A cut I regret to hear about

[Talimon]

Everything can change. But for now this is what the fan-magazine has to say:

The limitations inherent in film adaptations brought Hill a disappointment or two along the way.

For instance, the relationship between Theoden and Merry could not be developed to the degree that it was in the book. "There's a little bit where Merry comes up and says, 'I offer you my sword,' and Theoden says, 'Well, I'll take you as far as the half-way stage. Then you can be one of my knights,' and stuff like that, and Merry says, 'That's great, that's fine!' It's just not there to the extent it is in the books."

Hill and fellow Brit Dominic Monaghan, who plays Merry, pushed for more screen time for the relationship. "We knew it would work, because Dom and I got along like a dream!" Hill says. "We were like brothers! Just like Viggo and I-- we're more then brothers, really! We're very, very close. They knew that Dom and I could do it, because we think in the same way. They knew it would be a great combination, but they still couldn't get it to happen, which is a shame. But we're making films, not documentaries of the book. I'm sad about it, Dom's sad about it, and Peter and the writers are very sad about it."


There is still hope, considering the "pick-ups". And maybe Bernard Hill (Theoden) is being overly critical when he says "it's not there to the extent it is in the books". But that was a beautiful relationship in the book, and made Theodens death all the more emotional. Indeed, if the relationship between them isn't touched on, one has to wonder what will motivate Merry to want to go to battle (not to mention attack the Witch King). Maybe the relationship will be developed between him and Eowyn.... who knows. Let's hope PJ manages to fit it in during the reshoots.

[FoolOfATook]

If PJ is doing this in order to give more time for the Elvish special forces invasion of Mordor.... ;)

Seriously, I've seen reports that a scene showing Deagol and Smeagol's finding of the Ring will be included in the film- something that is very much unneccessary for the filmic narrative- and if we lose a scene as vital as Merry's offering of his sword to Theoden (vital in a number of senses- thematically, structurally, dramatically) to something like a Deagol scene, then I'll be rather disapointed in one New Zealander.

[Talimon]

If the Smeagol/Deagol scene is the worst scene in RotK I'll be surprised. The head costume designer of the films said that is her favorite scene in the whole trilogy. It brought her to tears. I think it will be a great scene for Gollum. Say rather that it should have been filmed for the EE. Ussually this type of scene is filmed, so I'm assuming there is some technical reason it could not be included. Maybe the setting is such that there is no time to develop thier relationship. It could very well be that Theoden must be off at once. Remember, in the books the whole chapters in Rohan are incredibly slow. We are at the "greatest battle of our time", and yet we get this long and drawn-out trek over Rohan. It's great for developing the atmosphere and building some relationships, but in the heat of battle it might not be cinematic.

I still want thier relationship in some shape or form, though.

[FoolOfATook]

The idea of Smeagol's murder of Deagol being a tear-jerker really bothers me, as does the over-all concept of Gollum being a character to pity. In TTT (the film), Sam was made to seem heartless or cruel in his distrust of Gollum, but let us not forget that SAM WAS RIGHT- Gollum is not a character to trust. Smeagol made his decision to kill Deagol and take the Ring- and it was just that- a choice, just like the choice that Bilbo made not to kill Gollum in a cave under the Misty Mountains. Maybe it's because I read The Hobbit before I read LOTR (something that I sense is to some extent rarer now- more people see the films before reading any of the books, I think) but I quite simply have never been able to comprehend the idea that Gollum is more tragic than despicable. Everyone remembers when Gandalf told Frodo that Bilbo was right not to kill Gollum, but let us not forget that Gandalf agreed with Frodo that Gollum deserved death.

I don't know where exactly that rant came from, and I'm kind of sorry that it will bring this thread to a crashing stop, but it's something that's been bothering me for some time, and the anecdotes about the sequence that you repeated sort of triggered this response.

[Mablung]

But do not forget the murder of Deagol was one of Smeagol's greatest woes and it should be shown as so in the movie we can see that Smeagol was a good creature but the Ring could drive anyone to do evil.

[Nóm]

Just how good Smeaol was before he encountered the One Ring is up for debate. I'm of the opinion that he was already a messed up person.

Thanks for providing that, Talimon. I have to say that it does not surprise me in the least. I view it as a given. One thing I've learned through and through with these films is that PJ puts emphasis of different things than I do. It's the lack of attention to these little things that keeps this movie from being special, just as much as an inadaquate (my opinion) portrayal of those that are included.

FoolOfATook, I agree with you some about that.

But mostly, I don't care, not even the slightest, that 'some designer' favors a scene. Why would anyone?

A lot of people think the Moria portion was one of the best, and even though I like Gandalf's confrontation with the Balrog, the rest of Moria literally puts me to sleep.

[Brytta]

Hey, get with the program everyone!

Leaving out the relationship between Théoden and Merry will allow more screen time for a scowling Elrond and a pining Arwen!

Better not to waste screen time on the lesser races! :D

[FoolOfATook]

Now now Brytta, that's not being fair. PJ is more than willing to spend time on lesser races if it means that he can play them as comic relief. Especially if the lesser races are short. The wacky adventures of Gimli the Dwarf prove that short=funny! Now, if you can show Elrond scowling at a wacky Dwarf, then you have sheer cinematic gold. ;):D

[Seraph]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FoolOfATook
[B]The idea of Smeagol's murder of Deagol being a tear-jerker really bothers me, as does the over-all concept of Gollum being a character to pity. In TTT (the film), Sam was made to seem heartless or cruel in his distrust of Gollum, but let us not forget that SAM WAS RIGHT- Gollum is not a character to trust. Smeagol made his decision to kill Deagol and take the Ring- and it was just that- a choice, just like the choice that Bilbo made not to kill Gollum in a cave under the Misty Mountains. Maybe it's because I read The Hobbit before I read LOTR (something that I sense is to some extent rarer now- more people see the films before reading any of the books, I think) but I quite simply have never been able to comprehend the idea that Gollum is more tragic than despicable. Everyone remembers when Gandalf told Frodo that Bilbo was right not to kill Gollum, but let us not forget that Gandalf agrees with Frodo that Gollum deserved death.


I completely agree with you on that. I’m glad I’m not the only who thinks that. Can they possibly make him any more sympathetic?

[Phee]

Originally posted by Talimon
Indeed, if the relationship between them isn't touched on, one has to wonder what will motivate Merry to want to go to battle (not to mention attack the Witch King).

Perhaps that's why they gave Merry the little speeches he delivered to Treebeard and Pippin? That dialogue demonstrated pretty well that Merry wasn't too happy about this war business and wanted to do something to stop it. Perhaps that was in TTT to make up for the lack of realtionship with him and Theoden in RotK? Maybe? *grasps at a few more straws* ;)

I'll still keep my fingers crossed that they'll end up shooting more scenes that'll elaborate on the relationship. Even if it only ends up in the EE, it'd be nice to have it there.

[Ghan-buri-ghan]

RotK will be more of the same TTT nonsense of creating lousy **** that doesn't make story sense, and leaving out wonderful passages that would enhance story development.

This information about Merry-Theoden, true no doubt, is simply more proof of that.

[Ulmo]

I hope they show the Merry and Theoden relationship, but it won't be that bad if it's cut. I think the Smeagol/Deagol scene is more important. How else could movie-only fans find out why in TTT Gollum calls Smeagol a "muuurrdeeerreerrr"?

[PRH]

Hmmm... Why have we been treated to the visual of Merry kneeling before Theoden at Edoras? Certainly there will be something of this relationship included at least.

Also, sounds to me like it wasn't a time issue at any rate, there is no mention of that in the quote from the magazine.

[Talimon]

Also, sounds to me like it wasn't a time issue at any rate, there is no mention of that in the quote from the magazine.

That's why I think it is probably due to the pacing or the context of events. I will take a guess and say that Merry and Theoden only meet for a brief moment before Theoden charges off to Minas Tirith.

[Odo Proudfoot]

I have seen a picture of Pippin and Merry having lunch on the ruins of Isengard. This suggests they may meet Theoden there, and that would add extra scenes before Merry offers him his service in Edoras.

Fingers x-ed...

Odo

[PRH]

Originally posted by Odo Proudfoot
I have seen a picture of Pippin and Merry having lunch on the ruins of Isengard.
If you know where to find that picture I'd love to see it.

[Odo Proudfoot]

Originally posted by PRH
If you know where to find that picture I'd love to see it.

This (http://www.decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/twotowers/large/LOTR-EN04320.html) is not quite the one I remember, but I think it does show the hobbits discovering the stockpiles of Saruman. There was another, I'll keep looking.

Odo

[PRH]

Cool - thanks! That store-room one is pretty interesting nonetheless.

[Grond]

I'm not sure what PJ's take on the Smeagol/Deagol scene will be but I have this quote from Tolkien himself which gives us an insight into (at least) how the author perceived him both before the Ring and after the Ring.from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, 181 To Michael Straight [drafts]
[Before writing a review of The Lord of the Rings, Michael Straight, the editor of New Republic, wrote to Tolkien asking a number of questions: first, whether there was a 'meaning' in Gollum's rôle in the story and in Frodo's moral failure at the climax; second, whether the 'Scouring of the Shire' chapter was directed especially to contemporary England; and third, why the other voyagers should depart from the Grey Havens with Frodo at the end of the book – 'Is it for the same reason that there are those who gain in the victory but cannot enjoy it?']
[Not dated; probably January or February 1956.]

The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean son of thief before it crossed his path. Need it ever have crossed his path? Need anything dangerous ever cross any of our paths? A kind of answer cd. be found in trying to imagine Gollum overcoming temptation. The story would have been quite different!This letter makes it clear that in the author's mind, the Ring exacerbated Gollum's already evil tendencies but Gollum was already evil, none the less.

[Talimon]

This letter makes it clear that in the author's mind, the Ring exacerbated Gollum's already evil tendencies but Gollum was already evil, none the less.

We could get into a big debate regarding this. Many people (me included) believe that one of the key themes in LotR is that nothing is evil to begin with. There are deffinitely many quotes that support this in the tale. I don't know if one of Tolkiens letters is really enough evidence to say that this theme isn't still there. But I do find it interesting that this was his reply.

[FoolOfATook]

Just because Smeagol was already evil when he murdered Deagol and stole the Ring doesn't mean that he was born evil- that he was "evil to begin with".

[Grond]

After Talimon's and FoolOfATook's responses, I reread my post to see if anywhere I stated that Gollum was born evil. It isn't there. My only point was that Gollum was already a corrupted individual BEFORE he got the Ring. I didn't, nor did I mean to, indicate that Gollum was born evil. Tolkien's theme throughout all of his works is that nothing is evil in the beginning. Niether Melkor nor Sauron were so. It was by their actions that they were corrupted, so one can only assume that sometime before Smeagol found the Ring he had fallen into evil (petty or deep, we're not told).

It is also unquestioned that the Ring exacerbated these evil tendencies and corrupted Smeagol all the more, eventually turning him from Smeagol to Gollum.

My reason for bringing all this up was simply to make it clear that if PJ gives us two loving cousins/brothers in a boat fishing and then has SOLELY the power of the Ruling Ring corrupt Smeagol and turn him into some ugly creature (aka Bilbo confronting Gandalf at Bag end and Frodo at Imladris), that is totally inaccurate as the author "intended" for the Ring to be the "turning" factor but not the primary one.

[Nóm]

Grond, not only did you not state it, but I don't even think you implied it.


I was going to say what FoolOfATook said when I read Talimon's post. I then saw that FoolOfATook had already said it.


FoolOfATook... great minds... I no longer doubt it... ;)

[lightingstrike]

I am really looking foward to two parts in the 3 movie-Paths of the Dead-and- The Smeagol/Deagol Scene.

[Michel Delving]

Of course Smeagol/Gollum is sympathetic. He is the ultimate tragic figure: the fallen man (fallen distant hobbit cousin if you're going to be pedantic). Evil is inherent in everyone, that's the point of the Ring's power. He is the pivotal character in Lord of the Rings. He is the symbol of the corruption of power and evil. Jackson has made him a schizophrenic lovable yet repellent creature. He is perfect in the Two Towers film. Just like the book I couldn't wait for his presence in the action. And it makes it all the more tragic and cyclic that Gollum is the one who eventually destroys the ring, reaching redemption, completing the circle.

[LordOfMoria]

the beggining of this thred pop a question to my mind. Do u think PJ will make this battle look bigger than the last alliance on mount doom.????? I think he will! Just a feeling!!! to go out with a bang so to speak!