the Germans came up with, do any of you ever watcht he untold stories of WWII on the history?

They had more than the ME-262 for a jet, they also had the not-really-used jets like the Keinkel He 162 the Henschel Hs 132, and even a flying wing! (Horten Ho IX)

[TheFool]

originally posted by TheFool
(I'll post an excerpt from that book later on).
Here's something from the book I mentioned.

Captain Wesreidau looked up, to see who had come in. I was about to announce myself when the telephone rang - probably some unimportant report.
A moment later, I began again: 'Gefreiter Sajer, Herr Hauptmann.'
'Back from leave, my boy?'
'Not exactly, Herr Hauptmann. My leave was cancelled.'
'Ah. But you're well now? How do you feel?'
I wanted to tell him how disappointed I was, and how much I still hoped to have at least a few days off, but the words stuck in my throat. I suddenly felt the full strength of my attachment to all the friends who must have been very nearby, an emotion which struck me as both idiotic and profound.
'I'm all right, Herr Hauptmann. I can wait until my next leave.'
Wesreidau stood up. Although I couldn't really see his face, I thought he was smiling. He put one hand on my shoulder, and I felt myself tremble at his touch.
'I'll take you to your friends. I know that being with friends can make up for the lack of a comfortable bed, even for the lack of food.'
I felt stunned. Herr Hauptmann led the way out, and I followed him.
'I always try to group my men as friends,' he explained. 'Wiener, Hals, Lensen, and Lindberg are covering a Pak position. They'll be glad to see you again.'
Wesreidau's tall figure strode through the ghostly fog, which drifted against the darkness in white patches. As we passed, fellows stupefied by sleep stumbled to their feet, and noncoms signalled that everything was calm.
We came to a hole which was somewhat deeper than the others, and which seemed to be occupied by three hunched-up sacks, and two figures leaning against the parapet. I recognised the veteran's voice immediately.
'Welcome to our hole, Herr Hauptmann. We'll be able to talk tonight. Everything's quiet.'
The familiarity of that voice astonished me.
Wesreidau said: 'Here's Sajer, who's just come back.'
'Sajer! I don't believe it! I thought he was living it up in Berlin.'
'I felt lonesome for you fellows,' I said.
'That's a good boy,' the veteran answered. 'You're quite right, too. Here we sometimes even have fireworks, and in Berlin it's total blackout. I remember that from the last time I was there, over a year and a half ago.'
I could hear Hals grumbling sleepily: 'What the hell's going on up there?'
'Wake up, steppe boy,' Wiener shouted even louder than before. 'Herr Hauptmann is here with our dear friend Sajer.'
Hals jumped up as if he'd been shot.
'Sajer!' he said. 'But he's crazy to come back here!'
Wesreidau felt obliged to make a formal intervention. 'If I wasn't aware of your courage in combat, I should be forced to assign you to a penal battalion, Gefreiter Hals.'
Hals was suddenly fully awake.
'Please excuse me, Herr Hauptmann. I was half asleep.'
'Your sleep is pessimistic, Gefreiter Hals.'
The veteran answered for him. 'The day before yesterday, the Don; yesterday, the Donets; this morning, the Dnieper... You must admit, Herr Hauptmann, that even an elephant hide would find that somewhat discouraging.'
'I know,' Wesreidau answered. 'It's just what I've been afraid of ever since we came to Russia. But if we lose our confidence everything will be much harder.'
'It's territory and men that we're losing, Herr Hauptmann, much faster than confidence.'
'The Russians will not be able to cross the Pripet, for absolute geographical reasons. Believe me.'
'Where could we retreat to after that?' Lindberg asked stupidly.
'To the Oder,' the veteran said.
The cold seemed to strike all of us in the vitals.
'God keep us from such a catastrophe,' murmured Herr Hauptmann. 'I would rather be dead than see that day.'
Probably Wesreidau believed in God. In any case, his prayer was granted.

Guy Sajer, 'To The West: Winter, 1943 - Summer, 1944', The Forgotten Soldier, 1967.

[Aragorn21]

Last night I watched a dvd on the hollacaust (can't spell well), it was stories being told of how parent gave up their children at the age of like 5 so they wouldn't be killed. Watching those kind of movies makes me so mad at the Nazi's! And it was also a story of how UK took in thousands and thousands of German children when nobody else would.

[Aragorn21]

In your opinions what was the turning point of the war with Japan?

[DGoeij]

I think the battles of Midway and Guadalcanal. At those, the Japanese Navy and respetively the Japanese Army had been given a serious beating and the US and its Allies could start pushing them back.

[Arvedui]

That was Midway, although that wasn't recognized at the time. The battle of Midway broke the power of the Japanese Navy, and made it impossible for the japanese to hold on to their occupied territories.

[Aragorn21]

Your both right it was the battle of Midway.

I'm going to make another thread for the talk of WWII with Japan, this one will stay with Germany.


Anyways i was reading last night about German aircraft and stuff, and I looked at how many kills the German pilots had. I was like WHOA the most kills an American pilot had in all was 42, this German pilot downed 158! And another 114! Talk about skill!

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Aragorn21
Anyways i was reading last night about German aircraft and stuff, and I looked at how many kills the German pilots had. I was like WHOA the most kills an American pilot had in all was 42, this German pilot downed 158! And another 114! Talk about skill!

Well, maybe this pilot had been engaging the Polish, Norwegian, Dutch, Belgium and French airforces before he encountered any planes that could actually manage a serious dogfight.:D

[Arvedui]

Norwegian airforce in 1940? You must be kidding. I believe they had some 8 planes, and most of them was lost after their plots landed them on a frozen lake. To bad the ice wasn't all that solid....

I'm exaggerating...

[Grond]

Actually, the reason that the Allied forces had aces with fewer kills wasn't an issue of skill but one of strategy. The Allies chose to bring their best and brightest home from the front after a finite number of missions in order to train the up and comers and better prepare the new pilots for the extreme intensity of war.

The Germans didn't have the luxury of being able to follow this plan due to a shortage of personnel and required their most successful pilots to continue flying combat missions until either the war ended or they were shot down.

[Aragorn21]

Well, maybe this pilot had been engaging the Polish, Norwegian, Dutch, Belgium and French airforces before he encountered any planes that could actually manage a serious dogfight. Actually, "All but seven of his 158 kills were against the RAF in the Desert War."
The Allies chose to bring their best and brightest home from the front after a finite number of missions in order to train the up and comers and better prepare the new pilots for the extreme intensity of war. Your so right. I didn't even think of that.

Richard Bong was his name, with 42 kills he was the greatest American pilot of WWII (he fought against Japan). A few years after the war he died in a test flight crash.

Has anyone here ever heard about Joe Foss? He has a great autobiography (suggestive reading)

[Húrin Thalion]

How big was the role that the U.S.A. palye din WWII? I would say that it was close to none. They were Soyuznixhki, minor allies, together with the British. What did they do? Invade France, guarded by second class occupation troops? The Russians would have rolled those over. The American contribution was of another kind, sending corned beef to the Soviet Union through Iraq so they could continue the real fight. Did the Americans have any Stalingrad, Leningrad or Berlin? No. When they came into France in 1944 the war was already decided and done by the Russians in bloodbaths at Stalingrad, Charkov and Kursk, to mention the most important ones. Later that falled the largest remaining German fighting force was oblitterated in the Korsun pocket where the rests of army group middle was sorrounded and surrendered.

I think that Churchill put it best when his advicors said that they could not invade Italy if opposed by more than ONE German division:

"What would comrade Stalin say about that whe he has 185 German divisions to manage!?"

Húrin Thalion

Yea, forgot one thing, they killed a lot of civilians in unnecessary bombing raids together with Harris' bomber command!

[Arvedui]

But I think you are overlooking one crucial fact:
The industrial capacity of the USA.
It was because of the continous flow of materials to Europe, that UK and the Soviet Union were able to continue fighting at all.
And don't forget that USA had to fight a two-front war.
Considering the fact that the USA was not ready for war when they were attacked on dec 7 1941, and when Hitler decleared war on them the day after, I would say they were crucial to the outcome of WWII.

[DGoeij]

Actually, the USA had a smart president this time. Mr. Roosevelt had been preparing the US industry for war for some time. The Lend and Lease pact not only provided Britain with desperately needed supplies, but was turning a significant part of the industry into a war-industry. Not that an assault on Pearl Harbour was expected, but Roosevelt still expected to be at war sooner or later.
The Sovjet war-machine broke the back of the German army at a murderous cost, but the number of jeeps, trucks and tons of fuel and grain that poured into the USSR from the US did have its usefulness.:)

[Arvedui]

Well, Roosevelt might seem smart in retrospect, and I agree that he expected to join the war. The Lend-lease deal was as far as he dared to go at the time. If it wasn't for the public opinion, I guess he would have entered the war long before Pearl Harbor.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Arvedui
Well, Roosevelt might seem smart in retrospect, and I agree that he expected to join the war. The Lend-lease deal was as far as he dared to go at the time. If it wasn't for the public opinion, I guess he would have entered the war long before Pearl Harbor.

Or maybe we should call him lucky. At least he did the right thing at the right time.
I even read about an anecdote about the US war-industry once, I don't know if it's true, but:
Hitler was told that Roosevelt had ordered the US-industry to produce 50,000 planes a year. Hitler declared Roosevelt mad to think anyone could produce 50,000 planes a year. After the war, it was estimated that the US produced an average of over 60,000 planes a year, during the entire war. That's almost 165 planes a day!:eek:

[Gloer]

Britain was defending US interests and US dared to ask for compensation for materials under Lend and Lease.

After 7.12. 1941 USA was in the war and benefitted from all the efforts of the British. That was more than enough compensation for a hesitant nation like USA.

I am not familiar with how UK later payed for the debt accumulated under Lend and lease. I suppose those debts were forgiven?

[Arvedui]

And also there were the Liberty-ships that at its peak took only eight days from start to finish. I guess they worked more than 8 hours a day......

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Arvedui
And also there were the Liberty-ships that at its peak took only eight days from start to finish. I guess they worked more than 8 hours a day......

More likely they worked in three shifts, times 8 hours, makes 24 hours a day.;)

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Gloer
Britain was defending US interests and US dared to ask for compensation for materials under Lend and Lease.

After 7.12. 1941 USA was in the war and benefitted from all the efforts of the British. That was more than enough compensation for a hesitant nation like USA.

I am not familiar with how UK later payed for the debt accumulated under Lend and lease. I suppose those debts were forgiven?

I do not think those debts were too great in the first place. My guess is that they lost the receipe. Maybe they have just found it again, and that is why Toony Blair is so eager to line up with Bush. Think about the interest only after 60 years....:eek:

Toony was a misspelling, but I think I'll leave it there....

[DGoeij]

Roosevelt just found a way to help the Britains without having to go against the public opinion of the time.You can go in 'anti-american mode' about anything, but do you have to?:confused:

[Húrin Thalion]

Considering the fact that the USA was not ready for war when they were attacked on dec 7 1941, and when Hitler decleared war on them the day after, I would say they were crucial to the outcome of WWII.

I then ask you, was the Soviet Union ready the 22nd june 1941? No they were not, the Germans launched an:" Insulting, provocative and thorughly predatory attack upon the Soviet union." (Dekanozov to Ribbentrop at the eve of the invasion). Much of the forces were on permission, the Stalin line was virtually deconstructed, and the partisans in those area had no solid structure which they got later in the war. The army was large but lousy, the tanks were old and inadequate, the most common rifle from 1891, their gear hopelessly aged, but most importantly, their organization was useless with fear, intrigues, no good commanding officers, bad connections and political comissars who made all this worse. No independent thinking at all in the officer corpse which was cleansed out in 1937. The U.S.A. on their side had a large navy in the pacific and fought the was with that navy in the beginning while Hitler was never any real threat to them since he was tied up in the U.S.S.R. The American crucial role you are talking about I do not understand, the Russians had already done the main fight when the American army invaded Normandy. How did the Americans help Russia resist in Leningrad, Kiev, Moscow and Stalingrad? What crucial role did they play through invading France and Italy? A few German divisions more or less wouldn't have mattered, mother Russia would have liberated Europe themselves.

Húrin Thalion

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
How did the Americans help Russia resist in Leningrad, Kiev, Moscow and Stalingrad? What crucial role did they play through invading France and Italy? A few German divisions more or less wouldn't have mattered, mother Russia would have liberated Europe themselves.

Possibly they could have, or maybe not? As soon as the US joined the war, tons of cargo entered the USSR. The famous Katsjoesjka rockets, were almost all of them mounted on Studebaker trucks, made in the USA. Many a tank was filled with US diesel, the crews eating US-rations. Stalingrad and Leningrad could very well have fallen if it wasn't for the allied convoi's across the northern Atlantic.

[Húrin Thalion]

Let us not exaggerate that as soon as the war begun. Most stuff was sent later on and the American rations went much to the industrial workers in the Urals. They sent no diesel from the U.S.A. to the U.S.S.R. becuase they already had own sources in the caucasus and the British sent some. I think that you exaggerate the convoys over the north atalantic, most of the resources were sent from British Iran in trucks. Leningrad recieved little supplies from America, the city was incircled and resources could only be brought in when the Ladoga was frozen. Stalingrad was not held by the help of American supplies but through the bravery and strength of "Ivan" the ordinary infantryman. They endured the unedurable and fought back. I seriously doubt if any westernn european/american soldiers would hvae done that.

Húrin Thalion

[DGoeij]

I will not exagerate these supplies if you wil not make them insignificant. :)

And about standing their ground, the ordinary G.I. did that during the Battle of the Bulge, december 1944. And they didn't do it because the alternative was being shot by their countrymen from the NKVD.
Saying the Americans did hardly anything during WWII is as untrue as claiming they won the war by themselves, don't you think?

[Aragorn21]

Saying the Americans did hardly anything during WWII is as untrue as claiming they won the war by themselves, don't you think? Dude your so right, i couldn't agree with you more.

[Húrin Thalion]

Alas, I must agree but it is not so that I have said that they did hardly anything, only that they had little influence on the outcome of the war.

And I wouldn't say that the Russian soldiers held their ground under threat, in Stalingrad the NKVD fought alongside their friends and their role was significantly diminished in 1943. They fought for their nation as well as the Americans, never forget that. They saved you, me and the rest of the world from Nazi rule and I, unlike Ciryaher, do not support the military expansion of the third reich. The soldiers in Rodimtsev's division did not swear their oath that: "There is no ground behind the Volga for us." Under threat from NKVD, they were never forced to go into the city at night and loosing 50% of their comrades.

And, yes the Bulge, the first and only time the Nazi's attempted anything at the western front, failed because they ran out of fuel, not because American or British resistance. I am sorry but none of our nations did much in the war against Germany, Sweden allowed German troops to go by train to Finland to fight alongside the Finns against the C.C.C.P. and exported fine iron to them. Also the planned new German capitol, Germania, was to be built by Swedish granit.

Húrin Thalion

[TheFool]

Húrin Thalion I would be interested to know what you opinion of Stalin is. And what do you think of his actions especially at the start of Barbarossa... leading up to Moscow nearly being taken. Was he a great war leader?

[Húrin Thalion]

Well he was in one way. that he let the military run the war and did not interfere too much. His actions were mostly hurryinhg or slowing attacks like when he hurried operation Uranus and slowed the assault on Berlin for various reasons. He did not try, like Hitler did, to lead every single battalion personally. He satyed out of the war and instead he harvested the fruits of glory. Wisely enough. His acting after the invasion was irrational and worsened by the officer's corps inability to take responsibility and initiative. Politically and morally I see Stalin as a terrible person who had many peope murdered.

Húrin Thalion

[Aragorn21]

LOL Thal it appears you know just about nothing of WWII. Who was it that helped the British by giving them supplies thus inabling them to win the Battle of Britin? Who was is that crushed the German U-boats? Who was it that assaulted the strongest point of German defences on Normandy? Who was it that bombed his homeland bringing ruin to many of his factories and oil refineries? Who was it that won the air war over the Germans? Who was it that crushed Rommels forces in Africa? WERE ANY OF THE MAJOR ACTIONS DONE BY THE RUSSIANS???? NO! The Russians only fought the Germans because the Germans attacked them first (at the stupidest time i might add, in the middle of the russian winter).

Your acting like at the end of the war the other allies were sitting around, well LOL don't forget the American's and the British each were controling a third of Germany, not just the russians.

(My view of Stalin? A murderous coward.)

[Arvedui]

I think we all might profit from cooling down somewhat. But still I can understand that the temperature rises occationally.
A couple of things I cannot leave unnattended:
From Húrin Thalion:

His acting after the invasion was irrational and worsened by the officer's corps inability to take responsibility and initiative .

You don't think the officer's inability might have an explanation in the fact that Stalin before the war executed those officers that had shown ability to take responsibility and initiative?

From Aragorn21:
(at the stupidest time i might add, in the middle of the russian winter).
Actually it was in the late summer if I remember correctly.

Húrin Thalion again:
Alas, I must agree but it is not so that I have said that they did hardly anything, only that they had little influence on the outcome of the war.
Since you so obviously have more knowledge than the rest of us in this matter, I would like it if you could explain what I quoted in a manner that I can understand. Up until now, I have thought that even if there were no soldiers in Europe until the last couple of years of WWII, the US industry was what kept Hitler away from the UK, and therefore making it able to be a staging area for the Second Front (which Stalin was litterally crying for in 1943. And also, supplying the Soviet Union, and still then producing enough to allow the US army and Marine Corps to fight a winning war in the Pacific.
What you have stated so far is IMO, only opinions. If I'm going to sue my history teacher, I want some evidence.
Please?

[Húrin Thalion]

I don't like my history teacher either, so I will help you sue him.

First I would like to answer to Aragorn21's post. Those "mayor actions" were not so great. The U-boat war did not play any part for the outcome of the war, who was it that bombed the German working class areas on purpose? Who was it that beat Rommel's THREE German divisions? Who was it that assaulted the weak and half-hearted German defences of Normandy? I don't think that the other allies were just sitting around, they just hadn't the capacity to do as much as the Russian. The Americans only fought because the Germans attacked them too. It odes not matter how much of Germany they controlled, but how much territory they conquered under which kind of resistance.

I thank you for the compliment Arvedui and I will at your request move over to facts. 200 German division and allies attacked C.C.C.P., very few of them were removed to the western fron later, one of the few exceptions is the SS Hermann Göring division. They also had 3350, and almost all new produced were sent there. The number of German soldiers lost on the eastern front were nine times as many as on the western (2415690/264,356). These are underestimated facts, many casualties that were counted as western front were in fact eastern. The American contribution was really by sending food to the Soviet Union. By keeping Britain alive they did enable a second front but Britain really dtood alone when the danger was as worst in 1940. The second front was, as said not as great a help as many may think.

Húrin tahlion

[Gandalf White]

who was it that bombed the German working class areas on purpose? We did, and I don't really care, as long as their production stopped. Who was it that assaulted the weak and half-hearted German defences of Normandy? I find it rather sickening, your downplay of the greatest naval assault of all times, where many many brave American and British soldiers gave their lives against those "weak" beaches.
*vomits*

[Aragorn21]

Actually it was in the late summer if I remember correctly Sorry your right, they should have called off the attack in the winter (they didn't) silly me...

The U-boat war did not play any part for the outcome of the war If you would think the U-boats were sinking many innocent cruisers and war supplies for the british. The Americans only fought because the Germans attacked them too Please inform me whene this was mate, because i thought Japan attacked us. half-hearted German defences of Normandy I can't believe you.... Those Germans were some of the most confedent men in the German army (wouldn't you be?) they thought no one would ever attack them.

[Húrin Thalion]

Sorry your right, they should have called off the attack in the winter (they didn't) silly me...

Well... That was not the real problem, the problem is that they said 'On s'engage et puis on voit.' Let's get in and see what happens. The operation in France was painstakingly planned but in Russia they counted on being able defeating the enemy before they could resist. Which they could not.

If you would think the U-boats were sinking many innocent cruisers and war supplies for the british.

Yes... Cruisers are never innocent since they are warships. If you mean freighters it is still unable to be cmpared to the indiscriminate bombings of civilians with one goal: To kill German labourers and break their morale. Bringing supplies to the British was not very important for the outcome of the war.

Please inform me whene this was mate, because i thought Japan attacked us.

the 11th of december 1941, 10 o'clock Central European Time, the German Reichstag convened and heard the Führer Adolf Hitler read a declaration of war against the United states. Maybe you will now be more careful to laugh and say that someone else 'knows just about nothing about the second world war.'

I can't believe you.... Those Germans were some of the most confedent men in the German army (wouldn't you be?) they thought no one would ever attack them.

Well I would certainly not! The imminent invasion was obvious, the troops by the shore were without tanks and SS divisions. Would you be confident if your once so proud army had been crushed by the great enemy of the east? Perhaps I should repeat these facts: German soldiers MIA/KIA on the eastern front: 2415690. Number of Germans KIA/MIA on the western front and in Germany (many of them afflicted by the Russians) 264356.

Húrin Thalion

[Aragorn21]

still unable to be cmpared to the indiscriminate bombings of civilians If you'll look into some real history books instead of the one's you've been reading you'll see many of these bombing were accidents do to bad weather and the like (i'm not excusing them i'm just pointing out)the 11th of december 1941, 10 o'clock Central European Time, the German Reichstag convened and heard the Führer Adolf Hitler read a declaration of war against the United states Strange... that doesn't sound like an attack to me. And besides the US would have declared war on Germany whether they did or not...at least we didn't try and side with them like the Russians.Well I would certainly not! The imminent invasion was obvious, the troops by the shore were without tanks and SS divisions OK, picture this... you have a whole beach of cannons you could fit down the barrel of...theres mg nests everywhere you look...theres a huge beach in front of you with MILLIONS of mines and obsticals and a still fairly large army behind you...you must not be a very confident person. great enemy of the east Oh comeon.. what's that?? OH, OH YEAH the russian winter (don't forget mate their not supplied for that)... your right nobody can beat the forces of nature.

[Arvedui]

When the Soviet Union was attacked, the US of A was not a participant in the war, and still they helped the Soviets. Even if they did so by 'just sending food??' I suppose that even the Communists needed to eat, especially when working at least 12 hours a day to help you country to survive. Any way, USA did not send just food.
And I also find it rather amusing that you complain about USA not doing anything when the Soviets was attacked. At that time, all free countries had enough to do for themselves to keep the enemy at bay. How many countries could have helped the USSR at the time? Think about it! UK was just recovering from Battle of Britain, they didn't even realize thait was over. USA was neutral, and your beloved Soviet Union was actually an ally to Hitler right up to the day when they were attacked. It does take some time to get hold of the right equipment and also to get it halfway across the world, over open ocean, through enemy lines.
who was it that bombed the German working class areas on purpose? The Soviets did, for one....
But lease do not forget who started the bombing of civilian targets. That was the Germans. But maybe London's East End wasn't working class enough?
I don't think that the other allies were just sitting around, they just hadn't the capacity to do as much as the Russian.
German soldiers MIA/KIA on the eastern front: 2415690. Number of Germans KIA/MIA on the western front and in Germany (many of them afflicted by the Russians) 264356.
Well if the number of soldiers killed in action is a meassure a nations capacity to do something, you have a point....
And the number of soldiers, and the willingness to use them