Can the Ring think

[The Dark Walker]

This properly sounds stupid but seeing the trailers have given me this thought.
One quote where Gandalf says "It (the ring)wants to be found"
Can the ring think it obviously chose Smeagol + Bilbo to find it so it could get home. In the book it even says that the ring abandoned Gollum when it was getting no-where.
Any-who just asking

[ReadWryt]

I believe that Gandalf was speaking figuratively. The Ring has a seductive component to it's power. It is useless without someone to wear it, and I don't, in my opinion alone mind you, believe that it has sentience per se. I think that what he meant was that, because the Ring's power lie in it being worn and used, and because once one wore the Ring one felt urges to do so again, that it "wanted" to be found in much the same way that a very comfortable chair "Wants" to be sat in.

It is interesting though that you should ask that because I began, after my second reading of the books, to think of the ring as a character unto it's self. It does seem to have some aspects that could at first blush be interpreted as "Life". It's ability to change shape and MASS for instance, make it seem almost to have a mind. I'm not certain that it's so much Mind as it is Will, if you take my meaning.

[Ancalagon]

Well done, what a tremendous question which I suppose is sub-consciously on everyones mind as they read hte books. I always imagined the ring to be an 'emotional magnet', of Saurons. If you imagine someone trying to move a penny across a table using thought as the driver, thats how I envisaged the ring. In the same way, Sauron is ever drawing this ring back towards himself.
The ring itself, is a powerful item, though without thought or will, yet destructive and deceiving by its ability and beauty. Obviously the powers held within the ring are those very same powers Sauron himself invested in it, so what the rings does is simply present the bearer with Saurons power, which none can manipulate to their own ends. These powers consume the bearer whereby their will is bent to that of Saurons. The ring is the catalyst for it knows no different.

[DGoeij]

I think you're both right. The Ring is one heck of a tool, but I still think it is just that, a tool. Sauron invested a lot of his power in it, wich made it potentially very powerful. But to think of it as having a mind of its own. Not based on what I've read nor on what I've felt during the reading.
The Silmarillons didn't seem to have a will of their own, but they created a tremendous havoc in Middle Earth. I think of the Ring in about the same terms. But who am I?;)

[Bunzy]

Good question about the ring, but i suppose everyone has thier own ideas about whether it's a conscious being or just a programmed tool.

If the ring could be conscious, would it know it was evil? And then would it attempt to be independent and use it's power for other purposes for greater good/bad? Or maybe go on holiday or something, who knows.

I think how the ring got into Bilbo's hands was just fate,along with Gollum and the other guy. The ring is a parasite, and therefore i think performs its evil ways naturally, just like a virus (i suppose).

[Grond]

What an interesting thread made more so by the fact that Walter, DGoeij and I are having this very debate in another unrelated thread. Now we really have a place to stir up the ole thought waves. The Grondmeister is researching this very matter and won't make a definitive post until he has facts to support his hypothesis.

I will, however, make a comment concerning the chair analogy though. No chair that I know of has had a Maia invest it with an enormous portion of the physical and spiritual being. So I don't think that's a fair comparison. I wonder, if having invested so much of himself in the Ring, if it did not yearn for him, much as a magnet would be attracted, always sensing (maybe in a noncognitive way that we can't understand) its master's absence and influencing those who come in contact with it to get back to him. At least, that's my hypothesis.... now, of to the books to see if I can substantiate my thoughts with the Author's words.

And, if the Ring doesn't have a sentient presence, then why is Grond, Melkor's Mace, posting in a Tolkien Forum. Surely, if Grond has conscious thoughts, surely the One Ruling Ring would also. ;)

[Gothmog]

Can the Ring think? To start with a straight answer to the Question. No, I do not believe that the Ring Can think.

I have posted on other threads that I feel that Sauron could use to some extent the power that he had invested in the Ring which is what allowed him to control the Nazgul and to rebuild his body when he returned to Mordor. If this is true then there would have to be some form of link between the two. It is my opinion that this link is what caused the apparent sentience of an inanimate object. What seem to be the will of the One is in fact the Will of Sauron calling the Ring to he who made it.

[Grond]

I'mmmmm back!! And loaded with ammo. I will start off with a quote from the Silmarillion in the Valaquenta, Chapter "Of the Maiar", "...Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin..." My quotes will concern Gandalf-Mithrandir-Olorin so I wanted to qualify that he might just know of what he speaks.

Now for the meat. The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 2, "The Shadow of the Past"... Gandalf-Mithrandir-Olorin makes all of the following quotes,

1) "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to some one else's care..."

2) "...It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him."

3)"...There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when chance came it caught poor Deagol and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it devoured him. It could make no further use of him; he was too small and mean;and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake and once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable; Bilbo from the Shire!" and finally

4) "Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it...."

In case no one notices, Gandalf is referring to the Ring as an entitity with some cognitive capabilities (it betrayed Isildur... inanimate objects DO NOT BETRAY!) Maybe no abilities that we can understand but abilities none the less.

There you have my argument with the source as none other than Gandalf, a goody two shoed Istari. One of "you" guys and not some evil moron such as Grond. So........ let's get started and make this thread "Rock and Roll"!!

[Gothmog]

The question was 'Can the Ring Think' I still feel that the answer is no. Inanimate objects Can Betray, Burglers have been 'Betrayed' by things knocked over or slipping out of their hands. Soldiers have been 'Betrayed' by tripwires, Inanimate objects can cause problems without planning or can be the extention of someone's will. I stick by my view that the will in this case was Saurons.

I agree that the Ring has abilities to care for itself and to answer the call of it's maker, these would have come from the power that Sauron put into it. So again I come back to the point that The will and the inteligence belonged to Sauron and was not part of the Ring itself.

You quote Gandalf saying that there was more than one power at work which means that at least one will was not in the Ring, but this does not mean that one must have been. I think that neither will was 'part of the make-up' of the Ring but that one was Sauron and the other was against Sauron.

[Grond]

Gothmog... not meaning to be argumentative.. but...I am!

"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo...", "but the Ring itself decided things. The Ring left him...", "The Ring was trying to get back to its master...", "...it caught poor Deagol...", "...it devoured him...", "...It could make no further use of him...", "...it abandoned Gollum...".

These descriptions by Gandalf sound like he's referring to a very "animate" object. How can an inanimate object decide something? I think Gandalf was speaking very literally here. I also find it hard to compare Gandalf's quotes about the ring to a burglar dropping a candlestick because the candlestick betrayed him. There is something much more sinister and real here and it definately has to do with Sauron. But did Sauron put so much of himself into the Ring as to give it an identity? Well, that's what this thread is about.

[Bunzy]

I agree with Gothmog. Just putting it simply, the ring can't think on it's very own. Forget about all those double-meanings that can be interpreted from some of Gandalf's quotes about the ring. Yes he speaks of the ring as though it is conscious and takes actions deliberately. Isn't he just metaphorically speaking? Using words that people are able to accomplish (betray for instance).

You could argue for ages, "metaphorically" the ring thinks, but logically it doesn't think. It hasn't got a brain. I can't think of anything that hasn't got a brain and doesn't think.

[Grond]

Bunzy, I'll directly contradict what you've proposed by Tolkien's own works and words, from The Silmarillion, Chapter 21, Of Turin Turambar, concerning the blade Gurthang, "...And from the blade rang a cold answer:'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.'" But, then again, maybe the sword is speaking "metaphorically"!:rolleyes:

One last thing to prove that the portrayal of the Ring as an entity was not based solely on Gandalf's quotes. In the Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, Page 295, and I quote, "...There the Ring betrayed him and avenged its maker, for it slipped from his finger as he swam and was lost in the water." There it is again, "...betrayed... and avenged... and slipped from his finger." Sentient actions from a mere Ring. Now, we can argue all day, but it's there for you to see with your own eyes both Gandalf's words and the author's himself.:rolleyes:

Busted!:cool:

[Beorn]

I believe that the ring doesn't think, but the power which Sauron put into it does contemplate the best way to get back to it's maker. Like two oppisites trying to get to each other (male<>female...north<>south), the ring is trying to make it's way back to Sauron because it wants to be complete.

--

If the ring could be conscious, would it know it was evil? And then would it attempt to be independent and use it's power for other purposes for greater good/bad? Or maybe go on holiday or something, who knows.

I'd say no and no. If you were brought up from the first day of your life being told that Tolkien was the best writer in the world, that he created a place, that he made the framework for all fantasies since his, and you were given his books to read, would you think that he is the best writer in the world? Of course. You would have no idea of what to compare against. You would be so rigidly attached to the idea (read "fact" :D) that Tolkien is the greatest writer of all time because you would never be taught anything else. The ring was never given any idea that it was evil...Sauron, and therefore the ring, would probably believe that it was good, and that the peoples allied with the Fellowship were bad.
I don't think Sauron would be stupid enough to give the ring the power to make decisions. Once you have the power to make decisions and you are exposed to the world and understand the world, you become an individual. As an individual, you can do whatever you like, and I doubt Sauron would want that, as peoples allied with the Fellowship would show the ring all the grief that Sauron was causing and sway the ring's "mind." This would seperate Sauron's powers into good and evil, which would not be good.

If you followed that, I congratulate you!

[ReadWryt]

You see? This is why I said that I thought that it didn't so much think as have a will. Obviously the Ring is Animate. It changes shape and mass for goodness sake! But as a Plant can change it's orientation over the course of the day to catch the optimal sunlight, so too does the Ring leave Gollum...IMHO anyways.

[The Dark Walker]

O.k badly worded question I admit but does the ring actually choose to go where it goes with thought out plans or does it just react to it's masters needs like an animal?

[Bunzy]

Darn you Dark Walker. You won't close the thread after all this debating! We're not getting anywhere and you keep asking vague questions that everyone interprets differently.
:mad:

[Grond]

RadWryt, to me, there is such a thin line between "think" and "will" as to be indistinguishable. And verbs such as "betrayed" and "avenged" seem to indicate some higher thought process. So where does "will" begin and "thought processes" end?

The clincher, to me, is a quote by Gandalf, I previously cited in this very thread which goes, "...It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." There it is, "decided". Decided seems a little strong word for just having a "will". I would think one would have to think to make a decision. (But of course, I never do, but you know what I'm driving at here.)

Besides, ReadWryt, a plant changes its orientation to catch the sun, as you say; but, when was the last time you saw it influence someone to dig it up and take it to Florida for a better climate? May have happened but I don't think so.

I will, humbly, bow out of this thread. I have fought the noble fight and humbly put forth my best opinions, supported by the book with quotes and narrative. Alas, it appears that it is an opinion few others share and I also appear to be unsuccessful in changing any minds. :o

So....... No! the darn ring cannot think! For Chris' sakes its only a hunk of stinkin' metal.:D :) ;) :p

[Ancalagon]

Ok Dark Walker,

You have heard a number of viewpoints from a collective of varied contributors. I think everyone has a valid arguement based on the wording of your original question. I, Grond, Gothmog and RW amonst others have stated our belief on the matter........Now what's yours?

[Lantarion]

ahem.. If I may cut in before DW..

I think that when Sauron created the Ring, he put a very large part of his soul, will, might, spirit and magic in it. This might mean that Sauron inadvertently 'controlled' the Ring. He was a very powerful Maia, and certainly had ways of 'roving his Eye' around his kingdom and elsewhere. Even though he might not have seen Isildur hiding from the Orcs, he had just lost the Ring and was straining all his will to 'tap into' it, and send it back to him. So the closest thing to this was slipping off Isildur's finger. But then it passed out of Sauron's knowledge completely, and although he still searched for it fervently, the Ring was responding by looking for a new 'master', who it (ie. Sauron's will) could control and make deliver itself to Sauron. So perhaps the Ring's power was in more than invisibility, and it had a magical mind of its own; I don't know. Many things do point to that, like how it corrupts, betrays or helps its wearer. I think it does have some kind of malign, evil conciousness of its own, which is partially controlled by Sauron.

[Bunzy]

Yes DW. Why don't you give us your opnion on your question(s)? And please, for the love of God the almighty, and the virgin Mary END this thread once and for all.

You could then start another argument about Hobbits or something.

[Grond]

Bunzy, have you not enjoyed this thread? I have found it both insightful and invigorating. It has forced me to look up information to support my hypothesis and everyone's input has been both intelligent and logical.

I want more people to find the thread and place their comments. This may be a subject without a definitive answer, but, God, those are the best kinds. These are so much better than those questions like "Where did Gollum find the Ring?" That has a definitive answer and requires no thinking of research. Get my drift?;)

[Bunzy]

Hmm... I suppose you're right Grond. Your philosophy is true enough about looking for an answer that is not definate.

You've convinced me to see why everyone here likes to endlessly give answers (of a sort) to a deep question.:)

But seriously I would like to know what Dark Walker thinks....

[Gothmog]

Grond, I was just pointing out that the word 'betrayed' can be used to include inanimate objects. The question asked was 'Can the Ring Think', this to me implies the ability to form a plan which I feel is beyond the capability of the Ring. It is my opinion that due to the will of Sauron the ring is able to react in a limited number of ways to what happens to it. Self-protection can be built into a computer program and so can other Limited Actions. And before you say that the Ring does more than this, we do not have anywhere near the power or the abilities that Sauron had.

And Bunzy, it is threads like this one that make you think more about what you have read and to get far more out of the books.:)

I also would be very interested in The Dark Walkers views.

[Grond]

Hey! Remember I've bowed out of this conversation... but If I hadn't, I'd probably quote Gandalf saying "...It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." For the Ring to decide that it needs a change would indicate that the little bugger had formulated a plan.

That's what I would have said if I hadn't already given up and stated that, "... No! the darn ring cannot think! For Chris' sakes its only a hunk of stinkin' metal.":p

[Walter]

I've been away for a while so I didn't get to catch up in time. Thanks for taking this over here, Grond...

A lot has already been quoted concerning the ring having it's own "will" or "intentions" so I can stick to interpretations without having to quote anything: All that has been said about the ring leads - IMHO - to two conclusions (ignoring the somewhat "strange" physical properties that it seemed to have - though I haven't found where the statement of "changing it's mass" has been made, but it sure would be an interesting aspect... ):

1) The ring had intentions of it's own, like getting back to Sauron - which doesn't necessarily imply that the ring has a "conscious mind" or was able to reflect about itself -, and

2) The ring has a massive influence on it's bearer, e.g. trying to manipulate it's bearer to put it on, slipping on or off the finger, etc.

But there has not a single statement been made here - nor did I find anything in the Hobbit, LotR, or the Sil - that leads to assume the ring had powers of either foreseeing the future or affecting it. So, the ring maybe found it's way to Bilbo in cave No976 under the misty mountains, but it surely had no influence whatsoever on the chain of accidents that caused Bilbo's presence in this cave...

Which leads me to the question what had happened if none accidently stopped by there, would the ring have just rotted for another thousand years or would it have made itself found again by Gollum and tried to "convince" him to get out the cave...???

[Grond]

In my not so humble opinion, I have given you quote after quote after quote to support my assertion and been rebuked at every corner by every member so... for all of you on this thread who think the ring is a stinkin' hunk of metal, I've got two words for you..... "Hard Heads".

***Grond has bowed out of this thread and is sulking back in the pits of Angband in a puddle of Balrog ****!***

[Bunzy]

End the thread Dark Walker.

[Beorn]

NO!!!

Don't end a thread that is going so well! Grond has given many quotes that have been fought against by people without quotes. Why? Because he actually does stuff and doesn't just speculate. No offense to those against Grond's evidence, but can you prove your views? He, I believe, is the only person who has given evidence. Everyone else has used "I think" or "I believe." Now the problem in this thread is the interpretation of these quotes. You musn't close this thread...

[Grond]

Mike B, thanks for your vote of confidence and you have idenitified my problem with the responses. My interpretation may indeed be wrong, but no one is challenging the quotes presented. As you say, let's see some dialogue as to why Gandalf said one thing but actually meant another. I'm all for debate, but identify some "fact" upon which you base your contradictory opinion, or have the guts to say, "I can't argue with the quotes presented, but I'm just not buying a quasi-intelligent ring who has sentient thought processes." At least then, I wouldn't pull out my hair wondering where there are flaws in my case.

I kind of feel like a lawyer that has proven my client's innocence by direct evidence in the form of "expert testimony" and yet the jury still convicts my client. Let's summarize this thread thus far as a trial reporter would in a trial.
1) Is the guilty verdict a result of the defenses'"expert" witnesses testimony or character?
I don't think the character or expertise of the "expert" witnesses is suspect.
2) Is it because a rebuttal witness has refuted any testimony?
No, the prosecution has called no witnesses at all to support their version of the crime. Just a lot of people who are extremely familiar with the case and think defense withnesses were mistaken in their interpretation of the chain of events.
3) Has evidence been offered that the client is guilty?
No, only supposition and hyperbole (such as an inanimate object may have intentions without needing thought to forumlate the intentions or to act on said intentions.)

I'd go on but I'm getting tired of trying. It's just a piece of stinkin' metal!!!

[Walter]

1) The ring is not just a piece of metal - whether it stinks or not I cannot decide nor have I read any quotes about that...

2) The ring is not almighty either...

3) Tolkien has given us some information about the ring. But not nearly enough to answer the question that is the topic of this thread with a clear "Yes" or "No". So - where exactly in between those 2 extrema given above its actual powers were, is up for speculation or intelligent debate, but will not be sufficiently covered with quotes alone!

----

The author of a book can only privide us with so much - quotable - information about a certain topic, subject or item. Everything in between this "framework" the author has given, is subject of personal interpretation and - more or less - intelligent debate of the readers.

If this forum were only about who has the better quote it would be rather boring methinks. It are the different opinions of the members that makes it the vivid and pleasant place it is...

And I would like to add one thing, especially for our younger members: debate about a topic like the one of this thread is not about who is right and who is wrong, it's more about how different sometimes the opinions of intelligent people can be

[ReadWryt]

Powerfully willfull, yes...complimented with the ability to form Ideas? I'm not certain. Why did the ring spend so much time in the dark of some inknown cave in the care of Gollum? What made it settle into the shire? I mean, it actually gained WEIGHT and changed size, ergo it could well have "Thought" of slipping away from poor Bilbo before he made it as far west, and away from Mordor, as the Shire is.

If it IS capable of thought, it is not very smart to have let it's self travel so far in the opposite direction from the one who it seemingly desired to return...

[Lord_Dracona]

Okay, I'll phrase it this way. When Sauron created the One Ring, he had to have spun some of his own evil into it to allow for it to think of one thing, getting to Sauron's finger, for ultimate control. This same thing could have also given Sauron a mental link to the Ring so as to see, and hear(though not to well of course) what it id, and thinking for it. When it was lost, he momentarily lost his link, though still he searched. This however, is my only possible explanation.

[DGoeij]

I've been away for just two days and look at all these posts. Ok, I've been fast reading, and Grond asked for quotes. He gave one himself (wich I thank him for), in wich I think lies some other ideas as well:

3)"...There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when chance came it caught poor Deagol and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it devoured him. It could make no further use of him; he was too small and mean;and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake and once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable; Bilbo from the Shire!" and finally
(Thanks to Grond)

Okidoki, Let's re-read the last half of this piece of 'hardest evidence' we are likely to be able to substract out of the works of professor Tolkien.
The Rings 'master was awake and ónce more sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood' So the Ring merely responded to the growing power of Sauron. Since itself contains a great (if not the greatest) part of Saurons power, it reacted! By no means I can beleive it is capable of making desicions of its own. It is the power inside the Ring that send outs it corrupting power, thereby having some degree of influence on its surroundings.

Now there's an interpretation of a quote, Grond has the floor.:)

[Ancalagon]

Which leads me right back to my original post;

I always imagined the ring to be an 'emotional magnet', of Saurons. If you imagine someone trying to move a penny across a table using thought as the driver, thats how I envisaged the ring. In the same way, Sauron is ever drawing this ring back towards himself.

There is no doubt in my mind that when Gandalf refers to the ring he is identifying it in the paradoxical sense, whereby he is giving the ring a persona in order to describe it's history. I do not beleive the ring was able to independently think of its own accord, it was however able to enhance, delude and manipulate the weaker will of any, other than Sauron.

Yet, it is generally accepted that with the ever-growing power of Sauron, and the increasing bending of his will toward the ring; the ring itself become more active, responding to its master, not with its own thought, but simply through bond. The ring is an extention of Saurons power, to the degree that were the ring destroyed, so would Sauron fall and all he commanded.

The two are inextricably linked, one has a will and design which has been invested through the power of the ring, the other is the personification of Saurons power, bonded to the will of Sauron, yet without will, corrupt, yet cursed in its fabric. The curse of the ring is to seek its master, whosoever carries the ring on its journey is a vessel that will be drained and discarded.

[Grond]

Thank you DGoeij and sorry Walter. I have been accused of being an "antagonist" on this forum and haven't really ever lived up to that title... until now. I have been playing an atagnoistic role to try and get everyone to 1)think about their own feelings concerning the Ring's capabilities, 2) Address those feelings in relations to the only information available in the book (the quotes) and 3) respond to my somewhat antagonistic defense of the Ring actually being a "character" in the scope of the book.

I actually agree with most of you that the ring really doesn't have a cognitively functioning brain. I, too, feel that it is inexorably linked to the will of Sauron because of the power he invested in it. When his strength started to grow again in Dol Goldur, the ring was like a power cell that had been operating on the "low" setting but which becamse reactivated as its master's own power began to regenerate. It "sensed" that its creator had "need" of it and was using what power it had, although not necessarily "cognitive reasoning" to accomplish Sauron's ends.

I apologize to all on this thread if I have sounded "antagonistic" or acted like a baby. I was simply trying to get everone to address the issues and think about this very deep topic.I didn't just want them to address their own feelings on the matter; but, how they as readers, interpreted the actually quotes, which were very concrete in the language of how the Ring was described.

This is an extremely interesting and insightful thread and I hope others will respond to the author's writings in fashioning their responses.:cool:

[Ancalagon]

Grond, I suppose I could put this reply in a private message 'for your eyes only', however I feel it would be wise to allow all members to view my feelings.

I am more disappointed in the fact that you feel you need to apologise to anyone who actively participates in these threads, that the fact that you may challenge openly those with a differing view than your own. I do beleive, and admire the fact that you are not antagonistic with your views, and for that I am dismayed at your need to show remorse.

If you were offensive, as I myself have been in the past, then I would understand the need for a public apology. That said, I think you need to continue to add your own blend of articulate, reasoned and challenging responses to these threads with the same gusto you have always applied.

One final point, as we say in sunny Northern Ireland; 'wind your neck in' and stop trying to be pious after the fact. Stay as you are, apologise if guininely offensive otherwise pull yourself together man! If the members in here could not deal with sharp responses they should not engage in debate.

Your friend and bane rolled into one.

[Walter]

I have only seen a single thread in this forum were I felt some members owed others an apology, but this surely wasn't the case with this one. I do appreciate threads where the participants are kept on their toes and i must say I enjoy this thread a lot.

Grond: I still can't see You acting in an antagonistic way at all, as a matter of fact I find your postings most interesting...

[Gothmog]

Grond, the reason that I stopped participating in this thread is that the debate with you that I was preparing for disapeared when you stated that you were bowing out of the discusion. As you were the only one to argue the case for the ring thinking, when you reiterated that you were no longer taking part I no longer had to try to prove my points to anyone.

[Grond]

Gothmog.... Never, never, never believe anything Grond says. Grond is evil, Grond is a liar, Grond is a hammer; and, Grond never bows out of a debate gracefully, no matter what he may say.:D

[DGoeij]

However I do not believe a debate on matters concering books only needs to be stated with quotes, this one was really agitated in getting my attention this morning.
It concerns Gandalf, I do not wish to argue about his wisdom, because it is clear enough to me that he is among the wisest in Middle Earth and that his knowledge about the Ring surpasses about everybody elses. But read this quote, it is in The Return of the King, chapter May Partings, before the home-bound journey reaches Rivendell (or Imladris for the Elves among us;) ):

(typing errors on my account)
Here now for seven days they tarried, for the time was at hand for another parting wich they were loth to make. Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to theit own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, cencerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shiny eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.
(end quote)

Now Gandalf here is capable of exchanging thoughts without need of spoken language. When he informs Frodo about the Ring he is doing so, because Frodo needs to pick up the message, right? I think that Gandalf thereby tried to make very very clear to Frodo what a dangerous and powerful Ring it was that the young hobbit had obtained. However he had to use words, and words are always a simplification of thought. In my view, Gandalf was as close to the nature of the Ring as mere spoken language could get, but thereby gave us humble readers an idea of a Ring with an overly amount of 'free will'
Maybe a long shot, but I have the feeling it does matter in this thread.

I'm gonna scream to a bush in simple Dutch now for a while, to cool down my superheated brain tissue.:rolleyes:

[Walter]

Well, well, well, my friends...all the explanations and interpretations I've read in this thread - including my own - are a bit far-fetched, so I shall come up with the most obvious answer to the question that is the topic of this thread

Q: Can the ring think?
A: Definitely not!

Explanation: The ring is made of metal. As we all know in metalline structures the atomic nuclei form a grid, the electrons of the outermost sphere are not connected to the nuclei - like they are in polar molecular bonds, ionogene crystalline structures, etc. - and can freely "float" through the body in what can be seen as a "conductivity band". Therefor metalline structures conduct electrical current. Conductors are not really able to "store" or "process" information like it can be done with semi-conductors or - in a higher level of complexity with organic-molecules.

Capisce?............No???

Okay - here's the short version:

The ring cannot think coz it's got no brains! :D

----
And for those of You who might ask themselves now: "Has the old guy gone completely crazy now?" here's the answer loud and clear: YES! ;)

[DGoeij]

You're talking to a flunked chemistry student here, so I'm not scared of you're long answer :p

Anyway. We're talking magic at work here, described by a human being, so science is an unappropriate tool in handling this matters as far as I'm concerned. It is the most obvious answer, strictly speaking I agree: It got no brains!

But then again, nobody ever measured, nor calculated the existence of gods in terms that were accepted by scientific standards. Still we like to speculate about them, and I intend to keep on doing just that. Science is cool when I fill up a car with gasoline, not when I'm debating about mystical magic. ;)

[Grond]

Walter, we always seem to be at odds. You speak of something very definitively and then Grond shoots it full of holes. Well, bang, bang....

Turin had asked Gurthang to drink his blood and the blade responded as follows (from The Silmarillion), "...And from the blade rang a cold answer:'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.'"

What is your explanation as to how this piece of stinkin' steel speaks? Wait, I know. This piece of stinkin' steel supposedly came from a meteorite and so had a non-brain form of thinking. Yea!! That's the ticket.:rolleyes:

[Ancalagon]

Does the ring think? I think I thought it did once, though I think now my thoughts were thoughtless. Thinking hurts, so I thought; it's time to stop thinking so many thoughts. Phew!

[Lord_Dracona]

Now, its simple and easy. even I have seen how some of you believe the Ring was created with Sauron's Evil, and you're right. Gandalf the Grey says so himself before becoming Gandalf the White. SO, if Sauron weilded his own evil into the Ring, it must have a 'personal' link with Sauron himself. So if Sauron wants it back, he WILL try to push his luck with one person. That explains why Golum had it so long, and why Bilbo had the ability to take it through his quest, and Frodo with his. That also explains how it changed Shape, Mass, and Size. It was because Sauron had gotten nowhere with the ring with Golum for so long, he wanted to keep it on the move. How is all the quest, and destruction of the Ring possible with Sauron's link to it? Well, think of it like this. When the Ring was chopped from his finger, it was lost, and so was some of his evil, and a partial link with his Ring. This is why it took so long for him to find it. Now, say this power was on and off again. Would that not be pure chance that The Fellowship gets lucky and they can get all the way to Mordor with only the Ringwraiths knowing of their location 1/4 the time? I believe this to be the best pssible explanation, though I don't have a great skill at making things understandable. This however should be how the Ring 'thinks' and functions. Thank You. -Lord Dracona

[Walter]

Grond: Not fair, not fair!!!... I'm still stuck somewhere at page 100sumthing and You quote from page 270!!!

Of course, in this case, I cannot guarantee to make a bulletproof, unbeatable reply, fully based on facts like I use to...*cough*, but here comes:

...But Turin far out-ran them; and he came to Cabed-en-Aras, and heard the roaring of the water and saw that all the leaves fell sere from the trees, as though winter had come. There he drew forth his sword, that now alone remained to him of all his posessions, and he said...

Have You ever been at a waterfall or some place where the water was "roaring"? After having out-run others?? When it's cold and the wind blows? You know where I'm drawing at; Umm,... I suppose,... I mean,... he must've been panting hard and his ears still ringin' and the water roaring, I mean, really, need I say more...?

Oh and, Grond *looking gravely at the hole in his hat* could You please be a little more careful with that gun? You could seriously harm someone someday ;)

*goes and prepares to get expelled from the forum for sacrilegious behaviour*

[Luna]

wouldn't the Ring be controlled by its maker? By evil?

[Tyaronumen]

Does the ring stink? :confused: :D

Actually, those who have said that the ring can not think because it has no mind are the closest to the mark, IMHO. Even among many western theological scholars, the human thought process (that considers things and says 'I') is considered a separate thing from the will/spirit.

I definitely think that the ring had a lot of "will"/"spirit" around it, but not any cognitive thought process...

[Grond]

Brain, will, spirit! Someone please tell me which of these allowed Gurthang to speak to Turin? Did Tolkien really mean Gurthang spoke or was JRRT speaking metaphorically again? I will say this.... if the consensus opinion is that Gurthang spoke, then everyone that has argued that the Ring can't think have a real dilemma on their hands... because their logic just got shot to hell!:)

[Walter]

Well, Grond - my answer depends on whether we are allowed to apply human logic in trying to resolve this last question or not.

If Your answer is "No", my answer is simple: Turin was halluzinating or not in the right frame of mind, or simply misinterpreted the noise surrounding him when he heard his sword talking...

If Your answer is "Yes" I must ask who delivered the words of Gurthang. Turin killed himself immediatly after the dialog, Gurthang "broke asunder" during the suicide and the followers were not yet around. Which leaves us to the water and the wind...

[Gothmog]

Grond, If we accept that Gurthang did speak the words:
Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.
Then we have to also accept that Gurthang was not only capable of speech but of thought as well. The reasoning behind this is that Gurthang could remember what had happened and could tell the difference between the Just and Unjust. However, this cannot be used to prove that the Ring did think as they are seperate objects that were made in different ways by beings of completely different powers and intents.

To use this to prove that the ring can think would also prove that ALL swords could think and speak as Gurthang could do so. You could also prove with this logic that as Frodo could speak Quenya All Hobbits could speak Quenya.

As for what allowed Gurthang to think and speak, I feel that in the case of the sword that part of the spirit of Eol that was put into the sword is the answer. In the case of the Ring I do not believe that Sauron allowed the Ring the ability to think only to react.

And before you ask. Yes I do think that Gurthang Spoke.

[Ancalagon]

So the question now is not, Can the Ring think? but, can inanimate objects that have a magical ability within them actually communicate or control the thoughts of those who wield them?

Answer me that!

[Grond]

Walter, I fail to see your point here. What has logic got to do with the absolute narrative given us by Tolkien. The ever-seeing, Creator of Middle-earth told us in a third person narrative which, to me, is not subject to debate. The Silmarillion is largely a third person history/myth. Much of the book is the same... a third person narrative telling stories, all of which only the writer (Eru?) could know..

The Tale of Turin is integral to this history/myth and if we question the author on this issue.... where do we stop? Who was there to witness all that went on between Beren, Luthien and Melkor? The three of them for sure, but they are not attributed the authorship of the Sil. So..... we're back to the question.. is it metaphor? or is it portrayed as fact? Once again, Grond feels the author portrayed it as fact. In his world, sometimes inanimate objects thought and acted. The sword speaks.... the Ring betrays..... the purse yells*!

So, I don't know if I've done anything else but given everyone more to think about... but, heck, that's what I'm trying to do!;)

* note... I had forgotten about the trolls purse yelling when Bilbo tried to pick the pocket of one of the trolls in The Hobbit. Another example of our favorite author not really meaning what he said???

[Grond]

First off Gothmog. I'm not using that analogy.. you are. I am simply responding to comments made on this thread that inanimate objects can't think or speak or do whatever. However, it makes the stretch of the Ring thinking and planning much easier to palate if you have other examples of similar behavior in the works. I have now cited three because I had forgotten the change purse in The Hobbit.

I am still just trying to incite, more insightful conversation and discussion of the matter. Mainly, because the more I research and the more I think about it... the more interesting this thread becomes. And apparently, I'm not the only one 'cause this debate has been going on for a while.

As for you Anc... this thread has already decided that inanimate objects, aka the Ring, can definately cause it's wearer to behave a certain way. The thread is about, does the Ring think? and an off-shoot of this question is your topic of influence, so your point is well taken and has already been asked and answered. Yes!!:)

[Walter]

Grond: we may disagree about a lot of things but I surely do agree about this one because it's my intention as well:
Originally posted by Grond
So, I don't know if I've done anything else but given everyone more to think about... but, heck, that's what I'm trying to do!;)

Furthermore, with my former post I was trying to slowly get to a question I really would like to see discussed here, and I am glad You picked it up:
Originally posted by Grond
The Silmarillion is largely a third person history/myth. Much of the book is the same... a third person narrative telling stories, all of which only the writer (Eru?) could know..

This is one of the most interesting questions at all. We have "traditional" mythology on one hand and we have Tolkiens "invented" mythology on the other. What do they have in common and where do they differ? And why is it they do differ?

[Grond]

Oooohhhhh! Walter you have finally busted my butt. I am totally incapable of taking up your debate. With my humble knowledge of JRRT's works, I feel fairly comfortable in discussing the world and mythology therein; however, I am wholly uneducated in anything but the most basic of Greek, Roman and Norse Mythology. (As a matter of fact, my knowledge of Norse mythology is attributable to Marvel Comics' "Thor".)

***Grond sadly sulks in a corner and plans to sit out the next few rounds***

[Gothmog]

Grond, if you were not using that analogy what dilemma do I have on my hands. I have argued that the Ring can't think. However, I did not say that it was not possible for this to happen, only that it did not. So how was my logic shot to hell?

Ancalogon,

Some such objects can communicate, such as Gurthang and the Purse that Grond remembered, but cannot control the thoughts of others. In the case of the Ring, there is nothing to say that it ever communicated in a way that could be uderstood by whoever posessed it. The way that the Ring reacted to what happened around it seems to point to it not actually controling the thoughts of those that weild it but to influence them along dark paths.

[Grond]

I will say this.... if the consensus opinion is that Gurthang spoke, then everyone that has argued that the Ring can't think ***because it doesn't have a brain*** have a real dilemma on their hands... because their logic just got shot to hell!

Sorry Gothmog, I left out the minor detail of ***because it doesn't have a brain***!! Are you happy!!:o

[Gothmog]

In that case you are using it to disprove the arguments of others. This it does very well.:D Therefore I withdraw my argument as it is now shown to be incorrect.;) In fact I now completely agree with you.
;) :cool: ;)

[The Dark Walker]

I don't really have a real opinion, it's just fun posting these questions that could last to oblivion:p

[The Dark Walker]

So do you want me to close it yay or nay?

[Ancalagon]

Absolutely not, DW. This is one of the more interesting threads on the forum. I for one am eager to have a crack at the 'Tradional myth, Invented Mythology question. Thing is, I am not quite sure how to approach it. Tricky.

[Grond]

Dark Walker, I agree with you but this debate isn't just about our opinions but our interpretations of direct statements from the Author in the works. If you review this thread, you'll find more than just argument... you'll see persuasive and insightful debate from all participants.

That's what these "deep" threads are all about..... "deep thought" and conjecture on what was the Author's intent. Hope you find these threads as interesting as the rest. Please don't close this thread!!

[The Dark Walker]

O.k I don't know how anyway.
And stop using big words they hurt!!

[Gothmog]

Nay.

DW these questions that you have fun posting are the very type that are the most fun to try to comment or argue on. I hope that not only will this thread be left open but that you find other equaly interesting questions to put forward. And of course the 'big words hurt', that is why The Hammer of the Underworld likes using them so much.:D

[Nimawae's hope]

Hey, Dark Walker, if big words hurt so bad, maybe you ought to take a couple of aspirin and go find a thesaurus to keep next to your computer. Oops! I'm sorry, I just said thesaurus! I hope that wasn't to big of a word for you. Are you in pain now?:)

[Ancalagon]

Dark, don't listen to them, listen to me. Big words SUCK.

[Moose]

When discussing things such as this, by that I mean "magical" rings, one musn't limit oneself to conventional thinking. Can "A" ring think, well the obvious answer is of course no. "A" ring is a metallic object without the obvious means for a cognitive thought process, i.e., a brain.

The question was, and is still, can "THE" ring think? Now we step from the rational world to the world of mythology.

Here is my theory on this mattter. The Ainur, sorry if I misspelled it, are spirits (as best as mortal man can describe them) and as such have no "brain" either, however they do have the power of cognitive thought. The only reason they appear to us in the shapes that they do are so we are more comfortable with their appearance. Their appearance is nothing more than a "vessel" for our benefit and not their true form. They could have just as easily taken on the form of a rock, for that matter, and still have the ability of cognitive thought. It isn't the "brain" that empowers them to think, but rather they are, IMHO, pure thought.

Sauron, being one of the mightiest of the Maiar, only took on the form he did as it suited his temperment, that of a Dark Lord, ominious and forboding. He could have, for the sake of this theory, made himself into the form of a ring and still had the power of thought. Instead he forged a ring and then imparted to, as in INTO, it most of his power, and thereby much of his thought. This would, IMHO, have given THE ring the ability to act upon it own desires and, having much of the power of Sauron invested in it, could have bent the will of those around it to it's own, thus it's ability to "grow on" the possesor's mind.

THE ring slipped from Isildur's finger when it saw the opportunity to get back to it's master, i.e. the rest of it's power, when Isildur swam the Anduin trying to get away from the Orcs. The Orcs were just to stupid to understand what had just happened. THE ring found it's way into the hands of Deagol, and Smeagol slew him to claim IT for his own. In the Goblin Cave, THE ring left Gollum's (Smeagol) in hopes that someone else would find it and it brought Bilbo to it as he wandered through the blackness of the caves. As Gandalf stated "THE ring found Bilbo".

So, can A ring think, of course not. Can "THE" ring think, you damn skippy it can.

Sorry for the length of my post. I hope I have made my theory clear as sometimes there is a break between my brain and my fingers as I'm trying to type.

[Gothmog]

If the Ring had desires of it's own then it is unlikely that it would do anything to get back to Sauron as he would use it for his own ends and not the Rings'. In this case the Ring if it were able to bend others will to "It's Own" would just take over the first person to posess it after Sauron, thats Isildur and then become a Dark Lord. the ring could only have limited abilities in this respect and would only be able to influence others either in small ways or over a long period.

When the Ring slipped from Isildurs finger it did not 'See' the oppotunity to get back to its master. It would have been better from this point of view to do so either before Isildur went into the river or after he climed out. This would have left the ring on dry land and better able to get an orc to pick it up and return it to Sauron.

Also had the Ring been able to Bend the will of another 'to it's own' then it would have made Gollum take it to Sauron when he was The Necromancer of Mirkwood. If this failed it could have made Bilbo do so as he was already going along the right way at that time.

So when I concider all of this I do not believe that the Ring has the power of cognitive thought but that the power invested in it by Sauron included the ability to influence others and to protect itself. The rest comes from the thought and will of Sauron. The Ring remained in the possession of Gollum under the Misty Mountains without doing anything until Sauron once more arose in Mirkwood and started to Bend his will onto the finding of the Ring.

[Grond]

Gothmog, I knew there was a reason you were the meanest of all the Balrogs. Melkor knew what he was doing when he made you their chief. You have given the best explanation yet of what I consider to be the "true" workings and machinations of the Ring.

Well done!

[Gothmog]

Praise from the Praiseworthy is truly appreciated. I thank you.

*Gothmog bows in acknowledgement to Grond*;)

[Walter]

Gothmog gets praised and what gets ol me? My logic gets "shot to hell"... *sniff, pout*

[Grond]

Walter, both you and DGoiej contributed mightily to this thread and are indeed worthy of praise as are others who have posted. It was the arguments and hypothesis thrown back and forth that made this thread so interesting. To everyone on this thread, Grond gives a pat on the back and a hearty, "Well done!"

[DGoeij]

*tries to get up without using his back much*

A pat on the back from Grond, just great. I could have done with the kind words:p

Thanks anyway. I side with Gothmog's words on this one. Great explanation.

[The Dark Walker]

Nima..ways hope, damn can't spell it ! Do not mock what you don't understand!

[The Dark Walker]

Nima..w hope, damn can't spell it, do not mock what you can't understand!:p

[Bill the Pony]

Just my few cents' worth...

Originally posted by Gothmog
If the Ring had desires of it's own then it is unlikely that it would do anything to get back to Sauron as he would use it for his own ends and not the Rings'. In this case the Ring if it were able to bend others will to "It's Own" would just take over the first person to posess it after Sauron, thats Isildur and then become a Dark Lord. the ring could only have limited abilities in this respect and would only be able to influence others either in small ways or over a long period.
Ring.

But if the ring had desires of its own, and could figure out all the consequences, then wouldn't it be smarter to try to get back to Sauron fast? If he stayed with Isildur, it would first have to corrupt him, before he would become a Dark Lord (Isildur might even do some Good before that happened).
And second, Sauron did not put all of his power in the Ring. IMHO it would be better for the Ring to complete itself, by joining with the rest of the power left in Sauron, rather than joining some stranger, with powers that are not related. (I'm not expressing myself very well here, but I hope you get my meaning)

However, I am not sure if it could think. I believe someone mentioned this already on the forum, quoting Gandalf that 'other forces' were at work when the Ring was found by Bilbo. If the Ring could think and if it was smart, would it not have chosen some Orc to find it? It seems to me that it would have been much easier to get back to Sauron in that way.



This leads me to a different question: If the Ring could think, and if Sauron somehow got killed without the Ring being destroyed (is that possible?), would the Ring choose a different master, or would it just become a normal ring without much power?

[Walter]

Woohoo - a pat on the back from Grond the "Hammer of the Underworld" - Not many survived this, I wonder if I'm supposed to recover at all... ;)

Seriously, what I had in mind with my posting "The ring can't think coz it's got no brains" was to try and encourage some "Out of the Box" thinking. I often realize that most of the members try to look for an answer about a given question only within the set of "rules" Tolkien gave with his books. Sometimes his letters are taken into consideration as well, but very seldom someone takes the freedom to look out of the box by "modifying" those rules or the framework Tolkien gave us. And if someone does this, there will usually be consensus among the majority that this is "not allowed" or "not applicable".

But nonetheless I would like to mention that even Tolkien himself did that at times, e.g. when he made the changes to "The Hobbit" so it would fit into the LotR story...

[The Dark Walker]

The ring would still have power cause Sauron put most of his in it thats way he wanted it back so much.

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Grond
I will say this.... if the consensus opinion is that Gurthang spoke, then everyone that has argued that the Ring can't think ***because it doesn't have a brain*** have a real dilemma on their hands... because their logic just got shot to hell!

Sorry Gothmog, I left out the minor detail of ***because it doesn't have a brain***!! Are you happy!!:o

My thought, Grond, would be that Gurthang did not _physically_ speak, because it has no mouth. Did not _think_ in the cognitive fashion that we are used to because it had no brain... but I think that it also had a "will" or "spirit" tied to it... and that this spirit impressed itself upon Turin, and thus "spoke" the words. Perhaps Turin's brain interpreted the will of Gurthang into word...

:D

[Gothmog]

Ok then Bill,

As I said before, If the ring had Desires of its own then these would not be served by returning to Sauron as it would then be slave to Sauron. It would make no difference to the Ring if Isildur did some good before being corrupted, more fun to be had later.

That which you put second only backs-up my post. It had to return to Sauron There was no choice.

As for Sauron being Killed without the Ring being Destroyed, This is not possible. There is a link between the Ring and Sauron, Sauron is a very powerful Maia. These two points make it impossible to Kill Sauron while the Ring exists.


Walter, If the framework is modified then the whole structure would fall, however, that framework is loose enough to allow far more scope for consideration of answers than the "rules" which I do not think were given by Tolkien allow. The Framework is the world of ME. The "Rules" are what some think the "Natural Laws of ME" are.

[Grond]

Ty, once again we're back to Tolkien not meaning what he wrote. I'm confused. With that analysis, how do we know what is meant as truth in the works and what is "subject to interpretation". But, I won't further that argument, instead I will once again bring up the troll's purse in The Hobbit. It spoke, even though it had no mouth. How do I know it spoke, because Bilbo and more importantly, the trolls, heard it speak. That, in fact, is what gave our burgler away. So, I'm back to my original statement and I guess we'll just have to disagree. I feel if the Sil states clearly that Gurthang spoke, the we must assume that it did. After all, we're talking about Middle-earth where swords talking, or ships sailing through the heavens, or Maia carrying vessels of the fruit of the two trees for sun and moonlight are normal and not questioned.

[Walter]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Walter, If the framework is modified then the whole structure would fall...
Originally posted by Walter
And if someone does this, there will usually be consensus among the majority that this is "not allowed" or "not applicable".

Originally posted by Gothmog
...however, that framework is loose enough to allow far more scope for consideration of answers than the "rules" which I do not think were given by Tolkien allow. The Framework is the world of ME. The "Rules" are what some think the "Natural Laws of ME" are.
Who else gave them, if not Tolkien? I mean after all, the LotR and the HoME are books, written by an author, magnificent books indeed, but books nonetheless, and written by a great author indeed, but a human being nonetheless. And we should keep in mind that we are intelligent readers not slavish believers. I am quite sure that if Tolkien would be still alive he would be quite impressed about how much discussion and interpretation of his epos is still done but also quite amused about how rigidly or slavish this is done sometimes.
Originally posted by Grond
...once again we're back to Tolkien not meaning what he wrote. I'm confused.
No one will exactly know what all Tolkien had in mind when he wrote his books. Some of it is revealed by works and letters published posthumously, but much will remain unknown. And - like I said before - after all it are books, nothing more, nothing less - and I seriously doubt Tolkien intended his epos to be seen as another "bible" or "koran" where we have to believe or we will be condemned...

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Grond
Ty, once again we're back to Tolkien not meaning what he wrote. I'm confused. With that analysis, how do we know what is meant as truth in the works and what is "subject to interpretation". But, I won't further that argument, instead I will once again bring up the troll's purse in The Hobbit. It spoke, even though it had no mouth. How do I know it spoke, because Bilbo and more importantly, the trolls, heard it speak. That, in fact, is what gave our burgler away. So, I'm back to my original statement and I guess we'll just have to disagree. I feel if the Sil states clearly that Gurthang spoke, the we must assume that it did. After all, we're talking about Middle-earth where swords talking, or ships sailing through the heavens, or Maia carrying vessels of the fruit of the two trees for sun and moonlight are normal and not questioned.

Well, the Hobbit also shows the Trolls speaking a dialect of English when clearly they were not in actuality. In the Hobbit, the Troll Purse "speaks" in English... are we to assume that this is so? No, we know that the Trolls do not know or speak English, but 'Westron' or whatever you term the common tongue of Eriador. It is not a far leap from this re-interpretation into English to re-interpret the higher will of a purse into legible speech, IMHO :D

[Deathknell]

The One Ring is an artifact of great power, forged by Sauron as a "controlling" ring so that he could in time bend all of the other rings to his will and thus control all the peoples of Middle-earth. So, it makes sense that the One Ring is imbued with great powers, which are part of Sauron's total power. Therefore, what I get out of this is that the Ring is almost an automatic device; it does whatever Sauron would do were he fashioned in the shape of a ring. It works on the emotions of whomever bears it and withers their spirit until they are utterly slaves to Sauron's will, or in the case of Gollum, utterly wretched and nearly insane with lust for it (which obliquely follows Sauron's intentions to the letter, since his ultimate goal is to corrupt perfectly good creatures and make them to do evil, thus destroying all that Eru had brought to be).

Sméagol, I think, became so wretched by it because he was weak-minded and rather simple to begin with, and had a penchant for selfishness. The power of the Ring made short work of him, hobbit-like though he may have been, because he did not have the purity and genuine good will of the hobbits of the Shire; but neither does he become aware that the Ring is Sauron's, nor does he undertake to bring it back to Sauron. This is probably why Sauron sent out the Nazgûl to find it in LOTR, since they are already imbued with great power of their own, and already wield their own rings; they aren't likely to try and keep the One Ring for themselves. Why Bilbo got a hold of it in the first place seems more like the work of fate to me, since at that time Sauron was still beyond the pale and he didn't yet know the ring had been found.

I vote that the Ring is not sentient, but that it contains enough of Sauron's power to manipulate and alter the spirits and emotions of mortal beings in Middle-earth.

[Grond]

Okay Walter and Ty..... Now I am really bummed out. Are you telling me that the purse in the Hobbit didn't speak. Heck, I got to go get my black out pen and ruin my copy of the Hobbit with magic marker. Let's see.... what page is that on????:)

[Luna]

Well said, Deathknell.

[Gothmog]

Walter, the point of my post was that the "rules" that cause some to react in the Rigid and Slavish way that you describe were not give by Tolkien but were mistaken interpretations of the far looser framework in which Tolkien wrote his books.

The Framework is what was given by Tolkien. The "Rules" are what some readers percieved within that framework and then used to try to limit the imaginations of others.

The reason that I said that:
If the Framework was modified then the whole structure would fall
is that the Framework is the basic Land, Peoples and Creatures of ME. If you modify these would you still have ME?

[Walter]

Well spoken, Deathknell, and welcome to this forum :)

Grond: Nothing, absolutely nothing I ever said, or will say, would be worth ruining a good book for it and okay, okay, I give in: The purse talked (p 35 in my copy/Roast Mutton ;)) and so did Gurthang - because Tolkien said it did. But did he say the ring "thought"?

Gothmog: I do agree with You there, I didn't clearly understand in Your first post what exactly You considered the "framework" or the "rules"

[Grond]

Walter, I am not furthering the assertion that the Ring thought. See my previous posts. I am just trying to get people to think long and hard about what is "meant" by the author when he writes something down. Tolkien used all kinds of "thinking" words when describing the Ring's actions. That, IMHO was to impart some of the "mystery" of the Ring to the reader and to emphasize the "link" between Sauron and his Ring.

However, I see the speaking of Gurthang and the Purse as completely different issues which were only brought up because a few posters said that without a brain or without mouths, objects in Middle-earth were incapable of speaking or thinking. These two examples disprove both of those assertions but don't really lend any credible evidence one way or the other for the assertion of this thread, "Can the Ring Think?" This is because the ring never talked and the only argument for the Ring thinking is the reference to the Rings actions which would indicate some type of higher intelligence.

I think we've all pretty much decided that the higher intelligence was indeed Sauron's will and strength which were placed in the Ring at its creation and acted as a magnet-conduit and made the Ring seek its Master without concious thought or reasoning. IT JUST DID!

Now, Walter, doesn't that just about sum it all up in a nutshell?

[Walter]

Amen, Grond

----

Hey - I agree with You, umm, let me think about this once again, I mean, I can't just agree with You, now can I? ;)

PS: Did anyone so far claim copyright for a book: "LotR in a nutshell"? Couldn't we make a small fortune with it? :D

[Ancalagon]

Good Call.

Walter, I totally agree, we could make something special. Only problem is, how do you split the royalties and marketing opportunites. Lotr in a nutsell; chocolate bars, clothes, kids lunchboxes.........the world is our oyster! :)

[DGoeij]

I'm in on the nutshell-summary by Grond. Good debate you all, opened up a lot of different views for me.

[Walter]

Hopefully we will be able to talk Grond into the writing, we should setup a meeting asap and discuss how to split the rest of the work. As for the money I will settle for 80% - for I came up with the idea - and I don't care how You all will split up the rest :p

[DGoeij]

Let Grond hammer on the remaining 20, it'll surely be shattered enough by then to easily divide it.:D

[SirNothingman]

this is an another interesting topic; can the ring think...I don't know and I will not add anything as not appear a fool but I was thinking about the talking purse in another earlier thread and tha is what interests me; the world we live in and the world we read about can boast of miracles and magic alike. The bible for example has talking donkeys, prophets calling out bears to kill children and many 'magical' things. Can the Ring think...I will yes and sleep on it

Good night from Denmark

[Moonbeams]

I think that the ring can think, but its thought are not of the ring, but of Sauron himself.
We know that Sauron put his own energy, his magic in the ring. The way I see it, he split himself in two. That's his own energy, his aura, his chi, whatever you wish to call it, in the ring. He had to put himself in the ring, so his ring can control others. So now, his body has half, and the ring has the other half of magic. Even with half of his own energy in the ring, when the ring was lost and away from him, he was a terrible creature. With the ring, he was complete, all of his magic with him again, and almost invincible.
Now, since the ring is part him, it also has his malice, his power of coruption of all that is good, his way of making people distrustful, making people see only evil and desperation. That also is Saurons power, as we can see from Denetor, and from what he did to the kingdom of Numenor.
The ring doesn't think for itself, rather Sauron is thinking for the ring, for he is the ring. I belive it's somewhat like our subconcience; we can't hear it, but it's there, and for sure it isn't thinking apart form us, but it's what we are thinking on a different level.

[SirNothingman]

It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The RIng left him...The Ring was trying to get back to its master.---Chapter 2:The Shadow of the Past

It is an interesting idea that the ring could make a decision to leave, that it grows and shrinks, that it had :"...given him(Gollum) power according to his stature."

It is also worth taking note how Gandalf reacts when offered the Ring and how Galadriel reacts to the ring and their understanding how they would wield power and how the power of the Ring would wield them. IT is a great philosophical discussion about the power of this ring not as one that would bound middle earth to Sauron but how the Ring tempts, seduces and challenges men WHOM think they have the will and power to own it. Yet a 'mans' character is used against him by the ring.

An amazing thing The Lord of the Rings. The more I read it, the more I feel the mytholoigical power of the story about the intrinisic struggle of good and evil at work in individuals as well as in society.

[Perhana]

If the ring "decided" it's own destiny, then obvously, yes, the Ring of Power can think for itself. To make a decision, someone or something first has to think of both the positives and negatives, so, I repeat, the ring did think for itself. Why and how? The world may never-know until we at last sail to the Grey Havens and discuss the matter with Tolkien and Gandalf themselves.

[Gloer]

It is intentionally left open whether the ring is a being that is evil or a mere device that makes the bearer evil.

At Emyn Muil Frodo puts the ring on and sees the red eye. There are four voices he hears. Sauron calling for him, a voice responding "Never, never!" and another " Sure I will come to you." (or something similar) Then there is a voice "Fool! Take it of! Take it of!" Frodo said the never part. Was it then the ring that said it was coming to Sauron or was it Frodo himself? This question is asked and left unanswered by the book. The last voice is Gandalf, which is not dead - but the reader does not know that.

If you are careful you will see that all the times that seem to hint the ring is an evil being in itself can be intrepreted in two ways.
The ring...
decided - the ill fate decided, the knife decided to slip
betrayed - the sun shine betrayed me to leave the unbrella home
wants to be found - the plant wants to be watered, it is more the nature of the ring than a concsious thinking

There is no reason why the ring should be sentient nor anythind that says it is not.