Dictionary

[Finduilas]

I suggest this thread to be used by foreigners in order to be explained some typical English phrases and words (and not so typical). If a phrase or word cannot be found in the dictionary we (the foreigners ) will ask for help, won't we?
I submit this thread because I myself have some problems with Tolkien's vocabulary.
So let me begin:

This passage was struck out ,and is not found in the typescript text...
What does strike out mean in this case?:confused:

many of a hall
What does it mean?

-------------------------------------------------
the qoutes are from The Lost Tales 2 Ch.1(in the beginning)

[Eöl]

Struck out, in this case refers to the fact that the text presented there was removed from the original typescript.

Many of a hall may simply be an error on Tolkien's part because Christopher states in the foreword to Lost Tales Volume 1 that he left grammatical and spelling errors as they were.

[Finduilas]

Hey, will somebody give me some synonyms of 'sensitive', please?

[Aulë]

responsive
receptive
susceptible
aware
perceptive
insightful
thin-skinned
indifferent (antonym)
delicate
touchy
vulnerable
easily upset
easily hurt
hypersensitive
impervious (antonym)
precise
precision
exact
delicate
finely tuned
responsive

[Beleg]

someone sure knows the whole encarta dictionary! Erm may i ask the meaning of the word "thither?"

[gate7ole]

Mmm, english is not my native, but I guess you want the word "hither", as in "Hither Lands"? If yes, then it means "here"

[FoolOfATook]

"Hither and thither" is an archaic way of saying "here and there". Hither is here, and thither is there. I'm pretty sure about this, but I'm going off of the top of my head, so I could very well be wrong. If I am, then I'm going to delete this post instantly, and try to retain as much of my dubious English Major credibility as I possibly can. ;)

[Finduilas]

"Hither and thither" is an archaic way of saying "here and there". Hither is here, and thither is there. I'm pretty sure about this, but I'm going off of the top of my head, so I could very well be wrong. If I am, then I'm going to delete this post instantly, and try to retain as much of my dubious English Major credibility as I possibly can.

Yes, you are right.

I checked, however, in the dictionary:

thither- old use; to that place, in that direction

[Aulë]

thith·er ( P ) Pronunciation (ththr, thth-)
adv.
To or toward that place; in that direction; there: running hither and thither.

adj.
Located or being on the more distant side; farther: the thither side of the pond.


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[Middle English, from Old English thider. See to- in Indo-European Roots.]

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Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


thither

\Thith"er\, a. 1. Being on the farther side from the person speaking; farther; -- a correlative of hither; as, on the thither side of the water. --W. D. Howells.

2. Applied to time: On the thither side of, older than; of more years than. See Hither, a. --Huxley.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


thither

\Thith"er\, adv. [OE. thider, AS. [eth]ider; akin to E. that; cf. Icel. [thorn]a[eth]ra there, Goth. [thorn]a[thorn]r[=o] thence. See That, and The.] 1. To that place; -- opposed to hither.

This city is near; . . . O, let me escape thither. --Gen. xix. 20.

Where I am, thither ye can not come. --John vii. 34.

2. To that point, end, or result; as, the argument tended thither.

Hither and thither, to this place and to that; one way and another.

Syn: There.

Usage: Thither, There. Thither properly denotes motion toward a place; there denotes rest in a place; as, I am going thither, and shall meet you there. But thither has now become obsolete, except in poetry, or a style purposely conformed to the past, and there is now used in both senses; as, I shall go there to-morrow; we shall go there together.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


thither

adv : to or toward that place; away from the speaker; "go there around noon!" [syn: there] [ant: here]



:D

[Finduilas]

LOL!!!:D

[gate7ole]

It seems to me (a non-english) that all the "-ither" words can be replaced by "-ere".
So: th-ither -> th-ere

Thus, we can say:
"whither", meaning "where".

[Aulë]

whith·er Pronunciation (hwthr, wth-)
adv.
To what place, result, or condition: Whither are we wandering?

conj.
To which specified place or position: landed on the shores whither the storm had tossed them.
To whatever place, result, or condition: “Whither thou goest, I will go” (Ruth 1:16).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old English hwider. See kwo- in Indo-European Roots.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
[Buy it]


whither

\Whith"er\, adv. [OE. whider. AS. hwider; akin to E. where, who; cf. Goth. hvadr[=e] whither. See Who, and cf. Hither, Thither.] 1. To what place; -- used interrogatively; as, whither goest thou? ``Whider may I flee?'' --Chaucer.

Sir Valentine, whither away so fast? --Shak.

2. To what or which place; -- used relatively.

That no man should know . . . whither that he went. --Chaucer.

We came unto the land whither thou sentest us. --Num. xiii. 27.

3. To what point, degree, end, conclusion, or design; whereunto; whereto; -- used in a sense not physical.

Nor have I . . . whither to appeal. --Milton.

Any whither, to any place; anywhere. [Obs.] ``Any whither, in hope of life eternal.'' --Jer. Taylor.

No whither, to no place; nowhere. [Obs.] --2 Kings v. 25.

Syn: Where.

Usage: Whither, Where. Whither properly implies motion to place, and where rest in a place. Whither is now, however, to a great extent, obsolete, except in poetry, or in compositions of a grave and serious character and in language where precision is required. Where has taken its place, as in the question, ``Where are you going?''


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.



Looks like you're right, gate7ole:D

[Beleg]

Aww. Thanks! LoL. You guys sure did some digging up. Thanks a lot Master Peregrin. I am sure to repay you your kindness someday. :D

[Aulë]

Ahh- interesting signature, Beleg.
May I ask how your team went against the West Indies last night?

[Beleg]

May I ask how your team went against the West Indies last night?

SA is not my team. My team will be up against the Aussie's tommorow. However, The Porteans lost the match due to the witless batting of Klusner.:mad:

And May i ask which team you support?:confused:

[Aulë]

Australia

And please don't reply to this if Australia lose tonight....
It isn't looking too good at the moment!:(

[Lhunithiliel]

I would like to know what, where and for what EXACTLY is the use of the following:

SWOT ANALYSIS.

Could someone help?

[Aulë]

A SWOT (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats) analysis means obtaining current information about an organization's strengths, weaknesses and performance.

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you very much :)

Another one:

I have noticed lately a line often repeated and used in songs:

"Cry me a river"

What might it mean, I wonder?

[FoolOfATook]

It's a sarcastic remark that one makes to someone who's feeling sorry for themselves, but no one else feels sorry for. For example-

"Oh, you can't decide between vacationing in the Alps or taking a cruise in the Carribean? Cry me a river."

[Eledhwen]

Any Americans having trouble with British English, look here (http://www.effingpot.com)

[Beleg]

Guys, i would really advice you to read the slang section of the site Eled provided us. I discussed some of them with a friend from USA and lets just say some of them aren't appreciated there.....

Bird....LoL...

[Mrs. Maggott]

I would suggest that anyone who can go to old and used book stores and pick up an "unabridged" dictionary (usually a very large book). These are generally fairly old (beginning of the last century) and have many more "archaic" uses presented than the more modern "dumbed down" dictionaries that we have today.

Also, a thesaurus is a very good investment as it will give a great many synonyms - and the older the thesaurus, the more apt one is to get a fairly wide range of words relating to other words. However, the truth is, most of these more useful works are much older and can only be found in used book stores and sometimes in garage and rummage sales. thrift shops and flea markets. You just have to keep your eyes open for these works.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Pippin_Took
A SWOT (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats) analysis means obtaining current information about an organization's strengths, weaknesses and performance. :DMaybe you don't have it in the States (I'll have to check effingpot), but a 'swot' is a person who foregoes the hedonistic pleasures of life (and maybe sports too) in order to permanently bury their heads in their study books, for the pleasure of studying.

[Aulë]

Yes, but the term "SWOT ANALYSIS" was the one being queried.

[Eledhwen]

I know that! I just found it funny that they picked that word. I am fascinated by words - they always create a picture in my head, (so mixed metaphors make me laugh). SWOT analysis left me with rows of carrels, each with a resident swot, being analysed for their relative strengths/weaknesses etc. Madness I know, but it keeps me sane.

[Eledhwen]

I just found this website which I found fascinating: www.krysstal.com/wordname.html and I was wondering (a) does anyone know of a similar but more comprehensive site, and (b) how accurate is the information? Oh how I wish JRRT were here to ask!

[Lhunithiliel]

Could someone explain to me very clearly the exact meaning of the word "spamming" in the sense it is used in the forum?

Thanks! :)

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Could someone explain to me very clearly the exact meaning of the word "spamming" in the sense it is used in the forum?

Thanks! :)

I think that means that a person writes silly and totally unuseful posts that do not concern anybody. Or at least that's my idea. By spamming the easy-going of the forum is being torn into peaces in my opinoin.

[Beleg]

spam [spam] noun (plural spams)
electronic junk mail: an unsolicited often commercial message transmitted through the Internet as a mass mailing to a large number of recipients

intransitive and transitive verb (past spammed, past participle spammed, present participle spam·ming, 3rd person present singular spams)
post multiple unwanted messages: to post a message many times to a newsgroup, an inappropriate message to multiple newsgroups, or to send an unsolicited message, often an advertisement, to many people

[Late 20th century. Origin uncertain: perhaps from a Monty Python sketch in which Spam™ is served whether wanted or not.]

Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

In Forum terms, Posting three or more times in quick interval with short, meaningless posts, i-e, Lol, Hello, Thank you, etc.

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you! :)

So.... if one and the same message NOT meaningless (say... some announcement or similar) is posted in several places at one and the same time...... is it spamming? :confused:

[Finduilas]

I believe it is not because it might be an important one which has to be posted in several different places. For example, I posted almost the same post about GG's health problems in two threads but that wasn't spamming, was it?

[Finduilas]

I recently watched the applications of the extended edition of the DVD version of ‘The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring’ and a thought rose in my mind. There was a theory that the words and names did mean something more than their initial interpretation. It is more of an allegory than interpretation. As an example was given the word ‘wraith’ (spirit) and some similar to writing words such as ‘wrath’, ‘writhe’, etc. The idea was that the Nine Spirits of the Ring can be identified and easily understood by finding out their true physiological nature and purpose for the Book. And that can be done by these similar words and their meaning. I know, and so does everybody, that Tolkien detested allegory but he actually tried to avoid the real-world sense because he had seen much of its violence.
Therefore, I believe that such allegory is quite useful for us in order to find the spirit of the Book. What I want to initiate is a kind of research of most of Tolkien’s names and words which have an important part in his Masterpieces. We can make a list and everyone who wishes can participate and exam the ‘territory’ of a word and its ‘synonyms’ and then prepare a report on his topic. I wait for your replies and suggestions.

[Lhunithiliel]

Findi, this is a very interesting idea but IMO you should take it out from here and take it to a separate thread.
Try to organize it.
I am sure it's going to be fun!
********

I have a Q :

Where does the suffix -gham come from?
As in Buckingham, Birmingham etc.

[Finduilas]

Lhun, I thought of this as a work or research of the 'Dictionary' topic but I suppose your idea is better.
However, in order to open such a thread I need to have the list of those 'key-words and names' we are going to discuss.
Pleaes post here for any suggestions.

********
Lhun, I'm sorry to tell it but I have no idea!!!!
I don't know where that prefix comes from.:)

[Eledhwen]

"The Hobbit Companion" by David Day and illustrated by Lidia Postma, is all about how Tolkien invented all Hobbit lore, personalities and stories through the meanings of the Hobbits' names. It's fascinating.

[Lhunithiliel]

I am sorry to bother you, linguists, :o but could someone really answer the question in my previous post, please?
... about the -ghm suffix?

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh! Thanks , buddy! :p You've won yourself a beer! ..Cheers!

Mhm... so ,... a "home"...how interesting!
Thank you again! Much obliged!

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Oh! Thanks , buddy! :p You've won yourself a beer! ..Cheers!

Mhm... so ,... a "home"...how interesting!
Thank you again! Much obliged!
A BEER!And what about me?A TEA?!..............rrrggggrg :mad:

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
I just read that maybe in some cases hamm would also be possible origin: like in Southampton which means south town in a hamm, a hamm is a low-land at a river (from: G. Ashe Mythology of the British Isles)...
Hmmm... I might be wrong, but it sounds like a different word already. I mean I have noticed in the English language sometimes it takes one single letter (added, changed etc.) to have a completely new word:
Ex. from modern English: suit <> suite
and this is why I think that - ham would be with different meaning from - hamm.

Gil-Galad: You can have my beer, it would probably be warm before I finally get there to drink it (in some three months or so) ;)
Hey! :mad: Where do you think we are living?!!!!! In some jungle or what?!... We do have refrigerators! Right, G-G? :p :D

And G-G, do I have to explain to you the pleasure of having a cold beer and fresh fried fish on the beach at night in Varna?! ;) :D

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel


And G-G, do I have to explain to you the pleasure of having a cold beer and fresh fried fish on the beach at night in Varna?! ;) :D
Well,at the moment I'm drinkin a bottle of fine Kamenitza Extra beer.
:cool: And yes you do not have to explain that pleasure cause the thought of the sea is making me crazy!(I can't wait till 28th May to go to Sunny Beach):cool:

[Finduilas]

I'd like to ask for the transcription of Beowulf.How is it pronounced?

[Lhunithiliel]

And I'm interested whether it is:

suire

or

Esquire

the right word?

[Finduilas]

It's Esquire. It's an old English word for a noble person.It also is the title of a magazine.

[Lantarion]

Esquire is used by Tolkien mainly as a sort of vassal or arms-bearer type person, like Ohtar was Isildur's esquire.

[Lhunithiliel]

Mhmmm... Well, the Oxford dictionary had persuaded me that it is SQUIRE the right word for the titles I had given to Beleg, Eol and Findi ....

But thanks, anyway... :D

[Lantarion]

Finduilas:
Beowulf is pronounced "Be[h]-o'-wolf", all in one, no breaks.
The 'eo' is a single diphthong, I think, although two syllables.

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah, Lantarion, did I tell you how glad I am to see you around here!!!! :D

Now, if you could also give us the pronunciation of all other difficult names in that tale of Beowulf! ;) :) :D (Kidding!)

[Lantarion]

Well as long as they follow phonetic rules, I'm game. :D
But there are some weeeeiird words in Old English... all the strange -ch sounds and cw- words.. :eek:

[Manveru]

I'd like to ask about something which hasn't given me a moment of peace since I watched 'The Two Towers' for the first time...
I mean... this is a some kind of dictionary thread, right? OK, here's my Q:
In the film, when Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are paying a visit to Theoden, Grima (in one of his lines) is saying: ''Lathspell I name him...'' (I think I've spelled it well;)).
What does 'lathspell' mean? Can anyone help me?
If the spelling is wrong (I'm sorry--I've written it through listening to it;)) please correct me? THX

[Beleg]

Bringer of Woes/ill news?

*Not sure though.

[Finduilas]

If we consider the word as a compound one we may have SOME options of its translating:

First of all, ‘lath’ as a verb means ‘cover with laths’ but if we replace one part of this meaning with the meaning of the word spell, here’s what we get- cover with spells .
Or in other words not only does he bring woes/ill news but every time he does it something bad happens, something he has spelled. Therefore, they call him a spell-coverer of their Realm.

However, ‘lath’ in this combination ‘lath and plaster’ also means ‘flimsy’ and ‘spell’ has the meaning of ‘lead to’. Therefore, we may conclude that the word ‘lathspell’ has the meaning of ‘lead-to-flimsiness’ or in other words that he leads to the flimsiness of the Realm and can be called bringer of a doomed future .

[Manveru]

Well...THX a lot:D
I think both suggestions make sense;)
Now I'm free at last...

[Lhunithiliel]

IMPRRRRRRRRRREASIVE, my young (E)squire!
I M P R E S S I V E!! :D

[Finduilas]

Auh...thanks...:o

* * *

Hmmm,I'd like to ask a question:
If I want to 'compose' a word myself, for example 'feeling-like-on-the-seventh-heaven' (meaning 'awesome!') or 'crushing-one's-head-on-the-wooden-desk' (meaning 'dumb'), aa...if I want to do this are there any rules or can I just use any words I like and simply separating them with a hyphen and thus making them a word,to wit adjective?

[Lhunithiliel]

As much as I witness the development of the language, I think that one is able to make as many and ANY word combinations. :D

Make it, put it in a sample sentence to demonstrate the meaning...and here you are... :D

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
As much as I witness the development of the language, I think that one is able to make as many and ANY word combinations. :D

Make it, put it in a sample sentence to demonstrate the meaning...and here you are... :D

Well,thanks a lot you mama-and-master-of-all-" kids' "-stuff ! ;) :D

[Finduilas]

I'm sorry for the double post, but my knowledge concerning Latin languages is less than little...:rolleyes:

So and the question:

What does Baila me mean?
I know it's something to do with love :) after all it's used in love songs...:)

[Lhunithiliel]

It's spanish, Findi and it means "Dance me"...meaning "get me to dance" :)

[Finduilas]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
It's spanish, Findi and it means "Dance me"...meaning "get me to dance" :)

Oh, ok...:)
I will get you to dance one day when I come to Varna...;):rolleyes: :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Rohirrim is plural.

What's the singular? :confused:

[Minuel Lasgalas]

Rohirrim is plural.

What's the singular? :confused:

I have been using Rohir... horse (roch) lord (hir).

Then again, on the drive home from work I remembered reading that in a singular form it was 'Lady of Rohan,' etc., so I'm not sure Rohir applies.

[Starflower]

have been using Rohir... horse (roch) lord (hir).

the pure Sindarin from would probably be Rochir , but it's unlikely that it would have been used on its own as Rohirrim is denoting a nation, not individuals. The same as there is no one 'Rider of Rohan', only 'Riders of Rohan'.

[Minuel Lasgalas]

have been using Rohir... horse (roch) lord (hir).

the pure Sindarin from would probably be Rochir , but it's unlikely that it would have been used on its own as Rohirrim is denoting a nation, not individuals. The same as there is no one 'Rider of Rohan', only 'Riders of Rohan'.

That's in line with what I remembered. Odd :)

[Helcaraxë]

Ahh, the Latin languages. :D I'm taking Spanish and Latin in school, but my Latin teacher is from Germany so he started teaching me German a few days ago. The pronunciation is radically different from English and Spanish, so I'm having trouble pinning it down. I'm also teaching myself Greek. The only hard part is I have to think in terms of the Greek alphabet when learning the declensions and conjugations, ect. The only advantage to English having no gramatical consistency is that there are no complicated set of suffixes to learn. But of course the downside is that speakers of English as a foreign language have to learn the attribute of every different word before they can construct a coherent sentence, as the grammar varies from word to word. :rolleyes: Oh, but I'm rambling. :D

[Manveru]

Per aspera ad astra...;)

I'm trying to teach myself (geesh, sounds like I'm a pro in this already :D) Latin. Isn't easy on my own, but I keep on moving...

Helcaraxë, sounds like a linguist to me...

:D

[Helcaraxë]

Well, I'm working on it. :D

Manveru, is "astra" second declension neuter or first declension feminine? Because if it's first declension it would be the accusative "astras." But the accusative plural of second declension neuter nouns is "a." I'm not sure which declension it's in.

[Manveru]

astrum, astri n - star, heavenly body...(it's second declension, neutrum)

and since ad (to, up to, towards) as a preposition "goes along" with accusativus: ad astra -> to(wards) the stars

everything fits this way:)

[Eledhwen]

As much as I witness the development of the language, I think that one is able to make as many and ANY word combinations. :D

Make it, put it in a sample sentence to demonstrate the meaning...and here you are... :DWhen I am quoting Tolkien using Word 2000, it frequently offers grammar changes, and flags as mis-spellings words where, for instance, the professor has preferred to prefix 'un' instead of 'in' (which produces a subtle difference in meaning).

English has been weakened in recent years by sloppy usage and decreasing knowledge of core vocabulary (which then has to be replaced with weaker alternatives). One that I have mentioned elsewhere is the part where Elrond says in the film "The Ring should be cast back .... from whence it came." - a phrase Tolkien would never have written, because 'whence' means 'from where' (as written in TTT, where Faramir asks Pippin, "Whence come you?").

BTW Manveru, did you know that the motto of the Royal Air Force is 'Per Ardua Ad Astra'? I'd be no good as a linguist because I can't even remember the labels for the parts of a sentence without looking them up.

[Manveru]

BTW Manveru, did you know that the motto of the Royal Air Force is 'Per Ardua Ad Astra'?
Well, well, well... look at that... hmm... one learns all his/her life and still "ends up" dead silly;)

[Eledhwen]

How can increasing your general knowledge be equated with being 'dead silly'?

[Helcaraxë]

All people with general knowledge are silly. Haven't you noticed? :D

[Eledhwen]

All people with general knowledge are silly. Haven't you noticed? :D...that is, until they gain enough of it to be called a stand up comedian. :)

[Helcaraxë]

Yes, a stand up comedian or just a fool. ;)

[Eledhwen]

Most humour requires a particular knowledge for the cracking and the appreciating of the joke. By 'fool' do you mean the medieval professional of that name, or the modern usage - one given to behaving foolishly?

Incidentally, I read a very good essay on Pippin's foolishness in www.hollywoodjesus.com/lord_of_the_rings_feature_20.htm

[Lhunithiliel]

Mythopoeia

Is it some combination of the words "myth and poetry? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Manveru]

***

From Greek - mythopoios = composer of fiction, from mythopoiein = to relate a story;
mythos = story + poiein = to make*

***

mythopoeia = i believe it's something like act of making myths/fiction or art of myths/fiction

---------
* - found it on dictionary.com - wish i could know it (but just wait...)

[Lhunithiliel]

WOW! :eek:

Thank you!!! :)

Ans since you're entering the linguists' society, I have a small "present for you!
Just PM me with your e-mail to sent it over to you! ;)