JRR Tolkien [Archive] - THE TOLKIEN FORUM

joxy

01-24-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Mischievious Merry
Would someone tell me a bit about Tolkien?
His name was John Ronald Reuel and he was a professor at Oxford University from 1925 to 1959.
He did NOT write "This my friend is a pint"; that is a silly bit of script invented by Mr P Jackson and his family, and is nothing like as good as anything JRRT ever wrote.
It's great that you want to know about him, and I hope you will find some books about him, and get a lot of information from the areas of this forum that deal with him and his books, rather than here, where the topic is Mr Jackson's film "vision" of the books.

Talimon

01-24-2003, 07:06 PM

For crying out loud, joxy.... the guy was just asking for some information about Tolkien, not for a whole tirade against PJ. If you are planning on bashing PJ in each and every one of your posts, you might as well make it your signature. It will save you the time of writing it and me the time of reading it. :)

Would someone tell me abit about Tolkien? Like what his full name is?That sorta stuff. I know very little about LotR's,but I know even LESS about Tolkien. (except that he ws one of the greatest authors)So plz help me out.
Mischievious Merry

Here are a few resources you might find interesting. Some of the specifics are arguable, but the basics are there:

http://tolkien.slimy.com/

http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~bouvin/tolkienfaq.html

If you'd like to read into more specifics, you should browse the appropriate sections of this forum and ask questions there. theonering.net has a nice Q & A section if you are looking for an overview of some of the "finer" sections of Tolkien:

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/index.html

Finally, there are a plethora of books that you can find at book-stores, not to mention online retailers such as amazon.com.

Ithrynluin

01-24-2003, 07:08 PM

There was a thread about this not long ago...

Anyway it's John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.

PipaHappyHobbit

01-24-2003, 10:41 PM

For crying out loud,joxy the guy was just asking for some information about Tolkien.
The "Guy" would happen to be my SISTER>in other words a girl not a "guy";) No hard feeling though.:D
I totally agree about Joxy though.Why does everyone want to rip the movie up one side and down the other?!?Why can't we who LIKE them ENJOY them?If it haden't been for the movie I would never have read, or even heard about The Lord of the Rings.
I think that it would be VERY ,VERY hard trying to make a movie form a book that big.Even Mackintosh had to change parts of Victor Hugo's wonderful novel Les Miserables,so he could put it on stage.He changed the characters too.So why is every trying to make PJ look so bad?You guys are some of the MOST OVER CRITICAL,UNPRAISING people I've ever heard about.It's dispointing.:(

Odo Proudfoot

01-24-2003, 11:32 PM

Heyho Pip, go tell em like it is!

Odo

joxy

01-25-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Talimon
For crying out loud, joxy.... the guy was just asking for some information about Tolkien, not for a whole tirade against PJ. If you are planning on bashing PJ
She asked for information: I gave some.
I made no "tirade", did no "bashing".
I gave T's full name, his job, and the FACT that he did not write the line which was appeared in the question.
I made the recommendation, which you have duplicated, to consult for further information suitable areas of the Forum, and to find suitable books.
I thought it likely that she did not know that the quotation was not by T, and consider it reasonable to have pointed out the FACT. To describe it as "silly" and to say it is nothing like as good as anything T could have written seems to me to be at most mildly controversial.
There is always a possibility that non-readers may see the film, and assume that all or most of the dialogue is by T, so that they get the impression he wrote a bad mixture of styles. It is then a matter of giving information, and of respect to T's reputation, to point out the fact of the matter.
I do not accuse you of worshipping at the feet of Mr J; please refrain from accusing me of tirades and bashing.
Do people in 2003 say "for crying out loud"?:-)

Nóm

01-25-2003, 04:40 PM

Joxy, yes people say "for crying out loud". Why do you question that?
Anyhow, you have my support in this. That was no tirade in my opinion. Though one might read bitter undertones into it. ;)
I can certainly see how one might judge it to have been a little unecessary... but so what? Myself, I think it is kind of relevant, though it may be perceved as a little harsh.

Anyhow, so what if Talimon doesn't want to spend the time to read it. As for saving you the time of writing it - you do with your time, what you want to do.

joxy

01-25-2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by PipaHappyHobbit
I totally agree about Joxy though.Why does everyone want to rip the movie up one side and down the other?!?Why can't we who LIKE them ENJOY them?If it hadn't been for the movie I would never have read, or even heard about The Lord of the Rings.
I think that it would be VERY, VERY hard trying to make a movie form a book that big.
So why is every trying to make PJ look so bad? You guys are some of the MOST OVER CRITICAL, UNPRAISING people I've ever heard about. It's disappointing.:(
I said that one line of the film is "silly" and that T could never have written anything so poor. Is that "ripping the film up one side and down the other"?
You can enjoy all you want to do! WE, who like MOST, but not all, of their content, ALSO enjoy much of the films.
It's great that you read the books because of seeing the film. How did you react to finding the differences? It would be really interesting to see the reaction from the opposite point of view. I've asked this question before to other new readers, but have had no specific replies.
It is a simple fact that it would be impossible to make a film from the WHOLE of the books. Nobody expected that, nobody even wants that, and nobody blames PJ for not providing that. Why do you make such a CAPITAL point of a matter that doesn't even arise?
What does arise is that the parts of the book which did make it into the film should, and we believe easily could, have been presented in a form nearer to that of the books; and particularly that added dialogue definitely should have been written in a much better style, more like that of the books and less like that of a cheap comic book.
I don't see anyone trying to make Mr J look bad. I see "us" pointing out that he and his work have faults, which is quite reasonable, as he is, after all, only human! This area of the forum is all about discussing the differences, which we consider as faults. We are mildly "critical" of the faults, and I must make quite clear that we are also "praising" of the larger part of the films which are relatively free of faults. We, in turn, find it "disappointing", that people are unable, or unwilling, to see the faults, and that THEY under-criticise and over-praise!

joxy

01-25-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Nóm
Joxy... yes people say "for crying out loud"... why would ya question that?
Myself, I think it is kind of relevant, though it may be perceived as a little harsh.

Thanks Nom, good on you!
I'm afraid I'd be laughed at for an out-of-date nerd if I used the expression over here, but it's all a matter of custom or taste I suppose!
I thought it could be relevant because MM was asking for information, and that implied that she might not know that the sentence was from Mr J and not from T. It could then have been useful information for her, as writing style is such an important part specifically of all T's work, and it would be a pity if anyone thought that the line was really in his style.
Information, not tirades, or bashing, or ripping up one side and down the other!

Mischievious Merry

01-28-2003, 05:34 AM

Joxy,Thank you very much for your lovely comments on this thread and especially the one about my signture.
I HAVE read The Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien, and also the Hobbit by JRR Tolkien.I don't know very much like I said about LotR's, BUT I DO know fully well what is Tolkiens and what is Jackson's, thank you very much.
"This my friend is a pint" is one of my favorite lines from the movie of the Lord of the rings (The Fellowship of the Ring) by Peter Jackson, baised on the book by JRR Tolkien.
If you can tell me any very nice lines that Merry says in the book by JRR Tolkien plz post them.I would gladly welcome them.
Mischievious Merry

Talimon

01-28-2003, 08:11 AM

I'd probably be better off just ignoring this thread, but just to defend my post, let me say that it was not meant as a personal insult. I hoped the smiley at the end would give that away. And secondly, the reason I even reacted was because I thought the following reply was just trying to start an argument, rather then answer a rather simple question:

He did NOT write "This my friend is a pint"; that is a silly bit of script invented by Mr P Jackson and his family, and is nothing like as good as anything JRRT ever wrote.
It's great that you want to know about him, and I hope you will find some books about him, and get a lot of information from the areas of this forum that deal with him and his books, rather than here, where the topic is Mr Jackson's film "vision" of the books.

The original post did not ask whether he had written that line. It did not question how good Tolkien was. It had not even praised PJ's vision. In fact, it had not said a single word about the film to begin with. There are plenty of posts for discussing PJ's film on this forum. If folks want to voice thier opinions on the film they are encouraged to do so in those posts. It just seemed to me like joxy was replying to a post that wasn't there. When folks start criticizing PJ in a thread that has nothing to with PJ, I am inclined to think they are just looking for an arguement. But please take no personal offense, and I hope the original poster got the answer he wanted (in some shape or form).

Regarding "for crying out loud", I never speak it, but I sometimes write it. Call me cliched and unoriginal ;).

joxy

01-29-2003, 12:42 AM

Originally posted by Talimon
....to defend my post, let me say that it was not meant as a personal insult. I hoped the smiley at the end would give that away.
It just seemed to me like joxy was replying to a post that wasn't there.
That's OK, T, no offence taken. I DID get the smiley, but I also got the word "tirade" thrown at me, for an innocent statement of fact!
The post that was there was the line used as a signature, which surely meant that it was important to the contributor. As I've made very clear, I thought, and still think, it was quite reasonable for me to guess that the contributor did not know the line was not Tolkien's and therefore to pass on that information- as information is what was being asked for in the first place.
The whole area of the forum is about the differences between film and book; this is a difference.
I really do find it hard to take the way PJ enthusiasts react so sharply and strongly to the slightest suggestion of adverse criticism of Mr J. He isn't Mr Perfect"! Some of you - not you Talimon - please try to accept that!

joxy

01-29-2003, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Mischievious Merry
If you can tell me any very nice lines that Merry says in the book by JRR Tolkien plz post them. I would gladly welcome them.
Thank you, and I'll certainly do that!

joxy

02-01-2003, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by Mischievious Merry
If you can tell me any very nice lines that Merry says in the book by JRR Tolkien plz post them.
At Bucklebury ferry:
"I want Mr Baggins. Have you seen him?" "Where did you find them Mr Maggott? In your duck-pond?".
At Crickhollow:
"We know the Ring is no laughing matter; but we are going to do our best to help you against the Enemy" "If you want to be introduced to our chief investigator, I can produce him" - it was Sam.
I could give half a dozen lines from each and every chapter Merry appears in - and maybe will do so!
PJ had hundreds of lines ready and waiting in the books for Merry to say; I doubt if he used any of them but he thought he knew better than Tolkien what M was like and invented lines for him- fortunately not many altogether!

Mischievious Merry

02-03-2003, 04:59 AM

OH GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
Next time I would like to know something about Tolkien I'll pm somebody, instead of starting a stupid aguement with people who argue like 2 year olds! All I wanted was a bit of information about a great author. I didn't know that it was going to start all of this about this and that. Anyway I thank EVERYBODY who gave such GREAT info. on Tolkien.

Mischievious Merry

Mischievious Merry

02-03-2003, 05:01 AM

Now make sure you jump all over my post!

Mischievious Merry

02-03-2003, 05:05 AM

Joxy,
Oh I almost forgot to thank you for all of the time you put into finding those nice quotes about Merry. Though I do think I will stay with my first signiture. but thanks anyway.:p
Mischievious Merry

joxy

02-03-2003, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Mischievious Merry
....a stupid argument with people who argue like 2 year olds! All I wanted was a bit of information about a great author.
I didn't argue; I stated a fact - T did not write your signature! That was information, and I'm glad you agree T was a great author - one who could never have written that line, of course! (Add a imho, and a lol, to that!)

joxy

02-04-2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Mischievious Merry
....thank you for all of the time you put into finding those nice quotes about Merry.
They're easy to find, and fun to chose!
At the Old Forest:
"The trees do not like strangers. They watch you".
At the Prancing Pony:
"The worthies of Bree will be discussing it in a hundred years hence." - about Frodo vanishing as he sang.

lotrfan_15

02-04-2003, 11:57 PM

Why did he go by J.R.R Tolkien on his books and when he wassigning letters? Did he not like his name...?

joxy

02-06-2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by lotrfan_15
Why did he go by J.R.R Tolkien on his books and when he was signing letters? Did he not like his name...?
What do you mean?

FoolOfATook

02-06-2003, 08:05 PM

If I remember correctly, he didn't use his Christian name very much. At Oxford, his friends and colleagues called him "JRR", I think, except for Lewis, who called him "Tolkien". I'm not entirely sure about this without looking it up though.

PipaHappyHobbit

02-07-2003, 02:02 AM

Hello,everyone. I'm sorry for causing such and uproar and for getting mad. It was wrong of me. Please forgive me. Your posts, joxy just hit me wrong. I'm very sorry.

Truce joxy?
Even though I AM sorry I STILL DON'T agree with SOME of your posts.
"more like the books; instead of a cheap comic book, "
What parts were like a "cheap comic book"?
"We are mildly "critical" of the faults, "
MILDLY critical? Have you ever read The Two Towers reveiws thread, or PJ'S a disgreace? Some posts on there were QUITE critical to me.
But thats my opinion.;) Anyway, I hope to see you all on better terms.:)

joxy

02-07-2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by PipaHappyHobbit
Your posts, joxy just hit me wrong. I'm very sorry.
What parts were like a "cheap comic book"?
MILDLY critical? Have you ever read The Two Towers reviews thread, or PJ'S a disgrace?
That's real nice PHH, thank you very much, though there wasn't really anything to be sorry about - I didn't think you actually meant that my snippet of factual information was "ripping PJ up and down"!
It's some of the invented lines that would be better in a cheap comic book than in what is generally a pretty good film. I've been through many of them before, all the way from Bilbo's "Sticklebacks" to Boromir's dying triple apposition (!).
I haven't visited the TTT area much, and I took it that "disgrace" in the title was meant as a joke, an exaggeration on the level of some of the words used in the opposite direction, such as "awesome".
I can only speak for this area, and I really don't recall anyone being excessive here about what everyone agrees are pretty drastic changes by PJ; his millions should make him strong enough to withstand remarks of this level of mildness.

joxy

02-08-2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
If I remember correctly, he didn't use his Christian name very much.
In his time not many people did.
Now far too many people do.

lightingstrike

02-08-2003, 06:56 PM

way to go Pip!!!!! Yousaid it just right!!! Everyone needs to quit bashing PJ on every single post you ever put up!!!!! Jeez!

Hadhafang

02-25-2003, 12:00 AM

way to go Pip!!!!! Yousaid it just right!!! Everyone needs to quit bashing PJ on every single post you ever put up!!!!! Jeez!
I don't agree with all Joxy's criticisms of the films but...Joxy still has the right to an opinion. I personally think a director has to invent text in a film adaption. A charater's thoughts in the book or the author's narrative can't always be translated into action on the big screen. In order to get key points of character development across the text has to be created to reflect those thoughts. Hobbits love ale. I don't think the "pint" remarks of Pippin really depart from Tolkien's spirit that much.

Sorry for contributing to the tangent.....
Tolkien was a devout Catholic who was born in South Africa. He emmigrated to England at a young age, developed a love of philology, and eventually became an Oxford Don.

Nazgul12680

03-07-2003, 04:12 AM

In one of the biography's of Tolkien (I forget which one) it's clear (though not outright stated) that he went by Ronald, especially when he was younger. His dad was named John too (if I remember correctly) and he died when JRR was 4. His mother died when he was 12. He served in the First World War but became very ill with a severe trench disease and I believe was discharged. He married his lifelong sweetheart and actually convinced her to break off her engagement with another guy and marry him. His 4 children are John, Michael, Christopher, and daughter Priscilla. John Jr and Christopher both served in World War II, John in the Royal Air Force as a gunner and Christopher was in Africa.

Tolkien had a fear of paperback publishing and refused to let his works be published in paperback. In the 60's in America someone re-wrote The Hobbit and began selling paperback copies. Tolkien and his publisher of course sued and won and therefore began printing them in paperback which really began the works' popularity in the United States. It's sad that in the film prints of the book that paragraphs at the end of FOTR and TTT which tell what happens in the next book are omitted. Unfortunately Tolkien's fear of paperback has been justified about 30 years after his death, someone altered the work he poured so much of his life into.

Tolkien is my life...well a big part of it.

Nazgul12680

03-07-2003, 04:18 AM

I hope that helped Mischevious Merry and go ahead and keep asking questions. I only hang around the film debate forum so I'd be glad to see this thread continue. I've happily devoted much of my life to Tolkien and would be glad to tell anything I know even though "I can claim only to have seen a page or two." And it makes me very happy to see someone go to the books because of the movie. Much of my...anger...about the films is that many people around me are like "I tried to read the books but they just suck! The writing and dialogue are terrible. The movies are better than the books!" and lines such as these are just heresy. It's because most of these people can't get past the lengthy first chapter or get bored by the introductory "About Hobbits" section (which is unnecassary to understand the story, but fun info still).

Nazgul12680

03-07-2003, 04:22 AM

Joxy,

I'll support the things you said here, I don't think it was too much. I too am not trying to make others around me "not like" these movies (although honestly I personally loathe them after TTT) but I want people like Mischievious Merry to understand that many of us devoute Tolkien fans are upset because we are extremely dissappointed. Peter Jackson made great movies in their own right...yes. Peter Jackson succesfully told Tolkien's story in a true manner to the authour's intentions...no. It's just a big let down for me because I wanted to show everyone why I'm such a "dork" for this man's work and what's on that screen is not the reason why, not even close. But once again what Joxy I think said: it COULD HAVE been done, and it wasn't.

I'll stop I'll stop

Mirabella

03-07-2003, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by Nazgul12680
I only hang around the film debate forum so I'd be glad to see this thread continue. I've happily devoted much of my life to Tolkien and would be glad to tell anything I know even though "I can claim only to have seen a page or two."

May I ask why you don't go to the book forum? Your thoughts and opinions would doubltless be very welcome there. :)

Edit: On reflection, this seems like I am hinting that you leave the movie forum, which I am not at all.

joxy

03-07-2003, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Nazgul12680
I'll support the things you said here, I don't think it was too much.
....I personally loathe them after TTT....
....many of us devout Tolkien fans are upset because we are extremely disappointed.
Peter Jackson made great movies in their own right.
....it COULD HAVE been done, and it wasn't.
I'll stop I'll stop
Thank you, and don't stop!
At least say more about why TTT turned out so much worse than FOTR, as so many agree it did.
Disappointment is correct: we were led to expect better than we got.
Now we diverge: PJ's films in their own right are only great IN PARTS. Increasingly we are finding that they don't actually fit together well enough, within themselves, to be first-class works.
But yes again, the man obviously does have talent, and COULD have done much better, both of the adaptation and of the films in themselves.
Don't stop!

Nazgul12680

03-07-2003, 11:33 PM

Mirabella,
I probably will go to the book forum sometime to geek out about the book. But if you haven't seen some of my other posts you wouldn't know that I sought this forum because I couldn't find anyone who shared my dissappoinment over the movies, in fact my family and friends labeled me as a "purist" and thought I was being unfair to Peter Jackson, which I'm not, I'm just trying to defend my right to dislike these movies. My brother is like "You've been such a huge Tolkien nerd your whole life, you should love these movies more than anyone!" and my mom is like "You're the one who made us go see the first movie! And now you're telling us you don't like them?!"

Now in this debate forum I've found people who share my opinions and who I can discuss these matters with intelligently and I'm having a good time doing it. So all that rambling to say that's why I've only been around this forum, I'm still new here.

Nazgul12680

03-07-2003, 11:43 PM

I don't want to divulge too much from the intent of this thread (which was to let Mischevious Merry know more about Tolkien) so I won't go into why TTT was the last straw for me with these movies. In fact I could probably write a book about it so I'm not even going to try with a post.

I may start a thread about the deletion of the two paragraphs I mentioned earlier in every book print that features the film's images.

Also, I think that plot holes in the movies are Jackson's punishment for making it up. Tolkien spent like a decade writing this work, it's solid. With everything else Jackson had to deal with (sound, costumes, shooting, etc) there's no way their concentration could have been totally focused on creating a solid story of their own...which once again makes me question why they did what they did by inventing so much.

joxy

03-08-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Nazgul12680
I don't want to diverge too much from the intent of this thread (which was to let Mischievous Merry know more about Tolkien).
I may start a thread about the deletion of the two paragraphs I mentioned earlier in every book print that features the film's images.
Also, I think that plot holes in the movies are Jackson's punishment for making it up....which once again makes me question why they did what they did by inventing so much.
MM did indeed begin by asking for information about Tolkien. I thought it was useful information to point out that a lot of the material in the films was not written by Tolkien. Should anyone who has not read the books be left with the impression that the film faithfully uses his material?
"Mentioned earlier"? Where? Please expand on this.
That's a neat way of summing up many of the points made here: PJ could not be expected to invent material that could match T's, so why did he try so often?!

Mrs. Maggott

03-09-2003, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by joxy
At Bucklebury ferry:
"I want Mr Baggins. Have you seen him?" "Where did you find them Mr Maggott? In your duck-pond?".
At Crickhollow:
"We know the Ring is no laughing matter; but we are going to do our best to help you against the Enemy" "If you want to be introduced to our chief investigator, I can produce him" - it was Sam.
I could give half a dozen lines from each and every chapter Merry appears in - and maybe will do so!
PJ had hundreds of lines ready and waiting in the books for Merry to say; I doubt if he used any of them but he thought he knew better than Tolkien what M was like and invented lines for him- fortunately not many altogether!
I am not going necessarily to say I like or dislike the dialogue between Merry and Pippin at Bree about "pints". However, I do believe (unless my memory is much worse than I fear it is...) that Jackson was setting Pippin up to be an idiot when he went to the bar and "spilled the beans" about one Frodo Baggins being with their party. I would guess that Jackson felt it necessary to make Pippin even less intelligent (or perhaps lacking in common sense) than he had done so far as that would be the only way to make sense of his outburst. Surely, at some time in their journey from the ferry, Frodo must have suggested that his name not be mentioned? If he didn't, then Jackson made a dimwit of the wrong hobbit!

joxy

03-10-2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
....Jackson was setting Pippin up to be an idiot when he went to the bar....
That's how he started him, and M, off, right from the fireworks, through the cornfield, via Bree, into Moria (skeleton), and right up to leaving Lorien (lembas). The idea was supposed to be to show a gradual maturing, but that only showed up very briefly at the orc-capture, then suddenly the maturity was complete at their first appearance in TTT - the change is not what I'd call gradual!

Ariana Undomiel

08-12-2003, 02:37 AM

Joxy, why do you constantly tear down the films? I think by now everyone on here knows your opinions and your critsisms of the films. Now would you just GET OVER IT! Seriously, stop being so antagonistic, it is hardly helpful.

- Ariana

Mrs. Maggott

08-12-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
Joxy, why do you constantly tear down the films? I think by now everyone on here knows your opinions and your critsisms of the films. Now would you just GET OVER IT! Seriously, stop being so antagonistic, it is hardly helpful.
- Ariana
"Tear down" these films? I would say that the good joxy and others - including myself - are hardly "tearing down" anything. We are merely commenting upon them. That our comments reveal the films' failures is hardly our fault for if the failures were not present, no comment of ours would be forthcoming. Furthermore, even had we said nothing whatsoever, the failures would remain for it is Mr. Jackson and no one else who put them there. I would say that criticism of these films will cease at about the same time as their unfettered adulation also ceases. As long as these films are held up for admiration, there is going to be someone who is also going to point out their shortcomings.

However, criticism, even when it is harsh, does not constitute personal "antagonism" toward Jackson or those who liked the films and should not be seen as such. No critic of the films has ever even suggested that it is his or her intention to make film lovers into film haters. We speak only for ourselves. However, we do believe we have a "right" (and how I hate that word) to counter acclaim lauded upon these films if we believe it to be undeserved. Nonetheless, you will notice that we are usually very careful and thorough in our presentation of why we are finding fault. We don't as a rule make blanket statements (I hated it!! It stunk!! etc.), but buttress our arguments with examples of what we believed was wrong and even how it could have been done right - or at least better. If, however, such actions are viewed by some film afficianados as "antagonistic", that, I'm afraid (as with our own criticisms) is the subjective conclusion of the individual making the complaint.

joxy

08-14-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel
Joxy, why do you constantly tear down the films?
....stop being so antagonistic, it is hardly helpful.
As you made this comment a couple of days ago in response to my last posting on this thread in March, I don't see where "constantly" comes into the discussion!
The theme of this thread contains the word "versus", which might be taken to imply antagonism; if that is so, then I'm in order with the thread; if it doesn't, then I claim that my contributions don't contain the verbal violence that the word antagonism really implies. Mrs M has very kindly confirmed her views on my contributions in that respect.
The only feelings we have that might be described truly as violent are against those who seem to think that the films are uniformly unblameworthy, which would make this thread superfluous. We try, by quoting "line and verse" to point out that in fact they do deserve blame, both as adaptations, and as films seen separately from their source material.