The Necromancer [Merged threads]

[confused_jrrt]

I was reading the haobit and was just wondering who the necromancer is and why if he is so powerful, is he not mentioned in the lotr.

[ReadWryt]

Sauron in disguise... "Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again." From the Council of Elrond in Fellowship of the Ring.

[Courtney]

Do you know why they called him the necromancer, though? I have always wondered about that...

[Nóm]

Well they didnt know he was Sauron so they called him the necromancer, because he was into necromancy. Necromancy is black magic sort of stuff, especially communicating with the dead...raising the dead and that sort of thing.

[Dwarf Lord]

You know, I don't think they ever did explain why he was given the name necromancer, but it is obvious. Maybe i'll look through the books tonight and see.



DWARF LORD

[Nóm]

Well even aside from the fact that they call him Necromancer...Gandalf referes to him as "black sorcerer"

[Dwarf Lord]

That's true. I do remember Gandalf also saying that he infiltrated his layer at some point. I also think he mentioned something about his powers.



DWARF LORD

[Nóm]

Yep, Gandalf menions it in LOTR, I don't remember exactly what was said about his powers (during his time as Necromancer)

[Dwarf Lord]

Do you know where gandalf talked about it. I thought it was The Council of Elrond, but I don't know. Ir it could be when he comes and tells the tale of the ring to Frodo.




DWARF LORD

[Nóm]

I know he speaks of the Necromancer when he tells Frodo about the ring, I think more is mentioned at the counsil too.

[Dwarf Lord]

I just checked the index in ROTK, and looked up necromancer. I only found one short passage of how gandalf infiltrates the necro's hold, and learns of his powers and that it is sauron in differet form gathering his strength. It's on 244 in FOTR.




DWARF LORD

[Nóm]

Check FOTR...chapter: The Shadow of the Past...couple pages after Gandalf see's the marking on Frodo's ring. It may not have the word "necromancer"...but he speaks of Sauron's shadow taking shape in Mirkwood.

[Dwarf Lord]

I didn't think to look for sauron too. Oh well, that's good.

DWARF LORD

[Dwimmerlaik]

The Necromancer,
Was in fact a plot device used to excuse Gandalf's absence.It should be noted that the idea of the"Necromancer"at this time(meaning when the book was written)probably pointed to Sauron or some other undesirable.
As others have pointed out,the Necromancer did indeed come to mean Sauron.It was thus perhaps fortuitous that the concept of Sauron was established in the hobbit.
I don't think that Tolkein ever meant for the hobbit to be the cornerstone of his later works,but rather the concepts and the ideas that gave birth to them were of a more fluid nature that gave him greater flexibility in fleshing out charachter's and details in later works.

However without the benifit of hindsight,it would be perfectly logical to refer to Sauron as the Necromancer.He does after all have many euphemisms in use by his enemies:Necromancer,Lord of Barad-dur,Lord of the Ring,the Dark Lord,the deceiver etc.
After all,it was not the done thing to give voice to your fears by naming Sauron let alone speak aloud the language of mordor.
Regards:Dwimmerlaik;)

[LadyGaladriel]

Sauron in disguise... ]



Rw when you said that I got a pitcure of the one eye with those novelty disguse glasses on.

[ReadWryt]

"Necro" comes from the Greek word nekros meaning Dead Body. A Necrologist is someone who creates a list of the Recently Dead in a situation with a great deal of mortality, like on 9/11 or an Epidemic...Necromancy literally means someon who conjurs the dead to perform acts for their own purpose.

[Nóm]

But in enlgish necro simple means dead. It does not have to mean an entire dead body. Necromany reffers to dead bodies though.
A good obvious example of necromany in LOTR would the waking of the oathbreaks of the paths of the dead.

[ReadWryt]

Originally posted by Confusticated
But in enlgish necro simple means dead. It does not have to mean an entire dead body.

...now I ask you, when did Tolkien ever deal exclusively in "simple english"? Hehehehehe I would be loathe to debate a Philologist on the meanings of words...:D

[WakanaTachibana]

It was Sauron though it was originally thought to be one of the Nazgul.

[Diamond Took]

oh okay this thread clears up a lot of things. I always thought the necromancer was just some wizard killed by gandalf, but then i though it was suruman...



but it was actually sauron.:p

[Mrs. Baggins]

Sauron.....Saruman.... Didn't you ever notice an amazing resemblence between the two names?

[Nóm]

Originally posted by Mrs. Baggins
Sauron.....Saruman.... Didn't you ever notice an amazing resemblence between the two names?

Before reading The lord of the Rings, I had read nothing about Saruman or Sauron (aside from the references in the Hoobit wherein they are not named)..and I will admit that there was a point while reading The Fellowship of the Ring for the first time, that I thought perhaps they were actually one, Sauron playing the part of Saruman. I was proven a fool for thinking that.....:o

[Maeglin]

I've noticed the resemblance between the two names, but I didn't think much of it, except that both names sound evil.

[Courtney]

But Saruman is good at first....:confused:

[Nóm]

Saruman once was good. Based on things told by Gandalf in The Lord Of The Rings, it seems that Saruman's studying of the Rings of power (which was his man area of of study btw) caused him to want this One Ring. Through his communications with Sauron via palantir he might have grew even more currupted, If that is possible. I am not sure how long Saruman had this Palantir, but Sauron likely didn't get his Palantir until after he returned to Mordor (around the time Bilbo got the ring) then I would assume that Saruman was not communicating with him until then. Remember though, that during the time when the Wizards drove The Necromancer from Mirkwood, Saruman looks to have had a secret agenda.

[Maeglin]

Originally posted by Confusticated
Remember though, that during the time when the Wizards drove The Necromancer from Mirkwood, Saruman looks to have had a secret agenda. [/B]

yes I remember that, It says somewhere(I can't remember where, maybe in one of the appendices) that at first saruman was telling the other istari that it was not sauron lurking in mirkwood, but when it became too obvious he told them that it most likely was, and the only reason he really helped them drive him away was so that he could then search for the ring again without sauron's interference and he would still look good and innocent in the eyes of the other members of the council.

[Dwimmerlaik]

Saruman took posession of Orthanc in 2759,when he felt confident of using the palantir is open to speculation.
Sauron captured Minas Ithil in 2002,and in doing so,thus captured it's palantir.When he first used it is also open to speculation.He would certainly have known what it was and it's potential's and thus may hve used it for it's"seeing"purposes from day one.He certainly could not have used it for communications until sometime after Saruman began using it.
So it may be that communications between Sauron and Saruman began before Sauron's return to Barad Dur.

[Pale King]

The reason that the Necromancer is not revealed as Sauron before the writing of LOTR is simply that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he had not decided who the Necromancer was. It was only when he wrote LOTR that he decided to make the Necromancer actually Sauron.

Its all in Letters.

[Celebthôl]

well actually tolkien wrote the silmarillion 1st but it was said that it would never be published by chumpy publishers n e way the point is that he could have put in the necromancer meaning it to be sauron or even Morgoth some how returning

Jiff

[Pale King]

Sure, the Silmarillion was written first but when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he had not decided that the Necromancer was Sauron.

[Celebthôl]

Yeah i spoz

[Mrs. Maggott]

I have not read all posts on this thread, so if this is redundant, please accept my apology.

Gandalf notes in LOTR at the Council of Elrond that the White Council "learned" that the evil in Mirkwood (the Necromancer) was their "old enemy" Sauron taking shape once again. He also admits that Sauron allowed himself to be "driven out" of Mirkwood after the Battle of the Five Armies so that he could regroup and return to Mordor.

Part of the problem with understanding JRRT fully is that he was not always sure of where he was going with a particular plot, character, etc. and made up his mind either as he went along or he went back and revised some things with which he was not all that happy. Thus, two people can hold diametric opinions about something he wrote - and both can be right depending upon whether one is citing the earlier or later version. This has been made even more problematic with the release by CT of his father's notes, addendums, revisions, speculations etc. I remember in one, Aragorn is originally going to be called Trotter and only later becomes Strider - thank heavens! The other way, he either sounds like a digestive problem or a German dinner!

It is best not to be too dogmatic when discoursing on JRRT's world since the creator himself was not always "quite sure".

[Pale King]

Thats right. In fact Strider was still called Trotter until quite late in the writing of LOTR. Thank goodness it was changed:eek:

[Calimehtar]

I have been re-reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings and I was wondering what/who was the Necromancer mentioned in The Hobbit. All I know about him is that Gandalf and the Council of Thirteen overthrew him and that he was very evil. Does anyone know anything about him? Or what book tells about him so I can read it?

Thanks,
BilbosBane

[Celebthôl]

The Necromancer is Sauron is disguise, he stays in Dul Goldur in mirkwood until the white council overthrow him, but he really only pretnded to fly really he wanted to move to mordor without arousing suspision as to why. He knew that the ring was found but didnt want anyone else to find out!
Also where do u get 13 in the council from?

Thôl

[Calimehtar]

Sorry, I accidently got the Council of Thirteen from a different book and thought it was from this. HAHA! I've been saying the Council of Thirteen referring to all the wizards for almost two yrs. (my mistake) And thanks for the info. I was kind of thinking that was Sauron.

[Maeglin]

If you want to know more about the Necromancer, there was a long discussion about it recently, go here to read it.

www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5698 (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5698)

[Calimehtar]

Thanks, I am going to read it right now.

[Calimehtar]

Another question... when the Necromancer (aka Sauron) left Mirkwood did he have a body or form... or was he still formless? (Am I making sense?) OK, I think in the movie (yeah, the movie, though I think it'll be correct with the book) that when the ring was taken from Sauron, he didn't have a form or body or anything. So....

Question 1: (If the formless thing was right) What was Sauron? Since he wasn't a solid body anymore.

Question 2: When he left Mirkwood was he able to take shape?

also, i was reading on the encyclopedia of arda that Sauron could become a vampire and a wolf... is that in The Silmarillion or what book?

[Maeglin]

No problem Bilbosbane, I don't mind answering them.

1. Sauron was simply a spirit when he left Mirkwood, he could not take shape, he did not have anywhere near enough power, but he sent his Nazgul to fortify Barad-dur and Minas Morgul.

oh that was the answer to questions 1 and 2

3. Yes Sauron used to be able to turn into a a wolf, but I don't know about the vampire part, but since he did not have a body he could not do that in the Lord of the Rings, but yes it is all in the Silmarillion, he fought with another dog in that and was defeated and went running away.

oh and by the way, Welcome to the Forum.:)

[Calimehtar]

In the Encyclopedia of Arda it said that he became a vampire... not the vampire where you suck blood and turn into a bat. This said he was in a human form but had wings and could fly.

Yeah, I subscribed to the forum a few months ago but didnt ever read on it or post. Now, I'm re-reading all of Tolkiens stuff. I read The Hobbit last week and now I am on Chapter 7 of The Fellowship of the Ring.

[Maeglin]

hmmm well if it said it then I am not going to disagree that he could turn into a vampire, but I don't necessarily agree either, I'll just leave it alone, but I do know that Sauron could take several different forms, but I don't think anyone knows what his true physical form is, though a vampire form is not too far-fetched or out of the question.

[Courtney]

hmmm... I didn't know there were vampires in Middle Earth??? :confused:

[Mithlond]

Melkor created all sorts of evil creatures, vampires included.
Read the Silmarillion for further details, though they are not refered too much at all.

[Celebthôl]

first of all the god was called Huan,
second of all yes Sauron did turn into a vampire, he did this to escape being killed by Huan, and there was another vampire i forget its name i think it was a she and i was Saurons messenger

Thôl

[Arvedui]

From The Silmarillion; Of Beren and Lúthien:
Therefore he [Sauron] took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.
So great was the horror of his approach that Huan leaped aside. Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbeled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him. Then Huan sprang. There befell the battle of Huan and Wolf-Sauron, and the howls and baying echoed in the hills, and the watchers on the walls of Ered Wethrin across the Valley heard it from afar and were dismayed.
But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. The Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'
Then Sauron yilded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Taur-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.

Sorry, long quote, but there it is: A wolf, a serpent, a vampire.

The second vampire is Thuringwthil. It is actually a bat, wont to fly in vampire's form. Saurons messenger.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
first of all the god was called Huan,


Huan is not a god,but a hound of Valinor.:)

[tom bombadil]

I believe he meant DOG, not "god" :) and yes, Huan is not a mere dog, he is a hound! :) The Valar gave him the ability to speak, but for only three times before dying...

[Celebthôl]

yes i did mean dog sorry, and that speeking 3 times things was that like 3 words or three different conversations?

Thôl

[Maeglin]

None of them were conversations, nor were they just words. They were phrases or statements giving wisdom/advice.

[Kevin]

Does anyone have any more info on this powerful magician, other than what is written about him in The Hobbit? He sounds like an intriguing figure, especially how Ganfalf tells the Dwarves to avoid being anywhere near the shadow of his tower. Was he a member of Gandalfs/Sarumans Order?

[FoolOfATook]

Welcome to the forum, Kevin. The Necromancer is none other than the Enemy himself, Sauron. An intriguing figure indeed. ;)

[Kahmûl]

Sauron is the Necromancer and his tower is Dol Guldor.

[Ithrynluin]

Yes, you could say that he was of Saruman's/Gandalf's order since he was a Maia (an "angelic" being). But he was not of the order of Wizards, to which Saruman and Gandalf belonged.
I would suggest reading The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, if yoz haven't done so already. Much information about this "intriguing figure" as you call him (and I agree), can be found there.:)

[Lasgalen]

The book "Unfinished Tales" also has a section on the Istari.

-Lasgalen

[Mischievious Merry]

Kevin that was a good question.I always wondered who Necromancer was. :rolleyes: Now I know.;)
Mischievious Merry

[samjor]

Was the Necromancer from the hobbit that lived in Mirkwood Sauron?

Sorry about all these questions.

Thank - You.

[GuardianRanger]

I believe that is correct, though I don't have my references in front of me.

[BlackCaptain]

Yes. Dol Goldur in southern Mirkwood was where Sauron regained most of his former power lost when he was defeated at the Siege of Barad-Dûr. The White Council (consisting of the Istari, and Elven Kings) drove the 'Necromancer', who was origionaly believed to just be a Nazgûl, from Dol Goldur. From there he went into Mordor and took up his throne again in the Dark Tower of Barad-Dûr.

[samjor]

Can u recommend any further reading that holds this information?

[Melko Belcha]

Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in The Silmarillion.

[Gil-Galad]

Well,you'd better read The Silmarillion,then Unfinished Tales,then The Books of Lost Tales..................That will provide enough cognition about Tolkien's world!Trsut me!:cool:

[BlackCaptain]

I have still to read a quarter of The Silmarillion, All of Unfinished Tales, the rest of HoME, 3/4 of Letters of JRR Tolkien, and any other extra books before ive read everything. Then i'll start all over!

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by MorgulKing
I have still to read a quarter of The Silmarillion, All of Unfinished Tales, the rest of HoME, 3/4 of Letters of JRR Tolkien, and any other extra books before ive read everything. Then i'll start all over!
.....and over and over and over and over...........:p ;)

[Turin]

Do any of you find the HoME series hard to read?