Invisibility and the Ring!

[Maedhros]

I have always wondered about the One Ring and the fact that it could made a Human or a Hobbit "invisible". How could a ring do such a thing? Would an elf be rendered invisible too?
Let us look at Sauron:
He's an ëalar
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, S[indarin] fae). ëala 'being'.
Sauron decided to clothe himself, he became incarnated himself, and the longer a spirit uses a hröa, it becomes more depended on it.
Because Sauron was a maia, (one of the most powerful), when he made his Ring, he had the ability, if you will, to control his spirit and hröa more than an elf or a man, and that is why he wouldn't become "invisible" when he put it on.
Let's take a look at the Children of Ilúvatar:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
The nature of an Elvish fëa was to endure the world to the end, and an Elvish hroa was also longeval by nature; so that an Elvish fëa finding that its hroa endured with it, supporting its indwelling and remaining unwearied in bodily delight, would have increased and more lasting joy
Men on the other hand, had another path. Their fëar were not meant to endure the lenght of Arda, so after a while, when their bodies were slained, they left Arda. Also Men had less control over their hröa than an elf would.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were then less different from the bodies of Men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete.
This command was, nonetheless, at all times greater than it has ever been among Men. From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The fëar of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fëar were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far excelled the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men.
Ok, so now we know the characteristics of the fëar and hröar on Ainur, Elves and Men. Let's see the "invisible" part of it.
From LOTR: A Knife in the Dark
Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath their black wrappings. There were five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing. In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel. Their eyes fell on him and pierced him, as they rushed towards him. Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the figures halted. The third was taller than the others: his hair was long and gleaming and on his helm was a crown. In one hand he held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both the knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light. He sprang forward and bore down on Frodo.
Notice that when Frodo puts the Ring on, he is "transported" to the spirit world, he can see the fëar of the Nazgûl. It is my belief that because Frodo is a hobbit, he has not the control over his hröa as an elf or a maia would, and therefore he is unable to control the Ring and therefore he became "invisible". This applies to Men too because Hobbits are related to Men.
My guess is that an experienced elf or a Maia could wield the Ring without becoming "invisible".

[Maedhros]

What about the effects of the Ring on the fëar and hröar of a Men?
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless.
The ring grants you more life, but does it? The ring prolongs the endurance of the hröa but it's not a good thing for a Men or Hobbit because they become trapped by it, and in time they begin to feel the effects of it like Bilbo and Gollum.
From LOTR:Many Meetings
'I am old, Gandalf. I don’t look it, but I am beginning to feel it in my heart of hearts. Well-preserved indeed!’ he snorted. ‘Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can’t be right. I need a change, or something.’
My conclusion is that the Rings grants you in a certain way, the scenario planted of what would happen if a Men was granted immortality of the hröa, (up to a certain point). Something that goes against the will of Ilúvatar ends bad. The wearer would not be blessed but cursed.
From LOTR: A Shadow of the Past
‘In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.
‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’
Looking at that quote, I would say that if an Elf would put on the One Ring, it would not become invisible, as a mortal would. As I have said before, I think it has to do with the fact that Elves had a better mastery of their hröa than a mortal would.

[Maedhros]

If the 3 Rings of the Elves, were considered great, then if an elf would wear them, i believe that it would not make them invisible, partly because of what i have been saying in a recent posts that the Elves have more natural control over their hröar than Mortals do.
Now, a question comes to my mind, if the 3 Rings made by the Elves (Celebrimbor) were considered to be great rings, and they made you fade too, does that means that if a Mortal were to use them, would they too in the end fade and suffer the same fate as would a mortal using the One Ring?
Che pensi tu?

[gate7ole]

LOTR: Shadows of the Past
He knows that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life. He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil.
This simple quote suggests that any Great Ring can give long life. Even the Three, though Sméagol’s ring couldn’t be one of them, since he became evil.
But then again, it is somewhere told that the Elven-Rings were different from the other Great-Rings, because the Elves didn’t want long life or power. Also, why should they import such an ability to their rings, which was useless to them (being immortal)? Well, maybe they didn’t demand such abilities, but the rings were initially filled with them.
Either way, I think that the above quote implies that the Three turned the bearer invisible and I go for it. Besides, the Rings themselves could turn invisible when worn by the Elves.
Now does this mean that they cause the bearer to fade? From the quote we get that the Three didn’t endure evil. But was the fading an evil action? I don’t think so. It was the result of a physical phenomenon: the entrapment of fëa. So, the Three would “let” the fading procedure, since it was not their decision.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I am going to attempt this... forgive me if I make no sense. This talk is completely new to me. :)

Maedhros and gate7ole, all you say makes complete sense to me as I have not had a chance to read any of this for myself. I am unable to form any opinions as of yet. However, I'll give it a go. :D

I would venture to say that a mortal wearing an Elven Ring would fade simply because a mortal does not have as good of a grasp on his fea as does an Elf. A mortal who ventures to wear such a thing seems to me to be messing with his fea as his hroa would continue to exist. It seems to make sense. All been said before. :p Ah well!

[Maedhros]

Either way, I think that the above quote implies that the Three turned the bearer invisible and I go for it. Besides, the Rings themselves could turn invisible when worn by the Elves.
Unfortunately that is not the case, The Three rings did not confer invisibility. From the Letters of JRRT: # 131
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

[gate7ole]

OK, this letter rejects the possibility that the Three turned the bearer invisible. But I had in mind that this exact fact causes the fading of the bearer. That he gradually leaves the material world and enters the world of spirits. Without invisibility, the bearer could not prolong his life and be drained.
But wasn’t the chief ability of the Three to postpone the decays of time and weariness of earth? This seems like the ability of the other Great Rings, though their target was the bearer and not the environment. Taking this into assumption, the Three might not have any effect on the bearer.
I don’t know I’m a bit confused. A more experienced person should clarify the things.

[Maedhros]

I think that JRRT meant that if a mortal would wear the 3 Elven Rings, it will not make the wearer invisible, but if he wore it continually over a long period of time, the wearer would begin to fade and I think that he/she would become invisible.
It is unnatural for a mortal for his hröa to resist that long a time anyway.

[Ithrynluin]

Something that goes against the will of Ilúvatar ends bad. The wearer would not be blessed but cursed.


A bit off topic but still worth the mention... A mortal who defies the course of time by wearing a Great Ring, and refuses to give up his/her hröa in due time (= die of old age) -----> so this goes against the will of Eru.

What about the fact that the 3 Rings of the Elves unnaturally postoponed the decays of time and "prolonged the life" of a certain place, so to speak (e.g.: Lórien).
Was that a violation against Eru also? In the Letters, Tolkien hints that it was. But I would like to elaborate on this topic and get to the bottom of why EXACTLY was the usage of the Three wrong.
Are the creators of these rings (Celebrimbor and the Mirdain) and the bearers who used them (Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Cirdan, Gandalf, Elrond) guilty of defying the will of Eru in some sense?

[Maedhros]

Was that a violation against Eru also? In the Letters, Tolkien hints that it was. But I would like to elaborate on this topic and get to the bottom of why EXACTLY was the usage of the Three wrong.
It was wrong, in the same way that the Númenóreans wanted to have eternal life. They wanted to have the best of both worlds.
The Elves of Eregion wanted to have the liberty they possesed in ME, all the while retaining the beauty and grandeur of Aman. That is why it was wrong.

[Nenya Evenstar]

I do not see anything wrong with wanting to retain beauty. I would say that what was wrong was that the Elves were trying to affect the Will of Eru by prolonging the decay of time. I can see how this would be wrong. Prolonging the decay of time is going against the Will of Eru for that certain thing that is being prolonged.

[Ithrynluin]

So the smiths of Eregion shouldn't have made the Rings in the first place. It was wrong.
But were those who used them wrong also. Should they only have kept them and never use them?

[gate7ole]

by Maedhros
I think that JRRT meant that if a mortal would wear the 3 Elven Rings, it will not make the wearer invisible, but if he wore it continually over a long period of time, the wearer would begin to fade and I think that he/she would become invisible.
It is unnatural for a mortal for his hröa to resist that long a time anyway.
But if the Three didn’t confer invisibility, then how could this fading be explained (in a more scientific way)? The fading of the other Great Rings, is the result of prolonged preservation of the hröa, while the fëa feels trapped inside it. Does this also apply to the Three? Did they preserve the hröa? My personal idea is that they did not. They, too, had the same ability as the other Rings, which is the preservation of life, but the Three targeted the environment while the others the bearer. At least that is how I understand it. Why should the Elves care about preserving their hröa, since they already had such ability?

[Maedhros]

But if the Three didn’t confer invisibility, then how could this fading be explained (in a more scientific way)?
Perhaps by the fact that these rings were created using a more refined technique than that of the Original rings, they weren't created with that purpouse but nevertheless that facet of it's making is part of it's craft.

[Nóm]

The Ring wearer's body doesn't seem to be completely going anywhere (can be wrestled with, casts shadows), but it is entirely disapearing from sight. The first thing that must happen in order that something can be seen is that light must reflect off of it. I guess then that either light would pass through the body of the ring wearer or be absorded by the body. If the light passed through, the ring wearer wouldn't cast a shadow- but it does cast a shadow.

So, maybe it is absorbing the light.
If being half way into the spirit world were enough to cause the body to absorb light, or become invisible, then no one would have been able to see Glorfindel - or any other who had been to the blessed realm and was existing in both worlds at once.

Maybe the evil of Sauron was actually swallowing the light?

That is what I think. So, I think an elf would have been invisible too.

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Nóm
The Ring wearer's body doesn't seem to be completely going anywhere (can be wrestled with, casts shadows), but it is entirely disapearing from sight. The first thing that must happen in order that something can be seen is that light must reflect off of it. I guess then that either light would pass through the body of the ring wearer or be absorded by the body. If the light passed through, the ring wearer wouldn't cast a shadow- but it does cast a shadow.

So, maybe it is absorbing the light.
If being half way into the spirit world were enough to cause the body to absorb light, or become invisible, then no one would have been able to see Glorfindel - or any other who had been to the blessed realm and was existing in both worlds at once.

Maybe the evil of Sauron was actually swallowing the light?

That is what I think. So, I think an elf would have been invisible too.

I would like to speak a little scientifically here. A thing cannot become invisible by absorbing the light, because it then just becomes a black figure. Invisible can one be only if the light passes through the body. Scientifically it is not (yet) possible for a solid structure, but taking into account the density of molecules, I wouldn't be surprised if such a technology was found.

As for the relation with Aman, I don't see the point. Did they actually live in both worlds? Could you provide a quote, or is it yur understanding? And which were the two worlds? I may have missed something, but the elves did not have any abilities of seeing spirits, not even in Aman.

[Nóm]

Originally posted by gate7ole
As for the relation with Aman, I don't see the point. Did they actually live in both worlds? Could you provide a quote, or is it yur understanding? And which were the two worlds? I may have missed something, but the elves did not have any abilities of seeing spirits, not even in Aman.
They actually lived in both worlds at once.

From FotR: Many Meetings
`Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm
live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn...
That is Gandalf talking to Frodo. Seems clear (unless I miss something) that those who had lived in Aman were in both (the physical and spiritual) worlds at once.

So gate7ole, if evil could not have swallowed the light without leaving a visible blackness, how then did a body that was physically there go unseen?
Or, if the light passed through the body, how did it cast a shadow?

Maybe the evil of the Ring can not swallow light, maybe it puts a force around the wearer that rejects light. So the light is not reflecting off of the wearer, but off of the atmosphere about it.

[gate7ole]

To tell you the truth Nóm, I had never paid attention to this detail. Thanks.
Although I don't seem to understand clearly how they could live in both worlds, and especially why only the Elves of Aman did so and continued to do so even at ME, it seems to be a big hint for the invisibility of the Rings.
Right now, I can't say anything that won't sound stupid. I must think these matters better. But I have a hunch that Tolkien made a "scientific" mistake with his invisibility issue. That it cannot stand with the laws of physics.

[Maedhros]

Interesting point that you brought up Nóm. In order for a body to cast a shadow it either must reflect or absorb the light, if the bearer is 100% invisible then he must not cast a shadow, however, if he's mostly invisible but not 100% he should cast a shadow.

[Nóm]

It's time to mention another thing that I had thought in the past, before I decided that the evil was somehow taking in and destroying the light. That is, that the light actually passes into the wearer of the Ring, but is contained therein, not passing out the other side, this would cause a shadow. Taking the light in and holding it, rather than the light bouncing off of the surface - would cause the body to be invisble.

My idea for why/how this happend was that the light seeking to counter the evil darkness of Sauron/Ring would penetrate into the wearer of the ring. This would be further backed, if we could know for sure that Frodo or any ring wearer looked like a white figure within the shadow world, as did Glorfindel.

The possible flaw in this theory becomes apparant when we look at the long term effects of the Ring... Nay, I thought there was a specific flaw in this, but thinking more about it just now I see that it was not a flaw.

Because I thought I found a major flaw, I had concluded that the light isn't entering the body to counter evil, but rather that evil is devouring the light. This would (though maybe not consistent with the laws of physics as we know them) be consistent with the eventual fading of the ring wearer. I see now that so might the theory of the body taking in and holding the light.

The light may be contained within the body for a reason other than I gave (that is, to counter evil) but I think there is a nice chance the the light is in fact contained.

Another thing to keep to mind is that sight is still not completely understood. However, whatever causes the wearer to become invisble - it must involve the way the body (or atmosphere about the body) interacts with light.

[Rúmil]

I would like first to come back to an earlier point: gate7ole said:Why should the Elves care about preserving their hröa, since they already had such ability? actually, the Elves age. They age along with Arda, so an Elf born in the Years of the Trees would be an old man in the days of the Last Battle; already at the time of the War of the Ring, Círdan had a grey beard. The also become "weary", and fade: their hröa decays with time, just like ours, but much, much slower, because their fëa does not "seek elsewhither". So the Three would have a purposeful and basic function of prolonging the hröa.

As for the invisiblity, I don't know how it works: it is magic, intended to be beyond our comprehension. it is a sort of "miracle". Do you ask how a miracle "works"?

It is the unnaturalness of the process, I think, that causes the user to fade: the "seeking elsewhither" is contraried by the magic, causing both body and mind to suffer: the situation is about the same as that described in Home X, Myths transformed: "What would happen to a mortal in Aman?".

[Maedhros]

Ahoy, the Loremaster of Tirion is amongst us.:)

It is the unnaturalness of the process, I think, that causes the user to fade: the "seeking elsewhither" is contraried by the magic, causing both body and mind to suffer: the situation is about the same as that described in Home X, Myths transformed: "What would happen to a mortal in Aman?".
Yes, specially if the fëar of men while wishing to leave Arda, was constrained by it's hröa and then all hell would break loose. Suffering of the individual.

[Inderjit S]

Wasn't Feanor the loremaster of Tirion? :D

Old Rumil was pushed aside for new blood, it seems.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Rúmil
actually, the Elves age. They age along with Arda, so an Elf born in the Years of the Trees would be an old man in the days of the Last Battle; already at the time of the War of the Ring, Círdan had a grey beard. The also become "weary", and fade: their hröa decays with time, just like ours, but much, much slower, because their fëa does not "seek elsewhither". So the Three would have a purposeful and basic function of prolonging the hröa.


But do they actually die because of old age? I'm thinking "no". Men wanted immortality, so that's why their rings have this life prolonging feature. I really can't picture Elves wanting to postpone any wrinkles and such through the use of rings. Therefore I must agree with gate7ole that the Three do not affect the hroa.
They become weary, but didn't that become the destiny only of those Elves that decided to remain in Middle Earth after the 4th Age? Could an elf actually die of old age in Aman? Is this aging of the hroa a finite process? When does it stop then? It must be finite, since the Elves are "immortal" ("unless one weary of ten thousand centuries").

*sigh* So many questions!

[Mirabella]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It was wrong, in the same way that the Númenóreans wanted to have eternal life. They wanted to have the best of both worlds.
The Elves of Eregion wanted to have the liberty they possesed in ME, all the while retaining the beauty and grandeur of Aman. That is why it was wrong.

I have a question. If it was wrong for the Three to have been made and used, why were their Bearers allowed to bring them back to Aman?

[Maedhros]

Because they were mere trinkets by then. They had no power whatsoever.

[Mirabella]

Yes...I know the Three faded or lost their power after the One was destroyed. Yet if their very forging was an act of rebellion against the will of Iluvatar, it strikes me as strange that they would be allowed within Aman, powerless or no.

[Rúmil]

It was a mild sort of rebellion anyway; not nearly as serious as rebelling against the authority of the Valar at Araman. And look at this passage in Lotr, the Mirror of Galadriel:The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now. The powerless Three, by the end of the War of the Ring, were no longer, IMO, a reminder of the ill-will of the Noldor but, on the contrary, of the glorious and heroic sacrifice they underwent for the good of Middle-Earth.



PS:Wasn't Feanor the loremaster of Tirion?
Old Rumil was pushed aside for new blood, it seems. Haha! and they still think it was Morgoth who counselled Fëanor to leave Aman for Middle-earth! who's the greatest loremaster in Aman now that that little brat is locked up in the Halls of Awaiting, heh?

[Isthir]

Through all that I have read here I have seen a multitude of knowledge, but have noticed a simple fact has been overlooked. This fact resides in the very beginnings of the Rings. Let me show it to you, from the Silmarillion:

Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron hand never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.
Through all my studies I have found the Lore of the Rings of Power to hold my greatest interest, and therefore I have taken much thought into them. On the subject at hand I hold many thoughts and ideas, which I shall share gladly with you all.

Of the Invisibility of the Rings of Power

¤ Sauron only effected the Three by the lore of craft that he taught to the Mírdain, for only Celebrimbor forged the Three. As well, the Three never granted the curse of invisibility to their wearer, though they themselves were at times invisible upon the fingers that they rested. From this it can be guessed that the power of invisibility was granted only through the workings of Sauron’s hands.

~ Sauron had come to the Elves of Eregion in guise as Annatar, meaning Lord of Gifts, and taught them of the crafting of rings, seeking to enslave all the races on earth, especially those of the Firstborn. Of the many Elven-rings only eighteen are said to be Great. Each ring that Sauron helped in crafting were sixteen, and each held the curse of invisibility.

And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them

¤ As for the process that the other sixteen used to take their wearer to the ‘wraith-world’, I must agree with the Lore Master of Tirion. For the process is that of magic, and as I believe wrought with deceit and evil, and we are not meant to fully understand it from any form of view, be it scientific or not. However, I must admit also that the roles of fëar and hröar played into the equation. This is proven to me also in the Silmarillion:


…And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding…Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever.

This would cause me to come to belief that the Dwarves are a hybrid between the desires of the Elven fëar and hröar and that of Men as well. If this is true in a sense it would explain how the Dwarves were susceptible to the Rings, but used them for nothing besides the gathering of wealth, as it is said, again, in the Silmarillion:


The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth…



- Isthir Ruthdin Darquae