The Silmarillion - Of Thingol and Melian

[Turgon]

I've been asked to take over this discussion in the absence of Elu Thingol. A rather short chapter - but a beautiful one. Here are somethings that struck me.

'Nightingales went always with her, and she taught them their song; and she loved the deep shadows of the great trees.'

Is this the beginning of a Nightingale motive? It seems they play large part in the theme of lovers meeting in the woods. Melian and Elwë, Beren and Lúthien, and by proxy Arwen and Aragorn.

from 'Of Thingol and Melian'
'...Elwë, lord of the Teleri, went often through the great woods to seek out Finwë his friend in the dwellings of the Noldor; and it chanced on a time that he came alone to the starlit wood of Nan Elmoth, and there suddenly he heard the song of nightingales. Then an enchantment fell on him, and he stood still; and afar off beyond the voices of the lómelindi he heard the voice of Melian, and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot then utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind...'

from 'Of Beren and Lúthien'
'But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar.'

I'm struck my the similarities of these two meetings - the one almost seems presage to the other. It could be said that Melian was as far above Elwë, as Lúthien was Beren. Strange then that Thingol had no compassion for Beren's plight?

'And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the Children of Ilúvatar that was or shall ever be.'

How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy?

[Maedhros]

I'm struck my the similarities of these two meetings - the one almost seems presage to the other. It could be said that Melian was as far above Elwë, as Lúthien was Beren. Strange then that Thingol had no compassion for Beren's plight?
Very perceptive, O Hidden King of Gondolin. Maybe the Nightingales are synonymous with true love then?
I'm struck my the similarities of these two meetings - the one almost seems presage to the other. It could be said that Melian was as far above Elwë, as Lúthien was Beren. Strange then that Thingol had no compassion for Beren's plight?
I think that reflects on the character of Thingol, you just have to see how he treated the Ñoldor when they came to Beleriand, not even have the courtesy of inviting the princes to his realm, only those who were his family.
How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy?
Could be, but Melian was a maia incarnate, she created a hröa in the form of an Elf, but she was not an elf herself. Her hröa had the maia touch if you will.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I think that reflects on the character of Thingol, you just have to see how he treated the Ñoldor when they came to Beleriand, not even have the courtesy of inviting the princes to his realm, only those who were his family.

I wouldn't exactly go blaming Thingol for not throwing a huge party for the newcomers. After all, they bore a terrible curse on their shoulders, and he and Melian probably perceived a certain "shadow" looming over their arrival; moreover I would say that it was prudent of Thingol not to have invited them, after all, he was thinking about the safety of his people and he didn't want to get Doriath involved in any "trouble".

Originally posted by Maedhros
Could be, but Melian was a maia incarnate, she created a hröa in the form of an Elf, but she was not an elf herself. Her hröa had the maia touch if you will.

I completely agree with this.

A shame that this chapter is not longer and more detailed, I would have loved to hear more specifics about their romance. :)

[Maedhros]

After all, they bore a terrible curse on their shoulders, and he and Melian probably perceived a certain "shadow" looming over their arrival; moreover I would say that it was prudent of Thingol not to have invited them, after all, he was thinking about the safety of his people and he didn't want to get Doriath involved in any "trouble".
If those were Thingol's intentions, it would be different, but he was jealous of the Ñoldorian princes. Finwë was his friend, and he didn't have the courtesy of hearing the sons of his friend? What a great friend. At that time, they didn't know of the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.

[chrysophalax]

I agree, Maedhros (don't faint!) Thingol was never known for his smarts or good judgement. Choosing Melian...or possibly being chosen BY her?...was the best thing that ever happened to him.

Odd how they always meet in the woods though...

[gate7ole]

If those were Thingol's intentions, it would be different, but he was jealous of the Ñoldorian princes. Finwë was his friend, and he didn't have the courtesy of hearing the sons of his friend? What a great friend. At that time, they didn't know of the Kinslaying of Alqualondë.
Right. There was no prudence here, just plain jealousy. Thingol wouldn’t accept so many new princes to doubt his power over Beleriand. But it is told by someone (of the Fëanorians if I remember correctly) that Thingol would have been trapped inside his realm if the swords of the Noldor hadn’t come at the right time to drive Morgoth back.
I understand it, as another example of the general phenomenon that power corrupts and makes people arrogant.
How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy?
That reminds me of sth that Tolkien said in one of his letters, about the similar subject of Man-Elf marriage:
But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Right. There was no prudence here, just plain jealousy. Thingol wouldn’t accept so many new princes to doubt his power over Beleriand. But it is told by someone (of the Fëanorians if I remember correctly) that Thingol would have been trapped inside his realm if the swords of the Noldor hadn’t come at the right time to drive Morgoth back.
I understand it, as another example of the general phenomenon that power corrupts and makes people arrogant.


I beg to differ, but there was some prudence in Thingol not wanting to admit (all) the newcomers to his realm. I believe that a shadow of their deeds (disobeying the Valar, the Kinslaying) came with them to Beleriand, and that Thingol and Melian perceived it, even though they only learned the full story later. I do agree that there was jealousy present on Thingol's side also, but that is not the sole reason. I may not like him, and he may be conceited as all hell, but he and Melian took good care of their realm, and therefore their people.
And before you bear down too hard on Thingol, ask yourself this: Would YOU invite the Kinslayers of your brother's kin over to YOUR realm and give them a warm welcome? Thingol may have been an arrogant person, but the Noldor weren't much better either.

[Lhunithiliel]

I can understand Thingol in his reluctance to have closer contacts with the Noldor.
First - he had not been eager to cross the seas and follow the others at the time of the great march of the Elves. The beauty of Beleriand was the first "enchantress" he had met even before melian. Melian herself had chosen to dwell in Beleriand and not on the immortal lands.
All of a sudden, there come thousands of elves, ones from another house, all shining with armour, valour and "that" flame in their eyes...
Wouldn't have the much "simpler" king been reluctant to meet them? He would have.

Second - The hosts of the sons of Feanor and those of Fingolfin, coming from the North, were numerous, and accompanied by the first rising of the Moon and the Sun, and the victorious battles in the very first days in ME against melkor and his armies........ That could have given quite a thought to the wise king Elu-Thingol.
To openly state hostility? - Unwise! They are much stronger than me and my scattered and free people!
To openly welcome them? - Why should I?! Soon they might become mightier than me!.
To refuse them as his neighbours - Unwise! They are too many and too strong. Let them now fight the Enemy and his orcs while I, Thingol, will be safe in here!

Those I see as possible and more logical reasons for Thingol's behaviour towards the newcommers.

But ithrynluin, IMO, he did not know anything about the kinslaying. He and his Maia-wife could have possibly sensed there was something wrong.... but as far as it is known, by the time of the first kinslaying there had not been ANY other similar case known among the Eldar. Elved had been killed by Orcs and other creatures and servants of Morgoth, but untill the kinslaying no Elf had ever killed another Elf. Right? Thingol, nor Melian, could not have even guessed that THAT was the main curse and the hidden shame of the Noldor that could be somehow perceived.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Wouldn't have the much "simpler" king been reluctant to meet them? He would have.

Thingol is no less of an elf (in power) than the newcomers. He was a Calaquendi, who had seen the light of the Two Trees as a representative of the host of the Teleri during the great march.

Well stated points Lhun:), and everything you said about Thingol being jealous of the Noldor and their power is true. Still I am not against him completely in this case (though I otherwise dislike him immensely). A matter of opinion.

[Maedhros]

Thingol is almost the worst Elven King in Beleriand. His thinking is very simple and dumb. As long as my kingdom is safe, no matter if Morgoth rules everything else, then I'm ok.
Although Finwë was my friend of old, I'm not going to give his sons the courtesy of hearing them out, I will make the exception the house of Finarfin because we are related.

[aDaHe]

Originally posted by Turgon

How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy? [/B]

this i can reply to

it is a spiritual thing just as the arnur (sp?) are the offspring of eru's thoughts, they are beings of intelligence or spirit.

Thingol is almost the worst Elven King in Beleriand. His thinking is very simple and dumb. As long as my kingdom is safe, no matter if Morgoth rules everything else, then I'm ok.
Although Finwë was my friend of old, I'm not going to give his sons the courtesy of hearing them out, I will make the exception the house of Finarfin because we are related.
-by maedhros


no he wasn't

he cared only for his people and cared even less for the noldor after he found out about the kin-slaying.

his "stupidness" came from his possessing the silmarli and was thus bound to the curse of mandos.

[gate7ole]

posted by Maedhros.
Thingol is almost the worst Elven King in Beleriand. His thinking is very simple and dumb. As long as my kingdom is safe, no matter if Morgoth rules everything else, then I'm ok.
Although Finwë was my friend of old, I'm not going to give his sons the courtesy of hearing them out, I will make the exception the house of Finarfin because we are related.

Thingol’s foul reasoning can be seen also by his attitude towards the Edain. He was the only one of the Kings not to perceive the great help they brought to the Eldar. He just didn’t like them without any obvious reason.
I don’t know if this is a result just of his jealousy, or pride being married with a Maia.

Yet, I see some sympathy in Tolkien’s account of his death:
So died in the deep places of Menegroth Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor, with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril.

[Maedhros]

he cared only for his people and cared even less for the noldor after he found out about the kin-slaying.
And didn't even have the courtesy of talking to the sons of his friend.
He had a lack of perspective really. His thinking was, well, all ME can go to hell for all I care, as long as my realm is protected by Melian, there is no problems.
Wake up and smell the roses, that scenario will not have lasted forever. But you can't really expect much of Thingol really.
his "stupidness" came from his possessing the silmarli and was thus bound to the curse of mandos.
I think that he was born being stupid.

[Lhunithiliel]

Ooooo, common! Don't "make the devil blacker than he is" (we have this saying here ;) )!

I agree that Tolkien's not quite favourable attitude towards Thingol can be well sensed. And yes, he was jelous and impolite and...whatever you say (even what I did)...

But, you know, don't you think he resembles so well a politician? Yes! A skilfull, cunning, greedy, yet - wise and cool-minded politician! To me he does! ;) What he demonstarted was diplomacy of highest level! "Keep mine by all means and with or against whoever suits/doesn't suit (resp.) my purposes!"
If this is not diplomacy....!!!!

[Aiwendil2]

And didn't even have the courtesy of talking to the sons of his friend.


To be fair, it was only one son of his friend. Finarfin never returned and Feanor died before he could have talked to Thingol, even if either of them had been interested in talking. Moreover, these may be the sons of his friend, but it's a friend that he hadn't seen in thousands of years, and sons that he had never met, nor even heard of until now.

I think that he was born being stupid.

He certainly was not stupid. He was at times proud, jealous, and even spiteful, and occasionally unwise, but he certainly was not stupid. It was, if unfriendly, a wise decision not to mingle with the Noldor. Why risk the fate of his own people for some exiles and their jewels? Of course, he did not at first know specifically why the Noldor were dangerous, but I think we can infer that he perceived the shadow that lay on them.

[Ithrynluin]

Took the words right out of my mouth Aiwendil2...actually, you said it much better than I would have.

Of course, he did not at first know specifically why the Noldor were dangerous, but I think we can infer that he perceived the shadow that lay on them.

I'm glad someone agrees with me on that!! I was beginning to think I was completely off track here...;)

[Maedhros]

He certainly was not stupid. He was at times proud, jealous, and even spiteful, and occasionally unwise, but he certainly was not stupid. It was, if unfriendly, a wise decision not to mingle with the Noldor. Why risk the fate of his own people for some exiles and their jewels? Of course, he did not at first know specifically why the Noldor were dangerous, but I think we can infer that he perceived the shadow that lay on them.
Hmmmmm, didn't he do that then, risk being involved with the Doom of Mandos because of the Silmaril? Did he thought about his people then? He was the "King of Beleriand", but really only cared for his realm, the other parts of Beleriand could go to hell as far as he was concerned.
The people of Círdan could go to hell too, if not for the Sons of his friend that he hadn't seen in thousands of years.
You say that he's not stupid because he perceived that a shadow lay upon them, but what about the Silmaril quest.
:eek:

[Lhunithiliel]

A bit away from Thingol's "trial" ;)

I think nothing too much has been said about Melian herself, concerning her decision (I might be of course wrong).

I mean,

Why, do you think, Melian had chosen to stay in the mortal lands of ME and bind herself to a "lesser" being?

Could this by some "plan"? Could she have been sent and instructed to do this? If so, WHO might have been her Master and for what purpose would he/she have demanded so?
She was a Maia; Maiar, however were bound to the higher-standing Valar. Right? Then, could Melian have taken her decision completely freely, or could this have been somebody else's decision and she was to be the one just to execute it.... :confused:

What do you think?

[gate7ole]

Did Melian work following a plan and was sent by someone? I don’t think so, since Tolkien describes their encounter as the result of love at first sight. It is purely an action of love.
Yet, an interesting question arises, why didn’t they take their people and go to Valinor. Surely the Valar wouldn’t deny it. I believe Thingol should want to follow his friend Finwë. And Melian shouldn’t object to return to her kin. Why then, didn’t they pursue the voyage to the West?
One possible suggestion would be that Melian perceived that a higher doom was appointed to them and they should stay in ME. Or that they just didn’t care and were content to have each other.

[Ithrynluin]

It was love at first sight, but it was also part of Ilúvatar's plan to introduce a divine strain into the race of Elves, and more importantly - the race of Men (and thus enrich it).

[Aiwendil2]

Hmmmmm, didn't he do that then, risk being involved with the Doom of Mandos because of the Silmaril? Did he thought about his people then?

I agree that in this he was very much in error. Don't mistake me - I don't think that he is wholly a good, wise, character. Nor is he wholly selfish and stupid.

[kohaku]

I believe Melian was sent to middle earth for a purpose, to help combat the evil of Morgoth. After all, in the Valaquenta the Maiar are described as "the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers." It may be that there was no specific plan to begin with, but the result was her meeting Thingol and their subsequent love, and the power she gave to Doriath and the enrichment, as ithrynluin says, of the races of elves and men.

[Inderjit S]

I believe they may have gone to Aman evenutally, as Elwe didn't want to deprive Luthien of the 'lights of Heaven'. Though at the time, the two Trees were destroyed.

[Gil-Galad]

Is this the beginning of a Nightingale motive? It seems they play large part in the theme of lovers meeting in the woods. Melian and Elwë, Beren and Lúthien, and by proxy Arwen and Aragorn
Yes I do thing this is the beginning of a Naghtingale motive.What I have noticed also is that all meetings happen in the woods.Can we say that the woods are the "love place" for all creatures?

I'm struck my the similarities of these two meetings - the one almost seems presage to the other. It could be said that Melian was as far above Elwë, as Lúthien was Beren. Strange then that Thingol had no compassion for Beren's plight?
I think that was so because Thingol was selfish and proud person.He was immortal so he probably thought he had every right to marry even Maia.At the same time Beren was mortal,his ephemeral life didn't allow him to be as great as elves ,according to Thingol.What is more,Luthien was his daughter and every father is dreaming of the best for his daughters.So Beren didn't seem the best opportunity for Luthien.

How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy?
Of course there was some Maia gene.I think It was in Luthien's character and some of her abilities.The fact her mother took the form of elf probbaly determined the disability of Luthien to change her form like other Maiar and Valar,but nothing more.

[Turgon]

How was this Maiar blood was passed down to Lúthien? If Melian took the form of an Elf then wouldn't that make Lúthien of true elven blood too? Was there a Maia gene? Or was this more of a spiritual legacy?

Thinking back on this question some four years later, I still find the concept of a Maia 'gene' hard to fathom. Why would a spiritual being have a genetic code? Have I learned nothing over the passing years?

:)

[YayGollum]

What is difficult for fathoming? These creepily magical (and with magic in your nature, you don't need to make sense) Ainur things take physical forms. I don't remember reading that the physical forms were merely illusions. Therefore, when they put their clothes on, they've got genes.

[Turgon]

Sure, but if a Maia takes on a human form, wouldn't that Maia have human genes? If a Maia takes on elven form would it have elven genes? If the Maia takes orcish form, like the Boldog fellow would it not have orcish genes? Well you get the picture. That is what I find confusing about it all.

[YayGollum]

The answer to each of your questions is ---> Not necessarily. They are crazy magical thingies. Melian, although looking like some kind of especially pretty (at least according to some standards of beauty) elf, had the genes to stir up some terrifyingly powerful magic, something that most elves can't manage. Hm. But then, that might just raise questions about the nature of magic. I wouldn't think so, though. Seems like different races had different levels of creepiness that they could reach, with Ainur being towards the top.

[Bucky]

Sure, but if a Maia takes on a human form, wouldn't that Maia have human genes? If a Maia takes on elven form would it have elven genes? If the Maia takes orcish form, like the Boldog fellow would it not have orcish genes? Well you get the picture. That is what I find confusing about it all.

Well, Melian had to have 'Elvish genes or no Luthien.....

Who's this Boldog fellow? Early Silmarillion or role playing?
It plainly states in HoME that 'lesser spirits' did become a sort of 'super orc' or (actually) 'Orc-captains' who would re-appear after being slain. It would make sense that like Melian, when bound to a 'fleshly' shape that they could reproduce like she did.

But, this opens up a HUGE question that Tolkien himself seems unsure of the answer......

Reading his essays on the Origin of Orcs, it's unclear whether Orcs were 'bastardized' from Elves, Men or a combination of both - one must disregard the simplistic answer given in the Simarillion as Christopher Tolkien himself said in the Introduction that 'A complete consistency is not to be looked for' within it.

One must dig deeper into HoME to attempt (note: attempt, lol) to find a 'consistency'.

Furthur, on the subject of Maiar in flesh, actually, Ainur, we must consider that Tolkien switched back & forth on whether the Valar had children. At first, Eonwe was not 'Herald of Manwe', but his son. Who knows what Tolkien would've done in the final published form?

Another thought: Could Saruman, Radaghast & the (possibly) other fallen Blue Wizards have fathered children? Likely so, as they came in the form of Old Men.

One could almost imagine that Saruman might be the 'man' who mated with the Orcs to create the 'half-Goblins' at Helm's Deep or in Bree......

What a gruesome thought, but had he fallen that far?

Now, at the same time, the spirit of the Ainu or Maia obviously remains within these beings while in physical form......

Tolkien makes that quite clear as we see Saruman's spirit rise out of him upon death & be blown away by a wind from the west. Likewise, Sauron rising out of the abyss after the fall of Numemor. And mostly, Tolkien says there's a strain of Maiar in the descendants of Luthien, so it must be spiritual because JRRT also says Melian became bound to the physical form of an Elf for the 'love' she bore Thingol (i.e., they mated).

[YayGollum]

Why is Old Men capitalized? :confused: oh well. Yes, I see no reason for why any Ainur who decides to take the form of something that can obtain children wouldn't be able to. And am I crazy for thinking that fathering his own children would have made Saruman a lot less gruesome than getting some Dunlending saps to do it? oh well. He wouldn't have wanted them to grow up with some kind of immunity to his creepy voice power, anyways.

Towards Melian, though, Beren had zero elfish genes, too, and he somehow obtained a child through Luthien. Gasp! By what means? :rolleyes: I see no reason for why there couldn't be all kinds of crazy hybrids. Humans and elves work. Orcs, whether they're messed up elves or awesome amalgamations, still somehow work with humans. Giant scary god things work with elves. Seems like sentients work with sentients. Hm. A Warg and giant eagle hybrid... A kind of griffin? Cool. If it makes sense to anyone, I'll make a new character for role-playing! :D

[Illuin]

by Bucky
Who's this Boldog fellow?



He’s and Orc captain in the First Age. He’s mentioned in a few of the HoME books; forgot exactly which ones, being that they're all jumbled together as one big book in my head :cool:. Probably one of The Later Silmarillion volumes.


PS - Bucky, you live directly across the Sound from me - I can see the lights of New Haven from the beach, which is a stone's throw (literally) up the road.

[Bucky]

Why is Old Men capitalized?

Well, I have this habit I picked up from Tolkien Of capitalizing Men, Orcs, etc.... 'Old Men', I know was a bit much. :rolleyes:

I know Tolkien seems to capitalize races when talking about them 'proper', as we were, but not in the sense of 'several men & elve slid down the embankment to avoid the searching eyes of the orcs'.

I've also picked up the nasty habit from Tolkien of the run-on sentence if you've ever read my posts - They seem to go on at times for as long as an entire paragragh, growin, growing, growing, longer, longer and long, with apparently no hope of ever arriving at a concluding thought as they babble on seemingly incoherrently to (some) others, yet, if one would just keep focus and persevere, they will see the end of the race & understand the golden nugget of thought written for them, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow if you will..... :confused:

[YayGollum]

Got it, about the Old Men thing. Towards the run-on sentence thing, I am also guilty of it. I was muchly appreciative of the confused smilie thing at the end of your last run-on sentence, too, since I couldn't find the pot of gold at the end, either. :rolleyes: But Yay for a healthy ego! Not enough nurture the things. But then, I am wondering if you are also looking for the pots of gold in other people's sentences, no matter how long they are. You only really responded to my first question. :confused:

[Bucky]

And am I crazy for thinking that fathering his own children would have made Saruman a lot less gruesome than getting some Dunlending saps to do it? oh well. He wouldn't have wanted them to grow up with some kind of immunity to his creepy voice power, anyways.


I thought that was a retoracle question......
No, I just think that in answering your question, you're quite right, Yay. Folks would think some 'primitive' Dunlendings would be OK to do it, whereas Saruman being a Maia wouldn't be so kosher. However, in reality, Saruman could've done the job himself in the 18 years after Isengard was last visted......


PS ILLUIN: I actually live 10 miles NW in Shelton, but who ever heard of Shelton?