The Edain - The Twice Fallen?

[Ancalagon]

I will try to convey logic in my ramblings as best I can, I only hope you understand it!

I do not doubt Tolkien often wrestled with the reasons for introducing a fall of Men into his work. Although not entirely conclusive, Men dramatically fell from grace on two separate occassions; prior to their first encounter with the Eldar and as a direct result of their attempt to assail Valinor. There is a distinct significance in theological (primarilly Catholic) terms regarding the initial downfall and the attempt to seek access to Valinor, which I would suggest is the allegorical 'Eden' of Arda. Of course, Tolkien disliked allegory in all its manifestations, so could the unconscious inclusion of 'downfall' akin to the 'original sin' concept be considered an unsubstantiated truth in his work?

If one considers the Downfall of Numenor, should it represent the downfall of the entire race of Men? Alternatively, Numenoreans might have been considered indicative of the forgiven Men, who acknowledged Iluvatar, acknowledged the Valar and were in simple terms the 'righteous' among the Edain. If so, does this mean their elavated status among humankind was granted against the backdrop of a previous downfall that might be considered a response by Iluvatar to Man's original sin.

Where then does the evidence for this downfall originate? Tolkien had certainly wrestled with the idea evidenced in 'Athrabeth
Finrod ah Andreth' whereby the discussions between Finrod Felagund and Andreth The Wise reveals a dark past in the History of Men prior to their arrival in Beleriand.

In the The Drowning of Anadûnê Tolkien refers briefly to the 'First Fall of Man' Men (the Followers or Second Kindred) came second, but it is guessed that in the first design of God they were destined (after tutelage) to take on the governance of all the Earth, and ultimately to become Valar, to 'enrich Heaven', Ilúve. But Evil (incarnate in Melekō) seduced them, and they fell.
A little later in the same text (IX.402) he wrote:
Though all Men had 'fallen', not all remained enslaved. Some repented, rebelled against Meleko, and made friends of the Eldar, and tried to be loyal to God.

It seems diifcult from our understanding of this Fall to comprehend why the race were entirely 'Fallen' in light of the fact that they were corrupted and decieved by Melkor, without interjection by any of the Valar. Yet, is this the very reason Andreth is reluctant to recount her tale? Men were originally guided by Eru himself and not the Valar? Is this coincidence, that the Valar remained in Aman, addressing the needs of the Firstborn, while the Second were instructed by the Creator himself? I suppose one can begin to understand the pattern emerging in the plan Eru had for his Children! Yet, the misunderstanding of Andreth speaks clearly of the race of Men; Andreth looked up and her eyes darkened. 'The Valar?' she said. 'How should I know, or any Man? Your Valar do not trouble us either with care or with instruction. They sent no summons to us.' It is intriguing to know that Andreth also relates 'Death' as the 'Wound' which Men recieved because of Melkor, and for that the blame lies with The Valar, for Melkor is of the Valar and the equation seems comprehensive. But, the reality is that Death is the Gift, for what reason we do not know, but it was the Gift of Eru. So where then does the 'Fall' come into play in the first instance?

One must consider that which Andreth was truly reluctant to discuss, the Guidance of Eru in their beginning. It seems such that denial of their Creator is their sin and the sole reason for the first Downfall of Man! For the belief was held among Men in the beginning that they also were incarnate, as the Elves. Yet, in their dark past this gift was taken from them and so the punishment appears to them as Death, this was the Marring of Mankind and for that Melkor was responsible. Again it is the relationship with Eru that strikes me as the most significant aspect of their origins; Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.' Further Andreth recounts; 'In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.

Therein lay the key to their downfall (if that is what it can be called) for at this time Melkor appeared among them and named himself 'The Giver of Gifts' teaching and instructing them and ever seeking to encourage desire and lust for more and greater things.Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed,' he said. 'The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.' Melkor proceeds to extend his power and fear over these unhappy few, denouncing The Creator as 'The Voice of the Dark' and so setting himself up as the exalted Lord of Men. Rather a depressing predicament especially when the 'Voice of the Dark' speaks one final time; The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.' The gross corruption and indecency Melkor inflicted upon the Race of Men is beyond words, worse yet is severing of this people from their creator. I wonder then was this their 'Downfall' in the sense of a Christian viewpoint; the removal from the Creator? If so, then it is a self-inflicted wound, but not without blame being laid at the door of Eru. It seems that his Children were ill-prepared to deal with such evil, physically or spiritually.

However, it seems that some of these escaped the shadow and came upon the Elves. Strangely enough, both peoples meet in the middle having run from a dark past, both of whom were reluctant to speak of the evils they had particpated in. The Noldor had spilt the blood of their own in Valinor and were doomed by Mandos, Men had worshipped Melkor and forsaken their God! Yet, from within the race of Men there comes the Three House of the Edain; they can be viewed as the 'righteous' in the sense that they attempt to return to their Creator and learn moe of him through the teachings of the Eldar.

The Downfall of Numenor presents a continuation of this fall into darkness from which they had originally fled. The detatchment from Eru, the return to the worship of Melkor, the forgotten history for which they had seemingly repented.
Letter 212The Downfall is partly the result of an inner weakness in Men – consequent, if you will, upon the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not finally healed. Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment! The Fall is achieved by the cunning of Sauron in exploiting this weakness. Its central theme is (inevitably, I think, in a story of Men) a Ban, or Prohibition.
The Númenóreans dwell within far sight of the easternmost 'immortal' land, Eressea; and as the only men to speak an Elvish tongue (learned in the days of their Alliance) they are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves – but they remained mortal, even though rewarded by a triple, or more than a triple, span of years. Their reward is their undoing – or the means of their temptation. Their long life aids their achievements in an and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for their enjoyment. Foreseeing this in pan, the gods laid a Ban on the Númenóreans from the beginning: they must never sail to Eressëa, nor westward out of sight of their own land. In all other directions they could go as they would. They must not set foot on 'immortal' lands, and so become enamoured of an immortality (within the world), which was against their law, the special doom or gift of Ilúvatar (God), and which their nature could not in fact endure..


End of Part One

[Ancalagon]

Part Two

The difficulty I have is in understanding the 'Fall' in the first instance as I do not believe Eru was forthcoming in his prepartion of the secondborn. If he alone was the 'voice in the wilderness' that called them, without revealing himself, how then can the Children be held accountable for being deceived by Melkor? We know 'Death' was from the beginning, it was not taken from them either by Melkor or Eru alike, so what then can be the punishment;

1. The fear of Death itself?
2. The reduction in lifespan?
3. The severance from the Creator?

Could it be all 3 or none at all considering these seemed inevitable from the outset? Were Men punished before they were brought into this world and doomed to suffer in order to inherit?

The 'Second Fall of Man' does not come as a great surprise then considering their history. The deciept of Sauron and the return to worship of Melkor is less forgiveable in this case as the Numenoreans could be considered better prepared and more learned in their understanding of Eru and their place upon Arda. The span is reduced for the saved by the mingling of blood among the remaining Edain in Middle-Earth, the land was destroyed, Valinor was removed beyond sight and knowledge and only a few of the 'righteous' among the Race of Numenor were saved. Yet, it strikes me that this is not entirely a 'Downfall of Man' in the general term, more akin to the destruction visited upon Sodom by the Lord!

What then can we consider to be the actual 'Downfall' in the case of Men in the History of Arda?

[Arvedui]

Initially, I find it hard to see the Downfall of Númenor as the downfall of the entire race of Men. Not all Men were Númenoreans, so that is why I to begin with opposed to that idea. But when I started to think about it, I am not longer so sure. I am starting to see the two occations as one whole.
In the beginning, a lot of the Edain were seduced by Melkor, and as such "fell". One can of course say that this is partly because of the absence of Eru or any of the Valar, but still the Edain did not follow the Voice that talked to them from the beginning.

Some of the Secondborn did not fall in the beginning and were after named the Three Houses of the Edain. They were closer to Eru and fought against Melkor. And still, when they were rewarded for their actions, they harkened to Sauron who spoke against the limitations that the Valar had placed upon the Númenoreans. This would, in my book, be a greater downfall than the initial one, because they were once True. Thus, by turning away from Eru the Númenoreans brought to conclusion the Downfall of Men.


I hope you can find some sence in what I wrote. It may seem a little disorganized... :rolleyes:

[Ancalagon]

What then constitutes the actual downfall in either case? How do we define a punishment for the Race if we consider that increased longevity contributed to their desire for immortality?Their long life aids their achievements and wisdom, but breeds a possessive attitude to these things, and desire awakes for more time for their enjoyment. Foreseeing this in pan, the gods laid a Ban on the Númenóreans from the beginning: they must never sail to Eressëa, nor westward out of sight of their own land. This in itself seems to show that Men are restricted by mortality and tempted and teased with immortality, and this longevity was designed as a reward for the faithful!

[Nóm]

I don't think the first downfall could be avoided. It seemed to be in the nature of men to listen to the voice of evil and end up ignoring the voice of Iluvatar. I think the punishment was that their nature was changed in such a way that they now suffered the seperation of hroa and fea upon dying. This is what Finrod thinks is the cause of men fearing death. The fear of death causes men to envy immortality.

I think the Numenoreans are the result of that downfall. The Numenoreans might have had longer life but they still feared death. I do not think that was a downfall of the entire race of men though. It did not change the other men of the world, unless you assume that it kept Numenorean blood from speading among the other men - Which isn't really a downfall, just the prevention of something that might seem pleasant.

[Ancalagon]

The difficulty therein lies, that if their Downfall came before any had yet died, who is to say that they would not have feared death when it was visited upon them? Melkor appears in time to deny understanding of the concept of death, even a possible explanation given by the Creator when it might occur! This then still leaves the consideration that Death was inevitable, the loss associated between love and death was also inevitable, but at this point not experienced by the Edain.

We cannot know, nor indeed does Finrod, what was the meaning of Death and its impact upon Men, especially when one considers that the separation of fëa and its hröa in the case of Elves. This meant a summons of the spirit to Mandos, and an eventual reincarnation. Death does not mean death to Elves in the final sense that it does to Men. Death held no burden on the heart for Elves and Andreth recognised this, so the fear of Death itself may yet be inherent to all Mankind?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The difficulty therein lies, that if their Downfall came before any had yet died, who is to say that they would not have feared death when it was visited upon them? Melkor appears in time to deny understanding of the concept of death, even a possible explanation given by the Creator when it might occur! This then still leaves the consideration that Death was inevitable, the loss associated between love and death was also inevitable, but at this point not experienced by the Edain.

We cannot know, nor indeed does Finrod, what was the meaning of Death and its impact upon Men, especially when one considers that the separation of fëa and its hröa in the case of Elves. This meant a summons of the spirit to Mandos, and an eventual reincarnation. Death does not mean death to Elves in the final sense that it does to Men. Death held no burden on the heart for Elves and Andreth recognised this, so the fear of Death itself may yet be inherent to all Mankind?
I suppose there is no way to know for sure, but I do not think it is far-fetched to assume that men would not have feared death if one assumes that Finrod was correct about the unnatural seperation of hroa and fea.
If no men had died before this all happend, then I do not know that they could have feared death, since they will never have witnessed it.
But, let's assume this seperation of fea from hroa never happend. Men would then see the body of the dead leave the world. Seeing that happen might cause men to feel that death is not the end, but just a moving on.

By the way, I suspect this may have happend to Beren and Luthien - maybe, their hroar and fëar did not seperate.

[Ancalagon]

I see the logic in your response, though I still have difficulty equating the departure of both fëa and hröa from the confines of Eä.

I believe the separation of fëa and hröa to be an inevitable aspect of the death of Men before their downfall, even though Andreth believes it not to be so. Even beyond the confines of Eä there is no place for the body, but freedom of the spirit. The fëa being unbounded, unshackled by the limitations of the hröa. This remains the gift of the Edain, to depart, sever the two and escape the boundaries and restrictions of Eä. The Elves are bound to this world, their fëa and hröa at one with it until such as time as it ends. They cannot escape Eä in the manner that Men seem able to, yet it seems they do not view this as a positive, rather a fearful negative outcome; a punishment.

[gate7ole]

I, also find a drawback in the theory of the departure of both fëa and hröa, since the latter is part of Arda and cannot have existence beyond it. Assuming that this was not the punishment for the fallen Men, one should search for psychological wounds. What if the punishment was the knowledge of the fear of Death? Not caused by any physical wound, but by an imposed theory that Men had fallen and had been punished. My understanding is that throughout their history, the Edain lived with the burden of their fall and with the belief that were punished with Death for this. Why have these two things to be in reverse order? My suggestion is that Men feared that they were punished with the loss of incarnation, (which we know is untrue) and this fear alone was a punishment.
For the Númenóreans, there isn’t much to say. The burden that they carried through their history was never rejected. I guess that it worked subconsciously. Or, to link with what I said previously, the Númenóreans acquiring great knowledge, may have at last understood that they were not punished as their tradition said by Death but it was originally given to them, assuming then that the Valar had no powers on them (explaining thus, the almost suicidal attack against them).

[Arvedui]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
What then constitutes the actual downfall in either case? How do we define a punishment for the Race if we consider that increased longevity contributed to their desire for immortality? This in itself seems to show that Men are restricted by mortality and tempted and teased with immortality, and this longevity was designed as a reward for the faithful!

If this would be the case, then would not the downfall be that Men did not understand that Death was given them as a Gift? In its outmost sense that is.
Did not Iluvatar give this Gift to Men so that they after a time would be released form Middle-earth?

[Nóm]

Finrod (I know he isn't all knowing, but he does know a lot!) had trouble with the idea of the body leaving the confines of the world too. He says that one would suppose that the body being made of Arda would not leave Arda, nor outlast it. He'd rather think that a fea would eventually abandon it's house.

Then Andreth speaks about the body not only being a house, but raiment, and that the raiment and wearer are each fitted to the other. She thinks that if it were natural for the body to be abandoned and die, and natural for the fea to live on, then the severence of those two would be a great "disharmony" for men... and that "the parts would not be united by love", and that in this case the body would be a hindrance, a chain, and an imposition.
And she goes on to say:
I hold that in this we are as ye are, truly Incarnates, and that we do not live in our right being and its fullness save in a union of love and peace between the House and the Dweller. wherefore death, which divides them, is a disaster to both.
It is after hearing these things that Finrod goes with the idea of a body leaving Arda.


'Ever more you amaze my thought, Andreth,' said Finrod.
'For if your claim is true, then lo! a fea which is here but a taveller is wedded indissolubly to a hroa of Arda; to divide
them is a grievous hurt, and yet each must fulfil its right nature
without tyranny of the other. Then this must surely follow: the
fea when it departs must take with it the hroa. And what can this mean unless it be that the fea shall have the power to uplift
the hroa, as its eternal spouse and companion, into an endurance everlasting beyond Ea, and beyond Time? Thus would Arda, or part thereof, be healed not only of the taint of Melkor, but released even from the limits that were set for it in the "Vision of Eru" of which the Valar speak.
'Therefore I say that if this can be believed, then mighty indeed
under Eru were Men made in their beginning; and dreadful beyond all other calamities was the change in their state.

I wont shun the possability if he didn't. On the other hand, I do not understand how he was swayed by Andreth's words.
I think she was very bitter, and I vaguely recall my first opinion was that Andreth speaks of chains and imposition out of her personal experiences of loving an elf, and not on behalf of the majority of her race. Surely she would have been more sore about this than your average immortality-envying human.

It could be gate7ole, that the downfall was not the seperation of body and spirit, nor the direct infliction of the fear of death. But rather an indirect infliction though a failure to reach a wisdom.
Perhaps it is that men were first born and were originally going to be enlightened about things which would cause them to not fear death, and this failed to happen because they were fooled by evil bringer of gifts, and beagn to ignore the voice and to seek for the answers themselves.
The voice of (apparently) Iluvatar:
'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'

In this case it would be the doing of Morgoth and the failure of men, their fall.
Ancalagon brings up, in his Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth thread over in the Ost-in-Edhil, the idea that men could have had guilt or shame about this having been partly their fault, and not wholly Morgoth's, and that this could be why Andreth was reluctant to tell Finrod Adanel's story. I agreed with him about that, but if it is true that the downfall was men's failure to gain wisdom, then it has less to do with Iluvatar stepping in and punishing, and much more to do with them - so all the more reason to be ashamed.

[Ancalagon]

Nóm et al, some excellent points raised in trying to understand this very concept! I have had another thought in relation to this that you might wish to mull over: '"Not so" I say indeed,' answered Andreth. 'We may have been mortal when first we met the Elves far away, or maybe we were not: our lore does not say, or at least none that I have learned. But already we had our lore, and needed none from the Elves: we knew that in our beginning we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.'From, The Athrabeth This point raised by Andreth interests me greatly, for I wonder if the inability of Men to understand what 'everlasting life' should mean to them, was part of the reason for their confusion. Did Eru convey to them originally that they would reside with him folowing their departure from Arda to sit in 'everlasting life' by his side, but this was lost upon Men when they came into contact with Elves, first realising that death did not find Elves, but swiftly it found Men. Henceforth, they questioned the fact that death itself was not a gateway to everlasting life, because somehow along the way they could not equate the fact that death of the hröa, also meant for Men alone, death of the fëa. But to witness Elves, and to know that separation of both meant little more than a time apart only to be once again reunited was a concept too incomprehensible for them to grasp! That Men had been born 'never to die' coupled with the fact that Men indeed do die, whereas Elves seemingly did not, somehow muddied the waters of life after the death of the hröa. I would suggest that Men lost sight of death as their true gateway to life!

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
Did Eru convey to them originally that they would reside with him folowing their departure from Arda to sit in 'everlasting life' by his side, but this was lost upon Men when they came into contact with Elves, first realising that death did not find Elves, but swiftly it found Men. Henceforth, they questioned the fact that death itself was not a gateway to everlasting life, because somehow along the way they could not equate the fact that death of the hröa, also meant for Men alone, death of the fëa.


I think it is possible, but tend to believe otherwise. I think it more likely that this knowledge isn't something they lost but something they were to gain but failed to. There are really just a couple small reasons I take this view. One, Eru told men that they would have joy in the finding of answers. This implies, since we know they ended up forsaking this counsel and as a result of that they fell, that they missed out on something great in their experience within Arda. What answers were men to find that would be so great? I imagine this was some kind of wisdom which would have made them happier by seeing death as a gift and not failing in hope. Could it be that knowing the depature from hroa is not a bad thing, was this vital piece of information that men were to have joy in the finding of? I think so. Another reason I view it this way is that I find it harder to believe that people who had been in a state of understanding death, would have been so easily won over into fearing it by Morgoth. If they knew the truth about death, I imagine they would not have feared him so much, and most importantly would not have despaired, having known that no matter what he does to the hroar the fear can not be broken and will soon be out of his reach. It was that information which allowed Hurin to stand against Morgoth, I believe.

Elves in their early days believed that their fear went out into the darkness upon death of the body. In general the elves learned very much, and especially the Eldar and of them especially the Calaquendi, in their begining their were maybe as ignorant as men but they learned better. Of course men and elves are different, so it does not stand to reason that if the elves came into the world ignorant and gradually learned better, that men must do the same. And how did elves learn better? It had to be from the Valar, how else would they suddenly begin to have knowledge of what takes place after death of the body? Unless some elves returned from Mandos and gave the whole lot an earfull around a campfire ;). But we see the elves being instructed by the Valar, and we see men learning much on their own and according to the tale of Adanel the voice seldom answered their questions but told them to seek for the answers themselves but not to be in a hurry to leave childhood. It could be that Eru answered men about death, and that this was the men's parallel of the Valar's instruction to the elves, but because it is said that the voice seldom answered the questions it just seems right to me that he did not tell them about death. I rather think the men's parallel was Eru's instruction to seek for the answers themselves and to take their time about it, and not the direct conveying of the greatness of the gift of death.

To me it seems that men, being sole masters of themselves within Arda, were ment to learn this on their own. I believe that it was ment to be that knowledge would filter down to men through the elves from the Valar, but maybe that was a healing of Arda Marred. Maybe in Arda Unmarred this would not have even been needed by men, and they would have grown noble and wise on their own, and their wisdom and knowledge would have been of a different kind than the elves'. It is clear that all the elvish teachings made men a better people but it also seems clear that this was not the best way... need I say Numenore? It just didn't work, but all the same that blood mingled with the men of Middle-earth so good did come of it. Men can learn all they can from elves and about the Valar, but it isn't sufficient. If they had learned about death from Eru then it wasn't sufficent - it is evident by the fall. I just can't see how such knowledge coming form Eru would not have been enough, so I think the knowledge that would enable men to view death as a gift is something they never had. Surely it is a thing they could never get from the immortal beings of Arda. Ah... I've rambled. But a couple more things...

Since one reason that I think men were not told about the gift of death by Eru, is that I think if they had knowledge of this they would not have been so weak against Morgoth, I obviously do not think something as simple as witnessing beings immortal within Arda would have poisoned such knowledge about the gift of death or caused the loss of hope that men suffered from. If Eru had given them the knowledge needed to truly view death as a gift, then I suspect they would have either saw the immortals as unfortunate or at least so different that it was okay.

So I would say they did not lose sight, but never had the sight as they should have done when they eventually moved away from childhood, but instead of this they rushed out of childhood too fast. They saw the lies Morgoth first.