Who is the Mouth of Sauron?

[gate7ole]

From the Return of The King
and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.

When do you think this first arise of the Dark Tower refers to? When Sauron returned to Mordor after the Fall of Numenor or at the ends of the Third Age?
If this refers to the former, was the Mouth of Sauron so old and how did he preserve himself in life?

[Anamatar IV]

I think it refers to at the end of the SECOND age (a little mistake there, Gate, dont you think?;)). Elrond at the council of Elrond when he speaks of the last alliance he says Barad-dur was (paraquoting;)) destroyed but its foundations remained. And was Barad-dur destroyed when Numenor was?

[BlackCaptain]

It probly means after Sauron left DolGuldor and came back to the tower. I think Anamatar did a good job

[Ithrynluin]

It must definitely refer to the Third Age because the Mouth is a mortal Man and even Sauron's sorceries couldn't have kept him alive for THAT long (since the end of the 2nd Age).

[aragil]

On the other hand, even mortal men don't usually forget their own names over the course of 60 years- that's a bit harder to explain. Of course, as ithrynluin knows there are some discussions of this in the thread How Old is the Mouth of Sauron? (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4907)

[gate7ole]

I think it refers to at the end of the SECOND age (a little mistake there,
Gate, don’t you think)? Elrond at the council of Elrond when he speaks of the last alliance he says Barad-dur was destroyed but its foundations remained. And was Barad-dur destroyed when Numenor was?
No mistake at all. I said that Barad-dur’s “first rise again” can be taken as referred to two possible periods:
1. After the fall of Numenor and Sauron’s return (at the end of Second Age).
2. When Sauron returned there from Dol-Guldur (at the end of Third Age).
Now Anamatar seems to agree with the first option, while MorgulKing and Ithryluin with the second.
I agree with Anamatar, but not for the reason he gave. At the council, Elrond spoke literally of the destruction of Barad-dur, which happened only once before the War of the Ring: at the Last Alliance. On the other hand, the quote refers to the rise metaphorically, meaning the return of Sauron.
So, what are my reasons for choosing the first?
First the quote says: “When it first arose again”, meaning that there were more than one times that the Dark Tower arose again (the two periods mentioned above), and that the Mouth of Sauron came at the FIRST of these periods, at the end of the Second Age.
Second, as Aragil said, it is difficult for someone to forget his own name in 60 years. Also, it is very difficult, to grow high in Sauron’s command, so much that he was considered first after the Nazgûl, in such a short period.
Third, judging by the One Ring (and the other Great Rings), Sauron had the knowledge of preserving life. It is very possible that he kept his best servants alive, or even taught to some of them necromancy.

[Ithrynluin]

And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again

IMHO, this does not pertain to the return of Sauron to Barad-dur, but to the actual re-building of the Dark Tower itself and the reestablishment of the "Kingdom" of Mordor.
Therefore:
1. When Ar-Pharazon stormed the shores of Middle Earth and challenged Sauron for the dominion of it, the Dark Lord's armies quailed and fled and Sauron was taken to Numenor, but his realm was left untouched and unharmed. Thus when he returned from Numenor, there was no need for the Black Tower to rise again, in any kind of way. Sauron just took up rule there yet again.
2. After the War of the Last Alliance, Barad-dur was destroyed down to its very foundations. There was indeed need for it to literally rise again in TA 2941.

If the Mouth indeed entered Sauron's service at the end of the Second Age, he would have been about 3080 years old at the time of the War of the Ring.
Sauron extended the lives of the Nazgul by giving them their rings. Remember, they were living, visible Men once too. But they faded. Now are you trying to tell me that the Mouth is an unchanged Man after cca 3080 years of life? That he wouldn't have faded in that time AT ALL (remember: it says in ROTK "yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man.)? That's hilarious!

And about the forgetting of his name part...I don't think it matters that much...An utterly evil man wouldn't exactly be keen on knowing about his heritage, rather he would accumulate as much dark knowledge as he could and try to exert his power over others.

And that's why I think that the Mouth of Sauron definitely "joined" the Dark Tower around TA 2941.

[Anamatar IV]

Um hehe actually I suppose you could read my post like I was making a mistake...I meant after the second age and when he returned in the 3rd age. So I guess I am with option 2 as with everyone else.:D

[Ithrynluin]

I expected some sort of reply from gate7ole or somebody else, to counter my arguement, even though I don't think there is much to say.:)

[gate7ole]

I expected some sort of reply from gate7ole or somebody else, to counter my argument, even though I don't think there is much to say.
Here I am to defend my case!
I read the old thread that dealt with the subject and I guess everyone believes that the “first rise again of the Dark Tower” refers to the Third Age. They can’t be all wrong! I’m wrong, so I accept it.
Yet, the passage from the book says he learnt sorcery, he forgot his name, he grew higher in the Lord’s favour. All these for nothing? Couldn’t it mean that the Mouth was old, older than the usual Men, even compared to the Dúnedain? Maybe he was already old when he joined Sauron and learnt some sorcery enough to preserve him in life, but the consequences were not still apparent. I just can’t accept that Tolkien gave us all these hints for nothing.

[Ithrynluin]

gate7ole, I agree that Tolkien gave us many hints for this matter (either way), but still I lean much more to the fact that the Mouth joined Barad Dur at the end of the Third Age.

A Numenorean Man, eager to learn evil knowledge and sorcery, would do so quickly, since he is much greater than any other "ordinary" mortal. He would "climb the ladder of Barad-dur" in a short time, since the Orcs are really no competition for his superior skills.

[aragil]

I think I'm in agreement that the Mouth joined after the Tower rose again in TA 2941- but that doesn't mean he wasn't already old by then. I like to think of him as being over a hundred years old at the time of the War of the Ring- which would be pretty rare (and thus possibly a result of sorcery) at that point in time with the Black Numenoreans.

[Brent]

Originally posted by aragil
I think I'm in agreement that the Mouth joined after the Tower rose again in TA 2941- but that doesn't mean he wasn't already old by then. I like to think of him as being over a hundred years old at the time of the War of the Ring- which would be pretty rare (and thus possibly a result of sorcery) at that point in time with the Black Numenoreans.

IMHO I agree, his Numenorean roots would mean he lived longer than most men around, he didn't consider his name important enough to remember, why should he when he was Mouth of Sauron - the highest job you could get in the Dark Service (the Nazgul being wholly slaves to Saurons will not something you'd really want !). Necromancey btw is the fortelling of the future by means of communication with the dead - its got nothing to do with preserving or extending life.

[Rangerdave]

I always thought that easiest explanation for his forgetting his name is that he "entered the service of Mordor" as a child.

How hard would it be for the Lord of the Dark Tower to access a child? We know that he has the descendants of Black Numenorians in his service, He could very easily either foster or seize a young boy (more than likely newborn) and foster him to serve as a lieutenant.

The assertion that "he no longer remembers his name" does not implicitly state that he had ever known his true name. This would explain how he could have entered the service of the Dark Tower and still be only in his sixties.

Makes sense to me.

RD

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Rangerdave
He could very easily either foster or seize a young boy (more than likely newborn) and foster him to serve as a lieutenant.


If they captured a newborn or a very young child, who would have breast-feeded him then? An orc-lass perhaps?:D

Just being silly:rolleyes:

[aragil]

I prefer to think that "he entered the service of the Dark Tower" describes a voluntary act- it makes Mouthy much more evil than if he was simply seized by Sauron as a child. Also, having him be older (>100 yrs) makes him more powerful which is also a preferred reading of mine.

[Grond]

One must remember that Sauron had many, many Black Numenoreans under his sway from the second age forward. I'm sure he had a very selective breeding program and kept their bloodlines pretty pure. I would think they would have been as pure as Aragorn or more so. One could easily assume a pure-blood Black Numenorean could live to be 180 - 300 years.

Another possibility. Remember that Sauron kept the Rings of the Nine in his possession (they were already enslaved to him). Could Sauron not have given one of the nine to his Mouth and he had not yet worn it long enough to have turned into a wraith yet?? Just a thought. :);)

[Galdor]

One possiblity that I have thought of is that the MoS had a ring. Remember, there were many rings made before the Three, the Seven, the Nine, and the One were made. So it is very possible that there were a few rings made that could greately exstend the lives of men, or even make them imortal, but since they were not as powerful as the nine they would not turn their owners into wraiths. And since Sauron helped the elves grow in their skill of ring makeing, it would have been very possible for Sauron to have stolen a few rings that prolonged life.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Galdor
One possiblity that I have thought of is that the MoS had a ring. Remember, there were many rings made before the Three, the Seven, the Nine, and the One were made. So it is very possible that there were a few rings made that could greately exstend the lives of men, or even make them imortal, but since they were not as powerful as the nine they would not turn their owners into wraiths. And since Sauron helped the elves grow in their skill of ring makeing, it would have been very possible for Sauron to have stolen a few rings that prolonged life.

From The Shadow of the Past:
'In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.
'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but
he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last
every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make
himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible
permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power
that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or wellmeaning
to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last
- sooner or later the dark power will devour him.'

From The Council of Elrond:
`Yes, long and weary,' said Gandalf, `but not without profit. For one
thing, the tale he told of his loss agreed with that which Bilbo has now
told openly for the first time; but that mattered little, since I had
already guessed it. But I learned then first that Gollum's ring came out
of the Great River nigh to the Gladden Fields. And I learned also that
he had possessed it long. Many lives of his small kind. The power of
the ring had lengthened his years far beyond their span; but that power
only the Great Rings wield.

Only the Great Rings extended life (except the Three).

[Grond]

Of course, ithrynluin, I am referring to one of the nine Rings of Power in my post.

[Ithrynluin]

Grond, I was referring to Galdor's post. I edited my post to make that evident.;)

P.S. I cannot tell you how glad I am that you have come back to us. You have been sorely missed:)

[Maedhros]

Who is the Mouth of Sauron?
From the LOTR: The Black Gate Opens
At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.

Service of the Mouth of Sauron:
According to LOTR: Appendix B
In the Secong Age: c. 1000; Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dûr.
But it was stated that he entered to his service when the Dark Tower first rose again.
In the Third Age: 2951; Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dûr.

What is a Black Númenórean?
The Black Númenóreans were the ones who were deceived by Sauron when he was captured in Númenor. They took to the worship of Morgoth and they built in Armenelos a mighty temple for him.
From The Published Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again. Wherefore seeing the smoke of Orodruin from afar, and perceiving that Sauron had returned, the Númenóreans named that mountain anew Amon Amarth, which is Mount Doom. And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.

In 3262 S.A.; Sauron is taken as prisoner to Númenor; 3262-3310 S.A. Sauron seduces the King and corrupts the Númenoreans.
3320 S.A.; Sauron returns to Mordor.

There are two possibilities that I can see. If the Mouth of Sauron is a black Númenórean, then he could be one that escaped the destruction of Númenor by going to either Pelargir or Umbar and entering openly into the Service of Sauron in 3320 of the Second Age.
Or, he was a descendant of Black Númenóreans, and entered his service in 2951 of the Third Age. It is in 3019 of the Third Age when Sauron was defeated.

In Scenario A, if he entered into his service in 3320 of the Second Age, by the time of the defeat of Sauron, he would have been 3341-3320 = 21 + 3019 = 3040 years in the service of Sauron.

In Scenario B, if he entered into his service in 2951 of the Third Age, he would be: 3019 – 2951 = 68 years old in the Service of Sauron.

If Scenario A is correct, then it would be coincide with the fact that he was an Original Black Númenórean, but the problem with that is how do you explain the fact that he lived for over 3000 years, and was not a ringwraith? He was a sorcerer, and he knew much of the mind of Sauron, but could he had learned enough to live that long? Granted that if you lived that long, it is possible that you will forget your name. There is also the fact that if The Mouth of Sauron is Herumor, could he be the same as told in The Peoples of Middle-earth: The New Shadow

If Scenario B is correct, then the Mouth of Sauron would have been in the Service of Sauron for 68 years and because he was a descendant of Númenóreans, it is possible that he already was 100 or 200 years old. Would 168 or 268 would be long enough to forget your own name?

From The War of the Ring: The Black Gates Open
No more is said in the draft of the history of the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr, the nameless Mouth of Sauron, than that ‘It is told that he was a living man, who being-captured as a youth became a servant of the Dark Tower, and because of his cunning grew high in the Lord's favour ...' In the fair copy this was repeated, but was changed subsequently to: 'But it is said that he was a renegade, son of a house of wise and noble men in Gondor, who becoming enamoured of evil knowledge entered the service of the Dark Tower, and because of his cunning [and the fertile cruelty of his mind] [and servility] he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour ...' (these phrases being thus bracketed in the original). In RK (p. 164)the Mouth of Sauron 'came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans'.
This quote of course don’t bring anything new to the discussion, but the fact that it states he was a man of Gondor tells me that he isn’t that long lived after all, and the possibility that he was 3000 + years old is odd.
Che pensi tu?

[Elfarmari]

But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.

I have always taken "And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again" to mean when Sauron returned to ME after the destruction of Numenor, and wondered about how he was able to live that long. Maybe this is just one of several things Tolkien never really decided himself?

[Ithrynluin]

This thread should be of some interest here: The Mouth of Sauron (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9252)

[Inderjit S]

Maedhros-Weren’t the Black Numenoreans just the Kings Men who were left in M-E? I always thought that the Sauron worshipping Numenoreans were just called the ‘Kings men’?

The mouth of Sauron had forgotten his own name, it is doubtable that whether he would’ve simply remembered it again. I think that the Mouth was a bit too ‘supernatural,’ for the New Shadow, and it is probable that the Mouth was destroyed when Sauron was left impotent, after the destruction of the ring, as I feel Sauron’s power may have contributed to the Mouth’s strange power.

[Maedhros]

Maedhros-Weren’t the Black Númenóreans just the Kings Men who were left in M-E? I always thought that the Sauron worshipping Númenóreans were just called the ‘Kings men’?
Yes.
The mouth of Sauron had forgotten his own name, it is doubtable that whether he would’ve simply remembered it again. I think that the Mouth was a bit too ‘supernatural,’ for the New Shadow, and it is probable that the Mouth was destroyed when Sauron was left impotent, after the destruction of the ring, as I feel Sauron’s power may have contributed to the Mouth’s strange power.
All true, but if he had survived for 3000+ years, what a better name to use that one of the most famous Black Númenóreans in ME. Remember that he was a sorceror too.

[Inderjit S]

Originally posted by Maedhros
What is a Black Númenórean?
The Black Númenóreans were the ones who were deceived by Sauron when he was captured in Númenor. They took to the worship of Morgoth and they built in Armenelos a mighty temple for him.
[/B]

I'm sorry-but aren't you contradicting yourself on the Black Numenoreans?

[Maedhros]

I'm sorry-but aren't you contradicting yourself on the Black Numenoreans?
Why, aren't the King's Men the Númenóreans who were deceived by Sauron and began worshipping Morgoth?

[Scatha]

If the lieutenant of Sauron was intelligent enough to have risen this high in the shadow's ranks, then certainly 68 years in his service is too short to have forgotten his own name. Therefor the first solution to this problem, would be the most likely one, making the lieutenant over 3000 years old.

There can be a number of reasons for him living this long, even more if the man was a mage himself, partially drawing his power from Sauron himself or from the power of the ring. Upon the destruction of the ring, this source of power was gone and so was the "mouth of Sauron".

[Maedhros]

There can be a number of reasons for him living this long, even more if the man was a mage himself, partially drawing his power from Sauron himself or from the power of the ring. Upon the destruction of the ring, this source of power was gone and so was the "mouth of Sauron".
Why would his power be link by Sauron, if he had not a ring of power?

[Celebithil]

I don't have a quote but if I believe that Gandalf says that the seven have been either destroyed or taken. Sauron could have given one of these rings to the MoS and I don't know whether they were different in nature to the 9 but if they were perhaps they would keep him alive but not change him into a wraith. I don't even know if I believe it myself just throwing it out there.

[Elfarmari]

Originally posted by Celebithil
I don't have a quote but if I believe that Gandalf says that the seven have been either destroyed or taken. Sauron could have given one of these rings to the MoS and I don't know whether they were different in nature to the 9 but if they were perhaps they would keep him alive but not change him into a wraith. I don't even know if I believe it myself just throwing it out there.

Interesting theory. . I think, however, that the dwarves did not become wraiths because of their toughness which prevented them from submitting to the will of Sauron. I think I would lean toward the theory of the Mouth of Sauron being very, very old, kept alive by sorcery learned from Sauron.