Discussion: Elf Friends

[Anamatar IV]

This is a discussion about the Elf friends, meaning the Edain, in the first age wars against Morgoth. What impact did they have? How did their deeds compare with the deeds of Elves? If the Edain had not been would Morgoth have been overthrown? These are some questions to be asking yourself.

I personally think the Edain had a major role in the wars, equal if not higher than the Elves. Tuor was a mortal man and he going to Gondoling may have saved more Elves, had not Turgon denied him. Earendil slew Ancalagon the black. Turin the Blacksword killed Glaurung. And Huring the Steadfast defied Morgoth to his face. It was (I think) Hurin or Hador's army that allowed Turgon's to escape back to Gondolin in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

[Maeglin]

I agree with you completely Anamatar, and yes it was the armies or Hurin and Huor father of Tuor that allowed Turgon to escape. However, you have forgotten to mention Beren, who stole a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth himself, thats no small feat. One thing about Tuor, however, is he may have (however remotely) helped cause the downfall of Gondolin. He fell in love with and married Idril, whom Maeglin was in love with. Perhaps, had there never been a marriage between Tuor and Idril, Maeglin may not have so easily given in to Morgoth's wishes. However, that cannot be helped, for Idril didn't love Maeglin back anyway.:rolleyes:

[BlackCaptain]

I believe there were few great men who made all of the difference for Elves, such as Turin, Elindil, Isildur, and Aragorn. Without them, the elves might not have done very well in their striving with the enemy. However, Elves were the main force against the enemy, and yes, they had many great leaders, but Men were esential to the role the elves played. And Beren! He was important too! cant forget him!

[Carantalath]

I don't think that the Elves could have won against Morgoth if it hadn't been for the Edain. There were Turin, Beren, Tuor, Hurin, and others who performed great deeds. Without their help, Morgoth would have won. Some of the deeds of the Edain were great, as the ones that I listened before this, and compared to the deeds of the Elves, who were considered greater, they were still incredible deeds.

[Maeglin]

Morgoth would have won Carantalath? He did win. It was the hosts of the Valar that defeated Morgoth, not Elves and Men.

[Anamatar IV]

MorgulKing we are discussion the Edain in the first age against Morgoth.:)

Glorfindel: you say it was not Elves who defeated Morgoth but the hosts of the Valar. What did you think the hosts were? They were the ELVES of Aman.:p

Turin, also, helped Doriath in their wars. The Dragon Helm and the Black Sword were feared among Orcs. After Turin fled the Orcs won more battles. So we know Turin was a great aid in those wars.

[Maeglin]

Well yes I know that Anamatar, but what I meant was it wasn't the Noldor that defeated him, as was their goal. Sorry I should have been more clear about that.:rolleyes:

[gilgalad]

Glorfindel,
It wasn't exactly Tour's fault that he contributed to the downfall of Gondolin either though. You have to ask just how much Ulmo knew about what would happen. Tour was hardly going to refuse to do the bidding of a Vala who had appeared in person before him, so you'd have to say that if it was anyone's fault it was Ulmo's.

[Nóm]

If the Edain had not been would Morgoth have been overthrown? These are some questions to be asking yourself.

I personally think the Edain had a major role in the wars, equal if not higher than the Elves.
If the Edain had not been, that is, men had been but elf friends had not - I think Morgoth would have taken over entirely. I see purpose in the friendships between races, and in the unions of man and elf. These things always result in good. The good people don't stand when they are more divided than united.

The men who first came into the west, were fleeing an evil in the east, the worship of Morgoth. This is according to some writings in HoMe. The best source that I know of is Morgoth's Ring. At any rate, I suppose that if not for Edain the entire race of men would have fallen entirely to evil, and would have probably been eventually used as warriors against the elves, and then as weapons against the Valar directly.

I think Edain and elves played equal parts in the wars against Morgoth. The races could have been friends or enemies, and they chose friendship. It was because of friendship between the races, and unions of men and elves, that a Silmaril made it to Valinor. :D

[Ramagna]

I would like to ad, that there were more than the edain, that were elf-friends, as for all the creatures like the eagles, or Huan, the wolf-dog (the right word:confused: ), and as well some other that weren't named explicitedly... I hope I didn't sound this confusing... I got just an exam and my head is full of numbers and formula... ;)

[gilgalad]

I think Nom is spot on about relationships between elf-friends and elves being beneficial. Just look at the instances where this friendship was damaged and you see how badly things went, eg in the case of Turin.

[Glorfindels Gal]

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
These are some questions to be asking yourself.

I personally think the Edain had a major role in the wars, equal if not higher than the Elves. [/B]

I know this will sound really naive of me but in my eyes elves akways seemed like a race which weren't too keen on the whole war thing anyway. It was the men that were more willing to fight against the evils of Morgoth (well some men anyway) and although the elves didn't like Morgoth, they were willing to leave war until the men agreed to help. I know lots of people will probably disagree with that though :confused:

[Brytta]

Glorfindels Gal wrote:

I know this will sound really naive of me but in my eyes elves akways seemed like a race which weren't too keen on the whole war thing anyway. It was the men that were more willing to fight against the evils of Morgoth (well some men anyway) and although the elves didn't like Morgoth, they were willing to leave war until the men agreed to help. I know lots of people will probably disagree with that though

I'm not going to disagree with you.

One possible explanation for Man's willingness to charge into war is their short life-spans. Elves can take a longer term view of the struggle against Morgoth, whereas Men have such a short time to make a name for themselves and make the world safer for friends and family.

[Glorfindels Gal]

Yes, elves may also always be thinking I can go onto a better place when I wish to,so they may not feel as strongly about fighting for ME. Men on the other hand, have very short lives,all of which is spent on ME so if they feel their exsistance is being threatened, they act more quickly. Glad someone agrees though :)

[gilgalad]

Originally posted by Glorfindels Gal
Yes, elves may also always be thinking I can go onto a better place when I wish to,

This is not essentially true in the case of the elves who were fighting Morgoth. Remember, the majority of these were Noldorin and had participated in the Kinslaying at Aqualonde as well as forsaking Aman and leaving of a foolhardy quest against the will of the Valar.

The Undying Lands were closed to these elves, so that isn't the reason they were less disposed to war than the men, if indeed that is true, which i don't believe.

[Lasgalen]

I'm taking some liberties here considering the title is "Elf Friends". I just want to point out that the Fifth Battle might have been called something other than Nirnaeth Arnoediad if it weren't for the treachery of men. The Elven army most likely would have won the day exept for men who pretended to be on their side but were really fighting for Morgoth.

Ok,with that out of the way I will get more on topic. Elves were generally the leaders in the major battles. Maedhros organized both Elves and Men for the Fifth Battle. The host he met up with was called the host of Fingon, not the host of Hurin. Yes, the Edain were very important and performed very heroic deeds, but I would not say they had a higher role than the Elves.

-Lasgalen

[Nóm]

But were the Easterlings actual Elf Friends, or just in alliance (or in the case of Ulfng's people, false alliance) with the sons of Feanor?

It has somehow been my interpretation that only the Edain where "Elf friends".

Though, I am not sure if Lasgalen has implied otherwise?

[Lasgalen]

Yes, only the three houses of the Edain were Elf friends. That is why I said I was taking liberties in my previous post.

-Lasgalen