Israel, The Focal Point of Conflict

[Rogue666666]

The Guild of Politics is aflame with discussion over the looming war with Iraq. I am involved in many of these discussions.

Finally, we must come to the conclusion that no matter what happens in war with Iraq, the focal point of the Middle East conflict is, and always has been, Israel.

We, the United States of America, are in alliance with the nation of Israel, and most, if not all of the Middle East nations are acitvely involved in warfare against Israel. Whether openly or in the shadows it is the truth, despite whatever the media of our planet tells us.

My parents have been there, they have seen it, I require no more proof then that.

There is only one question that remains.

War.

Can the United States and Israel continue to compromise with an enemy that has no plans to stop until total destruction is achieved? Will open warfare between the United States and all of the Middle East eventually be forced to break out? What is the solution to this inveitable conflict? Should we abandon Israel in her time of need, or do we face the consequences if resonsibilty?

Though all out war with the Middle East may seem far fetched, were else can the path that we are now on take us?

So I ask again, what is the solution to the end which we are now bieng drawn near? What is the solution to our alliance with Israel? What is the solution, I ask you, to war?

[Eledhwen]

Israel has been at war constantly since the day they crossed the Jordan. Most (though not all) were expelled from Israel in AD70 by the Romans, who re-named the land Palestine (meaning 'land of the Philistines'). When the Roman empire collapsed, Tribal War Lords ruled for a while until the Ottoman Empire took over and ruled for many hundreds of years.

Even in exile, every nation the Israelites settled in mistreated or expelled them, culminating in the horrors of the Holocaust. Since 1918, the diaspora have been returning to Israel, which was a desolate waste at that time. They populated it and made it green.

When the State of Israel was re-created in 1948, the surrounding nations immediately declared war. Israel won.

In 1966 Nasser of Egypt led a massive multi-nation assault on Israel. Israel won in six days.

In 1972, the surrounding nations again tried to take Israel, taking it by surprise during the Yom Kippur War when many soldiers were at home, fasting. Israel won.

The Battle for Israel is a spiritual battle, not a political one. No other nation has won through against such incredible odds. I'm not going to pour out Bible quotes here; suffice to say that God intended the Nation of Israel to be reborn and to survive. Because it is a spiritual battle, it will never be won in peace negotiations (though these do help slow down the bloodshed). You can put the most powerful men in the world around a table with Arafat and Sharon, but it only takes one person to blow themselves up along with a busload of kids and the process is derailed.

Israel will survive. The question is, which nations are for Israel, and which are against? Those involved will recognise no fence sitters.

[Anamatar IV]

I think that though America and Israel have very strong alliances we are fighting different wars. America (so far) is targetting those volatile nations in the west of Asia. Israel is defending themselves against that squabbling bunch of make shift bombers. I doubt there will be much of a war in the Middle East (by war I mean......desperate struggles and changing leads and all that) when Israel decides to get fully on the offensive and attack with a strength to wipe the Paletinians out.

When America got hit by terrorism we attacked in a month and a half. Israel is getting hit with terrorism EVERY OTHER DAY and haven't done too much military action.

I don't doubt that Israel will survive, Eledwhen, but the people of Israel might not until Palestine is gone.

[Arvedui]

One of the main problems in the area is that three major religions have historical ties to Jerusalem. So if one wants peace in the Middle-East, a solution for Jerusalem has to be brought into being first. And this would have to be something that the heads of the different religions would have to agree on, not something decided in the UN or Washington.
Secondly, I think we will have to admit that some sort of independance for Palestinians would have to be brought into being. Palestinians were, after all forced away from their land and homes in 1948. I think the rest of the world must be able to accknowledge that it was not alltogether right to drive away the Palestinians.
Last, but not least, the terrorist attacks against Israel must stop.

If these three problems were solved, it is my humble opinion that peace would be achieved.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Arvedui
I think we will have to admit that some sort of independance for Palestinians would have to be brought into being. Palestinians were, after all forced away from their land and homes in 1948. . An independant homeland for the Palestinians was created - it was called Jordan! Read the history. Also, the Palestinians were not ethnically cleansed from Israel - they responded to terror propaganda from their own radio stations warning them to flee for their lives. Jews living in the surrounding nations had to genuinely flee for their lives and were assimilated into Israel. Palestinians who tried to enter the surrounding nations from Israel were stopped at the gates and herded into refugee areas so they would stand as an open sore in the face of Israel.

Those Palestinians who did not flee but remained in Israel were given Israeli citizenship.

Also, Anamatar, Israel doesn't just get lone suicide bombers attacking it in these days. Don't forget that during the last Gulf war Israel was targeted by Saddam Hussein with SCUD missiles. They agreed not to retaliate; and miraculously there was only one casualty - a man died of a heart attack near where one fell.

[Arvedui]

Unfortunately, you are right. Darn!

Which reminds me that I forgot one thing:
The countries around Israel need to accknowledge Israel as a country. As long as that doesn't happen, terrorist attacks will continue, I'm afraid.

That the Israelis did not retaliate to Saddam's SCUD attacks in 1991, shows that the Israeli leaders do understand the nescecity (sp?) of staying calm when it is needed. I wish the arab countries could have seen the importance of the Israelis not joining the fray.

Thanks for the remainder, anyway.:)

[DGoeij]

Yeah yeah yeah, Israel good, Palestinians and all other arabs bad. I nearly forgot. Thank you for reminding me.:rolleyes:

[Eledhwen]

That's not what is being said, DGoeij; there is a force at work in the middle east that is beyond the ability of men to find a solution - and that's the real point. The fallout from that is terror against civilians in Israel, and Palestinians suffering in overcrowded Ghettos on the borders of the surrounding nations. Anyone who pays attention to international news will know that there are many nations persecuting their people, ethnically cleansing their minorities and ruling through fear and cruelty; yet if you count the security council resolutions made at the UN, more have been passed against Israel than any other nation. I wonder why?

[faila]

their will be war in the middle east until christ himself, in boddily form, stops it.

[Bombadillo]

well, i can imagine that i would be very angry, to put in nice words, if you lived on a farm in palastina and yopu lived there for hundreds of years.. there is a war far away and suddenly the countries that live far away say to you move aside this isnt your land, its the jews... you must remember that this was forced on the palestines...
(this is no reason to approve the terrorist attacks...)

[Rogue666666]

Wow. Eledhwen, I didn't believe that anyone could express my exact opinion on the subject in a more clear and concise way then I could.
:D

When I started the thread I was expecting fierce and harsh attacks against Israel and was prepared for a bloody debate with pro-palestinians. Maybe that's still to come, but as far as I can see, Eledhwen has already given my opinion on the subject.

There is only one thing to adress. I believe that the world, possibly including the U.S has really discouradged Israel from retaliating to attacks. It seems that every time Israel begins an offensive, four or five nations get on the air denouncing it as unprovoked and wrong.

Why don't we simply allow Israel to push the palestinians out into the Arab nations around her? Is it becuase we fear there will be war in the Middle East with many of the Arab nations if Israel does so?

No, I don't think there will be peace, at least, not until Christ return. But it is agonizing to see the constant exchange of death every other day. I wish that there was some solution to at least stopping the fighting for a small period of time, such as a year or two.

[Anamatar IV]

I find it ironic that all these people are saying not until Christ returns when Jesus was originally a Jew yet the Jews do not idol Jesus (at least as far as the Christians do). It is Israel's (Jew's) war and everyone is saying not 'til Christ reutrrns.:D

I just thought that was ironic.


I was actually about to start a thread a few days ago about the misconception people have about Israel....it really isn't a rotten scumhole with kids running around and shooting people with machine guns as some people may think (people at my school DO think this:rolleyes: ). It is one of the more civilized places in the world, really.

[Arvedui]

Yeah, I get your irony. Even Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet.

[Eledhwen]

Originally posted by Bombadillo
well, i can imagine that i would be very angry, to put in nice words, if you lived on a farm in palastina and yopu lived there for hundreds of years.. there is a war far away and suddenly the countries that live far away say to you move aside this isnt your land, its the jews... you must remember that this was forced on the palestines...
(this is no reason to approve the terrorist attacks...) Have you been reading this thread, bombadillo? The Palestinians have never ruled Israel. When the Romans turfed the Jews out and renamed it Palestine, they continued to rule. When they left, warlords ruled until the Ottoman Empire took it over. During this period, Israel was a desolate wasteland Apart from a few skirmishes, the Ottoman (Turks) continued to rule - for hundreds of years - until the British Mandate. The British decided that the Palestinians needed a homeland, so they took a huge chunk of the mandate and called it Jordan. They set up a king and thought that was that; but there was a problem - in 1918 the Jews started to return to their old homeland. They irrigated and cultivated it. Suddenly it became green and beautiful again, and attractive to the Palestinians, who also began to arrive and settle alongside the Jews (ie: they had NOT been there for centuries! VERY FEW can claim that. There were probably no more indiginous Palestinians than the number of the Jewish remnant). People believe such tosh, just because they heard someone say it on the news or read it on a webpage.

Incidentally AnamatarIV, the number of Messianic (Jewish Christian) Fellowships in Israel is increasing at a rate that alarms the hardliners on both sides - there are Messianic congregations in most large towns, and most of them have friendly relations with Christian Palestinian congregations (yes, they exist, though they are persecuted), because they have Jesus in common.

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by Rogue666666
Why don't we simply allow Israel to push the palestinians out into the Arab nations around her? Is it becuase we fear there will be war in the Middle East with many of the Arab nations if Israel does so?

Because operations like that are called ethnic cleansing. I would like to see the state of Israel (or any other state) to stay as far away as possible from anything like that.

I don't see why people who wish to live there cannot do so, either Palestine, Israelic, or whatever. Thinking in black and white is simple, but a serious mistake regarding the thsi situation. Both sides have their share of raging fanatics, but also hardworking innocent people suffering from the violence. Turning a blind eye to the behavior of the Israelic government in the occupied territories is as disgusting as Arab nations financing terrorist factions.

[Bombadillo]

eledhwen...

first one thing:
People believe such tosh, just because they heard someone say it on the news or read it on a webpage.
everyone says things that sounds to them as logic and as true, EVERY person on earth is influenced by the things he heard...

They irrigated and cultivated it. Suddenly it became green and beautiful again, and attractive to the Palestinians, who also began to arrive and settle alongside the Jews (ie: they had NOT been
this was something done with the support europe and america gave them, not that there is something wrong with it... but this was part of giving every peole a own land... this had much result on the chart of the world, especially europe...

but its true both people have bad sides done bad things... and the palestines in israel are now being oppressed and discriminated (water and electricity is being shut down for them)

but this is just reaction upon reaction, it has all started when europe and america where trying to get rid of their guilt for the jews, they had been an oppressed group in europe and america... and also during the war..

[Dengen-Goroth]

A very interesting discussion, with some very interesting opinions. I am genuinely curios as to this talk being presented, that the Israelis just came into Palestine and made it green and beautiful. And also that the Palestinians have never owned/belonged in Palestine (That is how I interpreted your statement Eledhwen). Beginning in the late 1900’s, with a rising trend in anti-Semitism, individuals and organizations emerged working towards the goal of creating a homeland for those of the diaspora. There was an organization, founded in 1882, called the Lovers of Zion. As the call for a homeland mounted, there was great dispute over it’s location. At one point some land in Uganda was suggested, within the Zionist Congress (founded by Theodor Herzl), but the Russian delegation simply left. Their reasoning being simple, there was no other solution then to create a state in Eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel. Soon there was attention being placed from the international community, specifically Britain, into the matter. Such proclamations as the Balfour Declaration paved the way for the Israeli state to come into existence. The Lovers of Zion grew tired of rhetoric, and 6,000 of them simply moved to Palestine in what is known as the First Aliyah (sp?). Around the 1920’s, if I remember correctly, there were varying outlooks on what the state would become. There was the Labor Zionist Party, of which Ben-Gurion was one. There was an outlook for a democratic state, and then there was the hopes of a religious society.

At this point it is crucial to look over at the Palestinian side of things. These people had been living there for generations, under the Ottoman Rule for a great time (As you pointed out Eledhwen). The British and French came to them with a proposal during WWI, help us bring about the downfall of the Ottoman Empire and you’ll finally have your land! But in the Pyckot-Sykes agreement, in which Britain and France secretly divided up the Empire into protectorates and mandates. In 1948, a day before Britain’s mandate was to conclude, the state of Israel was founded. 750,000 Palestinians fled into exile, their villages utterly destroyed. And to this day they have never been allowed to return.

Going back a bit, there was a growing frustration among numerous settlers in Israel about the Palestinians, who were not very happy with the idea of releasing, what they viewed as their land, to the Zionist movement and proposed state. There sprang up a group called revisionists. This was led in part by a man called Vladimir Jabotinsky. Here is an excerpt from Revisionist material(most likely a speech):
an iron law of very colonizing movement, a law which knows no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonise a land in which people were already living you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossibly any attempts to destroy or prevent your colonization, colonization is impossible, not “difficult”, not “dangerous”, but IMPOSSIBLE…it is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot.
Ben-Gurion wrote to his son:
“….I am sure we shall not be prevented from settling in all the other parts of the country, whether through mutual understanding with our Arab neighbors, or otherwise.
He spoke in regards to creating an army. A prominent Israeli scholar, Israel Shahak, wrote of the four hundred Arab villages completely destroyed:
destroyed completely with their houses, garden-walls, and even cemeteries and tomb-stones so that literally a stone does not remain standing and visitors are passing and being told that ‘it was all desert’
Yet another Israeil, Moshe Dayan, wrote of the Palestinian past of Israel:
We came to this country which was already populated by Arabs, and we are establishing a Hebrew, that is a Jewish state here….Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because these geography books no longer exist; not only do the books no exist, the Arab villagers are not there either. Nahalal arose in the place of Mahalul, Gevat-in the place of Jibta, Sarid-in the place of Haneifia and Kefar Yehoshua-in the place of Tell Shaman. There is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population

Phew, my fingers hurt a tad;) Anyhow, before I conclude, I want everyone to know one thing. My stance in the entire Israeli and Palestinian affair is completely undecided. I presented the information above in hoped of presenting the view point of the Palestinian side (albeit I’m not Palestinian and most likely did a poor job at covering the vast complexity of it). The goal of the international community should be finding peace, and to do so we must enter this conflict with a completely unbiased approach. I believe it is wrong to simply say Israel is good and the Palestinians, suicide bombers and all, are bad. Likewise I believe it is wrong to say the Palestinians are good, and Israelies bad. Each side has perpetrated horrendous acts, and each side has been wronged in one way or another. But we must approach this with a clear perception of both sides of the story, or else nothing will get done. When Anamatar mentions the suicide bombers, I think of Sharon’s attacks on the two refugee camps (There names escape me). I think of the Palestinian poet, Radi Sadduq’s, moving words to his young daughter.
My little baby! You are a whole world here,
But with no colour, downtrodden and vagrant.
O Rula! Stranger you are,
And the daughter of a stranger who
Is humiliated and a fugitive.
Or of Mahmoud Darwish, a very famous poet.
You are my grief and joy,
my wound and my rainbow,
my prison and freedom.
You are my myth
And the clay from which I was created.
You are mine with all your wounds,
Each wound a garden…
You are my sun at its setting,
And my lightened night.
You are the death of me and the kiss of life

[Eledhwen]

A well laid out argument, Dengen-Goroth. You have read more Palestinian-originated writings than I have; and I suspect that both sides have added more colour to the story where expedient.

How can we know the truth when accounts are woven with distortions? The BBC interviewed a little old Palestinian woman who was distraught that her home on the Golan Heights had been bulldozed to make way for an Israeli military installation. But the area she said her home was in had never been populated by civilians - Golan was ever a military stronghold for the protection or shelling of the lowlands to the West, depending on who held the heights.

Mark Twain visited The Holy Land at the turn of the 20th Century, and his journal described it as a desolate wasteland. This was long before an Israeli army could have made it so. Ruins there may have been - but ruined for how long?

Throughout the centuries, a remnant of Jews has always survived in Israel. Islam has taken pot shots at them from time to time, but it took the Christianisation of Rome and the so-called Christian Crusades to really dent their numbers. I would ask anyone reading this - why has every nation who has encountered the Jews sought at one time or another to wipe them off the face of the earth. What is it about the Jews, What is it about their homeland that causes so much violent attention? Why are we not talking about the creation of, say, the Pakistani homeland in the same way? We cannot ignore the spiritual dimension, nor that 85% of the prophecies concerning Israel and the return of Jesus have already been fulfilled.

[DGoeij]

You mean to ask why people hate other people? Because 'they' are not people like 'us'.:rolleyes:
History shows that minorities are always the focal point of conflict in troubled society's. Jews happened to be a monority in almost every part of the world. Also, minorities usually back eachother up. Combined with the European laws during the middle ages, Jews were not allowed to fulfill many professions. So they found a niche in the banking world, diamant trade etc. Professions that would make a group of people that trusted eachother quite rich. And a rich minority, attracts the attention of nasty people. This has not happend to Jews alone. It happened to Armenians in Turkey, it happened in Rwanda too. All you need is a little distrust, some fear, a conflict or economic crisis and an elite trying to hold or gain power, focusing every problem on the minority at hand.
Pakistan is quite peaceful, until you find the province of Kashmir, which is a melting pot of different groups of people, with different religions as the violent cherry on top. Several wars between India nd Pakistan have been fought over this piece of land. The fact that CNN doesn't cover it, doesn't mean it isn't a conflict.

[Eledhwen]

My point about the Jews is that they are God's time clock. From the point of view of the Bible, the whole of human history has its crux in Israel and the Jews. If Satan can annihilate the Jews, then he can prevent the remaining Biblical prophecies from coming to pass. I find that fascinating (though I don't expect others to).

The reason we don't hear about ethnic horrors in other parts of the world is because they do not resonate spiritually (We heard about Rwanda because of the enormity of it. The war there - and the human rights abuses - continue spasmodically, but nothing is reported here in the UK. Same applies to Kashmir - though the nuclear element makes it juicier to report)

[Dengen-Goroth]

Eledhwen, I have a few questions for you.
1. What do you mean by the "co-called christian crusades"?
2. Could you provide mroe sources stating that Palestine was entirely a wasteland before the Aliyahs occured

Also, I think a major issue which prevents anything from being done in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is religion. Yet another thing, which in my mind, should be left out of negotiations in regard to the issue.

[Gloer]

There is not going to be a national salvation for the jews.

God promises salvation to jews when they finally obey his commands. It is very clear that as long as jews have not converted to christianity they will have no salvation.

There is no alternative but jesus in the bible. Without Jesus you are not saved even if you were a jew.

So if one really wants to have a biblical point of view one should actively strive to convert the jews to follow Jesus and become gentile. Once this work is done the world will end and we all are saved. :D

[Arvedui]

I think of Sharon’s attacks on the two refugee camps (There names escape me).

Shabra and Shattilla...

[Rogue666666]

Dengen-Goroth


After reading your previuos post, the one before last, It seems that you believe Israel and Palestine should attempt peace. Even if I didn't believe that was impossible becuase of my religous outlook, you seem to have read enough literature on the subject to know that 'peace' has been attempted for fifty years.

I wish I could look up all the peace negotiations and all the failed attempts, but unfortunately I don't have much time.

Suffice to say, that it has been attempted, again and again and again. Over the past half a century, it has become obvius that the only desire of the so called, ' state of Palestine', is the complete annihilation of Israel. Even DURING peace negotiations their have been suicide bombings. How is it that Palestine thinks it will attain peace through strapping explosives to its children? Their is NO excuse for that. Most nations would be conquered before they blew their own children up. What is it that makes them do this? Religion. Their is no other explantion.

So we must ultimately draw this conclusion; that if a nation is willing to sacrifice its own children to assualt another nation, then it in no way has plans to make peace. Tell me, woudn't it be better to simply move then to martyr you own children? And what of the peace negotiations that have taken place? My belief is that they were simply strategic moves to gain more land. And that is EXACTLY what they have accomplished. So, you tell me how peace can be attained.

Look up some old records of what Israel declared its own when it was first recreated as a nation. Now look at a current map of Israel. You will notice a difference that is NOT to Israel's advantage.

[Ponte]

Originally posted by Rogue666666
Look up some old records of what Israel declared its own when it was first recreated as a nation. Now look at a current map of Israel. You will notice a difference that is NOT to Israel's advantage.

That is wrong, Israel has gained more land since 1947 when it was created, during the first Arabic-Israelic war 1949 gained more land around jerusalem and in the north of Palestine.
Then during the six-days war 1967 Israel occupied Golan, The Westbank(sp?), Sinai and Gaza. Then 1978 in Camp David Israel gave Sinai back to Egypt in exchange of an Egypt recognition of the Israelic state. So Israel's land is bigger now than it was when it was recreated.

[Anamatar IV]

I really dislike looking at this from a religios view. Israel will only survive if they convert to Christianity? Although this may very well be in the Christian bible (I would not know...never read the thing) but I am CERTAIN that it is not in the Torrah (never read that either).

Israel can be saved easily: open war upon all their surrounding nations and beat those countries down to a living pulp! But of course they would not do that....never would Israel overrun their enemies, no matter how easy it would be.

What would all the Jews converting to Christianity do anyways (according to the Bible)? Would lightning come and smite all the Arabs? I am asking a real question: According to the Bible what would happen if the Jews converted?

[DGoeij]

Rogue. You seem to think the suicide bombers are sent by the Palestine state to fight Israel. That is rather strange. Firstly, there's no Palestine state as of yet. Secondly, if every terrorist is supposed to be representing his/her country (if any), than the US should have been attacking Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and many other states around the Gulf.
The fact that some foaming fundamentalists are wishing to destroy the state of Israel doesn't mean all Palestines wish so. Neither did all the Israeli liked to see Yitzhak Rabin being shot dead. Still, one of their religious fanatics did just that.

And I do not understand why it is so hard to give a strip of land to a people who wish so. Of all the people in the world, Iwould think the Israeli could understand such a desire.

[Rogue666666]

Ponte, let me clear this up. I was referring to how much land the Palestinians have been given over 50 years compared to how much land has been taken from the Palestinians by Israel.

DGoeij, Amazing isn't it that


there's no Palestine state even though Mr. Arafat would disagree with you. If you really think that the terrorist bombings are just a couple of radicals, then their must be A LOT of radicals, as their are terrorist bombings every week.

And everytime one of those guys blows himself to Kingdom come do you think he does that just for the heck of it? No, it is a campaign against Israel. Hamas is just one of many organizations, and together they make up the majority of Palestinian males.

Israel HAS given them strips of land. OVER and OVER again. The majority of palestinians won't be happy until Israel has been ' Driven into the sea'. Does that statement sound like it has even a hint of compromise in it?

Missels are fired at Israel EVERY DAY. No, their not ICBM's but their purpose is not mainly one of destruction, but one of terror. The Palestinians are most definetely controlled by the Arabs, Or did you think the Palestinians built their own missles? The Arabs have been having a fued with the Hebrew nation for quite some time now. And Palestine wants for the Israeli goverment to give them more land, and more and more and more. When will it stop?

As long as the palestinians are their, harrasing Israel, and as long as the Arab nations continue their attacks, then their will be no peace.

Imagine that the world is telling you to give Osama Bin Laden the state of Texas. Then after you give it to him, let him run free and never retaliate to his attacks. This is what we are telling Israel.

Are we blind that we cannot see this? Does it have to happen OVER AND OVER again? Has it come down to giving in to terror just to save our own face? What will the end result of that be?

[Dengen-Goroth]

Rogue, I would compose a longer erply though I am short on time. First off, the stance of "driving the Jews back into the sea" was abandoned in the 1970's if I remember correctly, when numerous Palestinian groups including the PLO realized that would never happen. There have been uprisings that have not been violent, the infitadah (sp?) being one. For the points concerning terrorism I completely agree with DGoeij. The attacks do not happen every week, but near to it. The reason being there are a lot of Palestinians who are feeling that they can not alter their status and do resort to violence. It''s a very deep subject, and i'll try to get a post on explaining it as best I can later on.

[Eledhwen]

I am informed that the Koran tells its followers they have no obligation to tell the truth to 'infidels' or to honour any treaty signed with them. Incidentally, Yasser Arafat is an Egyptian, born in Cairo to two Egyptian parents. His Palestinian identity came later.

[Dengen-Goroth]

Eledhwen, could you please provide the actual text?

[Morgoth]

This is a pretty hot debate, so I don't want to get on the wrong side of people. Firstly, I am going to make some very strong anti-Israeli statements that I see as reasonable, but may be seen as anti semitic. I AM NOT ANTI SEMITIC, SO DONT COMPLAIN SAYING I AM. THE POINTS ARE ALL REASONABLE. I'll begin. I believe Israel is living and surviving off what happened to their race in the Holocaust. Sure, it was one of the most appalling acts ever, but it cant be a sole reason for a country persecuting another nation and getting away with it. Israel is killing innocent civilians every day, and when a Palestinian suicide bomber strikes back, it's terrorism. They are fighting back the only way they can. If anyone are terrorists, it's the Israeli troops. Suicide bombing is NOT terrorism, it is merely a revenge for how the Palestinians have been wronged. And then America says that the PLF, Al-Aqsa and Hamas are on a axis of evil. Grow up. America is a fraud, and the sooner people see Bush for what he is, an election rigging nazi, the world will be a better place. The Price of Freedom is Constant Vigilance. Keep your eyes on Sharon and Bush, they are the real axis of evil. By the way, listen to a band called Amen, they know the score. Listen to Buy American and The Price of Reality. Rant over

[Gandalf White]

I'll begin. I believe Israel is living and surviving off what happened to their race in the Holocaust. Sure, it was one of the most appalling acts ever, but it cant be a sole reason for a country persecuting another nation and getting away with it. Israel is killing innocent civilians every day, and when a Palestinian suicide bomber strikes back, it's terrorism. They are fighting back the only way they can. If anyone are terrorists, it's the Israeli troops. Suicide bombing is NOT terrorism, it is merely a revenge for how the Palestinians have been wronged. And then America says that the PLF, Al-Aqsa and Hamas are on a axis of evil. It is Israel's land, won fair and square, so deal with it! :rolleyes: Israel will never leave that land, or be driven out, no matter how many nations are against it. You are making a common mistake. You say the Palestinians blow themselves to bits because of Israeli violence. Actually the Israeli's retaliate because of Palestinian homicide bombings.
America is a fraud, and the sooner people see Bush for what he is, an election rigging nazi, the world will be a better place Ahahaha, a true hard-left Democrat if I ever saw one. :rolleyes: A nazi is defined as anti-Semitic, when actually America is about the only country in the world that stands up for Israel's rights. As for the election rigging, I shouldn't even lower myself to that level. Let it suffice for me to point out the numerous recounts, stating EVERY time that Bush won fair and square, fortunately for the US of A!
America and Israel the axis of evil?? Hahaha :rolleyes: Yes, I can't wait til we dominate the world, making all nations cringe under our iron fist!! Ah, that will be the day.

[Morgoth]

Your views are fair enough, particularly on the Israel side of things, but I can't agree with the election rigging. Why did the supreme court stop the recount just as Gore started to gain votes? As for the hard-left democrat remark, you're nearly right. I am one of those 'awful' communists that America hates so much.

[Morgoth]

Also, not meaning to nitpick, but a nazi is actually defined as a nationalist socialist, or someone who acts on behalf of his country and no one else. You say Bush is standing up for Israel. That is because it is the only country in the Middle East who will be a foothold for America's oil reserves

[Gandalf White]

Why did the supreme court stop the recount just as Gore started to gain votes? What, do you think Bush told them to stop it, and they did?Also, not meaning to nitpick, but a nazi is actually defined as a nationalist socialist, or someone who acts on behalf of his country and no one else. You say Bush is standing up for Israel. That is because it is the only country in the Middle East who will be a foothold for America's oil reserves I'm sorry, but we give more money and food to 3rd world countries than any other nation in the world. We dropped food to the Afghanis as we fought in their country. I just can't see any justification for America as a nazi nation.

[Morgoth]

You're twisting my words. I have nothing against the americans. I do have a very big thing against the US government though. Yes, the Supreme Court was stopped by Bush. Because the Supreme Court judges were Republican, there was a chance that if Gore got in, they may not be re-elected as Judges. Plus they were good friends of Dubya Sr. As for dropping aid to the Afghans, give me a break. Taliban Militias would have seized most of those aid packages. Just like the militias of Mohammed Farreh Aidid seized aid packages. Now there was a morally correct objective, trying to stop Aidid. Or was it because it was a high profile objective, which would have made the US look good. But your government sent 19 young men to their deaths needlessly. Why does the US government feel it has the right to police the world, that job rightfully fell to the UN, which has a more balanced opinion. I take it, by the way, you are Republican

[Gandalf White]

But your government sent 19 young men to their deaths needlessly. Why does the US government feel it has the right to police the world, that job rightfully fell to the UN, which has a more balanced opinion. I take it, by the way, you are Republican It was needless to get rid of the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan??? The US was attacked, the US has the right to retaliate. We have no need to go to the UN. They are a bunch of bumblers who I wouldn't trust with anything. Look who they just elected as Human Rights chairman. What a joke! Their opinion is about as balanced as my diet!:D
As to the thing with Iraq, yes the UN needs to be involved, but with it seemingly ignoring Iraq's breaches we can only wait so long.
And yes, how right you are, I am a Republican! How ever could you tell?:D
You're twisting my words. I have nothing against the americans Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't fully understand your statements. It was my bad.

[Morgoth]

I agree that at the moment the UN are bumblers, but they must be respected. And your country must respect them, too. You have the potential to become regarded as an 'enlightened' nation, if only you would stop your perpetual desire for money and oil. Bye bye corporate republican america, hello enlightened, just america.

[Gandalf White]

I believe there is a point when respect is no longer warranted, and the UN is fast reaching that point, if not already.
And is it wrong to want money and oil? All nations need oil, is it wise to leave it in the hands of a madman? All nations need money.
BTW, can you name an enlightened nation for me?

[Dengen-Goroth]

This debate is getting more and more interesting by the day;) It is Israel's land, won fair and square, so deal with it
Could you explain to me, Gandalf, how they won this land in the first place, as in 1948. Also on the point of foreign aid, the one country to which the give the most financial foreign aid is Israel (Just a few weeks ago they asked for 8 or 9 billion in aid). The second nation is Egypt.

[Gandalf White]

Actually, it has been their land from about 1500B.C. However, they were forced from it by the Romans and various other conquerors. The Jews naturally migrated back to Israel, before, during, and after WWII. British applied to the UN for a nation, to avoid tension with the Arabs living in the region. The UN responded by dividing the land between the two, which is a totally logical choice. However, the Arab nations refused to accept the choice, and attacked Israel, but were repulsed. It is Israel's land, won fair and square, so deal with it I am sorry if I was not clear about this. By this I meant the war of 1967, where they gained the Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, etc. I believe they have a right to keep this land, although it may be wise to give it up.

Also on the point of foreign aid, the one country to which the give the most financial foreign aid is Israel (Just a few weeks ago they asked for 8 or 9 billion in aid). The second nation is Egypt. I think what you're saying that Israel is given the most foreign aid, if not, please correct me. If so, so what? The US still gives more to 3rd world countries than any other country in the world.

[Morgoth]

Gandalf, you say the land had been theirs since 1500BC. But before them, that land belonged to the Canaanites, who the Hebrews committed a colossal act of genocide against, not to mention the Hittites, Archites and Palestinians (whom the Jews called Phillistines). Fair and square my ass.

[DGoeij]

And if we go even furter back, one of your ancestors might have made a very insulting noise to one of mine. I suggest we immediatly stop getting along. Besides, these kinds of claims could be made by native americans. Maybe they should? :rolleyes:

Or we could deal with the present situation, in wich Israel is a country with people in it, who wish to live there. There's nothing against that, no matter what other people might yell. But the state of Israel could also conclude the Palestinians might like to have a place of their own. One that isn't criss-crossed by Israeli tanks, divided by Israeli checkpoints and suffering under a very intolerant occupation policy. One could state these measurements are there to protect Israel from attacks, but it isn't helping and the situation isn't improving.

[Gandalf White]

Gandalf, you say the land had been theirs since 1500BC. But before them, that land belonged to the Canaanites, who the Hebrews committed a colossal act of genocide against, not to mention the Hittites, Archites and Palestinians (whom the Jews called Phillistines). Fair and square my ass. Yes, and 1500BC. is when they committed "that colossal act of genocide" and the land became theirs. If the people who were living in the land could not defend themselves against the poorly armed, poorly trained, Israelites (which turned out to be the case) then it rightfully became the Israelites land.

[Gandalf White]

Or we could deal with the present situation, in wich Israel is a country with people in it, who wish to live there. There's nothing against that, no matter what other people might yell. But the state of Israel could also conclude the Palestinians might like to have a place of their own. One that isn't criss-crossed by Israeli tanks, divided by Israeli checkpoints and suffering under a very intolerant occupation policy. One could state these measurements are there to protect Israel from attacks, but it isn't helping and the situation isn't improving. A very good point DGoeij. However, let's realize that this is the Arabs fault. Land was divided for two nations, (2 ), but the Arabs and Palestinians would not accept Israel, attacked it in 1967, and promptly got their rear ends spanked. That said, I think the Israelis should give back the Gaza strip, Golan Heights, etc. However, should the attacks and homicide bombing continue (which I have a feeling they would), I believe Israel would have the right to retake the aforesaid terrorities.

[DGoeij]

I don't know if Israel has the 'right' to occupy territory, but military speaking, there's no one that would be able to stop them from doing so. Which in in my view no reason to actually do just that. About the Golan height I can imagine the Israeli are reluctant to give it up. Maybe in years to come. But Gaza and the West-bank are territories suitable for the palestinians to live in. Preferably in a more decent fashion than they are allowed to now.
In the current situation, we have a supressed people, highly frustrated about their situation and therefor not unwilling to support violence, to say the least. I don't think there's a way to entirely end the suicide bombings, but at this moment, the palestinians have nothing to loose anyway.

[Morgoth]

Gandalf, you said that because the poorly armed Israelites beat a nation, the land becomes theirs. But if a poorly armed band of nomads beat a nation, it would very much suggest that the Canaanites were even more poorly armed, maybe not at all. Maybe they were peaceful. That would be like, well, America invading Luxembourg. But that's not going to happen. There's no oil there.

[Gandalf White]

I by no means imply that the Caananites were "well-armed" or even "well-staffed" with soldiers. However, they did have the advantage in numbers, as well as in arms. However, after the first couple of battles the Israelites of course took the Caananite weapons, thereby evening the "arms race." Also, the Caananites used to fight each other's city-states before Israel arrived, giving them the advantage, and nulling your argument that they were peaceful.
That would be like, well, America invading Luxembourg. But that's not going to happen. I suggest you find a less laughable and more applicable example. :rolleyes:

[Morgoth]

Ok, how about the USA and Iraq. Oh no, wait, that IS laughable!

[Gandalf White]

Ah, yes, now I see your point.
The poorly armed, nomadic Americans are going to take over the somewhat better armed, peace loving Iraquis. Oh, yeah, it's all falling into place. :p :rolleyes:

[Rogue666666]

HANG ON!

I started this thread and that is the only reason I am getting involved now. In fact, I'm currently taking a long break from every other thread.

But this is starting to degenerate into a confusing mess.

Gandalf white, though I mostly agree with what you say. You lower yourself to their level by trading comments the way you are.

NOW. Lets keep the topic on Israel, there are already enough threads on Iraq.

From what I've gathered, DGoeij, you believe that Israel should completely withdraw from the areas that supposedly belong to Palestine? I see, but even you said that nothing would stop the bombings. So what does Israel have to lose from bieng there?

The point is, withdrawing isn't going to help the Israeli people, and they know it. SO what's the solution?

Israel has made attempts at withdrawing and finding a common border. This had never worked. The palestinians are asking to much. They believe that Jerusalem should be theirs. This in the eyes of the Israeli people would be the same as Osama or Saddam asking for Washington D.C. And two groups of people who carry such hatred for eachother will never be able to live in the same city in peace. Why? Becuase everytime an Israeli or a Palestinian child throws a rock at eachother another conflict will explode.

So would you please like to give me a different solution?

Finally, that whole thing about the U.S respecting the United Nations is bull. Already the U.N accomplishes almost nothing. If the U.S were to remove support, it would completely collapse. Were do you think it gets over 70 % of its funding or most of its manpower?

One more thing. Morgoth, I live in Taiwan, which is VERY close to the borders of a communist country. China currently has missles, some of them nuclear, pointed at the country I live in. You said you were one of those " despised communists". I would like you to move to China, live there for approxamitly fifty years under their goverment, and I gurantee you would be a hardcore republican by the time you got out of there. OR do you think having all your personal freedoms and rights ripped away from you would be fun? :D

[Morgoth]

I sympathise with you, Rogue666666, but your situation isn't due to Communist ideals. It is caused by poor leaders of China. On saying that, however, I visisted China for two weeks in October, and I found many people completely satisfied with the government that leads them. But I still sympathise.

[Gandalf White]

Yes, Rogue, I'm sorry for getting away from the subject, but the reason was as Morgoth found he couldn't out-debate me he kept switching from subject to subject, and finally stopped answering! :D :p
On Israel. There will never be peace, ever. The Israelis will never give up the land. The Arabs will never be able to force Israel out, by violence or otherwise. That's pretty much the end of it. :(

[Rogue666666]

I KNOW this Gandalf.

But try to look at it from their perspective, instead of just the Christian one. Imagine what the situation looks like to someone who doesn't know what the Bible says about the situation. To someone like that the situation has to have a solution, or there will be continued voilence for the forseeable future.

And Morgoth, visiting a country is by no means the same as living there. The people of China are satisfied with what they have because they have NEVER seen anything better, and their goverment makes sure of it. When millions died of famine, they still thought that they were living in the best country in the world.

I agree that there is a corrupt leader. But name a communist leader who WASN'T corrupt.

(Sorry for getting off subject) :D

[Dengen-Goroth]

Gandalf, I meant the United States of America provides the majority of its foreign aid to Israel, followed by Egypt.