California Homeschoolers

[HLGStrider]

I was thumbing through Ideas On Liberty (a periodical) when I came across an artical of interest to me personally... though I am one state up... "California's War on Homeschoolers".

Apparently there is a big push to either illegalize or force many restrictions upon homeschooling.

But why?


According to this report homeschoolers are doing MUCH better than the average public school graduate? What is wrong?

Just your take wanted

If interest is shown I can give you quotes from the article.

[Celebthôl]

Well i guess the home educated people wouldn't get to meet many other children their own age and so they wont grow into socializing properly, because meeting people of their own age is an important part of a childs life.

[HLGStrider]

In the first place that is not true, and "socialization" in schools often means drug dealers and teen pregnancy. I'm homeschooled. I have several friends, most of whom are also homeschooled.

And even if it were true, what gives the state the right to say "No, your kids aren't getting proper friendships, so we're going to not let you do this."? Do states also have a right to force a naturally introverted kid to make friends?

Truthfully they don't have the right. The right to educate your kids as you please is a basic right...

California is out of bounds.

[Celebthôl]

i guess, you cant say that i have never run into drugs or teenage pregnancy at my old skewl or even college, but maybe it is the parents choise, but then tax payers money isnt being used properly if the skewls aren't being used.

[Niniel]

In the Netherlands homeschooling is completely forbidden, except for children who really can't go to a normal school (when they are mentally handicapped or something). So at first I was surprised that in there were so many people at TTF who are homeschooled. I think for lots of kids, homeschooling is a much better option than a public school; but there should be a strict control on the kids' intellectual progress and their emotional well-being (so that they are not completely cut off from contact with other kids). If this goes well, homeschooling can be a great option.

[faila]

Homeschoolingis probobly the tied for the best option to get away from the indoctrination in the public school system. (theother being privat school, which I am in) Bu the reason people try to stop it is because their against people not being indoctrinated, they want people to believe what they tell them to and nothing else.

[Hadhafang]

The state should stay out of people's business in regard to homeschooling. Forcing everyone to go to the same school and learn the same thing is a form of cultural McCarthyism. It also smacks of Big Brother. I have heard of lazy parents (I personally know of at least one) that abuses the homeschooling system. Their children did not learn the things they needed to learn. However, I have heard of a good many instances where homeschooled kids got more attention and hence, did better than public and private schooled children. The ratio between the two sounds a like any other school. Many do well. Some slack off and fail.

Overall, parents should have the right to teach there kids what THEY want them to learn....not what a Big Brother wants them to learn.

[Aerin]

The reason why the state supervisors are so dead-set against homeschoolers is for a couple very simple reasons.

They want control over the children: what they learn; what they think; what they're exposed to. If you have control over a child from the time they get into daycare or preschool, then brainwashing is quite simple... and devastatingly effective.

They can't stand how homeschoolers do not bend to the rules. In homeschooling, the curriculum is chosen by the parents, and most of the time, the children are exposed to a vastly greater information range than in public school.

I myself am homeschooled; have been since 4th grade. Last year, when I moved, I attended a public high school; and I was simply astounded at the brainwashing that was taking place. The teachers hated when a student (myself, for a while) would bring up a different view or angle on a subject; and if you questioned the teacher, you were done for.

As has been said before, the gov't wants total control: Big Brother is watching you. They can't stand to have anyone who does not fit the mold.

[HLGStrider]

I do not think it should be regulated more than for basic literacy tests.

For one thing, parents who love their kids enough to give up THEIR time, and mothers who love them enough to give up any possible chance of a career, care about their kids, and know them better, than any government could ever... no matter what the government agencies supposed expertise.

And the brainwashing does happen. That is from my experience at my ant hill of a community college.

Half the class is spent listening to the teachers rant about their favorite political subjects, and I haven't had a conservative teacher yet.

I could understand if I were taking political science courses or history, both of which demand some political thinking, but I can't stand all this off topic waste of time conversation when I am trying to learn writing and Spanish!

[Rogue666666]

I'm homeschooled, and I definetly think its more of a challange for the student then just going to public school.

California is known for rebelliuos stuff, like throwing God out of their pledge.

Making kids GO to public school is ridiculuos, since the standards of public school are absolutely rock bottom.

I'm in 10 th grade mathmatics and I'm working on calculus.

I have a friend who is in public school 9th grade and he is working on adding 2a+2a, basic algebra.

This is sad.

[Athelas]

I survived public schools in California, barely. The great advantage to homeschooling your child is that you don't put their life in deadly jeapordy everyday, and THAT is the cold reality of it not just in California, but many places. Public schools are not safe.

[Ciryaher]

All of your biases towards public schools are just as bad as the biases against homeschools.

I will use MY public school as an example. We are in the top 10 top-scoring schools in the entire state, private schools included. Kids get along well, and the teachers, for the most part, are all really into what they do. We don't have ideas forced upon us (take a look at some of the kids here and you'll know, people here are themselves and don't just go with the curricular flow) and textbooks are hardly ever used, except in mathematics classes. Our government/economics class is taught by a former attorney who hasn't even handed out the class' textbooks. If a teacher does something wrong, the students here will more than eagerly pounce on them and give a correction.

There was a Supreme Court ruling on a case that dealt with Amish homeschooling. I don't think that California will have a chance if this gets challenged in the Courts, and this case might be brought up. (learned about that case in a "mindwashing public school")

[HLGStrider]

I've discussed this with you before, Cir, I believe. You seem to have a good school system in your area, but stats have fairly well proven that that is the exception. In general homeschoolers do do better than public schoolers. That is not bias. That is fact.

However, I have never claimed that a person can't come through public school and do ok. I'm just saying that homeschooling has obvious advantages, and it is ridiculous for the government to be fighting a system that has been proven to work.

According to Athelas, who has been in CA schools, they are not good (though my mom said that her school in CA was better than the one she moved to in OR... I don't know how this has changed... or if it has. Maybe OR is still worse.).

Anyway, the article states "Parents probably will win any court battle in the end, but how many parents want to endure the grief?"

It states that it belives that the government will probably just try to threaten them out of there education.

Basically the point to this thread is to verify the right to homeschool, despite what any CA official might say.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Of course there is a right to homeschool...I do not think any state has the right to take that away. However, I do not think that homeschoolers should necessarily be judging the public school system either as there are plenty of things wrong with their own system.

There is a constant thing going on about how homeschooled kids get a better education than public schooled kids. I think this is a rather general statement. I can assure you that there are plenty intelligent kids in the public school system who are more than capable of attaining any degree of "smartness" that homeschoolers have attained. Anyone can do that regardless of what school they attend. There are also many homeschooled kids who are smart. However, there are homeschooled kids who do not get adequate schooling in many regards just as with public schooled children. But what I think it all boils down to is whether or not the kid wants to learn. Any public schooled kid can learn whatever they want whether their teacher teaches it or not. Same with homeschooled kids.

Personally I do not support much of the stuff that says public schools mindwash kids. I'd rather say that homeschooling mindwashes kids. It seems to me that homeschoolers often have an attitude of "betterment" about them like they think that since they've had a better education that they are better than the public schoolers. They probably haven't really had a better education...just more of a want to learn. They are also highly encouraged only to associate with other homeschoolers which in the long run makes them incapable of social interaction with public schooled kids. They become ridiculed and scorned because of their hot heads and their inablity to interact with other children from public school. I have seen it where a homeschooled kid will end up in a situation where he/she has to interact with public schooled kids. That child is of course a little timid and eventually seems to follow instead of lead simply because he/she is uncomforable with his/her surroundings.

Now tell me, why do so many homeschooled families try to shelter thier kids in this way? Eventually they will have to go out in the world. I do not get it. This is what I mean by brainwashing.

BTW, for all who don't know, I am homeschooled.

[Celebthôl]

I agree with that.

[HLGStrider]

But that is not necessarily true for most kids. Look at me.

I'm going to a community college now and I know I was not the only Christian, nor the only person with my views, in my writing class. However, I was the only one who chose to argue against homosexuality because it violated my religious beliefs when the subject came up (though I don't think the subject should be discussed here, I am just using it as an example). I don't go along with crowds.

In fact, while I can think of a few kids who after being homeschooled "follow" they were always the kids who followed when faced with other homeschool kids... Some people are not natural leaders, and those kids should be homeschooled more than the kids who are natural leaders. A natural leader can stand up for his/herself in a crowd or in a public school system. A natural follower is more likely to try drugs or sex to gain acceptance.

Homeschooling parents can take the time needed to make their kids strong.

And a look at statistics, spelling bees, geography bees, and literacy rates can prove that homeschool kids do better...

Though I did have an interesting conversation with my friend about this. She recently switched to public highschool and later, while talking with me, she said it was refreshing to talk to a homeschooler again because all the kids in her public school were so immature (and I have never considered myself a mature person), so our discussion was "Does homeschooling make kids more mature or is it just that parents are more likely to homeschool mature kids?" We ended up deciding it was a mix of both.

Anyway, I personally believe homeschooling is a better system. Occasionally you will come accross a homeschooling family where the kids aren't learning that well. This is in part due to the kids, but you have to ask yourself "Why would a struggling kid learn better when faced with a teacher who has to divide her time between twenty kids than dealt with a teacher dealing with three or four?"

I know several parents who are homeschooling kids because they have learning disabilities, kids with whom it was a struggle just to learn.

In fact I heard on a radio parenting spotlight that it is now suggested that public school students learn to read at home as well as in school because the system has too low a literacy turn out.

I think that public schooling can mind wash kids, depending on the system.

One of the homeschool dads in our group is a public school teacher (Physical Education) and he was complaining about how the school nurse shows studies which are incredibly biased from planned parenthood. Also evolution is rarely countered. A foster kid we had in his family started asking questions about it and his science teacher just got annoyed. Homosexuality is also very encouraged in school systems (at least in Oregon... yours may vary).

There is mind washing in this form. A parent could teach the kids the exact same things or mindwash in the other direction, but to me it all comes down to the parent having the right to choose whether or not his/her kid learns that way. The parent should be able to make the choices. When a kids is public schooled the parent can't.

[FREEDOM!]

Ok, I am homeschooled. And all but 4 of my friends are in public schools. Homeschooled students are not necessarily "smarter" or "brighter" than kids that go to public school one of my best friends for example is very smart (probably smarter than me) she wants to be a nuclear engineer, I am a leader and want to be a pilot for the United States Air Force. But some homeschoolers are smarter than some public school kids, it all depends on the student.

I don't think that the government should tell us how to raise our kids and how they should be taught. That is all a matter of government control.

[Aerin]

Please forgive me if I laugh while reading your posts....

Compared to most, if not all, of the people I have spoken with about homeschooling, I have a rather unique perspective.

I was in the public school system from kindergarten through 4th grade, where my parents decided to homeschool me. For my part, I believe it was the best choice they possibly could have made.
As I mentioned previously, I attended public high school last year when I moved, and I believe my opinion holds at least a little weight in this argument.

Perhaps the school I attended was particularly bad; or perhaps it was just average, but I was completely astounded at the lack of learning that took place. The teachers I was .. fortunate .. enough to be assigned did not encourage learning or study; it was just the opposite. Their "projects" were designed for small children, and the material they covered was sketchy, simple, and often wrong. Questions in class were highly discouraged; my personal belief is that the teachers were so shaky in their own "knowledge" that they could not handle anything outside of the text of the textbook.

Fairly early in the year, I was reprimanded in English class for using a word my English teacher did not understand. She said, "I really wish students would not use words I don't understand." This was said while glaring at me. I struggled to keep my grade up in that class; the teacher allowed her personal antagonistic feelings against me to affect not only how she treated me, but how she graded my papers. (Toward the end of the year, we got a substitute teacher, and when I showed him some of the papers I had received a low grade on with the regular English teacher, he said that she had given me a false grade. He told me that my papers, which had received a C or a D, were A material. Just goes to show that teachers are human, too, as much as they hate to admit it.)

I have many horror stories from last year at school; I won't go into the grisly details here. However, I will say, that the schools that I have attended have all tried, very hard, to brainwash the students. Was it all intentional? No, I do not believe that; but the curriculum and the material the teachers had/wanted to cover was brainwashing.

I am sure that there are great teachers out there; teachers who strive to truly educate their students, but the ones I have had the misfortune to meet did not. They were simply there to either fill in time before retirement or for money with which to buy more clothes than any one human being could possibly need.

I've heard the argument that homeschooled children are "socially stunted" and do not "develop social skills". I laugh in their faces, especially when they discover I am homeschooled. No, I am not a "social butterfly", but neither am I a complete social drop-out. I'll admit that I'm not the most outgoing person you'll meet, but I certainly don't run from "social situations" like so many biased and prejudiced people seem to think homeschoolers do on a regular basis.

No, I do not think that homeschoolers are better or smarter than public schoolers; rather, it depends on the individual. An extremely motivated student could do extremely well in either situation, but it all depends on the individual.

[Nenya Evenstar]

This is a very interesting subject to me. Perhaps I should say something right from the start. I think a lot of whether or not homeschooling is good depends on the reasons you homeschool. I think that if the reason for homeschooling is to give your child the best education that you can, then applause and congrats to you. However, if your reason is to keep your child from "the big bad world influences" then I think you're making a BIG mistake. I come from a family whose philosophy is the latter. As a consequence I had absolutely no friends until I was twelve years old and luckily started dance which got me out of the house. I was thankfully smart enough to pick up that I was a complete loser without any clue of how to act and turn myself around from a peer-dependant person to a rather opinionated person who leads all the time. It seems that many homeschoolers have the philosophy of keeping their children from outside influences and it is these families that I target when I say that their children are not learning the correct social skills. Yes, there are many homeschooled families who allow their children to socialize with other kids and thus their children are not socially inept. I do not think a kid has to be in public school to have good social skills. That is rediculous! Rather, I think that the families who discourage involvment with other kids are homeschooled families that have gone overboard. This is what I think many people see when they target homeschoolers as socially inept because a good deal of them are for this very reason -- not all, though.

I am not in a position to say anything about what goes on in public schools because I've never been enrolled in one. However, during my PSAT test I had an uncommonly growing detestation (nice word :rolleyes: ) of the teacher. I can understand why there is a lack of respect in classrooms if the teachers look like they want nothing more than to get out of the class.

[HLGStrider]

I think that protection from the world is a VERY good reason to homeschool.

Why would you want to expose your kids to bad things?

You don't let your six year old watch R rated movies.

If you know your child's best friend is a bad kid who is trying drugs or is a bad influence in another way, I think a parent is PERFECTLY justified and not wanting and even prohibiting that child from being with that friend.

If the school system in your area has problems, such as drinking, drugs, bullies, gangs, etc, taking your kids out of it to send them to a private school or to homeschool them is a very good idea.
Taking kids out of public school so that they don't have to listen to garbage about homosexuality, abortion, liberal politics, etc is also a very good idea.

The kids SHOULD be taught about why they aren't learning these things. The parent can't hide that they exist from children, but the children can hear it from their parents first.

I learned everything from my mom. With very few exceptions I would take her word on just about anything. I trust her ten times more than the teachers at this stupid community college. I trust the values I learned from her (and also from reading various very good books) much more than the garbage the teachers spew out every day.

Keeping your children sheltered is a perfectly good reason. I wish it weren't necessary, but in this world it often is.

Most people do provide friends for their kids. I can hardly see how other homeschooled kids, or even other public schooled kids can be a bad influence. Most of my friends are homeschooled because they were the ones that were out of school at twelve, like me, and had the free time to play with me. Also I live in the country so play times had to be arranged with parents who could drive us places, and the children my parents knew to arrange play times with were other homeschooled children.

I didn't get along very well with a lot of public school kids. Some of them looked at me as if I was from another planet when I told them I was homeschooled. Others wanted to talk about pop-culture figures who I had never heard of (Not only am I homeschooled, but where I live I cannot get tv reception or cable so it took me about five years to figure out who Britney Spears was).

Now at the college most of my acquaintances are a good deal older than I am, but I like that. Older people have a lot more to say.

Most of my friends are my age, but homeschooled. I know two or three public schoolers my age. They're ok people, but I don' t know them all that well.

I like it, however, and I am no where near socially inept.

[Dr. Ransom]

Ahh, ehemmm. I do believe Dr. Ransom will indulge in this argument... :D
You're both half-way right... (or half way wrong from my perspective... lol) Nenya's point in a nutshell: "You should not separate from the world." Elgee's point in a nutshell: "You're darn right you SHOULD separate from the world."
Dr. Ransom believes separating from "the world" and "bad" culture can and usually is a positive thing only if the purpose of the separation is to strengthen yourself for eventual head-on combat w/ "the world." In other worlds, it's ok to be a little bit separatist w/ your kids if you make it very clear by your words and actions that they are only in a "parenthesiss of preparation" *quote from Dr. Eckman, one of my profs. If you choose to be "out of the battle" for a bit, you better be repairing the artillery for next bombardment.


Ransom

[Galdor]

Homeschoolers are just like everyone else, there is a small contingent of them that make everyone look bad. That small minority among home schoolers keep their kids so sheltered that they become totally socially inept. A lot of my friends are home schooled, and among them I know a few who are socially inept, but most are not. On the contrary, most of my friends who are home schooled are smarter and as socially intelligent, if not more then other friends of mine who are public schooled. In fact I often look down on public schoolers for being socially inept.

Let me tell you guys a little of how my life has been made better due to the fact that I was(and am) home schooled. First of all, I look at the fact that I didn't have a ton of friends when I was younger as a serious plus. I have two older brothers, one who is three years older(Dr. Ransom) and one who is four years older. I had some good friends, but since I was not public schooled I did not see them everyday, and so I was forced to be mature enough for my brothers to want to play with me, and to be able to hang out with them when they had their friends over. And so I always tried to me mature enough for be able to hang out with them, and I was always kind of hurt every time they'd get mad at me for being immature, and so I'd try even harder not to be mature. But then when I was with my friends that were my own age I would switch back to acting my age, and would have great fun with them. Due to that fact I have always been mature for my age, and was always able to hang out with my older brother's friends. It is only partly because of that that for the past year I have been taking classes at the local college were both my brothers go, and my dad teaches(yes I am only 15). And both my brothers also started taking college classes at the same age.


Ack! I was going to write more, but I'm out of time and need to get off. To maybe I'll back and write more later.