Debate - workbook

[gate7ole]

Here is the place to post whatever is relevant with the debate, but shouldn't be posted in the actual thread of the debate and destroy the flow of arguments.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Good. I will use this opportunity to apologize to Team A in the Saruman debate for posting first. I am a mess (no smart remarks there!). Both of my eyes have hemorrhaged from the continuous severe coughing which means they hurt and frequently I have problems seeing. Since I'm up all night coughing, I am not at my best at any time. So, having finished my argument, I decided to post before I am unable to do so.

Again, sorry for going first. It isn't the "done" thing when you are with Team B.

I also apologize to my team members for my deficient argument. There is supposed to be another debate, but I may not take part simply because I have a lecture due at the end of this month and there are just so many hours in the day.

Sorry.

[gate7ole]

Mrs. Maggott, I saw that you used information from the Letters in your argument. The rules say that only LOTR is allowed to be quoted. The others can be used for the debater to understand better the situation, but they must not be quoted or even referred. Since you were ill, I understand that you may not have noticed it.
But I hope that this will not be repeated by both teams.

[gate7ole]

After seeing again the teams more carefully, I believe that Team B is more experienced than Team A. So, I decided to enter the debate and help Team A. If this is ok with you, I will find another judge to replace me. If not, I will humbly return to my judging duties.

[Elennainie]

Since it seems that one of our team members won't be able to participate until Friday and another won't be able to participate at all, I would welcome the addition of another person to our team (Team A), if that is judged to be fair by Team B.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Mrs. Maggott, I saw that you used information from the Letters in your argument. The rules say that only LOTR is allowed to be quoted. The others can be used for the debater to understand better the situation, but they must not be quoted or even referred. Since you were ill, I understand that you may not have noticed it.
But I hope that this will not be repeated by both teams.

This may be against the rules as well, but I have edited my post of all material that did not refer directly to LOTR. I am sorry for the confusion. I was not able to "read" the earlier post too well because of my eyes, so I missed that particular reference and posted accordingly.

However, ASIDE FROM REMOVING THE OFFENDING PART OF THE POST, I MADE NO CHANGES TO THE ORIGINAL; that is, I did not "tinker" with my post in order to "smooth over" or otherwise "fix" the editing. What remains in the post is exactly what was posted. Only the material which was contrary to the rules was removed.

Unfortunately, I may not have much time to spend today, so although I pm'd the moderator asking for permission to edit, I decided to do it now lest I not have the opportunity to do it later.

Again, I am sorry for missing that particular caveat in the debate. It never rains but it pours, as they say.

[Elennainie]

Oh, is it not o.k. to edit one's post in a debate? Sorry, I did to change a formatting of a quote and to add the shake hands part. No one else has posted yet a response, though, so you can tell I did not edit mine in response to anything.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Elennainie
Oh, is it not o.k. to edit one's post in a debate? Sorry, I did to change a formatting of a quote and to add the shake hands part. No one else has posted yet a response, though, so you can tell I did not edit mine in response to anything.

As far as I know, there should be no problem editing a debate post before anyone else posts since it couldn't conceivably seen as "changing" the post in response to a later point.

However, given the fact that I missed an elephant in the rules, don't go by my fine ability to reason cogently! Sigh.............

[Elennainie]

O.k., thanks, Mrs. M.

Here is a nice picture to get us in the mood for our debate:
http://www.warofthering.net/gallery/ingeredelfeld/imagepages/image8.shtml

[Hirila]

So now let us make up a new rule to end this confusion about editing etc.

--> It is allowed to edit your posts!
But only as long as NOONE HAS REPLIED to it.
The following posts refer ONLY to the last version of the post they saw when posting. Remember: it is able to see wether a post has been edited after the following post has been made.

I hope we will not have to look if anyone has broken that rule. It is only a rule of fairness, here in a written form.

Have fun debating!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Hirila
So now let us make up a new rule to end this confusion about editing etc.

--> It is allowed to edit your posts!
But only as long as NOONE HAS REPLIED to it.
The following posts refer ONLY to the last version of the post they saw when posting. Remember: it is able to see wether a post has been edited after the following post has been made.

I hope we will not have to look if anyone has broken that rule. It is only a rule of fairness, here in a written form.

Have fun debating!

I acknowledge having edited my post after a reply had been posted, but it had nothing to do with the reply and, in fact, I did not read same at the time I edited my post. I removed from my post such material as I was assured was disallowed in a post on this thread by a moderator. Since the material was disallowed, I had one of two choices: leave it in (which broke the rules) or take it out (which broke the rules). Since the only editing done was the removal of the offending text and NONE OF THE REMAINING TEXT WAS ALTERED IN ANY WAY - I decided that it broke the rule to a lesser degree by removing it.

However, it may be that the entire post should now be disallowed. If that is so, then I suggest that it be removed by the moderator and that someone else on Team B be allowed to post again or that the team be penalized by having one less post (in that case, I again apologize to my team members for not seeing all that well when I read the "groundrules"). The mistake was entirely mine and I would hate for my team to be penalized for it, but rules is rules, as they say. I will simply await whatever the moderators care to decide and leave it to you all.

[Elennainie]

Since the only editing done was the removal of the offending text and NONE OF THE REMAINING TEXT WAS ALTERED IN ANY WAY If it helps, Mrs. M., I printed out your original post before you edited it, and I can vouch for you. I completely agree that the only thing you changed was that you removed the paragraphs about the Letters and the "Complete Guide to Middle-earth".

I'm sure it doesn't matter anyway. No one is accusing you of doing wrong. Besides, you are sick. You should rest and not worry about this stuff. ;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Elennainie
If it helps, Mrs. M., I printed out your original post before you edited it, and I can vouch for you. I completely agree that the only thing you changed was that you removed the paragraphs about the Letters and the "Complete Guide to Middle-earth".

I'm sure it doesn't matter anyway. No one is accusing you of doing wrong. Besides, you are sick. You should rest and not worry about this stuff. ;)
I understand; I know that no one accused me of anything (you guys are all too nice for that anyway!) I am just aggravating myself for being so dull witted (which I am when I'm feeling reasonably swift!). If I had read the rules more carefully, I could have saved myself the work of the quotes (I do my work "off net" and then cut-and-paste) and done a better intro. As it is, I was only trying to sound "erudite" - yeah............

Anyway, I just want to do it right for all concerned. The Guild is important because it is the Guild as opposed to being the rest of the forum. In the Guild, we are all responsible to one another. If I make "the south end of a north bound horse" out of myself out on the rest of the forum, who cares? If I do it here, I let "the troops" down - and I don't want to do that! Call it "loyalty", but there it is!

[gate7ole]

I would like to inform you that I joined Team A, but I will not participate until I see that there is little attendance.
I will find a judge to replace me.


PS. About the editting of your post Mrs. Maggott, don't take it too seriously. There are no strict rules.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Is there a place to post debate topic suggestions for consideration and, if so, what is it named? It might be good to have something like that ongoing if in fact one does not presently exist so that anyone who gets a really good idea in the middle of the night can post it.

Thanks.

[gate7ole]

At the guild of Ost-in-edhil there is such a place, “The Question Bank”. I would suggest everyone who comes up with an idea late at night, (like Mrs. Maggott), to post there. There is no need to start a similar thread here.

[Hirila]

In fact we already have such a place here: The Round Table!
Lhun opened it as exactly such a place where topics could be told "in the middle of the night" (if sucha time exists on a world wide forum).

And you didn't break any rules Mrs. M. You did only what was fair. Fairness is the only real rule in a debate here, if you ask me.

[Elennainie]

Where is everyone?!!? Do debates generally progress this slowly? Mrs. M. and I have both posted. Let's get some action on that thread! :p

[gate7ole]

Where is everyone?!!? Do debates generally progress this slowly? Mrs. M. and I have both posted. Let's get some action on that thread!
Hello debaters! Anyone interested in posting at the debate?

[Anamatar IV]

I am still in the process of reading those two superly long posts;)

I'll start posting once I finish up my research....meaning over the weekend when I have more time than 10 minutes to crack open RotK:)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Hello debaters! Anyone interested in posting at the debate?

I can always submit a few more unrelated and disallowed quotes just to pass the time, that is. You know me! Always helpful!! :p

[Finduilas]

Are we allowed to post seperate posts, I mean without sharing them with the members or there is only one person from each team who has to post?:confused:

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Finduilas
Are we allowed to post seperate posts, I mean without sharing them with the members or there is only one person from each team who has to post?:confused:

Oh dear, that was a joke! My sense of humor must be getting horribly obscure! It was only meant to "lighten up" the situation. I am sure we get to post once per debate unless it has been previously decided to allow each member to post more than that. But, of course, I could be wrong - after all, I do it so well, don't you know!

:confused: :rolleyes: :eek:

[Finduilas]

Oh dear, that was a joke! My sense of humor must be getting horribly obscure! It was only meant to "lighten up" the situation. I am sure we get to post once per debate unless it has been previously decided to allow each member to post more than that. But, of course, I could be wrong - after all, I do it so well, don't you know!

Oh, I'm sorry, I knew you were joking;)
I just wanted to ask because it is my first debate and I do not exactly know what to do.
So we can post only one post, right?

[gate7ole]

Everyone is allowed to post as many times as s/he wants.
The posts don't need to be lengthy. Simple posts that answer an argument of the opposite team are also welcome. And someone can post without the consent of the team-mates.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Everyone is allowed to post as many times as s/he wants.
The posts don't need to be lengthy. Simple posts that answer an argument of the opposite team are also welcome. And someone can post without the consent of the team-mates.

Live and learn!:rolleyes:

[Finduilas]

Thank you. I will.;)

[Gil-Galad]

Finduilas,and let the Valar be with you during your first debate!!!:) :)

[gate7ole]

The debate is prolonged for a few days until Wednesday 19 of February.
Both teams should post their final posts by then.
Thank you.

[Hirila]

It is not with pleasure that I have read through the arguments in the debate.
They came slowly and viscously, like tar. Noone seemed to have fun debating.

And there are no concluding posts.

To tell the truth I don't have much inclination to judging the debate. Of course I will do so.

I don't know what has prevented your posting. I'll say it was because none of you had much time really discussing it. The topic itself had many points you could hav taken up and discussed thoroughly, there are even points you could fight over.

I'll give you more later.

And if gate7ole and Lhunithiliel agree with this, I'd say we give each team one last post, where they can summarize their arguments, comment their opponents for the last time and conclude the debate.

[Melian]

I'm sorry we disappoint you.
And since I'm one of those late debaters, I think I owe you an apology more than anyone.
First, I'd like to point out that I do have fun posting in here, but I don't have much time in general. I'm extremely busy, only visit TTF once or twice a week and maybe doing a debate was just not for me. So sorry for being an insufficient debator.
And then, I would say that thtere are many active participants (all those who posted at once), and that they are not to blame for the delayed posts.

Well, you can ignore what I said, 'cause responsibility is responsibility and I should have squeezed some time for preparation. But believe me, I'm truly sorry and had no idea how a debate is done.:(

[Hirila]

It is not the few participants that disappoint me. It's rather the lack of fun. There were no lively discussions. And it is not the form that makes a debate, but the contents, the arguments, the participants.

No, I'm not disappointed. We made an effort to reinstitute debates here and let the members learn how to debate. That way we could get better with every debate and be a worthy opponent for the Guild of Scholars.

Perhaps next time, heh! I look forward to it! I'll give my judgement to that one tomorrow.

[gate7ole]

I will also give my judge by the end of the week-day.
If the teams wanted to post a conclusion, I gues they would have done in by now, so there is no need to give more time.

[Lhunithiliel]

I will post my opinion on Sunday. OK? :)

[Gil-Galad]

....hm we will be waiting........:rolleyes:

[Finduilas]

I want to apology too and since the term has already finished and I will have more time I'm looking forward to the next debate where I promise I'll try to make it more 'lively'.:)
Sorry, anyway, but I think that now this one, my first one, has made me more experienced. Actually, it learnt me how to participate in a debate.
So there is something I'd like to ask- when is the new debate starting?:)

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Finduilas
So there is something I'd like to ask- when is the new debate starting?:)
A new debate will start if sufficient people are willing to participate (and the last one is judged).

[gate7ole]

Judgement of the debate

Points for Team A
+ The debaters of Team A used the spreading of Shadow as general in ME
+ They showed that the ruffians had the means and incentive to continue what they did.
- They didn’t show if some of those ruffians were capable of leading and deciding.
- They didn’t mention that the Rangers were absent at the time and were left unprotected, even by simple ruffians.
- The fact that the Shire-hobbits had a very long time of peace which made them soft was only touched.

Points for Team B
+ The debaters of Team B mentioned the breaking of trade with Saruman, which might make them reconsider their affairs at Shire.
+ They showed that the cunningness of Saruman was behind almost every hateful action.
- They didn’t explain why the reaction of the hobbits would be different without Sharkey
- They didn’t prove efficiently (quoting) that the Southrons were actually a mob.

As it can be seen, both teams touched only a part of their possible arguments. So, I have to call it a draw.

[Ecthelion]

I'll debate in the next debate if I'm allowed to.

[Lhunithiliel]

First of all, let me thank all the participants in the debate!
I know that for all of them this was their first debate! :)

I however am sorry for the incomplete character of the whole debate-discussion, for obvious lack of activity.
Perhaps it is becuase some of you simply don't have a constant access to a computer/Internet, perhaps because you just did not know how to "behave" in a debate...

Anyway, you did WELL! :)

In order to be objective, I even did not follow the posts while the debate was still going on. Neither have I read the opinions of Gate and Hirila. I'll do this AFTER I post the present.
(I saw Gate has posted his opinion, but I HONESTLY!) haven't read it!
Anyway, after reading the arguments posted by both teams, I would say that neither of the teams could convince me in their position.
There were very good arguments posted from both sides, but they...sort of ...did not get further development. Nor these were seriously and fully opposed by the opponents!

So, I find it impossible to give preferences to one of the teams.

I have decided - A DRAW!
*************************

I would finally want to wish you good luck in future debates!
We shall meet again! And I'm not going to be a judge always! ;) :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, now i have read gate's opinion...
A draw - he says... although he gave 3 "-" to Team "A" ;)

Let's see Hirila's opinion.

[Ecthelion]

When's the next Debate going to be?

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
When's the next Debate going to be?
As I said, the a new debate will start when a sufficient number want to participate.
Anyway, it must be some time after the last debate.

[Mrs. Maggott]

I would like to participate in the next debate, but I would also like some time to know the premise and what side I would be debating so that I could develop a position with some backup reference material. It's a little "much" to try to develop a well considered position in a very short period of time especially if the premise is somewhat esoteric and my time schedule hectic (as usual).

As far as the debates go, perhaps we could all do with sufficient lead in time and then a time limit for each side to post its positions. For instance: premise and teams posted on Day 1 (including which side each time is on, naturally). Teams then do not begin to post until Day 5, but once posting begins, each team must post within one to two days after the last post by the other team until all members of the team have posted. If Team A fails to post within that 1-2 day period of time, they lose that post and Team B may post again as if Team A had in fact posted. (To prevent a team from being handicapped if a member is unable for some reason to post, the moderater could consider allowing a member who has already posted to "fill in" for the missing member; this would insure that each Team has the same number of posts).

The above schedule would continue until "x" number of days had passed (that is, 1 to 2 days per post) depending upon the number of team members. This type of system would insure that a debate would only last say 12 days if each team has 6 members or 10 if 5 member and so forth. The ability for a Team member to post more than once if for some reason another member is unable to post would keep the debate somewhat even, but if that is not acceptable, then in order for these debates to have a reasonable time span, the moderator(s) must be willing to allow the Teams to post unevenly.

Certainly, the idea is to have a debate progress on as equal a footing as possible. But it is also essential that these things have an end that isn't just petering out as people lose interest. If we have time limits within which to post and someone is not going to make that time limit, then the only thing the moderator should determine is if he/she will permit someone who has already posted to step in and "fill" the post. If not, then the Team that has failed to post, should and must lose its turn or these debates will simply stretch out interminably and the interest level in both the instant debate and continuing the debate format will diminish to nill.

[gate7ole]

Mrs. Maggott, I'm sorry to say that you have not understood the point of the debates. The debates are not strictly defined by rules and regulations, about who's turn is to post, who has answered or not. They have intentionally loose rules.
Please check the on going debate of our guild against the Scholars. Many times, debaters of the same team, post consequetively, other times only two debaters post for a while to "solve" a dispute between them.
Debates are very flexible and only need a code of conduct so that there won't be personal attacks. Besides this, I could even say that everything is permissible (except using books not allowed).
Thus, what you say about setting those rules is IMO not needed at all.
And about the time, I think that the debate that just finished had the longest preparation and execution time. There were 5 days for preparation and about 2,5 weeks of actual debate time. Both numbers are far greater than those of past debates.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by gate7ole
Mrs. Maggott, I'm sorry to say that you have not understood the point of the debates. The debates are not strictly defined by rules and regulations, about who's turn is to post, who has answered or not. They have intentionally loose rules.
Please check the on going debate of our guild against the Scholars. Many times, debaters of the same team, post consequetively, other times only two debaters post for a while to "solve" a dispute between them.
Debates are very flexible and only need a code of conduct so that there won't be personal attacks. Besides this, I could even say that everything is permissible (except using books not allowed).
Thus, what you say about setting those rules is IMO not needed at all.
And about the time, I think that the debate that just finished had the longest preparation and execution time. There were 5 days for preparation and about 2,5 weeks of actual debate time. Both numbers are far greater than those of past debates.

I realize that debates are not about "rules and regulations" - although certainly they have to have structure (including what books may or may not be used as reference works) - but it has been noted that the debates seem to become unfocussed and lacking in energetic response. Hence I thought that having a "time limit" during which to prepare and to respond might "facilitate" the debate itself.

Of course, I am rather used to debates where each team has a certain number and each team member is supposed to post before any team member may post again. I don't necessarily see that as bad simply because if one may post whenever one wishes, the debate runs the risk of becoming a dialogue between two members on opposing sides who may develop a particular point within the debate to the exclusion of various other points of view. Still, if that is how debates are held within and among the Guilds, I have no problem with that.

My response had to do firstly with offering my participation in the next debate unless better and more learned Guild members are available in which case I will happily remain a spectator. Secondly, my response was an attempt to address which is apparently the keen disappointment felt by those judging and viewing the debate. But, of course, my suggestions are just that - suggestions.

[Hirila]

Now it is my turn to apologize. I have been away for some days, on a wedding and in Switzerland, skiing. (Was great! great! great!)

Now, here is my judging:

Content:
Team A had a good start, beginning with the changes Lotho had caused (under Saruman's influence obviously). it is the same when the ruffians are said to have caused the situation.
These are the strongest arguments. But then it was said that Hobbits would be ignorant and thus unable to resist evil. This so-called "ignorance" of what is going on in the wide world may also be a point of strength: they are ignorant of the real on-goings and thus are not easy to be influenced by things/persons from the outside. Sad enough Team B didn't take this up.
Team B had their strongest argument in saying that the hobbits were not defenseless at all and had the power of and trade with Isengart ceased after Saruman's downfall they could have easily risen against the Chief.

I am sorry to tell that TEAM A has won the debate by content.

Though Team B also had quite good arguments they didn't make the most of it. But even Team A wasn't really superior. They only made the most of what little they used.


Form:
I have missed the usual to and fro of arguments, the commenting of opponents' posts. The debate lacked spirit and drive. I am sorry to tell you so. Therefore there is no winner in this category.


I know it may sound surprising that I have decided in favour of Team A, but my general view was, that they used their arguments better.

[Hirila]

To give my opinion on debates:
As far as I know something about debating, it is a very strict form of discussing a topic in a given time. Team members are numbered and the first begins until the last gives a conclusion. This is in change with the members of the other team, so that Team A begins and Team B concludes the debate. There are strict rules you have to follow.
But this form of debating is not possible on the internet. Due to time limits (You use parts of your spare time coming here; in a "normal" debate there is nothing that can call you away for the time of the debate.), due to internet access problems these form cannot be given to a debate, unless you want to last it for weeks. And noone can concentrate on a topic for weeks. Internet debates really need only a light corset of rules. Nothing severe, a code of conduct, like gate7ole said.

[Gil-Galad]

I would like to say that the debate was a difficult one.The topic was not clear enough,and Melian and I wondered long time what to do.
Another fact for the bad results I think is that new "debatetors" took part in it.What is more,I think more people should take part in the debates.

Finally I want to suggest a new topic for debate.I think it is interesting and there are lots of materials for both teams.So the topic I suggest is:
Who is guilty for the "divorse" between Erendis and Aldarion
TEAM A:It was Aldarion's fault TEAM B:It was Erendis' fault.
I hope you will like the topic I suggest.If you think there should be some changes make them!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I would like to say that the debate was a difficult one.The topic was not clear enough,and Melian and I wondered long time what to do.
Another fact for the bad results I think is that new "debatetors" took part in it.What is more,I think more people should take part in the debates.

Finally I want to suggest a new topic for debate.I think it is interesting and there are lots of materials for both teams.So the topic I suggest is:
Who is guilty for the "divorse" between Erendis and Aldarion
TEAM A:It was Aldarion's fault TEAM B:It was Erendis' fault.
I hope you will like the topic I suggest.If you think there should be some changes make them!
I must agree with Gil-Galad and I apologize to both my team and the Guild for failing to contribute sufficiently to the last debate. I will will not participated in the debate suggested and watch those who know how to do it so that when the next debate comes, I will be better prepared to assist those on whose team I find myself. Live and learn, so they say. :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

G-G, I LOVE the proposed topic!!!!!!!!!!!

I am in - in full favour of Aldarion (OF COURSE! ;) )

Who else?

Gate, will you administer the debate, please?

[gate7ole]

As I said, a new debate can start when there is a sufficient number of participants. Until now, Ecthelion, Gil-Galag and Lhunithiliel have expressed their will to participate. We need a few more.
(The topic of Aldarion and Erendis is wonderful, but I hope that the fact that it is from UT won’t put off the guild members)

[Ecthelion]

I have not yet read UT so if that is the topic I dont know how much help I would be.

[Beleg]

that's an interesting Topic. I believe I had some kind of Arguement concerning The Tale of A&E over at the UT thread. But i'd like to participate in this debate. Humm seems like I will be supporting Erendis.....

[Hirila]

As I don't possess the UT I won't be able to take part. As much as I'd like to. And I cannot even get it from the library as I'm not coming near university this month. Sorry.

And if one of you continues to apologize for his or her failing in this last debate I get mad!
Actually I thought the topic was clear. But then it was my idea and I know what I had in mind when I proposed it. Then again it could have seemed strange to those who can't read my mind. As it is, noone made a fault.

Go on with the A&E debate. I'd like to watch it. It really is interesting.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh! I shall have to bring back my "Aldoriana" - avatar! ;)

For those of you, who have not read this tremendous tale of Aldarion and Erendis, here is a summary I made some time ago:

Aldarion&Erendis (http://www.tolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Aldarion__and__Erendis)

[Finduilas]

OK, I will definetely participate in this one. So you can count me too.

---------------------------------------
BTW, Lhun, it seems that you change your avatar every day. It won't surprise me if I have missed some of yours.;)

[Gil-Galad]

Great!!!!!!!!I feel an interesting debate is coming:D :D :D !
The only thing I can say to those who haven't read that part of UT is :Read it QUICKLY
How many people will be in every team?

[Beleg]

We have 7 people (Including Gate who have given the nod in affirmative for this debate. So i guess with the participation of another member we can divide in teams of 4 but i guess that'd depend on the POV every member has about this topic.

[Gil-Galad]

..........hmmhmhm and when is the start of the debate?;) :p :cool:

[gate7ole]

Mmm, is it possible that people who haven't read the tale be given the opportunity to participate by readind a "hard copy" of it?

[Beleg]

You mean E-Copies?

[gate7ole]

yes.
I know that e-copies are illegal, but if they were not all the book, but just a small passage...

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by gate7ole
yes.
I know that e-copies are illegal, but if they were not all the book, but just a small passage...
legal-illegal......who cares.The most important thing is that everybody who reads the passage will be able to participate in the debate.;)

[Beleg]

Well i guess here it is then,

[Gil-Galad]

Well done Beleg!!!Now everybody who wants can participate in the debate and I believe that it will be very interesting.;)

[Beleg]

Waiting, Waiting, Waiting...

[Gil-Galad]

I suppose someone from the judges should announce the start of the debate.Hey,Lhun,where are you?:confused:

[gate7ole]

So far, only Gil-Galad, Lhunithiliel, Beleg and Findy have shown the willingness to participate in the debate. You can also count me in, but still the number is not enough.
So, we're waiting for a few more people to enter...

[Mrs. Maggott]

I have already noted that I will not participate in this debate after the rather poor showing I made in the previous one. I wish to see a debate "properly argued" before I participate again. Oh, and the link provided on this matter earlier in the thread did not work on my machine, so unfortunately, I do not have that material either.

I am sure that once the debate is held I will learn a great deal about the quality of debates expected in the Guild.

Good luck debaters!

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
I have already noted that I will not participate in this debate after the rather poor showing I made in the previous one. I wish to see a debate "properly argued" before I participate again. Oh, and the link provided on this matter earlier in the thread did not work on my machine, so unfortunately, I do not have that material either.

I am sure that once the debate is held I will learn a great deal about the quality of debates expected in the Guild.

Good luck debaters!
I think that the best way to learn something is to practise it.So won't you join the debate?

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
I think that the best way to learn something is to practise it.So won't you join the debate?
I did attempt to look at the link to garner more knowledge of the subject, but my machine would not respond. I fear that the subject matter is not really known to me and my participation would be sure to lower the quality of the debate.

In the instant case, I will follow my mother's old maxim: better to be silent and have people think you're a fool than to speak and prove it.

[Beleg]

M.M i can post the text again in Zip File if you want. I think it would be benificial for the younger forum members (like me) if you participated. I would ask you to re-consider your decision.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
M.M i can post the text again in Zip File if you want. I think it would be benificial for the younger forum members (like me) if you participated. I would ask you to re-consider your decision.
You can try, but my computer is almost (not quite) as old as I am, so I don't know if I will be able to access the information. (So much technology, so little brane!) Anyway, give it a try.

However, it is not debate technique that's the problem, but knowledge of the subject. I have admitted not being knowledgeable on this subject and I hesitate to add ignorance to what is supposed to be an exercise in enlightenment! :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

M.M. but the Tale of Aldarion and Erendis is so beautiful that you can read it in one "breath" (it's the way we sya here ;) ).
Why don't you?
It'll be nice to have you participating in the debate!

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
M.M. but the Tale of Aldarion and Erendis is so beautiful that you can read it in one "breath" (it's the way we sya here ;) ).
Why don't you?
It'll be nice to have you participating in the debate!
I shall read it and let you know if I have anything to offer to the proceedings. By the way, what was the debate premise again? :confused:

[Lhunithiliel]

"Who was to blame for the "tragedy" in the relationship between Aldarion and Erendis"...
or sth. like that...
It is somewhere on the previous page :)

[Gil-Galad]

...and finally when will we start the debate?

[Beleg]

And what about the Teams?

I blame Aldarion. Think others should also disclose their priorities.

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!, but HOW can you blame Aldarion ?!!!!

Well, let's not start the debate here and now.

I would like to annonce that I intend to let the debate start this weekend.

Therefore, please, let us "stand in a row and count ourselves" ;) :D

1/ Lhun
2/ Beleg
3/ G-G
4/ Finduilas
5/ Mrs.M. (possibly :confused: )

We need ONE MORE to form up the teams!

[Ecthelion]

I'll join I think, but I guess it would help reading it first.... I guess you can count me in.

[Lhunithiliel]

That's splendid!
Now we have the teams - 3 x 3

And still there is time to read! :D

[Beleg]

Yay!! Finally!! And Lhun in my opinion there are 101 reasons for why Aldarion was wrong, but as you said lets not start the debate here. ;) And i am sorry M.M but i cannot seem to be able to convert the text into a Zip file. It seems that Windows XP isn't allowing it. :(

[Lhunithiliel]

Well, my friend, I've never claimed Aldarion was a saint! :)
But I find Erendis ....
NO! NO DEBATE HERE! :D

It would be interesting to see us both defending the OPPOSITE! ;) :D

[Beleg]

LoL, i get what you mean!!! Ironic concidence, afterall there should be someone to defend the lady from unauthorised attacks....;)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Yay!! Finally!! And Lhun in my opinion there are 101 reasons for why Aldarion was wrong, but as you said lets not start the debate here. ;) And i am sorry M.M but i cannot seem to be able to convert the text into a Zip file. It seems that Windows XP isn't allowing it. :(

Thanks for your efforts. I will try to catch up somewhere else.

Oh, and please! I have been e-mailed that someone is trying to pm me but my "inbox" is full. I went and deleted all the messages that had been read and replied to, but the e-mail was repeated. When I asked the problem, the e-mail person said I should delete "sent" messages. Alas, so far I have been unable to find any file listing "sent" messages on my control panel. Does anyone have any idea how to access such a file? Does it exist, and if so, where? I have clicked just about every button but the personal message inbox says nothing is there!

Sigh..... So much technology, so little brane! :rolleyes:

[Lhunithiliel]

Dear M.M :)
Now, let me try and help you with this.
Go to "Personal messages "
There is a small window in the upper right corner and there you'll see the options.
Enter "sent messages" and the screen will show you all the messages sent by you.
Then repeat the same procedures as with the received messages - deleting them.

Did it help? :)

[Mrs. Maggott]

Yes, thank you! It had been saving all my "sins" since I first learned about there being a personal control panel and personal messages (duh!!). You see, I thought that the "reply" messages were together with the original letter and that when they said "sent" messages, they meant only those messages I initiated. And since there have been very few of them, I couldn't imagine how the blamed thing could be filled! However, I have learned that it kept EVERYTHING including the "replies" and so it was very, very, very etc. full. Now all is gone, so if I can remember how to do it the next time, that shouldn't happen!

Live and learn - I guess! [So much technology, so little brane!]

Again, thank you.

[Lhunithiliel]

Yes!
I promissed the debate was to start this weekend and I've kept my promise :)

Read all you need in order to start debating HERE (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10789)

Good luck everyone! :D

[Lhunithiliel]

I just wanted to check if the participants have seen that the debate is open... I guess - yes... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Anyway, now the "Jury" is complete :

Gothmog, Gate7ole and Anamatar.

They ALL will give us a hard time to convince them in our positions, ou know! ;) :D

So, be good !

TEAM 1 , we're waiting for your first post! :)

[Beleg]

I have seen the debate and am just waiting for my fellow team members to read it up. Soon Team B we shall be gracing you with a Reply¬!

[Ecthelion]

AH! I can't stand the pressure, I'm only a few pages into the story, I better get a reading!

[Lhunithiliel]

I would VERY MUCH ask Team 1 to at least post whom they will defend - Aldarion or Erendis!

Thus, our team will be able to start building our defence!

PLEASE!

WILL YOU?!

[Gil-Galad]

.........well.....Team 1 is not answering.......
Forgive me if I'm rude but I want to choose!
I choose for my team Aldarion!

Once again forgive me if that is too rude,but I'm impatient to start the debate.

[Finduilas]

I'd like as a member of the 1st team to give my agreement to GG's request.
Since I don't mind defending either side and since I know GG really wants to defend Aldarion, I would have nothing against this:
Team 1 ( we) - Erendis
Team 2 - Aldarion

[Beleg]

I and Findulias will be defending Erendis.

[Ecthelion]

Sorry guys, I'll be going to Paris this Friday for a week so I think it would be best to take me out of this debate. If it hasn't started much by the time I get back I'll be glad to debate.

[Beleg]

The debate should be cancelled, no one is participating, no one is answering, no one seems to be interested. Then why bother to continue it. I feel it should be closed down and shut in some obscure place. Oh and Ecthelion if you have read the original thread more carefully then you would have known that the debate end at the end of this weak.

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh, Beleg, WHY?! :(
I know, I was away but it was because I had some computer problems...

Shall we extend the time-term with one more week ?
I PROMISE to you a good debate, even if it is left one-to-one - you vs.me... ;) :)

Agree?

[Beleg]

Sorry Lhun, i got worked up. Its okay with me if the time limit is extended. Oh and i do hope your computer is all-right now! :) what actually happened to it?

[Gil-Galad]

Ups,I missed the debate.That is such a bad luck.The person who suggested that topic,the person who most wanted to participate in the debate didn't write anything due to his bad health.there are only two words that best describe the situation:
BAD LUCK :( :(

[Beleg]

I ask the Guild Members to present any new idea's and topics for a debate. i suppose we can have an inter-guild debate, (only if everyone else is not fed up with them :p :D). What are your thoughts?

[FoolOfATook]

I ask the Guild Members to present any new idea's and topics for a debate. i suppose we can have an inter-guild debate, (only if everyone else is not fed up with them ). What are your thoughts?

I've actually been thinking about holding an interguild debate lately. Anyone have a preference for a format?

[Lhunithiliel]

I'd say the debate-activities should be very well thought of and organized, showing a trend of development and continuity...not just randomly throwing one topic at one certain moment for one certain debate...

That's why, the new Guild-Master (whoever) shall have to assign this task to one of the Deputies and keep an eye on it very closely .....

Debates are great! I love them and if we manage to achieve a good organization of the debate-activities, I hope more members will be willing to participate.

[FoolOfATook]

Seeing as how I have a few weeks between my last exam and the begining of summer classes, and noting the fact that I've been itching to hold a debate, I'm going to go ahead and issue a challenge to anyone in the guild who would like to publicly embarass me in a one-on-one debate. ;) I'll take on the first challenger. :D

[Lhunithiliel]

Members of the GOT, we have received a challenge from the Guild pf Outcasts for a debate!

Here it is:
Debate Type Stuffs!
What is up, dude? Having all kinds of fun? Oh, I hope so! Why not? Anyways, this guild of Outcasts debate team thing of mine was about to do some crazy little practice debate thing with the guild of Dwarves before that big and scary debate tournament thing showed up, but that little team disintegrated. oh well. How would your little team feel about having a little debate with our little team? We gots a topic all ready for you. I'll be PMing other people with little teams. Whoever PMs me back, wins the honor of being beaten by us!
I hope we shall be able to answer the challenge! ;)

Volunteers?

This message has been posted in the "Happenings in the Guild" too.
:)

[FoolOfATook]

Well, like I said I was waiting for a debating challenge, so count me in. :D

[Ithrynluin]

Yeah, count me in too!

Oh, no....wait, wrong guild.:rolleyes: :D

[Gil-Galad]

As I said,it would be an honour for me to represent our favourite Guild!

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you guys! :)

I have just PM-ed Yay to say we are ready for them.

Let's see what answer we get ...:rolleyes:

And Ithy, the Schollars and the Tolkienologists are just one big family! Why not accepting you in the GOT-team?!
G-G?
FoaT?
Is that OK with you? ;)

[Gil-Galad]

Of course,Ithy is welcome!!!!!!!1

[FoolOfATook]

I for one would be proud to debate alongside ithrynluin.

[Lhunithiliel]

All right, boys, here is the answer:
YayGollum: Re: debate thing
The topic ---> Which was more foolish: Gandalf taking as long as he did to learn that Bilbo's/Frodo's was the One Ring, or Sauron neglecting to consider that someone might try to destroy his Ring?

We might end up just using part of that, but people say that using the whole thing would be more interesting. Whatever you decide.

The place ---> the guild of Outcasts. We're going to get some neutral person to start the thread and get judges and all that.

The date ---> Whenever that neutral person gets to it, I guess. I could always just tell you.
So, there you have it.
If I'm not mistaken, the opponents will be Nom, Indy and Yay.
And on our part - G-G, FoaT and Ithy

This is going to be some battle! ;) :D :D :D

Be prepared and I'll keep you informed.

[Beleg]

I would also like to participate, if its okay with other people.

[Ithrynluin]

Awww...thanks for the welcome you guys but I don't have the time to debate and my contributions would be rather poor because of that. Plus, my allegiance lies with the Scholars, and they might get cross with me for 'betraying' them.:p ;)

And just for the record, the GoO team is:

munchkin
Nóm
The-Elf-Herself
YayGollum

[Lhunithiliel]

Thank you, Ithy! :D

Hey, who is that dolphin overe there? ;)

And Beleg, of course you're welcome!

[Beleg]

Hey, who is that dolphin overe there?

The newest predator! (rhyming with Moderator) ;) :p



And Beleg, of course you're welcome!

Thanks!
Any news from the opposite camp?

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Any news from the opposite camp?
Not yet... I seem to have scared them by saying: "We are ready! Name the battle-field and the date and be prepared for your defeat!"! :p :p :D

[Nóm]

Well, since everyone is ready, then ithrynluin is free to open the thread in GoO at any time now. I'll ask him to do so later today!


In truth, I am terrified by you guys. ;) :p

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
The newest predator! (rhyming with Moderator) ;) :p


Hey Beleg, for your information - dolphins are very friendly creatures! :D

Not to mention intelligent.:rolleyes:

Oh, one more thing - I shall open the debate thread later today.

[Gil-Galad]

Ok,lets beat them!
I hope we'll win!:) :)

[FoolOfATook]

So, will it just be me, Gil-Galad and Beleg against the four Outcasts? Not that I'm worried about the odds with these two Tolkienologists by my side. ;)

[Ithrynluin]

Oh come on you guys, surely you can find someone from this guild who would be willing to participate!

Any volunteers?

[Lhunithiliel]

Guys, it seems that this debate is part of the TTF Tournament!

G-G, you'd better enter your duties as Deputy on Contest, which INCLUDES debates and organize the things ASAP! :)

[Ithrynluin]

Lhun, this debate between the GoT and GoO is not part of the Tournament. Check out this (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=308653#post308653) post for more information on the Tournament schedule.
This is the GoO's first debate and they need some practice before they embark upon the superly scary Tournament.;)

[Lhunithiliel]

Oh!:o
Thank you, Ithy!

Mmmm...

Anyway, G-G, you still have to take GOOD CARE of both - the present "rehearsal" and the Tournament!:rolleyes:

[Ithrynluin]

<gulp>

I just thought of something. This 'practice' debate is going to overlap with the official debate in the Tournament, which is (surprise surprise) also against the Outcasts.

Do you guys mind debating in both of these?

[Lhunithiliel]

Ha! This is what I thought, when I read your message and having in mind the time-table of the Tournament...:o

So...I wonder... what is to be done?

What does GOO say?
Do they want BOTH debates?

And how exactly are we going to be informed about the start of the Tournament?
***********

Well, to tell you the truth, guys, we shall have to think all this thoroughly and seriously!

You need to just look at the names of the OiE and the GOSch teams to see that I'm not kidding!!!!! :rolleyes:

Opinions?

[FoolOfATook]

Since I'm technically in charge of this tournament, I'll talk to the parties involved and figure out something. Give me a few hours. :D

[Lhunithiliel]

So cool to have a "mole" in the right place! ;) :D :D

All right! Go... "spy" for us, Master Took! ;)

[Ithrynluin]

I have opened the debate thread in the GoO. It can be found here (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11715). If you decide not to debate at this time, I will close it.

[Lhunithiliel]

It's OK, Ithy! We're in!

We'll start with this team and the 4-th member will soon join.
Still, I think it wasn't too "wise" on behalf of the GoO to insist on having both debates one right after the other.
*****

BTW, now I know all about the dolphin! ;)
Where is it said in particular what shape might a Blue Wizard have?
It can be ANY!...So...Why not a dolphin, as long as it is blue! ;) :D :D
******

[Gil-Galad]

Lhun,tonight I have some more time so I'll take care about the debate!
Will you be able to be online in MSN somewhere around midnight?!I need to talk wiht you about some organizational matters.:)

BTW!!!!WHICH STATEMENT WILL WE HAVE TO DEFEND?!
Suggestions?
If you decide which,I'll pm YaYGollum and inform him about our decision.
I personally think we could defend the statement that Sauron was fool,not Gandalf.

[Beleg]

WHICH STATEMENT WILL WE HAVE TO DEFEND?!


I personally think that we can defend Sauron more easily, i'd say Gandalf was more foolish. But it's pretty even stevens both ways.

[Beleg]

Erm, G-G do you have MSN? If yes then can you PM me your MSN ID? I am saying this through a post because Your Post Box has decided that it needs some cleaning for it is full :(

[Ithrynluin]

Beleg, his MSN ID is: maksimbaldzhiev799@hotmail.com

And GG - clean out your PM box. :rolleyes:

[FoolOfATook]

I personally think that we can defend Sauron more easily, i'd say Gandalf was more foolish. But it's pretty even stevens both ways.

I agree with Beleg- I think that the debate is pretty even, but it would be easier to argue that our favorite wizard was more foolish. Anyone want to make the first post? And who will be our fourth member?

[Anamatar IV]

Well I'll be the 4th if no one else wants to...I'm just not to keen (keen as in wise) on this topic. I must have missed a post or two. Who was more foolish about what?

[FoolOfATook]

And a better fourth I couldn't have named.

The question at hand is: Was it more foolish of Gandalf to take so long to figure out that Bilbo had the One Ring, or was it more foolish of Sauron to not realize that the Fellowship might be out to destroy The Ring, rather than use it.

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
Erm, G-G do you have MSN? If yes then can you PM me your MSN ID? I am saying this through a post because Your Post Box has decided that it needs some cleaning for it is full :(
Do you see that sentence?
There are no messages to display in this folder for this time period.
I do not know why I can't receive any message.

But try again I think now everything is ok.

[Eledhwen]

... Who is 19 today!