Cloning

[Legolam]

Since I seem to be on a roll today with GOP topics, here's a new one.

Recently, Severino Antinori and the Raelian cult have both claimed to have cloned humans successfully. This has raised many questions about the whole existence of this kind of technology. Ever since Dolly the Sheep was cloned here in Edinburgh in 1998, controversy has raged about human, animal and cell cloning.

Where should the line be drawn? For example, is it OK to use human embyronic stem cells to further medical research into, for example, tissue transplantation. The current law here in Britain is that you can, so long as the embryos are destroyed after 14 days.

Is it OK to clone animals? What about humans? And do you think that these maaverick scientists have actually managed it successfully?

Here's the BBC article on Dr Antinori:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2681379.stm

[reem]

cloning is a big topic these days. many people are against it because they feel that cloning people is unethical and not natural. i remember when cloning first began, scientists said that human clones would never be attepmted. cloning would only be used for medical research and achieving medical advancements.
since the cloning of Dolly went pretty well with no problems, i think that the human clones (most likely) will come out fine. but we can never know untill we see the results ourselves.
but whatever the outcome, i don't think that cloning people should be permitted. even if it does help infertile couples.
who knows what could happen. maybe in future years a new kind of dangerous disease or social crisis will arise from cloning.
reem

[Eriol]

There are a few questions that must be answered in this and in other threads you opened recently, Legolam. Without an answer you will be arguing in circles.

1) What is a human being? What characteristic gives a being its 'humanness'? Is it the possession of a soul? 46 chromosomes? Belonging to the species Homo sapiens? Self-conscience and intelligence?

2) What can ethically be done to an innocent human being against his wishes, or unbeknownst to him?

The first question is the root of all controversies, and I won't address it right now. But for the second, I think the answer is clear: nothing. Nothing can be done to an innocent human being against his wishes in the realm of ethics. The freedom of each and everyone is the cornerstone of ethics. Retribution and punishment is arguable, but coercion and violence against the innocent is not.

More closely related to the topic at hand, for each successful animal clone about 100 embryos are sacrificed. Would it be OK if 100 human embryos were sacrificed to attain one viable clone?

I think not.

And there is the question of 'why?'. To develop research? But why do we develop research in this area? To save human lives. So is it reasonable to sacrifice human lives (there, now you see that I consider embryos to be human, and alive) to save human lives? To kill with certainty in order to save only probably?

I think adult stem cells can be used for that goal without a great loss in performance, and what is more important, without any loss of lives.

WARNING: speculative psychology follows...

But I think the real reason behind the cloning industry (if it is not yet an industry, it soon will be) is to play God. We have researchers that openly deny that God is relevant (or exists) to the subject trying to replicate humans. Why? If it is out of a devotion for science, without regard for ethics, then they are simply misguided. But the Italian you mentioned (and obviously the sect also) is not doing this out of devotion for science. They are doing it because it is in their power. They don't stop to think whether they should do what they can do. They don't think they are bound by any rules, ethical or otherwise.

They probably are fans of Nietzsche and his Superman...

[FoolOfATook]

Cloning is bad- didn't people learn that from Star Wars Episode Two? ;)

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Eriol
But the Italian you mentioned (and obviously the sect also) is not doing this out of devotion for science. They are doing it because it is in their power. They don't stop to think whether they should do what they can do. They don't think they are bound by any rules, ethical or otherwise.

Kind of like the quote that Jeff Goldblum says in Jurassic Park "They were so preoccupied with whether or not they could clone the didn't stop to think whether or not they should"

The whole soul thing from a biblical standpoint is mute IMO, the fact that (if it's true) humans can be cloned shows that there is no such thing as some ethereal immortal substance to man.

I agree with you that the issue is playing God and messing with the natural order of things. God created man in His image. Man has taken that and tried to replicate it and reduce the wonder of life to a test tube experiment with man at the helm making the decisions. Dangerous ground in my opinion.

[Legolam]

OK, I'm going to weigh in with my views on this topic. As many of you know, I'm a medical student doing a scientist's course, so obviously that affects my views (just so you know where I'm coming from on this).

Firstly, I don't like the idea of human cloning. I'm not entirely sure why - I'm not religious and, on paper, it would solve a lot of medical questions. However, if any of you have read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley, you'll know what I mean when I say that it's just a scary idea. Human cloning opens up a whole new way of engineering people into classes, which I don't like.

Furthermore, Dolly the sheep was NOT made without many many problems. I have a friend that works with stem cells and she is having huge problems just growing them, let alone making them into anything. Even the success rate in mice for inserting genes (not cloning, just inserting a gene) is less than 1%. I don't understand how Dr Antinori and the Raelian's could do it right first time. It's just not scientifically possible. Without even arguing whether we should do it or not, we shouldn't even try before the technique is perfected in animals.

Secondly, on the issue of stem cell research. I believe this is a different issue. As I said before, I have a friend who's doing really important research into the possibility of using stem cells to grow organs and that seems to be a good use of science to me. Adult stem cells can be used, but they're not as good as embryonic stem cells.

[reem]

Originally posted by Thorin
The whole soul thing from a biblical standpoint is mute IMO, the fact that (if it's true) humans can be cloned shows that there is no such thing as some ethereal immortal substance to man.

i don't really agree with this statement. every living thig is alive because it basically has a soul. we don't know how they get them, we don't know how they form, nor do we exactly know what happens to animal 'souls' when they die. (though i'm sure there is no such thing as doggy heaven:p).
human beings as well as everything else on the face of this planet and in this universe has much more to it that meets the eye. i just don't think that it is right for us to say that cloning prooves anything about the existance of God or souls or whatever came in the Bible and the other holy books. in fact, i feel that every major break-through should contribute and strengthen our belief in God. the world is too amazing a place to have just popped up out of the blue by itself. butlet's not turn this into a religious discussion.
reem

[Thorin]

Originally posted by reem
Every living thing is alive because it basically has a soul. We don't know how they get them, we don't know how they form, nor do we exactly know what happens to animal 'souls' when they die. (though i'm sure there is no such thing as doggy heaven:p).

Actually, yes we do. The Bible makes it pretty plain that God formed man out of the dust of the earth, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. Ezekiel 28:20 says that the "soul that sinneth shall die". Simply because in the Bible, the "soul" was a living being, not an ethereal spirit floating around consciously.

If man can be created, that means that there is no such thing as a living soul that gives life. The only way to get around that is that God puts a living soul into the clone. Hence, God supports cloning. You really don't believe that, do you?

Originally posted by reem
I just don't think that it is right for us to say that cloning prooves anything about the existance of God or souls or whatever came in the Bible and the other holy books.

I just did. It is not about proving the existence of God. It is dispelling this "do clones have souls" argument that some people try to use to go against cloning.

[DGoeij]

I don't think my knowledge of biology and the idea of souls get along fine. I mean, man and woman have sex, man and woman have baby. Does baby have soul? Where did it came from? Threads of soul from his mom and dad, or a brand new one, that came from where?
It gets even more messy when I open up my old bio-chemistry books, with DNA, stem-cells and all the complicated stuff involved in making me able to visit this Forum in the first place. But the subject was cloning.

I really doubt if human cloning is possible as yet. Considering the amount of miscarriages and two-headed, skin-less lambs that went before the famous Dolly. It's not that easy, that much is certain.
Like Thorin said, by the time it may be really possible should we do it? I don't really know what for. It's not like the Wrights brothers, who made an aereoplane, just to prove it was possible. Are we making humans to do all the mucky jobs? To test new inventions, from medication to the new generation of air-bags? Are they going to like it?

[reem]

well i suppose there is only one way to find out. people will make clones no matter what anyone says and then (if we're still alive) we can see for ourselves what the outcome is.
and Thorin, please excuse my ignorance, but i've never read the bible nor am i a christian. so i wouldn't really connect with your quotes.
reem

[Gloer]

Actually there are several people I know that have clones.
Identical twins you see.

They are quite normal human beings.
And they are all different, unique and separate.

I don't see any point in the debate over the issue. It simply is not possible to make a copy. What is the big deal? Nature has been cloning us for years.

[FREEDOM!]

Cloning is a bad idea!

[Gloer]

Freedom says cloning is a bad idea.

Do you mean bad as being evil and unethical?
Or do you mean bad as being an act that has no beneficial outcome, waste of time, uneconomical (hard to define this) regardless of ethics (unless one thinks waste of time and money is the only truely unethical act)?

I myself agree that cloning is bad idea if one thinks it is a good idea how to reproduce. It simply is most uneconomical and "sinful" compared to the old fashioned way.

And because people are by nature good (= lazy and smart) this cloning method will never get anywhere. Only those few "evil" people (active and stupid) will waste money on this while we get a good laugh.

[reem]

i don't thing that twins can be concidered cloning...or at least not the cloning we have in mind for this thread:p
but to say whether cloning is 'good' or 'bad' is basically just a value judgement and so it's not a realy anwer.
reem

[FREEDOM!]

Ok, God made each and everyone of us unique, so cloning would make others like us!

[Gloer]

A clone is a unique individual.

it is dangerous and criminal een to consider otherwise.
And even worse: it is a mistake.

[Legolam]

I'm bringing this to the top since there's been a lot of action in the abortion thread recently and this topic's kinda related.

Enjoy.

[Mahal]

I think clonig is a bad idea if we put our minds into other medical stuff(I dont now much of it :D ) we could maybe accomplish much more. Cloning is still in its infant stage and to develop it thouroughly(how do you write that) it will cost many man-hours that could better be spend elsewhere. Why do you need an Identical copy of you.

[Lúthien Séregon]

I'm not keen on cloning to be honest...

I think it's immoral to clone either animals or humans. Animals have a right to live without being experimented on in such a manner. Cloning has no real benefits for people or other animals, it really is just "playing God".

[reem]

i have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as 'playing God'. to try and 'play God' is impossible. to accuse someone of 'playing God' is to say that that person has God's ability and that a load of peep!
alot of people said that wanting to go to the moon and bothering with space travel was a stupid and wasteful idea, but look at us now. alot of good things came out of it. maybe this cloning thing will do some good.
ofcourse, chances are that things may go horribly wrong and a monstrous psychotic race may imerge...but so what! it's gonna happen anyway!
but yes, cloning people is indeed an immoral thing. it is unnatural and twisted, but that doesn't stop the possibility of it yielding some good.
anyhow, the point is that no matter what we think it won't make a difference because cloning will still take place whether we like it or not.
reem

[Legolam]

My first post:
Where should the line be drawn? For example, is it OK to use human embyronic stem cells to further medical research into, for example, tissue transplantation. The current law here in Britain is that you can, so long as the embryos are destroyed after 14 days.

Is it OK to clone animals? What about humans? And do you think that these maaverick scientists have actually managed it successfully?
Discuss

[reem]

Originally posted by Legolam
My first post:
Discuss

to your first question, Legolam, i would say that IMO it's ok.
to the other questions, i think that cloning people isn't such a god idea. cloning animals is not as bad but isn't really that good either, and i think that if the scientists haven't figured it out by noe, they will soon enough.
reem

[Feanorian]

The reason I do not like cloning has been stated earlier on in the thread before you bumped it up Legolam. The amount of embryos it takes to create one clone (disformed, mutalated, or perfect) is just too many to waste on a failed clone attempt. I would like to see a successful clone, not just hear about one. Ethically cloning is wrong. Cloning takes one thing and tries to re-create it perfectly with large toy companies and their hottest products thats ok but with human beings?? Who knows what it would turn into in 50 or 100 years.

[Idril]

My main comcern is: who's going to own this technology? The highest bidder tends not to have altruistic reasons for doing so, but commercial.

All the arguments in support of genetic modification and cloning leans heavily in the direction of a perfect society, no illnesses, no hunger etc. Human greed and lust for power has not been factored into this picture of idealism.

How much is this going to cost? Who's going to pay for it? Who's going to control it? The 3rd world countries, whose populations are starving aren't going to, nor the ordinary man in the street, whose child has a life threatening genetic illness.

The whole concept of genetic profiling is already opening a can of worms. People with a predisposition to heart disease, cancer and other serious illnesses, would not be able to get insurance, not be able to get a mortgage, not get a job, some may even have their personal liberties curtailed because they may be inclined to kill someone.

Society will be split into 2, whose who have and can afford and those who don't have and can't afford. Much as it is today I guess, but much worse.

[HelplessModAddi]

The process of cloning could be beneficial, it could be a waste of time, it could be a brave new ethical frontier, it could be immoral and sinful, it could be dumb and it could be smart. But when all is said and done, the important thing is that everyone remembers that the actual CLONE would be a UNIQUE HUMAN BEING and needs to be treated as such.

P.S. Freedom appears to be enslaved to his ideas

[reem]

Originally posted by HelplessModAddi
The process of cloning could be beneficial, it could be a waste of time, it could be a brave new ethical frontier, it could be immoral and sinful, it could be dumb and it could be smart. But when all is said and done, the important thing is that everyone remembers that the actual CLONE would be a UNIQUE HUMAN BEING and needs to be treated as such.


ofcourse they should be treated as humans...they are after all people with feelings...or would be, if scientists actually get successful results.
reem